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View Full Version : Do skinks really need a nerf?



Embalmed
08-08-2008, 10:00
Most seem to think 'yes, they do!', however I can never be quite convinced, my reasons are as follows:

1. LM don't wipe the floor at tourneys, they do reasonably well but that's it, new armies do better, and skinks are used a lot, why do we think LM need nerfing?

2. Isn't the problem really that Saurus are too expensive? If the cost of Saurus were to be decreased to say 10 pts, would skinks still be a no brainer option for WAAC players?

3. Frankly the statline of skinks is quite weak considering their cost, poison is really the only thing that makes them anything to be cared about. In cc skinks get slapped around by any other unit in the game, hell even TK light cav thrash them! And with BS 3 and such short ranged weapons, were it not for Poison their shooting would be laughable as well.

My 5 pence worth, any opinions?

Rodman49
08-08-2008, 10:35
I agree with your assessment - I've never skinks as OP; Saurus just need a reduction in points and Lizards may need a few new options.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
08-08-2008, 10:59
They absolutely do. Why a Blowpipe is multiple shot I will never know.

The trouble with Skinks is that they a) cause a disproportionate amount of damage AND disruption than their points suggest and b) take a disproportionate amount of effort/firepower to neutralise.

Thus, they are in need of some kind of down scale in power. Though as to Nerfing, I think arming the little blighters with nothing but airpowered foam dart launchers is taking it a bit too far.

Shamfrit
08-08-2008, 11:02
Simple solution would be to decrease the unit sizes. Small scouting parties instead of great big swathes...

Edonil
08-08-2008, 12:25
Shrinking the size of the units is only a partial solution though...if you compare the relative overall impact on the game of a unit of 5 Shades, or 10 Skinks, odds are, the Skinks have the bigger impact (and are 20 points cheaper, for twice the numbers). Having used Skinks myself (before I really learned the game, I will grant) they are ridiculously inexpensive for what they do.

Embalmed
08-08-2008, 12:31
The trouble with Skinks is that they a) cause a disproportionate amount of damage AND disruption than their points suggest and b) take a disproportionate amount of effort/firepower to neutralise.


But if this is true, why do LM not dominate tournaments? I mean most LM players at tournaments use bunches of them, if they were completely unbalanced wouldn't that mean LM should win almost all the time? like my question above, do LM really need a nerfing?

Mozzamanx
08-08-2008, 12:36
Since they are the craftsmen, and the Saurus are the military, possibly have them as 0-1 per Saurus regiment, almost like a detachment?

Have them deploy together, but from then on they can split up and do their own thing. The Scout Skinks would obviously not have to deploy with them, but the number of units is still restricted. The final nail in the coffin could be a smaller unit size, just so that there aren't 30 Saurus and 3 tidal waves of Skinks 'supporting' them.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
08-08-2008, 12:36
You asked if Skinks need a tonedown. Not the Lizardmen....Two very different questions right there.

Embalmed
08-08-2008, 12:42
You asked if Skinks need a tonedown. Not the Lizardmen....Two very different questions right there.

Well it's just that if an army based more or less on skinks (Edit:I'm thinking your average tourney skink army, not the army as a whole) isn't overpowered then how can the skinks themselves be overpowered? Is the rest of the army so bad it evens out?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
08-08-2008, 12:47
The trouble with Skinks is not in their ability to lay waste to my army.

Instead, spamming up on Skinks makes the game exceedingly futile for one side. The Skinks run rings around the blocks, causing a bit of damage here, little damage there. Meanwhile, all the opponent can do is try his best to bring the Skinks to combat, which is very, very difficult unless your opponent slips up.

At this point, the game becomes a waste of time, as I simply cannot enjoy just shuffling my troops around in the vain search for a target. Likely as not, I will lose the game, but not by a huge margin. Thus, he is extremely unlikely to get a Massacre, and thus won't win the precious tournament. Indeed, all he has achieved is the annoyance of other players.

Embalmed
08-08-2008, 12:51
This sort of corroborates my theory that in fact they are 'overannoying' rather than 'overpowered' :P

Conotor
08-08-2008, 12:52
They absolutely do. Why a Blowpipe is multiple shot I will never know.


Load 2 darts into the thing...


I do not see why people are scared of multiple shots. They only really come into play on large targets. Otherwise, the skinks are usually moving and shooting at long range, making multi shot useless.

I have never tryed large swarms of skinks. I take 2 units of 10, for screening and messing with enemy charges. How would a big unit work? wouldn't it just get hit by heavy cav and die?

Chaos Mortal
08-08-2008, 12:53
They absolutely do. Why a Blowpipe is multiple shot I will never know.

The trouble with Skinks is that they a) cause a disproportionate amount of damage AND disruption than their points suggest and b) take a disproportionate amount of effort/firepower to neutralise.

Thus, they are in need of some kind of down scale in power. Though as to Nerfing, I think arming the little blighters with nothing but airpowered foam dart launchers is taking it a bit too far.

i agree 100% here, i really think that if a saurus warriors cost 10pts it would be ridiclous.

Embalmed
08-08-2008, 12:55
i really think that if a saurus warriors cost 10pts it would be ridiclous.

Once the Chaos Mortal book comes out it will seem less ridiculous ;)

blurred
08-08-2008, 13:09
Give the LM a possibility to take warrior-bred (T3, shields and hand weapons) skinks as ranked units and add "Units of scout-bred skinks do not count towards the minimum amount of core units required" to the scout-bred (skirmishing and blowpipes) skinks. Problem solved. :)

logan054
08-08-2008, 13:25
Once the Chaos Mortal book comes out it will seem less ridiculous ;)

I doubt that if chaos warriors are costing 15pts each :P I have to agree with most people on this, they clearly do need some form of nerf, i think the main problem with them is poison, i see the problem here is that 60pts units can take down giants, dragons with relative ease.

The other problem is that make infantry based armies pointless, you simply cannot engage them, you factor in the typical 2nd gen slann and go for the win!

