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polymphus
03-11-2005, 06:07
The frenzied rules state that a frenzied unit has to charge if there is an available target. What happens if due to the position of the enemy unit they have tro charge but wheel and thus the charge is failed? do they still have to take it?
Cheers
Poly

T10
03-11-2005, 08:55
Frenzy will not cause you to declare impossible charges.

If the situation may warrant a charge, measure first, then move. If the target does not flee then the frenzied unit *will* reach it.

-T10

Da GoBBo
03-11-2005, 19:19
Indeed, one very big plus about bein frenzied. Since you have to measure for bein in range anyway, there's no point in declaring in the first place (not when you have only one unit to charge). Don't declare, measure (your frenzied after all) and charge when in range. This will save you a possible failed charge and bring you in cc whenever possible.

This bein said, is this true? It smells a bit cheesy rulebending to me, but a think one can do it this way.

03-11-2005, 22:24
That certainly is true with frenzied units. However, it is potentially problematic if you have multiple charges to declare because units must charge in the order that charges are declared and the frenzied unit may get in the way of the other units etc. Frenzy is still very much a double edge sword, so not needing to declare a charge that may be out of range is a very minor advantage in the scheme of things.

SHEBL
07-11-2005, 14:27
Frenzy will not cause you to declare impossible charges.

If the situation may warrant a charge, measure first, then move. If the target does not flee then the frenzied unit *will* reach it.

-T10

A frenzied unit must declare a charge if any enemy units are within charge range NOT taking into account wheeling.(as the crow flies) If by wheeling it becomes a failed charge than it is simply that. Declaring a charge that is further than a given units charge distance is NOT an impossible charge simply an unwise charge. Failed charges due to wheeling etc. is the drawback to being frenzied.

Major Defense
07-11-2005, 14:47
Frenzy can just as easily be used as an advantage for your enemy. Baiting with skirmishers or fast cavalry to draw out and flee from a disadvantageous charge can turn the tables on you. My friends who come after me with frenzied units do so with burdensome caution and lots of screening.

SHEBL
07-11-2005, 14:50
Frenzy can just as easily be used as an advantage for your enemy. Baiting with skirmishers or fast cavalry to draw out and flee from a disadvantageous charge can turn the tables on you. My friends who come after me with frenzied units do so with burdensome caution and lots of screening.

Absolutely true. Gnoblars can be quite handy in baiting a frenzied unit for a flanked bull charge.

Crazy Harborc
07-11-2005, 21:16
Yesterday.......his Witchelves charged.....my bait fled, the WEs slowed to a walk/normal move. I declared MY charge at the open flank........Then the skies darkened, fate turned her back.......I was 3/4 of an inch short:cries:

T10
07-11-2005, 23:37
A frenzied unit must declare a charge if any enemy units are within charge range NOT taking into account wheeling.(as the crow flies) If by wheeling it becomes a failed charge than it is simply that. Declaring a charge that is further than a given units charge distance is NOT an impossible charge simply an unwise charge. Failed charges due to wheeling etc. is the drawback to being frenzied.

I believe you are mistaken on this point. The Frenzy rules simply dictate that a charge must be declared if the Frenzied unit has enemy units within it's charge move. Wheeling is typically a necessity in order to bring the charging unit into contact with the enemy, and it is a part of the charge move.

I see nothing to support your claim that maneuvering (and by extension: terrain and obstacles) will trigger a charge that cannot be completed successfully.

The trigger for the frenzied charge is that if the unit *can* then it *must*.

-T10

Festus
08-11-2005, 09:52
Hi

A frenzied unit must declare a charge if any enemy units are within charge range NOT taking into account wheeling.(as the crow flies) If by wheeling it becomes a failed charge than it is simply that. Declaring a charge that is further than a given units charge distance is NOT an impossible charge simply an unwise charge. Failed charges due to wheeling etc. is the drawback to being frenzied.
This is not true:

Charge range is just that: The range in which you *can* charge anyone.
It is, however, not the distance equal to your doubled basic move in a straight line.

