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ChrisMurray
08-08-2008, 12:49
Warning:
This contains spoilers from legion and IA 4!!


I have this theory about the Red Scorpions Gene-seed\origins. So I thought I'd see what everyone else thinks.

In imperial Armour 4 it has the Index Astraites (sp?) for the Red Scorpions and says that there origins are unknown. It also says that there gene-seed is the purisist the machinicum\inquisition has seen.

In legion the Cabal tells the alpha legion that they have been watching the sm legions and that the Alpha legion is the only one without taint, which is why the Cabal choose to contact them.

You can proberbly see what I'm getting at now. What if (assuming the Cabal was telling the truth and that the RS gene-seed is as pure as is claimed) the Red Scorpions are descended from the Alpha legion?

The Alpha legion were the only Choas legion not to retreat to the eye of terror and assuming that the AL turned traitor (legion raises questions on this) the Red Scorpions could have been founded by loyal AL.

Just a thought, what does everyone else think?

CrimsonTider
08-08-2008, 13:00
Well, it is certainly a possibility. Circumstantial evidence says it is possible, and the book Legion does leave the ending open for debate, doesn't it?

I could see the Alpha Legion starting up other chapters, loyal to the Emperor, to operate within the structure of the Empire so they could continue to operate outside of it.

However, in the book the Cabal asserted that humanity would win only if Horus won. If horus lost, then humanity would eventually lose as well. The Alpha Legion, being the most loyal of chapters, were then faced with the choice of helping Horus win, thus savig humanity, or helping the Emperor, thus eventually dooming humanity.

We all know Horus lost. But did humanity actually win? Or was the loss of the Emperor to the Golden throne enough of a loss to help keep humanity from dooming itself? With the open ending to the book, it is easy to see the invisible hand of the Alpha Legion everywhere, and nowhere.

On topic, yeah, I like the idea of the Red Scorpions being a second founding or later of the Alpha Legion. Several questions then beg to be answered: Do they know their own origins? Did the Alpha Legion create them, or were they created by Terra/Mars using Alpha Legion gene seed? If the Legion created them, and they know it, are they loyal to the Emperor, or to the Legion?

interesting stuff... I can't wait to hear some other opinions.

ADF
08-08-2008, 13:32
Even the symbols of both chapters/legions have a lot in common; both the Hydra and the Scorpion are poisonous, sneaky animals that are known for their -sometimes vile- cunning and stealth.

So it makes sense, actually, but I'm afraid this will remain a 40k mystery forever.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 14:15
Dark Angels have the purest geneseed of all the current first founding legions (that are still loyal). I think it is more likely they are decended from Dark Angels than from the traitor legions.

Zeddicus
08-08-2008, 14:30
Dark Angels have the purest geneseed of all the current first founding legions (that are still loyal).

Where have you read that? I would have guessed Ultramarines otherwise.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 14:36
Angels of Death probably, the reason given that it wasn't used often (as opposed to the UltraPimps who get used for everything) is that nobody trusts the Dark Angels.

Lion El Jason
08-08-2008, 14:50
Dark angels are often stated as having the purest gene-seed of all chapters (Legions).
They are considered the epitome of the perfect warrior, something other chapters struggle to emulate.
Its been commented on how strange it is that their Gene Seed isn't used for more foundings since they produce the best space marines. It turns out that they prefer the predictable ultras over better marines that may not be totally under the imperiums control.

ChrisMurray
08-08-2008, 14:56
I guess that blows that theory out of the water then. Oh well, does anyone have any theories on what the RS were doing on there 300 year crusade?

Lion El Jason
08-08-2008, 15:42
Hmm.. they were involved in the badab war, was it after that?

Lion El Jason
08-08-2008, 15:52
Aah, just found my IA4. Looks like they did their little crusade, established a homeworld there then fought in the badab war.

Canis
17-08-2008, 21:18
My theory was that the Geneseed is Emperor's Children based for the following reasons.

The Emperor's Children had the purest geneseed out of all the original legions.

They use the rank "Lord Commander" which was a designation the Emperor's Children used.

The arrogance and sense of superiority are VERY EC traits.

The obsessive nature of the Scorpions drive for purity and the high status of apothecaries is similar in both chapters.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-08-2008, 21:29
Arrogance and sence of superiority are simply Space Marine traits.

Canis
17-08-2008, 21:44
Sense of superiority in terms of Marines above other species and non marines sure. Not generally to the extent where they avoid contact with less strigent chapters because they believe they are a corrupting influence or where they will refuse to fight alongside Imperial Guard (which is how bad the Scorpions are in this area).

I don't think arrogance is a general marine trait, with some chapters perhaps.

As for the theory about Alpha legion starting loyalist sub chapters... If Alpharius led the Alpha Legion does Omegon have anything to do with the Omega Marines? The fact that the Omega symbol is also an inverse Ultramarines symbol (the Alpha's greatest rivals and hated foes) is an interesting coincidence.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-08-2008, 22:20
My theory was that the Geneseed is Emperor's Children based for the following reasons. (snip snip)

The obsessive nature of the Scorpions drive for purity and the high status of apothecaries is similar in both chapters.