To be honest i have found most skink builds very ridiculous , its just another form of gunline really, just one that can move and shoot.

Urgat
08-08-2008, 13:26
I do not see why people are scared of multiple shots. They only really come into play on large targets. Otherwise, the skinks are usually moving and shooting at long range, making multi shot useless.

How can twice as many shots be useless, long range or not? Even with -1 to hit, you get double number of shots. I'm no good at mathhammer, but I'm pretty sure having twice the number of shots counterbalances the -1 to hit by a significant margin. That's like I don't remember who who claimed that giving two attacks to chaos warriors was useless because it wouldn't help win combat :/ (a claim I found amazing, to say the least...)
As for the problem at hand, I've never faced siknink hordes, so it would be foolish for me to argue either way, I just wanted to comment on that quote.

Marlow
08-08-2008, 13:34
I think the issue is more the number of Skinks that can be used rather than the cost/powers of the unit.

Embalmed
08-08-2008, 13:38
How can twice as many shots be useless, long range or not? Even with -1 to hit, you get double number of shots. I'm no good at mathhammer, but I'm pretty sure having twice the number of shots counterbalances the -1 to hit by a significant margin.

You only get poison if you hit on at least 6+, so if you move and double tap you can't afford another negative modifier unless the target is large, so you can only use multiple shot on units both within 6" AND out in the open.

logan054
08-08-2008, 13:40
if its the number that can be used then clearly its the cost thats the issue as you can buy far to many :)

and ugrat i said that about chaos warriors, i really cant be bothered to explain it to you again.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-08-2008, 13:45
Well it's just that if an army based more or less on skinks (Edit:I'm thinking your average tourney skink army, not the army as a whole) isn't overpowered then how can the skinks themselves be overpowered? Is the rest of the army so bad it evens out?

You can't look at it like that.

Very few armies can win just by spamming a single unit, no matter how good it is, simply because at some point you reach redundancy and further units will add less to the force as a whole than the initial units.

However, that doesn't mean that the initial units isn't a great unit. Just that an army of 'just' that unit won't win games.

Skinks are not as overpowered as they used to be, 7th took away a fair bit of there annoyance factor, but they are still possibly too good for there point cost. And would probably still be compared to something like 10 point saurus warriors unless there are further changes to the army simply because skinks works better/easier with the other lizardman choices than saurus warriors do.

Ward.
08-08-2008, 13:54
Load 2 darts into the thing...

Then neither dart would fire. It also seems people forget that the whole "move" thing skinks do is to get into close range (but still stay outside of a charge arc).

Embalmed
08-08-2008, 13:59
Very few armies can win just by spamming a single unit, no matter how good it is, simply because at some point you reach redundancy and further units will add less to the force as a whole than the initial units.

However, that doesn't mean that the initial units isn't a great unit. Just that an army of 'just' that unit won't win games.


Ah ok, I didn't mean an army with just skinks, rather I meant one of those SAD armies that you see from time to time in tourneys and that WAAC players tend to field today with sallies and what not to support the skinks.

My point was that those armies don't rule supreme (in fact they are outperformed by most of the new armies) despite being very heavy in this allegedly overpowered unit, and this to me seems like a paradox.

My conclusion was that skinks aren't overpowered at all just very annoying and boring to play against and that what they need isn't really to be powered down, rather LM should be restricted from spamming them.

N810
08-08-2008, 14:06
I think they are fine as they are,
if Lizardman had more core choices
you would see more varity fielded.

blueon462
08-08-2008, 14:55
In the next book skinks may get a nerf but the rest of the army will hopefully get a buff. As it stands right now a Slann lizard army depends on its skinks for victory, without them your core choices include ridiculously overpriced swarms and ....possibly the most overpriced infantry in the game. Until this is fixed...some people may actually have to bring secondary troops to combat threats like skinks.

Voodoo Boyz
08-08-2008, 14:56
The trouble with Skinks is not in their ability to lay waste to my army.

Instead, spamming up on Skinks makes the game exceedingly futile for one side. The Skinks run rings around the blocks, causing a bit of damage here, little damage there. Meanwhile, all the opponent can do is try his best to bring the Skinks to combat, which is very, very difficult unless your opponent slips up.

At this point, the game becomes a waste of time, as I simply cannot enjoy just shuffling my troops around in the vain search for a target. Likely as not, I will lose the game, but not by a huge margin. Thus, he is extremely unlikely to get a Massacre, and thus won't win the precious tournament. Indeed, all he has achieved is the annoyance of other players.

So, every other army with Core Skirmishers can pull off something similar. Take something to support your blocks and you can get the charge off on Skinks.

Now that they can be march blocked they're very easy to manage.

Skinks are fine as they are, coming to use this supposed evil army with a lot of skinks in it, they're not all that great. The only really good thing they buy you is shots against Large Targets to take them down, which is needed.

Urgat
08-08-2008, 15:12
You only get poison if you hit on at least 6+, so if you move and double tap you can't afford another negative modifier unless the target is large, so you can only use multiple shot on units both within 6" AND out in the open.

Why? You get poisonous wounds if you get a 6 to hit, modifiers are not taken into account I believe (I might be wrong though).


and ugrat i said that about chaos warriors, i really cant be bothered to explain it to you again.


I used that exemple to ask why 2 attacks is better than one, I'm not taking costs or anything into account (as I pointed out, since I don't have experience against skinks). Now I'm not asking you to explain me why 1 attack is better than 2 anyway.

Scythe
08-08-2008, 15:41
Why? You get poisonous wounds if you get a 6 to hit, modifiers are not taken into account I believe (I might be wrong though).


Rulebook page 95, last paragraph. Attacks needing 7+ to hit never benefit from the poison rule.

Thus, single shooting 10 shots while requiring 6s to hit is superior to firing 20 shots while requiring 7s to hit (6s followed by 4+, with no chance of poison).

Urgat
08-08-2008, 15:47
Rulebook page 95, last paragraph. Attacks needing 7+ to hit never benefit from the poison rule.