So if the enemy cannot be charged, because he is too far away due to wheeling, this is out of your charge range. Thus no frenzied charge occurs.

Greetings
Festus

Crazy Harborc
08-11-2005, 20:22
I agree. with the above two experts. Line of sight is the bottom line. No line of sight would mean no charge to declare.

SHEBL
09-11-2005, 15:29
Hi

This is not true:

Charge range is just that: The range in which you *can* charge anyone.
It is, however, not the distance equal to your doubled basic move in a straight line.

Greetings
Festus

I am not familiar with the term "charge range", however, charge move is clearly defined in the BRB. Charge move is "When troops charge, they move twice as fast as normal, representing a run or gallop, and this DOUBLE speed move is called a charge move" pg. 46. (Cont'd) "for example, troops with a normal move of four inches per turn have a 'charge move' of eight inches."
Now the rules determining a frenzied charge are quite clear as well, "Measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any frenzied troops (ie. within the units charge move (defined above) and in their normal charge arc) pg. 84 BRB.

THEREFORE, A frenzied unit that is twice their basic movement or less, from an enemy unit and within LOS "MUST" charge. Terrain or wheeling is not mentioned and clearly not meant to be taken into account. Further whether a frenzied unit "can" charge (T-10) is never mentioned, nor is wheeling mentioned as a necassary factor to consider in the charge move.

T10
09-11-2005, 15:55
The Frenzy rules make no mention of line of sight either, which is a requirement to declare any charge in the first place. Do you think it should be conveniently disregarded in the case of frenzied troops?

There is actually a restriction on charges that state that you cannot declare a charge against a unit that you clearly cannot reach. In the case of charges triggered by frenzy you *do* measure before the charge is declared. Thus it is VERY clear wether the target unit is within reach or not.

-T10

Festus
09-11-2005, 15:55
Hi

You are wrong, there, I am afraid:
As you yourself pointed out, this *double speed MOVE* is a charge move, not this double *distance* move.

You may move double when you charge, so your charge reach is everything that you can *reach* while moving up to double your M statistic in inches.

You do not have to declare a charge that you will fail, not even with frenzied troops.

Greetings
Festus

blurred
09-11-2005, 15:59
THEREFORE, A frenzied unit that is twice their basic movement or less, from an enemy unit and within LOS "MUST" charge. Terrain or wheeling is not mentioned and clearly not meant to be taken into account.

Sorry, but this just can't be the case. This would lead into very strange situations like units colliding with impassable terrain (because only on wheel is allowed) and at least IMHO it would hinder the usability of frenzied troops too much. Frenzy forces unit to charge only if the unit is able to reach it's target.

Da GoBBo
09-11-2005, 17:07
Guess its quoting time:

THEREFORE, A frenzied unit that is twice their basic movement or less, from an enemy unit and within LOS "MUST" charge. Terrain or wheeling is not mentioned and clearly not meant to be taken into account.

I think it's quite(?) abvious that GW will not repeat itself with explained rulings when describing a new rule (frenzy). Normal rules allways apply unless otherwise noted. That bein said. I found a great contradiction in the same respons.

"Measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any frenzied troops (ie. within the units charge move (defined above) and in their normal charge arc) pg. 84 BRB"

You quoted this from the rulebook right? It clearly says charge reach, not range. Theres a great difference here cause range is just a distance and could be open for debate in this case (I actually think GW means exactly the same, but still). Reach on the other is more then that and includes every wheel and weird manouvering needed to complete a charge in this case.

SHEBL
09-11-2005, 20:51
The Frenzy rules make no mention of line of sight either, which is a requirement to declare any charge in the first place. Do you think it should be conveniently disregarded in the case of frenzied troops?

There is actually a restriction on charges that state that you cannot declare a charge against a unit that you clearly cannot reach. In the case of charges triggered by frenzy you *do* measure before the charge is declared. Thus it is VERY clear wether the target unit is within reach or not.

-T10

1) Read the book. A frenzied charge is still a charge in which normal LOS applies. I never contradicted that.
2) Please quote the rule that states the restrictions on charges to which you are referring.

