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jma037
02-11-2005, 22:40
In the WH40K world, normal people get to have a soul. A warp persence, right? During what delevopmental stage does one gain a soul? At conception? Brith? If I clone someone and harvest their stem cells when they are a few weeks old, do they get to have a soul?

Discuss!

Xisor
02-11-2005, 23:27
As soon as the umbilical cord is cut and you stop being 'one' with another human?

This'd probably explain why there's such a problem with clones in the Imperium, eg Afriel Strain, they never had the umbilical cords, they never got seperated properly). They just don't feel right...

Xisor

Khaine's Messenger
02-11-2005, 23:43
I like to use the Liber Chaotica definition of a "soul"...the interaction of physical being with warp presence; a soul is neither and both.

Whenever your braincells start to fire is a good ballpark guesstimate, as the manifestation of psionic abilities, at the very least, seems to have a lot to do with certain areas of the cerebrum in some individuals, and one of its first organizing tasks could be for its geometry to build up a "link" to the warp like a compiling program asking for memory to please to make room for something, dunno what, but reserve me some space, and I might need more later (as, in my firm opinion, a soul can grow or whither like a man ;) )....

Although Xisor makes an interesting point. The idea that you might share a part of a soul with your mother is interesting. It has some "mitochondrial" allusions with it and even fits somewhat with the Ordo Hydras' plan for how the Hydra would propagate. Never mind Afriel Strain guardsmen...this has interesting implications for defining the "vat grown blanks" Eisenhorn mentions circa Malleus and for, say, vat-grown servitors. Of course, one also wonders if actual proximity has anything to do with it. The Imperium wouldn't be below simply using artificial insemination and then blowing off the mothers just to solve this "problem" (as the Afriel Strain guardsmen are noted for having). Then again, it might simply never have occured to them.

DantesInferno
02-11-2005, 23:46
I'd say reaching a state of consciousness would be the threshold for it. I think its pretty clear that non-conscious animals like cattle don't have souls, and so it has to be a better test than cutting the umbilical cord. What about some hypothetical race of conscious beings (with souls) in the 40k universe which could be born like fish (ie externally of their parent)?

Minister
02-11-2005, 23:49
Lower order lifeforms, such as animals, Tau and plants, do in fact have a soul, they are merly monumentally under-developed compared to humans and the like.

Khaine's Messenger
03-11-2005, 00:16
Hmm....it could be possible that one's soul is "conceived" by oneself, but that its early stages of development are encouraged by such close proximity. It's also possible that the "warp presence" has simply always been, and that an individuated warp presence does not so much come into being as mirror the development of consciousness in the matterium; in other words, "unconscious" matter does not have a "soul" as such because its physical self is "unconscious." For conscious beings and some animals (say, these (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/creature-feature/5/)) , a specialized organ or network of organs develop (perhaps as a secondary, "unintended" effect) to take advantage of sensitivity to the warp much as there are some popular theories about certain animals utilizing magnetic fields to guide themselves in migratory patterns. So a soul (whether one argues in kind or magnitude) is the popular name for an esoteric outgrowth of natural processes (the bridge between or summation of physical self and warp-self).

Kage2020
03-11-2005, 21:06
I rather like the self-conception idea since that is entirely in keeping with the 'fluff' (cf. WD127).

Kage

Sojourner
03-11-2005, 21:09
Always. At least, you have the coalescence of energy that you could call a nascent soul as a scion of your parent's the moment you're conceived.

It becomes a true soul the instant that a self-aware thought is made. It's not a discrete process, though.

Kage2020
03-11-2005, 21:12
Nope, definitely not. And, indeed, the racial differentiation is explained in the aforementioned article as well. Although it might be WD105, not 127.

Kage

BaronDG
04-11-2005, 07:52
You have a soul from conception. Since clones don't have a conception they don't have a soul...

DantesInferno
04-11-2005, 09:31
Why would conception along the lines of sexual reproduction be somehow privileged? Surely it is conceivable that there could be a sentient race which could reproduce artificially or asexually whilst still being considered to have souls. IMO its definately the presence of consciousness is the leading factor in determining whether one's warp presence can be termed a soul or not.

ThorOdensson
04-11-2005, 10:40
I can already see where this threads going to end up.