Thank you, I was wondering. Btw, do darts have a malus for shooting at long range and moving?

blueon462
08-08-2008, 15:52
Thank you, I was wondering. Btw, do darts have a malus for shooting at long range and moving?

yes they do.

Mireadur
08-08-2008, 15:59
ITs just funny a blowpipe reaches farther than a javelin. Lets face it, blowpipes as they stand now are overpowered/skinks are underpriced/overpermited in the list.

Problem is not only skinks or saurus (though saurus are great imho). Its the whole list completely lacking of capacity to make different army styles.

theunwantedbeing
08-08-2008, 16:04
Any of the following would be a welcome change:

Mv5
Not counting towards minimum core
Blowpipes being reduced to a 10" range

Hvidponi
08-08-2008, 16:04
Saurus warriors at 10 pts seems fine to me... They are large based M4 infantry...

Kyte
08-08-2008, 16:13
I think That Lizardmen would be a lot more balanced, if Skinks did not count towards minimum core choices. I play lizardmen myself, and Skinks aren't that good. Their low BS means that they'll almost always hit on 6's. The main deal is that opponents seems to fear skink units a lot and thus spend a lot of efford getting rid of them.

If saurus warriors got WS4 (why not? They're bred for combat) and a higher I value and maybe lose that ridicolous predatory fighters rule, they'd be a lot more useful.

Maybe also reduce skinks to M5 and increse Saurus to M5 as well would make the army a lot more balanced.

We need skink horned one fastcav and skink cohords too IMO.

Thanks

- Kyte

Condottiere
08-08-2008, 17:27
I fear skink blowpipers near my expensive units. Luckily the solution found itself in Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks.

Prophet of Quetzl
08-08-2008, 18:31
In an army with little competition in core it is not surprising that LM players often take the opportunity to max out on these little dudes who skirmish and can be upgraded to scout too.

I don't think multi shot is a big deal really, most experienced LM players will take jav and shield comb more often: that would suggest that blowpipes are not the problem.

I think the problem is how many you can have, specifically how many units you can take.

A rule like 'don't count towards core' could sort it out. Or better still 'max 1 unit of Skinks per other core unit': this would be especially effective becaus the other core choices are so pricey and you will get through your points too quick to have too many Skinks.

Wickerman71
08-08-2008, 18:49
I think Skinks are fine; but Blowpipes need to be a cost option rather than being a free up grade, no one really complains about javelin armed Skinks. Also the scout option is far too cheap any other army spends far more points on scouting upgrades. I feel having Skinks not count towards minimum core is far too strict on an army with as limited options to their core as the Lizardmen have. Perhaps a more fitting option would be to split skinks & skink scouts into separate unit entries an have the scouts & jungle swarms not count towards min core.

Prophet of Quetzl
08-08-2008, 18:54
or the scouts as special, and buff chameleons and stick them in rare to give make sallies less of a no-brainer

Wickerman71
08-08-2008, 19:10
@ Prophet of Quetzl

Then you would be really limiting the players access to scouting units, If feel that as with the Wood Elves it is very fluffy for the Lizardmen to use scouts.

TheMav80
08-08-2008, 19:12
I, personally, hope Skinks stay just as they are. I have never had anyone I played against complain about them.

Prophet of Quetzl
08-08-2008, 19:30
@ Prophet of Quetzl

Then you would be really limiting the players access to scouting units, If feel that as with the Wood Elves it is very fluffy for the Lizardmen to use scouts.

Not really, you get 4 special and 2 rare slots at 2000pts; 6 scouting units should be more than enough for anyone.

wizuriel
08-08-2008, 19:36
I don't see whats wrong with saurus warriors costing 12pts. They effectivly have light armour and a shield, good strength and toughness, 2 attacks and very good leadership.

compare them to like 9pt dwarf warriors. the dwarfs have better armour, worst strength, better ws, better initive, same toughness, worst movement.


maybe remove the 2x mulishoot from the blowpipe? or skins come with javelins and blowpipes cost +1 per model?

Prophet of Quetzl
08-08-2008, 19:43
Seriously, what's the big deal with blowpipes? Almost all experienced LM players will take javs more often than blowpipes.

Mireadur
08-08-2008, 20:02
Seriously, what's the big deal with blowpipes? Almost all experienced LM players will take javs more often than blowpipes.

Care to explain why? always thought its the most useless WHF weapon ever.

lord mekri
08-08-2008, 20:08
the simple thing to do would be to leave them as is, but not allow them to count for your core choices. that, along side making saurus warriors more affordable, will solve the skink horde issue. and its really just as a horde that they are problematic. a couple of units of 10, ok. 50+ of the buggers... come on now.

Prophet of Quetzl
08-08-2008, 20:50
Care to explain why? always thought its the most useless WHF weapon ever.

It's all about the Mathhammer.

Skinks are almost always going to be moving when shooting so that is -1 to hit with blowpipes. The target will normally be at long range so that is another -1 for blowpipes. If you use the multishot in these cases you have lost the poison because you are at 7+ to hit (Skinks are BS3). Javs don't suffer the moving or long range modifiers and can't multi shoot so they normally hit on 4+.

Javs tend to win the mathammer unless either:

you are not moving (not likely with such a short range)
you are at short range (not likely because you will probably end up being charged)
you are not multi shooting (why use blowpipes if you don't multi shoot?)

Jav Skinks are also more durable with a 6+ save (5+ in HtH) and even better in a Quetzl spawned list (5/4+ respectively)

There are some cases where Blowpipes can be better: such as against high T monsters. This is where skinks get their reputation from but it is not a common occurance unless the opponent is silly enough to make the monster an easy target.

At the end of the day the statistics just make Jav and Shield a better option in most scenarios.

Wickerman71
08-08-2008, 20:59
Giving the Skinks scout takes care of the conditions you list; 24 poison shots at 84pts is very good particullarly when they are deployed after the other player has placed his high toughness monsters or weedy casters.