-Festus
1) Please quote any rules that apply to your statement of "charge reach". In the BRB it defines it as I have already quoted as "within the units charge move" and charge move is defined as double their movement.

-DaGabbo
1) Again Charge reach is clearly defined as previously quoted. Charge reach is defined as a charge move, and charge move is defined as double their base movement.

I appreciate your interpretations and arguements but it is quite difficult to see your point of view when you do not use any evidence from any book to back up your statements. I have quoted directly from the book and cited page numbers.

Da GoBBo
10-11-2005, 09:13
The reason your not finding very much quotes here is because you want us to quote the entire movement section. Like I said. Bein in charge range is explained in this section and includes wheeling, its just that simple. Every variant on this charge move (like frenzycharging) follows the same rules unless otherwise noted, which means: if the book doesn't tell you to do otherwise, do as you would normally do it. In a normal situation, when looking whether a unit is whithin range, you include every wheel your gonna make. The frenzy rule does not tell you to do it any other way and therefor you should not.

Festus
10-11-2005, 12:53
hi

-Festus
1) Please quote any rules that apply to your statement of "charge reach". In the BRB it defines it as I have already quoted as "within the units charge move" and charge move is defined as double their movement.
As you asked me personaly, I will bother to reapat myself here:

Charge Move is is a Move, not a distance.
The distance of the Charge Move may be up to the double of the unit's normal move (exception: Flyers while actually flying)

The rules DO NOT state that a Charge Move is a distance double to the unit's basic movement, but that it is a MOVE that can be up to this distance.

Or to quote yourself here:
this DOUBLE speed move is called a charge move

It will not change, no matter how much you want it to.

Festus

Da GoBBo
10-11-2005, 22:07
Exactally. And bein within chargerange means you can succesfully complete that move if ones wishes to (or, in the case of frenzy, means you MUST complete that move, even if you do not wish them to).

T10
11-11-2005, 23:49
1) Read the book. A frenzied charge is still a charge in which normal LOS applies. I never contradicted that.
2) Please quote the rule that states the restrictions on charges to which you are referring.

1) You claim that maneuvering and terrain is disregarded when it comes charging with frenzied unit since mention of these factors is omitted. By extension, all factors common to charging that are not explicitly stated are disregarded.

This is clearly not the case and indicates that you point is essentially flawed.

2) "When the player declares a charge he must be reasonably sure that his unit will reach his target." This is in the appendix where the text deals with awkward charges.

Though not part of the basic rules for declaring a charge, the debate on the point surely qualifies this as "awkward".

And if that isn't enough, I would like to direct you towards the final paragraph of the Declare Charges section:

"When declaring a charge you must also take into account any terrain that might slow you down, as descrived later. Deciding wether to charge or not calls for a good judgement of distances!"

I am sure this may well be read as a friendly warning from the designers rather than an actual rule. Even so it indicates that distance between the two units are not the only thing to be considered when declaring a charge.

-T10

Da GoBBo
14-11-2005, 13:27
Although I agree with you there might be flaw in your reasoning. frenzi&#235;ng has nothing to do with declaring a charge. Particular rules for chargedeclarations do therefor not apply.

T10
14-11-2005, 16:51
Yes, there is a subtle difference between declaring a charge with a unit of Frenzied troops and having them go off automatically, at least as far as the rules are phrased.

However, the fact remains that the Frenzy section does not define a whole new set of rules related the compulsory charge. It merely states that if the unit can reach* its target then the unit will charge.

The normal way to determine wether a unit can reach the target unit or not is by measuring and taking into account maneuvers and terrain.

The issue being debated is of course how you determine "reach". SHEBL proposes that the charge reach does not take into account terrain or maneuvers (these are not mentioned in the Frenzy rules section). The term "as the crow flies" was brought up.

However, there are other factors to charging that are not covered by the rules: line of sight and the possibility of actually reaching the target. Due to the compulsory nature of the frenzied charge, the distance is always measured to determine the "go/no-go" of the charge. Thus there is no uncertainty.

I believe it has been clearly demonstrated that Frenzied units are only compelled to charge units they can actually reach.

-T10