Khaine's Messenger
04-11-2005, 16:14
Why would conception along the lines of sexual reproduction be somehow privileged?

It wouldn't. Insofar as the only requirements for a "soul" are the interaction of consciousness and warp presence, the only difference between sexual, asexual, artificial, etc. "souls" would be differences of kind and magnitude brought about by the potential interaction of certain warp-sensitive biological (or even artificial) processes and their relative potency. That is, some souls will develop or come about somewhat differently in the absolute sense, even though they are all "defined" as the interaction of mind and essense and are basically the result of some degree of cognizance.

Just my thoughts.

jma037
04-11-2005, 18:30
In that case, does machine spirts have a warp presence if they are conscious?

Kage2020
04-11-2005, 22:15
Depends on what you think a 'machine spirit' is, I'm afraid. Interpretation runs the gamut from the attributed (i.e. animistic paradigm of the adeptus mechanicus), to material (various types of programmed intelligence up to Machine Intelligence), and the spiritual.

Kage

Robot 2000
04-11-2005, 22:39
or indeed my pet theory which is that they're an organic brain like a servitor, just wired up to a vehicle ;)

Here's a question then - do servitors have souls?

Kage2020
05-11-2005, 22:28
I've never been a fan of the 'organic brain' being incorporated, more so since it's too similar to Philip Siberrings ideas and finds little credence in the 'fluff' even though they do use biological components.

And as to servitors? Depends on the nature of the servitor in question. If they are 'transformed' from a human, then quite possibly so. If they are 'vat grown' and essentially a bioroid? Possibly not. It all depends on preference.

Kage

Hellebore
06-11-2005, 02:44
I've never been a fan of the 'organic brain' being incorporated, more so since it's too similar to Philip Siberrings ideas and finds little credence in the 'fluff' even though they do use biological components.

And as to servitors? Depends on the nature of the servitor in question. If they are 'transformed' from a human, then quite possibly so. If they are 'vat grown' and essentially a bioroid? Possibly not. It all depends on preference.

Kage


They do refer to organic components in the thunderhawk's Machine spirit in IA 2 regarding marine and inquisitor forces.

They do describe ALL living creatures as having a warp presence, even if not technically a soul. Even plants and insects. Maybe not bacteria, and probably not viruses- definitely not prions;)

Maybe a warp presence is created via the induction of electricity through organic components so only creatures with a nervous system have a warp presence.

then again, when is a soul a SOUL, and not a warp presence? at what threshhold do you say "this is a soul and that is a presence?"


If you get really picky, technically only those races with the ability to stay sentient after death would have souls (ie the eldar).

Of course if any warp presence counts as a soul, then EVERYTHING has a soul- dogs, cats, rats, grox, tyranids:eek:


There's a question- does the hive mind have a 'soul/collection of souls' or is the shadow in the warp a vacuum?

hellebore

Lord Balor
06-11-2005, 03:06
There's a question- does the hive mind have a 'soul/collection of souls' or is the shadow in the warp a vacuum?hellebore

I always thought that the Shadow of the Warp wasn't essentially a blacket over warpspace, but rather a complete and utter overload of it due to an insane amount of warp 'chatter' generated by the collective. The best example i can try to explain it with would be grabbing an electric fence. Your brain (The Casual Psyker) sends a minute electrical nerve signal telling your hand to grab the fence. Once you do, the muscles in your hands lock and you essentially lose control because the fence's electricity is overloading and overpowering any tiny signal you send in. This is how i see the Shadow of the warp cutting any real chance of safely utilising the Warp when in its presence. Then again, thats just my spin on it and it could just be one nastly little void of a blanket.

BaronDG
06-11-2005, 09:56
Good point, hellebore. Since we are humans we can safely say that we have souls (because the emperor protects!) and other beings have warp presences. Maybe the eldar had souls but they are lost to slaanesh or trapped in artificial constructs...

Kage2020
07-11-2005, 21:23
They do refer to organic components in the thunderhawk's Machine spirit in IA 2 regarding marine and inquisitor forces.
You would have noted that I mentioned that I said they were not 'brains' even if they utilised organic components?

Kage

starlight
07-11-2005, 21:28
I get my souls right after the body stops breathing. :D

Otherwise this is way to heavy and convoluted for my puny brain.