Prophet of Quetzl
08-08-2008, 21:07
Giving the Skinks scout takes care of the conditions you list; 24 poison shots at 84pts is very good particullarly when they are deployed after the other player has placed his high toughness monsters or weedy casters.

Sure, if the opponent has placed his Giant next to the wood, knowing that the LM player could have some tasty scouts, then yes the Giant may die. But you can just as easily say skinks would die if the LM player charged them front-on into ranked elite infantry.

Neither player should be making these kind of mistakes and would deserve everything they got if they did!

Genrazn
09-08-2008, 05:36
Whoever lets there opponent double shoot my skinks is either half retarded or doesnt know how to handle them.

Usually nearly all armies have something to deal with the little buggers. But then I am mainly facing stupid cheesed ass armies where my skinks are useless. (VC banshee BS Daemons -.-)

But as it stands out right now. Below 2000 point games LM arent very competitve.

In my opinion. skinks are relatively fine. But its more so the whole book needs rebalancing and needs a few more options as skinks tend to be a great answer for things.

Hawkkf
09-08-2008, 05:54
I would settle for two restrictions on skinks.
1) Limit them to 1 unit per saurus warrior unit or skink cohort unit (which I assume will return in the next book)
2) give them 2 options on blowpipe darts a) S3 without poison and b)S1 with poison.

In return I would like for them not to cause panic if they elect to flee from a charge, which is their only true option besides stand and shoot then die.

Oh and I agree the javelins on scouting skinks tend to do more damage to enemy lines, as they give more chances to wound T3 or lower enemies.

Iron Father
09-08-2008, 06:35
Why is there always someone complaining about skinks? as the people who actually use skinks have said, they arent as great as shooting as people think. if you actually are letting them get into double tapping ranged, then it serves you right to have your units/big giant monster of doom die :)

hell, i hate it when my old blood on carny die due to a cannon, but i dont come on here bitching about how cannons need to be nerfed :rolleyes: :o

Prophet of Quetzl
09-08-2008, 07:33
Spot on Iron Father.

tbh the best thing about skinks is that the opponent often overrates the threat and disrupts his battleline/plan to avoid them.

Knighta
09-08-2008, 08:13
I've never had a problem with them really, skaven tend to kick the crap out of them.

They only have 8" range right?

Get some fast movers and mow them down... Problem solved

Quetzl
09-08-2008, 08:14
I don't think that the Skinks are overpowered, they just need massaging into a more balanced juicier list. I think Skinks have always been a problem, for everyone, but it seems they're the only one. Saurus always get talked about as if they're crap - as well as the Saurus Cav :P

GranFarfar
09-08-2008, 08:18
I really can't see the big deal with skinks in 7th edition. When marched blocked they really don't "run circles" around their opponent. AS have been pointed out, you seldom get to use multi shot. And scouting is seldom usefull for more than 1-2 units, at least in my experience. If you find it even more usefull, I must really ask how terrain you guys play with.

Sure, I can see them go up a point or two. But I must also add. I assume you how propose that they should not count towards core, or be 0-1 per saurus units do realise that if this is to happen the Lizardmen must get more usefull core choices. Otherwise you'll end up with LM armies looking all the same.

Invader Nails
09-08-2008, 08:26
Having just got back into WFB I can't really make an informed comment here, but after spending a few days pondering the Lizardman Army Book I would say that the list needs a bit more variety, particularly in the Core section. Another viable Core unit or two might go a long way towards alleviating the Skink problem (if indeed there is a problem, which I tend to doubt).

Rodman49
09-08-2008, 09:48
Skinks do not a nerfing, have any of those of you who are complaining about them actually used a Lizardmen army? It sucks man, Saurus are freaking dodos, too slow and too expensive while Skinks aren't even that good with low leadership, no Toughness, and low weaponskill.

Before you start screaming that Skinks need a nerf try playing with a Lizardman army. I thought it was odd that no Saurus ever showed up - then I tried using the Saurus Phalanx and found out why.

What the Lizardman list needs is . . .

1. Carnosaur not taking up a Hero.
2. Slann need to take up just a Lord.
3. Slann probably could use a buff in their abilities
4. Cheaper Saurus
5. Fast Cav (Horned Ones)
6. Extremely cheap RnF skinks

Mireadur
09-08-2008, 10:16
It's all about the Mathhammer.

Skinks are almost always going to be moving when shooting so that is -1 to hit with blowpipes. The target will normally be at long range so that is another -1 for blowpipes. If you use the multishot in these cases you have lost the poison because you are at 7+ to hit (Skinks are BS3). Javs don't suffer the moving or long range modifiers and can't multi shoot so they normally hit on 4+.

Javs tend to win the mathammer unless either:

you are not moving (not likely with such a short range)
you are at short range (not likely because you will probably end up being charged)
you are not multi shooting (why use blowpipes if you don't multi shoot?)

Jav Skinks are also more durable with a 6+ save (5+ in HtH) and even better in a Quetzl spawned list (5/4+ respectively)

There are some cases where Blowpipes can be better: such as against high T monsters. This is where skinks get their reputation from but it is not a common occurance unless the opponent is silly enough to make the monster an easy target.

At the end of the day the statistics just make Jav and Shield a better option in most scenarios.

Actually i think i was never requesting the -1 for long range with blowpipes. God thanks for that. Indeed changes things quite a lot and removes 1 round of dual shot from the LM player.

Still not moving for skinks is more common than you imply (way more common imho) plus if you get close enough to shoot javelins (8'') rather get a little closer (6'') and double shoot the pipe.

Anyway, dont forget that the chance to cause wounds is always double with pipes than javelins. Having the possibility means that it can happen. Who hasnt seen how the opponent rolled 20 dice and found out 6 or 7 sixes on the board.

BloodiedSword
09-08-2008, 10:59
Maybe I'm just a terrible general but I really struggle to deal with Skinks, factoring in their points cost.

