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slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 07:29
Does Imperial, Tau, or Eldar have POW camp?

Seems like Tau might have. I'm not sure about the rest. Kind of hard to believe that a galaxy war has no POW camp.

Leman Russ
06-08-2008, 07:34
Guard: They have no time nor the resoursed for PoW's. You're either a heretic (in which case you'll be shot), a traitor (in which case you'll be shot) or an alien (in which case you'll be shot)

Marines: They are used for very specific missions that generally killing everything in sight. They may occasionaly capture someone alive if they have to (see Dark Angels for example)

Tau: Are a bunch of wimps anyway :p

Hellebore
06-08-2008, 07:55
The Imperium shoots aliens on sight, only in exceptional circumstances would they take xenos prisoners (like perhaps an ethereal to bargain for a planet or captured troops).

The tau definitely have POWs and continually offer them a place in their empire.

The eldar would only capture aliens if they had a specific purpose in mind.

POWs generally only come about because someone has surrendered to someone else; surrender is generally not an option in 40k and anyone that does is most likely to be shot anyway (by their side or the enemy).

Orks take slaves not POWs, tyranids eat everyone, and necrons aren't much better.

Hellebore

Iuris
06-08-2008, 08:04
I think all sides would have facilities for housing prisoners. Even if only until the mass grave is dug.

slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 10:09
I agree. According to the fluff, they kill each other on sight. However, I just can't picture IG actually round up all the xeno from one planet that they just won and kill all males, females, and little uns.

Say if Earth is planet X and all the human are xeno, we look like we are, but have green skins and white hair. Imperial want planet X for it's natural resource for future Agroworld.

Imperial would land on Planet X and kill all 5 billion or so of us? wow, Imperial are freaking evil! EVIL!

totgeboren
06-08-2008, 10:52
if the population have green skin and white hair, they will all be rounded up and executed. It sucks to be a xenos when the humans comes around.

If the population is human, they might be put in indoctrination camp. Repopulating a planet would take a whole lot of resources, so its more cost-effective to just re-educate the population to follow the imperial creed.

Hellebore
06-08-2008, 10:57
I agree. According to the fluff, they kill each other on sight. However, I just can't picture IG actually round up all the xeno from one planet that they just won and kill all males, females, and little uns.

Say if Earth is planet X and all the human are xeno, we look like we are, but have green skins and white hair. Imperial want planet X for it's natural resource for future Agroworld.

Imperial would land on Planet X and kill all 5 billion or so of us? wow, Imperial are freaking evil! EVIL!

Well that's because you're a rational human being and the Imperium is not.

They completely believe in the superiority and manifest destiny of humanity, afterall, they have the Emperor and aliens don't.

It's like Christians and Hindus, both believe their religion to be the one true religion. No matter how nice they are to each other both are convinced theirs is the true religion.

The Imperium sees aliens as animals, just as the nazis saw the jews. Why feel bad about killing children and parents of animals? We slaughter lambs all the time without feeling guilty about it. The Ecclesiarchy preach anti tolerance and the burning of mutants and aliens continuously. Children are brought up from a young age to believe humans to be perfect and aliens nothing but monsters worthy of only destruction.

Trying to apply your own morality to the situation won't work because the 41st millennium is a very inhospitable place.

TheOverlord
06-08-2008, 11:10
No, I honestly don't see anyone outside of the Tau and Eldar taking PoWs... slaves, for sure, but not PoW's. The Imperium would kill everyone, nuke them, virus bomb every inch of land they possess, and blow up the whole *******' planet if it called for it.

Hellebore is, of course, right. The Imperium is a terrible, terrible dark place of much grimness and dark...ness. It is no happy sunshine land of mercy and tolerance, it is a place where mankind is bound to servitude in the strictest of sense, because if they are not then they are extinct. They take no prisoners, and expect no quarter, and would gladly run away if they weren't so sure their own side wouldn't just shoot them in the face the minute one of them started to even turn around. Fear is the rule of the Imperium.

Delicious Soy
06-08-2008, 11:13
I think in the case of humanity POW camps are really only for human on human conflicts. The Imperium's view is that all humanity belongs under the guidance of the throne and i think that there is plenty of evidence of the idea of 'compliance' still exists, the MAcharian crusades for example. Logic would dictate that even the Ecclesiarchy would want to bring errant humans into the fold rather than exterminate them.

