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TCB
08-08-2008, 08:12
Ok, so power weapons can cut through armour like a hot knife through butter, right? So one would presume that in a scenario where Soldier A armed with a regular sword blocks Soldier B's attack with a power sword, the power sword would cut through the regular sword resulting in dead Soldier A.

Now, lets replace Soldier A's Sword with a power Sword identical to Soldier B's, for the sake of the argument Soldier A and B are just as agile and strong as each other. Soldier A and B both strike at the same time in exactly the same way with exactly the same amount of force and their power weapons collide.
What happens do the power swords cut through each other at the same time or do they both remain intact?

Poseidal
08-08-2008, 08:25
The power weapon rules are just for simplicity.

In previous editions of 40k and Necromunda it was S5 with a -3 save modifier. In the roleplaying game Dark Heresy and Inquisitor it is basically a more potent sword rather than a magical armour circumventing sword.

Faustburg
08-08-2008, 08:31
In the Inqisitor game, weapons (and shields) had a 75% risk of breaking when parrying or parried by a power weapon, unless they had some sort of powerfield too.

So other power weapons, shock-, force- or deamon weapons were safe.

Koryphaus
08-08-2008, 08:47
Think of them as Lightsabres from Star Wars - they cut through anything, but have no trouble parrying another Lightsabre.

Incidently, didn't Eisenhorn or somebody actually have a Lightsabre?

Norminator
08-08-2008, 08:49
Incidently, didn't Eisenhorn or somebody actually have a Lightsabre?

Yes, although it was described as a special, archaic power weapon that instead of having a blade simply projected a rod of energy from the hilt.

The Anarchist
08-08-2008, 09:59
i think its best to look at a power weapon on a model for this theory to work frist, a powerweapon has a metal core and it then has something generate a force over that metal. so if it is in truth a metal weapon at the core, when to power weapons of equal strength meet they cancel out each others "power" part of the weapon, and so its jsut the same as smacking any two non-power swords together.

jsut my two cents.

ChrisMurray
08-08-2008, 12:27
I agree with the above post. It's a normal sword that has a small energy field progected around it's blade (power source is in the hilt of the sword). The two swords would therefore be smashing one energy field against the other and would be effectly be like hitting two normal swords together. However, if one was to swing with more force\stregnth-enough to cause the opposing swords field to "break" then the blade would continue through and cut straight through the metal blade.

So as long as both energy field are intact it's effectively the same as two normal swords hitting each other.

warsmithferrousmaximus
08-08-2008, 13:01
Im sure in storm of iron Castellan Vauban has a duel with Honsou during the attack on the Iron Warrior's battery. My impression is that both are weilding power swords .

Either Vaubans weapon is better made or Honsou under-estimates him, as when the weapons meet Honsou,s blade is cut in half, swiftly followed by his sword arm.

However the sword still seems to function when Honsou uses what is left to stab Vauban through the heart.

please correct me if i'm wrong but that is just how i see the event in my head.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT:skull:

Dreachon
08-08-2008, 14:12
Honsou used a normal chainsword, not a power weapon.

olmsted
08-08-2008, 17:00
you get a bzzzt noise like in star wars but nothing else happens.

heretics bane
08-08-2008, 18:07
Theres a story of i think either a raven guard or a BT where the marine,in termi armour, fights an ork warboss and when his weapons shave of his power klaws sparks fly of both weapons with a large schrech.

Burnthem
08-08-2008, 18:40
I'd like to think of two power weapons colliding being accompanied by a sonic crack and a flash of lightning between the weapons, basically something that you don't want to be too close to!

MrBigMr
08-08-2008, 18:56
I once had a thread like this, but with the added isue of what about when encountering weapons that work like power weapons, but aren't force fielded? Like monomolecular blades (like the one Sly Marbo uses) or Necron Staff of Light or Warscythe? I'd say in the case of the Warscythe, the scythe will cut the weapon as it can bypass shields and force fields.

Burnthem
08-08-2008, 19:26
A monomolecular edged blade is simply a really REALLY sharp normal blade, so it would always lose out in a clash with a power weapon.