I don't happen to have Skirmishers in my army and my shooting is almost entirely in the form of War Machines. Really, my Bolt Throwers have much better things to be aiming at than such cheap units with protection from Skirmishing, but I don't really have any other choice. I can't charge them because they outnumber my units and outmanoevre me, and even if I do get one in my sights they just flee, meaning that sometimes even running them down costs me more than it costs them.

Meanwhile I lose a handful of models every turn in exchange for a handful of Skinks, and at the end of the game we find it was a minor win for the Skink player because nothing actually happened during the game.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't really think Skinks are overpowered or underpriced as such. I do think their availability is a problem, and that too many of them is basically a gunline++, except (if you can imagine) even less fun to play against.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-08-2008, 12:17
Simple answers to the problem, pick one....

REduce maximum unit size more in line with other Skirmishers. This may require a smaller starting size to be fair.

Make Poison an upgrade for one unit only, but give Blowpipes a slightly increased range to compensate.

Up their points somewhat.

Don't let them count towards minimum Core, but allow a Salamander as a unit upgrade.

Bac5665
09-08-2008, 20:19
All but the first option would ruin either skinks or the LM army, and the first doesn't help.

Skinks without poison would be worth 2-3 points a model, maybe 4 with scouts. All they could do is march block, but being skirmishers, they cannot re-direct, they couldn't deal with war machines, and they will still be hitting on 6s most of the time.

Upping their points is madness. Lizardmen already have crazy expensive core, and the reason no one sees Cham Skinks is the price. There are only so many points a model you can pay for a skirmishing unit that can only deal damage through poison. And Cham skinks are beyond this point counting all their upgrades over normal skinks. With out all those perks, Skinks are already way more expensive than units with similar stats. 8 points a skink is too many. Lizardmen armies are already too small to compete with moden lists, making our core even more expensive just hurts.

Not counting for core would make every LM army 3 units of saurus for core. One unit might be TG, but they would al be saurus in evey LM army ever, simply due to lack of choice.

Reducing their maximum size doesn't change anything. I always take minimum sized units, since it give me more options; spliting fire, charging two war machines instead of one, fleeing from two unit charges instead of one... Minimum size, or close to it is already the smart buy. Changing the maximum doesn't really help, and I'd rather have to hunt down 10 units of 10 skinks instead of 20 units of 5, so it just makes the skink hoard more annoying and difficult.

stonehorse
10-08-2008, 00:39
The only issue I have with Skinks (and this is coming from someone who played with them since back in 5th edition), is that they can block line of sight to an Ogre sized creature (Kroxigors), which can get a line of sight through them for when it charges. As Line of Sight is blocked for the opponent, they can't shoot the Kroxigors before hand to try and weaken them on the turn they charge. The unit can Stand and fire if they are armed with ranged weapons... which if the Lizardmen play is doing it right they be screened by the Skinks as they advance towards your non ranged weapon units to add insult to injury.

That to my mind is what makes Skinks over powered; no other unit can do this in the game.

Imagine if Ogre's from the Ogre Kingdoms could do such a thing with Gnoblar Trackers, or Coldone Knights that could charge through that useful unit of Harpies... etc.

It is an un-needed nod to the old 5th edition Skink units, where the Kroxigors could attack over a rank of Skinks in the unit they where deployed with... which worked better as they could be attacked.

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-08-2008, 01:12
Skinks dont need a nerf-If anything they need to bring back shortbows to the main list so that they are even more flexible.

StarFyre
10-08-2008, 01:38
yes but what people here seem to forget is that lizardmen really don't have much that can take out bloodthirsters, dragons, etc...

it is a fact..if charged, saurus, temple guard get wasted...even with a +5 or whatever statis CR. We then have to hope the chaos lord or elven lord on the dragon with 9 or 10 leadership, fails a roll (even with a -1 or 2, isn;t that likely)...the next round..we are toast...

Happens enough whenever enemy takes greater demon or dragons.

Skinks are only thing we can do.
hehe

(and no, i don't use 100s of them...i use between 24 to 48 max in an army)

Stonehorse - your complaint is pretty much useless. All armies are supposed to be unique and have benefits and drawbacks. Thatcould be how it was designed on purpose as a benefit of the army. Same way, someone could argue..why can't TK miscast?? no other army has that unless u take a super slann..or something? or how come chaos gets a dragon with 2 breathe weapons? other dragons can't do that....

Sanjay

Gokamok
10-08-2008, 11:38
I don't think that the Skinks are overpowered, they just need massaging into a more balanced juicier list. I think Skinks have always been a problem, for everyone, but it seems they're the only one. Saurus always get talked about as if they're crap - as well as the Saurus Cav :P

And I guess this pretty much sums up the entire problem.
LM players field huge amounts of skink skirmishers because the other core choices are not good enough.
I think it would be a good idea not to let skink skirmishers count towards minimum core, simply because I'd like to see more Saurus warriors (or other slightly bigger lizards), as it would provide a stronger theme to the army. In order to make this happen efficiently, GW will of course have to make the other core choices competitive so it doesn't result in an overall nerf for the army, but more as pushing the army into a more CC oriented build.

stonehorse
10-08-2008, 15:19
Stonehorse - your complaint is pretty much useless. All armies are supposed to be unique and have benefits and drawbacks. Thatcould be how it was designed on purpose as a benefit of the army. Same way, someone could argue..why can't TK miscast?? no other army has that unless u take a super slann..or something? or how come chaos gets a dragon with 2 breathe weapons? other dragons can't do that....

Sanjay

Sorry I thought being Cold Blooded, Sacred Spawnings, and the Slann Mage abilities were what made Lizardmen unique... the ability to charge through units that screen them is broken as it undermines a very important game mechanic, Line of Sight. The examples you have used to support your counter arguement, aren't as important to the game mechanic that is being avoided.

soots
10-08-2008, 15:48
Lizardmen need a tweaking down of both skinks and saurus imo. (lessen effectiveness and make cheaper).