The only other major players likely to have POW camps are to my mind, Chaos, Orks and Tau. The first two because they have need for slaves and captives while the Tau want them for indoctrination purposes, and seem to allow prisoners to live on the proviso they accept the 'Greater Good'

Gdolkin
06-08-2008, 13:12
The surviving population of Armageddon after the First War. The Inquisition rounded them all up and shipped them to forced labour camps, sterilised them, and worked them all to death, vexing Logan Grimnar.. Not exactly a PoW situation as we conceive them, but a relevant example I feel.

Move Fast Hit Low
06-08-2008, 13:19
Aye as Gdolkin said, seems its common practice for the Imperium to make slave labor work camps and work them until they're dead.

Tau have they're brain washing camps if im not mistaken.

Sai-Lauren
06-08-2008, 13:30
Hmm,

Imperium: Non-humans would likely be interrogated/ tortured for everything they know, then either executed or sent for experimentation/vivisection. Same for obvious heretics/mutants.

If it's a rebellious imperial world, then anyone captured will probably be incarcerated and judged as to their reasons - if they were simply duped by their superior officers, then they could be released, but maybe only to the penal legions for failing in their duties.

And if it's a non-imperial world being brought into the fold, then showing mercy to prisoners may help make them complient much more quickly, and reduce the numbers of troops and Arbites that they need in the short-medium term (winning hearts and minds).

Eldar: If they're fighting another craftworld, then they could work on a system of parole, so long as they agree not to try and escape or aid their side, they could well be given comfortable accomodation until the conflict ends or they're exchanged back.
Also, non-eldar could be treated fairly because some Farseers visions have determined that doing so will aid the Eldar in the future.

Or they could just slaughter everyone, you never know with the Eldar.

Tau - yes.

Necrons - no.

Tyrannids - possibly. There are probably aspects of their enemies natures that they can't really get from just absorbing them, so they could well have some enemies in their versions of labs, putting them under different stimuli and seeing how they react.

Dark Eldar and Orks - yes, but for slaves etc.

Chaos - somewhere between the Imperium and DE/Orks.

Hellebore
06-08-2008, 13:32
Are you a POW if you are turned into a slave? I'm thinking of the modern definition of prisoner of war. Aren't prisoner's of war supposed to have specific rights? If they don't get those rights can they still be considered POWs or are they now slaves? I'm not sure how the definition of POW actually works (hasn't America effectively circumvented this convention by saying that 'terrorists' aren't soldiers and thus not subject to the POW laws?).

The Armageddon incident is worse because the people put in those camps were the GOOD GUYS. Their own commanders put them in those camps. I don't think they can be POWs when their own commanders did it to them...

Hellebore

DapperAnarchist
06-08-2008, 13:56
The Japanese in WW2 had POW camps, where the prisoners were worked to death, and worse. The Russians had similar things (and the original Soviet Gulags were POW camps, of the Russian Civil War.). What else... the British had very rough POW camps during the Boer War, the American camps for the internment of foreigners during WW2 perhaps... So one can easily be a true POW and be really really badly treated. The idea of supporting POWs and treating them well, no matter what, is a pretty recent one. Don't mention chivalry, that only counted if you were as rich as the guy who captured you.

The events following the First War for Armageddon were standard policy for all worlds attacked by a Daemonic force. Such taint cannot be allowed to survive. Only inducted Malleus and Astartes forces can be allowed to survive after conflict with Daemons, and Astartes are brainwashed to make them forget. And I'm not sure about inducted Malleus troops...

Sai-Lauren
06-08-2008, 14:01
Are you a POW if you are turned into a slave? I'm thinking of the modern definition of prisoner of war. Aren't prisoner's of war supposed to have specific rights? If they don't get those rights can they still be considered POWs or are they now slaves? I'm not sure how the definition of POW actually works (hasn't America effectively circumvented this convention by saying that 'terrorists' aren't soldiers and thus not subject to the POW laws?).