Flame Boy
08-08-2008, 23:13
What about Thunder Hammers? Rather than play by the rules of a standard power weapon, they build up a charge that is only released upon impact, and it's always been described in the background as if it's even more fearsome than a power weapon. They used to say anyone not in Terminator armour trying to wield one would get knocked off their feet. I'd bet even if the power weapon brought against it didn't break, it would most likely be knocked out of the wielder's hand...

Brother Siccarius
09-08-2008, 05:59
Ok, so power weapons can cut through armour like a hot knife through butter, right? So one would presume that in a scenario where Soldier A armed with a regular sword blocks Soldier B's attack with a power sword, the power sword would cut through the regular sword resulting in dead Soldier A.

Now, lets replace Soldier A's Sword with a power Sword identical to Soldier B's, for the sake of the argument Soldier A and B are just as agile and strong as each other. Soldier A and B both strike at the same time in exactly the same way with exactly the same amount of force and their power weapons collide.
What happens do the power swords cut through each other at the same time or do they both remain intact?

Not quite, which has been represented by the Fluff quite well; the best and most used example being the Sword of Heironimo Sondar used by Gaunt. When you strike another sword, you're more often than not going to be hitting it at an angle rather than head on, leading to it glancing off. Almost always so if the regular sword is parrying the power sword. You'll probably put a nice sized knick in the regular sword, but you won't cut through unless you're trying to do just that.



Two power swords are just going to behave like two normal swords, but without the stress and eventual weakening of the weapon from continually battering blade against blade.

Thunder hammers are inherently a different animal from power weapons, or pretty much any weapon for that matter. They give off an inherent amount of force when they collide with the target*, accompanied by the flash and bang that give it it's name. The impact of two of these weapons against each other is difficult to calculate as it might very well just lead to having both weapons ripped from their owner's hands (yeah, I'd stay clear of that fight...).

*Actually the inherent 'rebound' effect this creates would be a very good answer to some of the problems with fighting with a heavy weapon, being almost immediately able to return to a good defense/neutral/offense fighting position, rather than left somewhat open while you bring back the weapon. Also being able to immediately reverse a swing by impacting an object, and letting the rebounding force reverse the swing for you.

SabrX
09-08-2008, 07:05
I like to think of power weapons like Halo Power Swords and the Thunder Hammer as Halo Grav Hammer. They are special blades endowed with energy and could parry another power weapon blow. But in the sense of Gaming, power weapon vs. power weapon occurs rarely unless both remaining combatants both use power weapons or the entire squad is equipped with power weapons. "Oh look, my squad suffered 3 unsaved wounds, I choose three other models not carrying power weapons to die in my Veteran Sargent's place."

BrainFireBob
09-08-2008, 09:08
Baby Jesus kills a puppy?

talos935
11-08-2008, 01:31
Nothing overly special as many people have said, but when playing games other than 40k, especially Inquisitor you will learn that power weapons parrying is very important [ie life or death].

MrBigMr
11-08-2008, 01:36
Wouldn't it be awesome if the effect of two power fields meeting was like the effect of a laser on shield in the Dune universe. If I remember correctly, as the shields allow slow moving objects to pass, applying something at the speed of light resulted in a massive detonation measurable in kilotons.

Two power swords meet and a pillar of fire engulfs a good part of the planet.

Weaver
11-08-2008, 02:07
Two power swords meet and a pillar of fire engulfs a good part of the planet.

Squads of Howling Banshees would have to be re-classified as Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Chilltouch
11-08-2008, 02:30
A power weapon is a power weapon because of a special field it is given that basically disintergrates most things it comes into contact with. Makes you wonder why they haven't developed power shields for defense against non-energy ranged weapons and why they bother making power weapons in certain shapes - all you need is a baton with a power field generator inside it.

Brother Siccarius
11-08-2008, 04:17
A power weapon is a power weapon because of a special field it is given that basically disintergrates most things it comes into contact with. Makes you wonder why they haven't developed power shields for defense against non-energy ranged weapons and why they bother making power weapons in certain shapes - all you need is a baton with a power field generator inside it.

They do have power fields for use against non-energy ranged weapons, most power fields generally work that way, and may have at least had some part in the close ranged orientation of the game itself (similar to why they still use combat weapons in Dune). Though I think the power fields in 40k use a variety of methods, the more "physical" energy barrier type (ala star trek), as seen on ships and personal fields, is the most common.