Prophet of Quetzl
10-08-2008, 16:26
Sorry I thought being Cold Blooded, Sacred Spawnings, and the Slann Mage abilities were what made Lizardmen unique... the ability to charge through units that screen them is broken as it undermines a very important game mechanic, Line of Sight. The examples you have used to support your counter arguement, aren't as important to the game mechanic that is being avoided.

And ASF on a whole army would break the very important game mechanic of charging. ;)

stonehorse
10-08-2008, 16:31
And ASF on a whole army would break the very important game mechanic of charging. ;)

Yes it does, I'm not a fan of the ASF for High Elves either, so I fail to see the point you are trying to make here. Could have sworn this was a thread about Skinks needed a tone down... not a general what special rule do you think is over powered.

Mireadur
10-08-2008, 16:41
I find ok kroxs can charge through skinks, its a very localized ability just like the corpse cart giving ASF, but not the HE blanket ASF.

What is not ok is krox having S7, but im very sure they will be toned down to S6 when the book appears.

Prophet of Quetzl
10-08-2008, 17:36
Yes it does, I'm not a fan of the ASF for High Elves either, so I fail to see the point you are trying to make here. Could have sworn this was a thread about Skinks needed a tone down... not a general what special rule do you think is over powered.

No, the OP was questioning the assumption that they need a tone down.

But chill out Stonehorse - I was just saying that it is not the only special rule that breaks the normal game mechanics. And I was saying it tongue-in-cheek, hence the wink.

Regarding ASF in a normal sense (and not the HE army-wide sense) it is just as mechanic-breaking; but there are plenty of units that have (or can upgrade to) this ability. Are they all wrong?

Skink Screen is a good rule but you don't see every LM player using it every game so I wouldn't call it broken or anything. But I'm biased so don't listen to me.

N810
10-08-2008, 17:37
seriously guys read a dozen battle reports...
then come back and comment on how broken
skinks are ... :rolleyes:

Godfiend
10-08-2008, 18:36
seriously guys read a dozen battle reports...
then come back and comment on how broken
skinks are ... :rolleyes:

Exactly.

Think back to those games you played with skinks; did they ever really do that much to you?

However, in great numbers they would be an annoying army. Limiting them to one per unit of (whatever) would tone down the numbers, but on the other hand, the rest of the core units need a serious buff for that to rule to be useful.

Lizardmen seem to just need more unit options in general. Hopefully the next book adds some new stuff, or at least brings some things back.

p3990013
10-08-2008, 19:01
1. Wasn't the 2006 or 2007 GT winner a lizardmen army? There simply are not many Lizardmen players out there (e.g. look at how many HE players there are!), but those few have good results.

2. Yes, because they can wipe out enemy monsters, chariots and light cavalry. Have you tried charging them with any of the above? Even if they flee, their cold blood helps them rally. Not to mention that each unit of 10 costs only 60 points, so it is fully expendable.

3. They have the perfect stats for their role: harassing enemy monsters, chariots and fast cavalry. Their skirmishing ability makes them more resistant to enemy missiles. Their cold blood keeps them from running. Their 360' view and 12" movement helps the targeting of their victims. Poison makes them effective VS everything that doesn't have a good armor save.

Overall, skinks are one of the best core choices in the game.

Prophet of Quetzl
10-08-2008, 19:28
1. Wasn't the 2006 or 2007 GT winner a lizardmen army? There simply are not many Lizardmen players out there (e.g. look at how many HE players there are!), but those few have good results.

2. Yes, because they can wipe out enemy monsters, chariots and light cavalry. Have you tried charging them with any of the above? Even if they flee, their cold blood helps them rally. Not to mention that each unit of 10 costs only 60 points, so it is fully expendable.

3. They have the perfect stats for their role: harassing enemy monsters, chariots and fast cavalry. Their skirmishing ability makes them more resistant to enemy missiles. Their cold blood keeps them from running. Their 360' view and 12" movement helps the targeting of their victims. Poison makes them effective VS everything that doesn't have a good armor save.

Overall, skinks are one of the best core choices in the game.

1. Plenty of LM armies ranked low too.

2. These are exactly the things they are supposed to be good against :rolleyes:

3. They have good stats and rules but not perfect. BS3 is not too special. Nor is Ld 5 (even with Cold Blooded it's not even as good as regular Ld 7). Skirmish may mean they are harder to hit with shooting but T2 and little to no armour doesn't exactly make them durable.

sulla
10-08-2008, 19:39
My 5 pence worth, any opinions? Only think I would ask you is if they really deserve to count as minimum core requirements? I agree with all the other statements from the OP though.

yatodota
10-08-2008, 19:47
Seriously, what's the big deal with blowpipes? Almost all experienced LM players will take javs more often than blowpipes.

Agree. I always take javs, because with blowpipes you always end up needing 7's to hit

Skinks are fine the way they are, and if they increase their cost and saurus stay with the same stats and their cost is reduced a little, we will see less skinks, but not more saurus.

theunwantedbeing
10-08-2008, 20:07
Skinks pay for their movement rate of 6, poison, cold blooded and being skirmishers.
They dont pay for anything else.
Which for 6pts a man is damned good value.

10 skinks.
6" movement
Blowpipes....20 shots, or 10 when moving and shooting at 6-12" all poisoned.
Javelins.....10 shots, hitting on a 4+ at upto 8" away, poisoned.

Either is still pretty damned good for 6pts a man.
Enough to make those 12pt st4 t4 2 attacks cold blooded ld8 saurus warriors with 4+/5+ saves seem not worth bothering with.

Why spend 12pts a man on a core unit, when you can have a 60pt core unit instead?
One that's faster, not hindered by terrain and can generate a heap of poisoned shots?
There's just no real competition.

Skinks are therefore too good for their cost within the list.
Saurus may well be a little pricey, but I doubt you'll see more of them at 10pts a man. You'll just see the few point's saved used to add another unit of skinks instead.

Huw_Dawson
10-08-2008, 20:17
But they crumple to a charge from light cavalry, something all forces should have a little of (other than Dwarves!).