Without wishing to get into the politics and rights/wrongs of either of the situations:-
1) Japanese PoW camps in WW2. On a lesser scale, I think most nations in WW2 used PoWs for certain labour tasks as well - although it may have been on a volunteer basis.
2) They're termed "Illegal Combatants".

There is the Geneva Convention, which states things like fair treatment. But I don't think the Imperium (actually any race in the 40k universe) would even consider such a thing, after all, it is pretty much survival of the species that's at stake.

Col.Gravis
06-08-2008, 14:05
What else... the British had very rough POW camps during the Boer War

Actually they were one of the first recogised examples of Concentration Camps, they wer'nt simply for "PoW's" in the classic sense, which I think actually is more likely what your going to see in Imperial vs Rebellious (Human) Planet situations, that or chuck em all in a good 'ol fashion Penal Legion as part of operation 'Meatshield' for the next campaign.

Tau likewise would run similar camps for those who did not submit to the great good.

Orks & certain Chaos factions, Slave Labour Camps.

Dark Eldar, well we know what they do with prisoners.

I can't help but too recal a glimpse of a memmory where the Necrons used forced labour, can't think where the hell I might have got that from though.

DapperAnarchist
06-08-2008, 14:16
its from the Farseer's vision of the Galaxy under the rule of the C'Tan - a bit of fluff I find terrifying.

Yeah, the Boer War concentration camps kinda straddle the line. However, I think the Imperium would be bloody evil at times - think they wouldn't have the sort of camps that appeared during the ethnic cleansing wars of the Balkans? I'm not going to describe them - but if you want to give up hope for humanity, read Robert Fisk's news articles about them.

Adra
06-08-2008, 18:24
Well POW can be used for so many things like slaves or for experiments. They can also be made into tasty treats. Mmmm Tau Bugers...greater taste and good for you ;)

Ravensgard
06-08-2008, 18:45
Don't forget that some radicals of the Ordo Xenos take living xenos prisoners and even try to communicate with them (such a heresy;))
Anybody ever read the book Xenology ?? Here even the Necrons had a human prisoner (or for a short term at least)

ironcurtin117
06-08-2008, 18:50
If you're a guardsman who gets captured and eventually released/ freed, you're shot, just like that. There is a strick no surrender, no survivors policy in 40k, but many aliens do take prisoners.

I remember a short story about some ork prisoners busting out to imp, lines only to get offed upon reaching "safety".
Long story short,
Humies = NO
Chaos, Dark Eldar = If they feel like it
Eldar = let the vermin run
Tau = yay more converts!
Orks, Nids, Necrons = yum

Col.Gravis
06-08-2008, 19:20
I remember a short story about some ork prisoners busting out to imp, lines only to get offed upon reaching "safety".


Well contact with aliens is a crime ;)

olmsted
06-08-2008, 20:06
actually i would believe that in interhuman wars pow camps would be common. if the world turned to a rebellious governor or prince the imperium would swoop in kill the desenters and give the world a chance. in a world that was never part of the imperium you have a choice surrender or war. earth now would hopefully surrender to the imperium. nothing to fight those battleships.

in case of a surrender a governor would be appointed and priests and munitorium adepts would invade our world and stream line everythng for the better use of the imperium.


and in the case the planet fights back were invaded by adeptus astartes and imperial guard until we surrender. then those that fight still will be hunted by guard units and the rest of the world will become compliant sooner or later.


on the note of armaggedon it was the inquisition who did it. they even made the officers into the camps.
pissed logan off bigtime. good thing the inquisition and the munitorium wont touch him or any of the dozens of space wolves companies out there

also terrorist do not count as prisoners of war due to the fact that they are not counted as soldiers by the geneva convention. if they want that protection then they need uniforms and other criteria the geneva convention states.

mattmanforever
06-08-2008, 23:16
Not to be "that guy", but regarding the Tau, they do in fact take prisoners of war, but I always imagined they were offered a place in the Greater Good, and if they refused, they would likely be bargained back to the opposite force for diplomatic gains. The Tau are keen on making treaties and such post-war agreements, and the Imperium does in fact treat with the tau, if only to temporarily buy time until they can redirect resources towards the conflict (approximately occurring at a quarter until never). This of course doesn't extend to races which are considered impossible of embracing the Greater Good, but these same races probably wouldn't be interested in a prisoner exchange anyway.