Firaxin
11-08-2008, 04:49
Didn't the old Power Field give a 2+ invul save against shooting only?

Slaaneshi Slave
11-08-2008, 06:12
Wouldn't it be awesome if the effect of two power fields meeting was like the effect of a laser on shield in the Dune universe. If I remember correctly, as the shields allow slow moving objects to pass, applying something at the speed of light resulted in a massive detonation measurable in kilotons.

Two power swords meet and a pillar of fire engulfs a good part of the planet.

I never stopped to think about that before. The shields slow objects down a lot (you can see a bullet coming through your shield towards you. You can either get out of its way or not...), but what happens when it tries to slow light down? Physics goes "**** you"? So why doesn't it do the same for normal light being projected at them? Such as sun light, since it is basically the worlds widest beam laser. Dunno, guess it doesn't make sence!

Ghost Of Caliban
11-08-2008, 06:32
watch any star wars light sabre fight.

ChaosBeast
11-08-2008, 09:37
probably nothing, but if you hit the enemies power weapon hard enough with your power weapon you might be able to overload the powerfield projector. it all depends in the physics of the energy fields, and as they dont exist in life i would expect that such info is rather scarce

icegreentea
11-08-2008, 14:22
I never stopped to think about that before. The shields slow objects down a lot (you can see a bullet coming through your shield towards you. You can either get out of its way or not...), but what happens when it tries to slow light down? Physics goes "**** you"? So why doesn't it do the same for normal light being projected at them? Such as sun light, since it is basically the worlds widest beam laser. Dunno, guess it doesn't make sence!

Well, you can try to explain that away two ways. First is that you have to take mass into effect as well. Since light's mass is so low, or non existent the field doesn't try/cannot slow it down. Second, the shield doesn't slow down lasers. Rather, it somehow triggers a nuclear explosion and a feedback wave that travels back the path of the laser and blows up the gunner. You can explain that away by saying its a result of the energetics and coherency of the laser. The sun's power per area is going to be lower than any weaponized laser, and its beams are not coherent.

talos935
12-08-2008, 03:45
A power weapon is a power weapon because of a special field it is given that basically disintergrates most things it comes into contact with. Makes you wonder why they haven't developed power shields for defense against non-energy ranged weapons and why they bother making power weapons in certain shapes - all you need is a baton with a power field generator inside it.
Storm shields, refreactor fields, iron halos, shield walls, erm.....any other examples of energy shields needed?

The pointed blade helps the power field to cut through it's target, if not it kind of crushes it instead.

Lord Dante
12-08-2008, 10:41
I think to really answer this question without relating the obvious to star wars lightsabres u have to consider what exactly is the power field project around the weapon?

is it simply a high energy output focused around the sword, thus being exponetially more powerfull along the swords sharp edge?

What is the energy being used etc...?

Id wager that somehow (its beyond current physics) the sword blade acts as conducter to channel pure energy, perhaps electro-magnetic. this energy increases the amount of energy released when it creates an impact.

If it was simply:
Force = mass X accelration x Area (ie the sword edge) / Theta (the angle of attack) x Energy^2 (ie the power weapons active energy field)

PW F = MaA/TE^2

I dunno thats how my eng degree would make me think, ive left out a blade sharpness... somthing along them lines at least. of course u need a value for E^2

either way U have the standard force of a weapon being used, which would depend on the weight of the weapon and the speed its swung. so a human isnt going to carry a weapon as heavy, and swing it as fast as a SM for example. ie, the SM wins.
This is then coupled to the power output, Imperium PW might not generate as much energy as an Eldar PW for example, but the Force a SM weilds a PW at might balance the issue out.

the only way to test the force of a power weapon outside of combat scenarios would be to place different materials long the PW blade, and recording how long it takes for the material to reach yeild point. it might faster using an Eldar weapon for example as they might generate more energy than a Imperium PW...

Erm, back to work for me...

Glabro
12-08-2008, 15:00
Dark Heresy tells us that a power sword is a "power field" weapon. Any weapon without the "power field" rule that tries to parry a power sword is destroyed 75% of the time. So yes, power sword fencing should resemble lightsaber dueling.

Waywatcher-
12-08-2008, 15:17
Im going to have too agree with the light sabre idea.