As with all "ZOMG NERF THIS" armies, most of it is players that have been beaten by a well played army and, rather than blaming their own failings, believe that it is all the game's fault.

- Huw

Horus38
10-08-2008, 20:35
1. Plenty of LM armies ranked low too.

2. These are exactly the things they are supposed to be good against :rolleyes:

3. They have good stats and rules but not perfect. BS3 is not too special. Nor is Ld 5 (even with Cold Blooded it's not even as good as regular Ld 7). Skirmish may mean they are harder to hit with shooting but T2 and little to no armour doesn't exactly make them durable.

QFT, skinks are very good at certain things and IMHO need a 1 point increase if anything. The entire problem *(or perceived problem) could be solved by:
1) making the other core choices more viable.
2) have skinks not count towards minimum number of core units.

decker_cky
10-08-2008, 20:47
LM players field huge amounts of skink skirmishers because the other core choices are not good enough.
I think it would be a good idea not to let skink skirmishers count towards minimum core, simply because I'd like to see more Saurus warriors (or other slightly bigger lizards), as it would provide a stronger theme to the army. In order to make this happen efficiently, GW will of course have to make the other core choices competitive so it doesn't result in an overall nerf for the army, but more as pushing the army into a more CC oriented build.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. The skinks are a problem only when the army is almost entirely skirmishers. Take away them counting as core and you solve skinks. But boost saurus and add in skink cohorts (possibly at T3) to compensate. Make the core worthwhile, but force players to take some ranked infantry. I think saurus at 10 pts as is but without the predatory fighters rule would be solid.

Regarding scouting, either remove the option or raise the price of it like WE got, to encourage chameleon skinks. At +2 or +3 pts to scount, and not counting towards core, it's not an easy choice.

Mireadur
10-08-2008, 21:22
yeah nice comments there goka and decker. pretty on the spot.

p3990013
10-08-2008, 21:53
2) have skinks not count towards minimum number of core units.

Now that is an inspired idea :)

Goq Gar
10-08-2008, 22:08
Skinks have already been nerfed once. Lets not go through that again.

Crazy Harborc
11-08-2008, 02:47
I am painting up my Lizzie army....started a few days ago. I've not played the army since late 6th edition. I like the minies. I am hoping for a good rewrite, a better army, more balanced, etc. Heck, it may take me until the 7th Edition armybook is out to come close to a 2000 pt list ready to use.

Hawkkf
11-08-2008, 03:15
I have already stated I am for limiting the number of skink skirmishers, but why do so many people want them removed as core choices? LM only have 4 choices right now. One is lizard swarms which even if fixed will probably stay a 0-1 choice to avoid the future threads about how swarms are overpowered and need nerfed. The 2nd is Temple Guard which are almost assuredly going to be specials without the 0-1 per slann rule. Without skink skirmishers that leaves only Saurus. Oh and an assumption is that rank and file skinks will reappear. If they remove or nerf the skirmishers we will be pretty much watered down O&G for core.

No one at my local GW has any problems wiping out my skinks in a game. They screen my saurus and harrass anything they can. T2 with no armor and short range means they have to get uncomfortably close to the enemy. They can't dance around enemy units this edition so after 3 turns they either get shot, charged, or magicked to death. Heck one volley from lifetaker alone is enough to make a unit of skinks flee in terror.

LM lists are supposed to have fast and elusive harrassing units covering the approach of the saurus legions.

Prophet of Quetzl
11-08-2008, 07:37
If they remove or nerf the skirmishers we will be pretty much watered down O&G for core.

I've long had reservations about the inclusion of Cohorts in core for this exact reason.


LM lists are supposed to have fast and elusive harrassing units covering the approach of the saurus legions.

Exactly.

GranFarfar
11-08-2008, 10:42
I must say. I really don't buy that giving LM skink cohorts will solve anything. That is because of the problem ALL RnF in this game suffers from. They are to slow, to unmanuverable. One piece of terrain, one failed panic test, and a unit of RnF i usually taken out of the game(meaning, able to pose a threat). Those RnF who are worth taken usually have unbreakable, stubborn or is a regiment of High Elves(i.e strike first).

Sure, making skirmishers not count towards core and giving LM cohorts would decrease the ammount of skirmishing units, because it forces the LM players into it, but I am confident it would also make LM suffer against other armies.

Dominatrix
11-08-2008, 11:01
LM lists are supposed to have fast and elusive harrassing units covering the approach of the saurus legions.

The problem is that most LM players (at least where I live) take the "fast scout force" thing way too far. Having some harassing units is fine, but having nothing but harassing units is annoying. Lizardmen use saurus for war having bred them for that very purpose. That is why it strikes me as very odd when the weedy skinks decide to leave their warriors at home and go to battle all by themselves. :rolleyes:

soots
11-08-2008, 11:03
3. They have good stats and rules but not perfect. BS3 is not too special. Nor is Ld 5 (even with Cold Blooded it's not even as good as regular Ld 7). Skirmish may mean they are harder to hit with shooting but T2 and little to no armour doesn't exactly make them durable.


COMMON!

Skinks are a complete bargain, their stats are near perfect for their role (my ideal harassment unit would be)

Mv9 WS1 BS1 S1 T1 W1 A1 Ld9
Skirmish, multishot poison. Id only pay points for stats that matter.

Skinks are the closest thing to that in the game.

GranFarfar
11-08-2008, 11:15
COMMON!

Skinks are a complete bargain, their stats are near perfect for their role (my ideal harassment unit would be)

Mv9 WS1 BS1 S1 T1 W1 A1 Ld9
Skirmish, multishot poison. Id only pay points for stats that matter.

Skinks are the closest thing to that in the game.

You do realise that having poison and multishot would be completely useless on a unit with BS1, right?

guillaume
11-08-2008, 11:37
As always, it is not a question of the unit or army book being broken, it is a question of army lists being broken.