The idea of POWs being put in forced labor camps just doesn't jive. The Earth caste is proud of their roles as laborers, and any labor they are disinclined to do is handled by drones, which require less feeding and upkeep than a p.o.w. camp, unless the prisoners are treated in an incredibly poor manner, which I don't see the Tau doing, having a considerable amount of respect for life and a fairly remarkable sense of honour in a galaxy where chivalry and honor just get you shot in the back.

Holy_Combat
07-08-2008, 00:19
In Mallues of the Eisenhorn trilogy there was the parade where the POWs of a system purged were marched for the loyal subjects to jeer at. It also had 31 alpha plus psykers being marched, although it ended very badly.

Talos
07-08-2008, 00:43
In Storm of Iron the Iron Warriors take POW and then make them march towards the IG fortress so they can see the range of there guns :)
Also in one of the grey knight books some Chaos Traitors / things take loads of people and make them fight in games including orks (really liked that book Daemon world as out of all the Lords/Daemons/ Princes etc only one was CSM so it showed that not all traitors turn to spawns and only csm can be Princes or strong).

GodofWarTx
07-08-2008, 10:10
Well that's because you're a rational human being and the Imperium is not.

They completely believe in the superiority and manifest destiny of humanity, afterall, they have the Emperor and aliens don't.

It's like Christians and Hindus, both believe their religion to be the one true religion. No matter how nice they are to each other both are convinced theirs is the true religion.

The Imperium sees aliens as animals, just as the nazis saw the jews. Why feel bad about killing children and parents of animals? We slaughter lambs all the time without feeling guilty about it. The Ecclesiarchy preach anti tolerance and the burning of mutants and aliens continuously. Children are brought up from a young age to believe humans to be perfect and aliens nothing but monsters worthy of only destruction.

Trying to apply your own morality to the situation won't work because the 41st millennium is a very inhospitable place.

I disagree with the above assessment as i dont feel its completely accurate of the relationship humanity has with other races. As humanity expanded into the stars, there were like the Tau in the sense they formed alliances and ruled a vast technological empire. It all came crashing down, and in a series of stunning betrayals, humanity was betrayed and preyed upon. Humanity during the last days of the DAoT was pretty grim, teetering rather close on final collapse and extinction. As the great crusade expanded outward, lots of humanity had to be freed from alien overlords, and so i would say there is very good justification for humanity to never trust xenos again considering they were almost driven to extiction by xenos who smelled blood in the water of the weakened interstellar empire of man. The imperium refuses to allow that to happen again.

It took centuries for the french and english to reconcile differences after all the conflicts between the kingdoms/nations. Even today french historians argue that the woes of the Great War on the Western Front were caused by the english, and visa versa. The point is there is precidence for deep ingrained feelings of distrust, and its not unjustified by looking in the past between humanity and xenos. I would say the imperium does not view aliens as animals per say, but as potential enslavers and agents of weakness that need to be kept at bay where they can not sink their claws in the vulnerable aspects of humanity.

In regards to POWs, i would imagine the Imperium uses indoctrinization camps as well in terms of "liberating" new worlds or worlds who rebel without detection of chaos or heretical influences. After all, the imperium expands and is still reclaiming parts of the once-vast human interstellar empire. I would imagine the eldar would have "inventive" prisons, like leaving their prisoners on a barely hospitable world and sneeringly told to fend for themselves. They wouldnt be given the luxury of spending time in any eldar craftworld or presence.

Adra
07-08-2008, 10:19
There is always going to be a need for camps of some sort when fighting different foes. The imperium may be liberating a planet from a corrupt government that has taken control of the PDF but the overall populace may be ignorant of the crime and get placed in camps until liberation is finished with. I can see CSM other chaos forces being big on POW camps. You always need a new slave or blood offering or something.

Norminator
07-08-2008, 10:31
I remember a short story about some ork prisoners busting out to imp, lines only to get offed upon reaching "safety".