Waywatcher

RexTalon
12-08-2008, 16:47
I never stopped to think about that before. The shields slow objects down a lot (you can see a bullet coming through your shield towards you. You can either get out of its way or not...), but what happens when it tries to slow light down? Physics goes "**** you"? So why doesn't it do the same for normal light being projected at them? Such as sun light, since it is basically the worlds widest beam laser. Dunno, guess it doesn't make sence!

Finally, something worth discussing. I love me some physics.

If I were to speculate I would say it has something to do with the amount of energy at the point of impact. The weapon focused at the shield has a destructive impact on normal targets because it has been conditioned to do so. In the Dune universe the lasgun was an awesome weapon, and I suspect it was more than just focused light. If it were modulated in a way that caused an energy release at the point of impact equal to the energy stored in the beam itself, similar to lightning, then it only makes sense that it would destroy both targets when aimed at a shield.

The shield is like a pane of safety glass. It has an outer surface that contains it, while inside it's actually under pressure. If you chip that surface, the pressure makes the glass shatter. The shield is modulated to keep the surface uniform. When the energy blast releases it's stored energy it creates a gateway for the stored energy to escape. With that huge amount of energy suddenly trying to escape all at once the generator can't keep up with the current draw and explodes. The Lasgun, instead of emitting energy, suddenly finds that it has a reverse ionization current, similar to reverse biasing a transistor, and overloads as well.

cha-ching $0.02.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-08-2008, 17:03
So why doesn't a shield go nuclear when it is hit by other forces?

MrBigMr
12-08-2008, 17:11
I think Dune lasers might be Free Electron Lasers. For one, they seem to work like lasers and second, they been described to use sub-atomic energy or something.

Faustburg
12-08-2008, 19:37
No idea trying to throw out cereal-box physics terms and try to explain it to appear smart, the Dune shields and Ray-Guns as well as the "Matter Disrupting field" of 40K contains too much handwaveium to be really picked apart...

RexTalon
13-08-2008, 06:36
So why doesn't a shield go nuclear when it is hit by other forces?
Why doesn't your car windshield shatter when it's hit by a small rock? Because some of the energy of the impact is diverted as the rock changes direction. The energy weapon in this case becomes an outlet for the stored energy rather than a simple impact. It's like throwing water on a live electrode. You give the stored energy another path and it will expend itself trying to find ground.

@Faustburg - Saying anyone is "trying to appear smart" is pretty much the same as saying they are dumb. I would cool it with that kind of talk if I were you. The Inquisition doesn't mess around here.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 06:54
And yet a bullet will still penetrate a shield in Dune.

LexxBomb
13-08-2008, 07:04
you do realise that back in 2nd Ed an type of sword (regualr, chain, power) could parry a powersword and in some ways a power maul was more useful for fighting with as it could know the opponent out with the slightest hit. then again back then a thunderhammer instantly killed opponents and automaticly penetrated the armour on vehicles

Brother Siccarius
13-08-2008, 07:12
No idea trying to throw out cereal-box physics terms and try to explain it to appear smart, the Dune shields and Ray-Guns as well as the "Matter Disrupting field" of 40K contains too much handwaveium to be really picked apart...

Science, especially physics and quantum physics, is a funny thing. You can throw out any absolutely insane idea, pick at it with science, and probably find a way for it to happen. Hell, how did you think the scientific process worked? You start with a hypothesis that doesn't have to be based in anything other than "I wonder what/if/how....", and work on it from there. Some of our neatest new gadgets are being picked out of sci-fi novels to start the process (IE Starship Troopers via the Future Soldier/Future Weapons projects).

MrBigMr
13-08-2008, 13:03
Not to forget about what I read about some eggheads working on a force field after someone played a little too much Halo. The US goverment just tossed them a number with few zeros at the end and told them to get cracking. Or teleportation from Star Trek. Or the grizzly suit, which is a full body armour able to take a elephan gun round.

LexxBomb
14-08-2008, 11:40
the big ones I see of Sci-Fi becomming real tech are
1. Mobile Phone - Taken From Star Trek
2. Rail Guns - Currently being created for use in Naval Warfare By the US
3. Replaceable Organs... Research being done on growing Organs for transplantation into Humans ... Who remembers the Rats with human ears on their backs.

In fact I think the vast majority of opur tech was dreamed up by writters originaly and scienist went that would be cool.