If one takes a proportionate amount of all units, then one finds that skinks are but a supporting unit as they should be.

Skinks do not need to be nerfed. Similarly to other armies, it is a question of player's common sense (boy I am dreaming there).

A full army of skinks will certainly do some damage, but then again they will do very little against a dwarf gunline (i know).

So again, the LM are very good as they are, skinks dont need a nerf. It is players that need to be slapped at!

Dominatrix
11-08-2008, 11:38
You do realise that having poison and multishot would be completely useless on a unit with BS1, right?

I think soots just overreacted a bit to show that for the role they fulfill, skinks have no need of some stats (T or WS for example). Of course they need a high BS.

logan054
11-08-2008, 12:29
Simple answers to the problem, pick one....

REduce maximum unit size more in line with other Skirmishers. This may require a smaller starting size to be fair.

Make Poison an upgrade for one unit only, but give Blowpipes a slightly increased range to compensate.

Up their points somewhat.

Don't let them count towards minimum Core, but allow a Salamander as a unit upgrade.

removing the poison seems like the most logical thing to do, that really is the only reason people take them in such large numbers. Allowing it as a unit upgrade seems ok but perhaps having a separate unit entry with scouting and poison would be better (and obviously special/rare)

nwo
11-08-2008, 13:00
Load 2 darts into the thing...


I do not see why people are scared of multiple shots. They only really come into play on large targets. Otherwise, the skinks are usually moving and shooting at long range, making multi shot useless.

I have never tryed large swarms of skinks. I take 2 units of 10, for screening and messing with enemy charges. How would a big unit work? wouldn't it just get hit by heavy cav and die?I can tell you why its scary, not once but 2 times in a 2000pts game, me playing with mortal chaos and my oponnent with LM, i got a unit of 3 dragon ogres killed by a bunch of skinks with those multiple shots.
Yes thats enuff for me to call it somehow scary ... 25 of them is 150pts, 3 ogres 237pts ... masses of them really do the damage on the nasty big things and often pay their pts cost in a few turns.

Embalmed
11-08-2008, 14:03
I can tell you why its scary, not once but 2 times in a 2000pts game, me playing with mortal chaos and my oponnent with LM, i got a unit of 3 dragon ogres killed by a bunch of skinks with those multiple shots.
Yes thats enuff for me to call it somehow scary ... 25 of them is 150pts, 3 ogres 237pts ... masses of them really do the damage on the nasty big things and often pay their pts cost in a few turns.

Not as strange as you might think, point for point Empire Handgunners will cause pretty much the same damage as skinks vs Dragon Ogres. A lvl 1 wizard with speculum (at 100 pts I think) will whoop a Blood Thirsters (450+ pts) ass. A mortar (75 pts) can wipe out a unit of 20 Swordmasters (300+ pts) (if they fail panic test).

Mireadur
11-08-2008, 18:04
As always, it is not a question of the unit or army book being broken, it is a question of army lists being broken.

If one takes a proportionate amount of all units, then one finds that skinks are but a supporting unit as they should be.

Skinks do not need to be nerfed. Similarly to other armies, it is a question of player's common sense (boy I am dreaming there).

A full army of skinks will certainly do some damage, but then again they will do very little against a dwarf gunline (i know).

So again, the LM are very good as they are, skinks dont need a nerf. It is players that need to be slapped at!


I think the main consensus already is they dont need to be nerfed but limited.

Goq Gar
11-08-2008, 18:16
Well, that may be the concensus, but I believe if you want to see less skinks, make the other units in my army suck less.

Skinks aren't perfect, they dont need a nerf, the army needs a boost.

Prophet of Quetzl
11-08-2008, 18:26
People are too quick to say "ZOMG unit x is broken, GW suck, nerf it". Isn't one of the concepts of a strategy game to come up with a strategies to beat tricky foes?

You could try tempting Skinks away from the rest of the LM force and shooting them, the -1 to hit skirmishers won't exactly save them with T2 and little-to-no armour. Better still hit them with some magic so there are no to-hit modifiers for skirmishing. Trigger some panic tests. They will often fail seeing as they are scouting way ahead of the General and can't use his Ld.

If you don't want to 'waste' firepower in this way then the Skinks can't be such a threat, right?

I do sympathise if your LM opponent plays a WAAC list (something like only Skinks, a 2nd gen Slann and Sallies). But if you don't enjoy it then don't play him until the new LM book is out, I'm sure this army build will be prevented some way. But I don't expect Skink Skirmishers rules or points to change too much. What I do expect is some other decent core choices and some restrictions on Skinks one way or the other.

Malorian
11-08-2008, 18:54
I've never understood why people complain about skink lists.

I guy that used to be in our group tried it a few times and it just didn't work. All I had to do was deploy with a wider front (to not let him run past) and then march up. The skinks could only run and shoot for so long and then I finally caught them and wiped them out.

Sure, against some armies I can see it hurting (ogres w/ no gnoblars) but otherwise what's the big deal?

And all skinks with a slann? How foolish is that? Just gun it for the slann and laugh as there is nothing to protect it.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe all skink list are great and I've just been playing the wrong players (or terrain with less than 50% water/forest) but I think skinks are just fine and I wouldn't change them at all other than fixing their kroxigor rule so it actually was useful.

stonehorse
11-08-2008, 19:40
As others have correctly said, increasing the effectiveness of the Saurus Warrior will help reduce the number of Skinks Swarm lists that are part of the problem.

Allow Saurus Warriors to fight in 2 ranks with all their attacks when using Spears. Also have Spears as a free upgrade, and give the Saurus the AP special rule when using their Hand Weapons.

Either that or have them cause fear.

I think these might make the Saurus Warrior a more attractive option.

Malorian
11-08-2008, 19:47
I don't think fear is right for saurus warriors.

As far as they go, I agree that going to spears should be reduced in points (either 1 point or free) and to what extent depends on if they can fight with two attacks in the back rank or just one.

I think if taking spawnings didn't make you special/rare that more people would take them as well.