In Imperial Armour 3 some high ranking Guardsmen is taken prisoner by the Tau, but manages to escape and trek through the desert before being picked up. It's then mentioned that for his loyalty to the Imperium they made him a servitor :rolleyes:

Duckdude
07-08-2008, 10:57
Dark eldar takes prisoners....Only so they can torture them but still prisoners non the less

Hellebore
07-08-2008, 11:21
I disagree with the above assessment as i dont feel its completely accurate of the relationship humanity has with other races. As humanity expanded into the stars, there were like the Tau in the sense they formed alliances and ruled a vast technological empire. It all came crashing down, and in a series of stunning betrayals, humanity was betrayed and preyed upon. Humanity during the last days of the DAoT was pretty grim, teetering rather close on final collapse and extinction. As the great crusade expanded outward, lots of humanity had to be freed from alien overlords, and so i would say there is very good justification for humanity to never trust xenos again considering they were almost driven to extiction by xenos who smelled blood in the water of the weakened interstellar empire of man. The imperium refuses to allow that to happen again.

It took centuries for the french and english to reconcile differences after all the conflicts between the kingdoms/nations. Even today french historians argue that the woes of the Great War on the Western Front were caused by the english, and visa versa. The point is there is precidence for deep ingrained feelings of distrust, and its not unjustified by looking in the past between humanity and xenos. I would say the imperium does not view aliens as animals per say, but as potential enslavers and agents of weakness that need to be kept at bay where they can not sink their claws in the vulnerable aspects of humanity.

In regards to POWs, i would imagine the Imperium uses indoctrinization camps as well in terms of "liberating" new worlds or worlds who rebel without detection of chaos or heretical influences. After all, the imperium expands and is still reclaiming parts of the once-vast human interstellar empire. I would imagine the eldar would have "inventive" prisons, like leaving their prisoners on a barely hospitable world and sneeringly told to fend for themselves. They wouldnt be given the luxury of spending time in any eldar craftworld or presence.

I did say the Imperium, and indeed this thread is about the Imperium, not the Golden Age of man.

Even then their entire empire collapsed due to internal strife - psyker plagues.

They also took planets from aliens during those times. You don't think that humanity got so spread across the galaxy without taking someone else's home first do you?

No matter how nice you are, when you need more space for your species you do what it takes. Alien empires would have taken human worlds, but humans would have taken alien worlds as well.

The Eldar empire spread across the entire galaxy. The maiden worlds lie along the old eldar empire, and you can see those along the outer rim of the galaxy in the eldar section of the 5th ed rulebook.

The eldar empire still existed when humanity went to the stars, it only collapsed around 30,000 so for more than 15,000 years humans were spreading across a galaxy already controlled by the eldar.

There were also many many other alien races out there that weren't orks. They were older than humanity and had travelled the galaxy for longer. How is it with all these preexisting alien empires did humanity not once take another peoples' planet from them?

How is it that humanity was only the prey in these situations?

Those aliens may have reacted hostily toward human colonisation, but when someone moves into your backyard you kick them out. There is no galactic code of brotherhood that says you let other people have your planets. YOU need them, so they can't have them.

Humanity was no more morally righteous than any other alien in the galaxy when they spread across it, so to say that they were exclusively the victims is a pretty biased perspective.

One could say the eldar are 'entirely justified' in their position on humans as humanity has shown time and time again they become corrupted and destroy the worlds they inhabit. Thus it is justified that the eldar exterminate them.

Hellebore

GodofWarTx
08-08-2008, 05:03
I never stated humanity was the only ones persecuted. Surely the cycle of conquest has been repeated for eons. But, in regards to how humanity views aliens, their own perspective is that they were decieved and should never trust that which is not kin.

I think the expansion of humanity in the Golden Age brought humanity into direct conflict with aliens, of course. I believe its even referenced as "the first alien wars" as humanity stretched into the stars.

And i would say the actions of aliens preying on mankind during the DAoT directly influenced the current Imperium's stance on aliens. It was such events that brought the Emperor out to directly guide humanity after all, and im sure the big guy didnt have too many kind words to say about alien species.

There is a difference between viewing a xenos like a lamb to slaughter (as you referenced) and an enemy which could very well betray you. Last i checked, our ancestors didnt have any great wars against the vast lamb hordes. Though the picture of that happening is pretty funny =)