They use the rank "Lord Commander" which was a designation the Emperor's Children used.


Slaaneshi Slave is right about the arrogance and superiority, but I think you might actually be on to something there..

Eetion
17-08-2008, 22:34
Dark angels are often stated as having the purest gene-seed of all chapters (Legions).
They are considered the epitome of the perfect warrior, something other chapters struggle to emulate.
Its been commented on how strange it is that their Gene Seed isn't used for more foundings since they produce the best space marines. It turns out that they prefer the predictable ultras over better marines that may not be totally under the imperiums control.


Id say this on adds credibility to the suggestion that its based on the Alpha Legion/Emperors Children.
I If all the derivatives are from the same source, and then suddenly this new purer gene seed appears... well its not from the original hosts is it, otherwise some deterioration would be expected or would be of equal standard. to the founding Legion. So NOT from a loyalist founding Legion.

The question is, would there be closer ties with the Alpha Legion or Emperors Children? My moneys on Empeors Children, given the desire for excellence.. But the likelihood of traitor Gene Seed being used is unlikely, so favor swings back towards the Alpha Legion.
Any opinions.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-08-2008, 22:39
I fail to see how personality traits could come from Gene Seed. Those are all from the way they are indocrinated to be, as well as the hypnotherapy they undergo to teach them stuff.

Zothos
18-08-2008, 01:45
I had read that the Night Lords had the "Purest" genseseed of the traitor legions due to the fact that they did not worship the gods of Chaos....Is this revisionist fluff?

Sephiroth
18-08-2008, 03:19
According to the Index Astartes articles:


After the near destruction of the Legion in the gene-seeding process, surviving fragments of the Codex Apothecarion Terra indicate that absolute excellence was demanded of the Apothecaries who handled and worked on the precious genetic material. This ethos quickly merged with the Legion's general belief in perfection, so that the Emperor's Children gene-seed was perhaps the most pure and stable of all the Legions. Only the finest physical specimens were chosen for implantation, so that the mutation rate of the gene-seed was practically zero. Every enhancement produced by the gene-seed functioned at peak efficiency, allowing the Space Marines to achieve their full potential in battle. No other Space Marine Legion achieved such a goal, and the technology and expertise required have never been rediscovered in the millennia following the Horus Heresy.


The gene-seed of the Night Lords seems to be surprisingly pure. In fact, of all the Chaos Space Marine Legions, the Night Lords seem to bear the least evidence of mutation. This is perhaps due to a stable gene-seed stock, perhaps due to the fact they rarely associate themselves with a particular Chaos power for any length of time.

Although the Night Lords are distinguished by jet black eyes and pale skin, the real legacy of Night Haunter may be psychological. There is a tendency for paranoia and self-destructive behaviour in the Night Lords, and it is said that their sorcerers have a pronounced vulnerability to being wracked with painful seizures in which they experience visions, oblique or not, of the future. Night Haunter is believed to have only been able to see the darkest path of all possible futures, a terrible curse, and the visions tended to be self-fulfilling. It is to be hoped that the Night Lords' sorcerers suffer the same fate. This is as yet speculation. However, given their Primarch's susceptibility to such prophesies, it seems more than likely.


As the first Space Marine Legion, the Dark Angels' gene-seed is one of the purest and least degraded of all. With the break-up of the Space Marine Legions following the Horus Heresy, the Dark Angels gave rise to there successor Chapters, the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Redemption and Angels of Vengeance. Collectively these Chapters are known as the Unforgiven and each continues the work of the parent Chapter in hunting the Fallen.

There are no know aberrations in the Dark Angels' gene-seed which makes the reluctance of the High Lords of Terra to utilise it in the founding of new Chapters perplexing. No doubt there are other successor Chapters of the Dark Angels, but their names and when they were founded are unrecorded.


The Horus Heresy highlighted weakness inherent in the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions and this was exacerbated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques used to keep the Legions up to full strength. When the Legions were broken down into Chapters, a genetic repository was set up on Terra to store their gene-seed and monitor its purity. As the largest Space Marine Legion, the Ultramarines' contributions to this resource was greater than any other Legion and, as a result, their gene-seed became the stock type for many of the Second Founding Chapters. Those Chapters created from the Ultramarines geneseed stored on Terra are known, collectively, as the Primogenitors or 'first born', and they also venerate Roboute Guilliman as their founding father.

The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations in its genetic structure. Every one of the esoteric organs utilised in the arduous creation of a Space Marine by the Ultramarines are fully functional and it can truly be said of this Chapter that they are as perfect today as they were in the days of Guilliman himself.

Connecting it all, it would seem the Ultramarines are the purest. The Dark Angels are noted as "One of" the purest, while the Ultramarines' part outright states "is by far the purest stock".

Night Lords are the least mutated, but that stills means they have 'some' mutations. And the Emperor's Children used to be the best but... well they fell.

Zothos
18-08-2008, 04:20
As i said....Purest of the "traitor" legions.