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chadenej
09-08-2008, 14:01
With the upcoming Imperial Guard Codex, written by Robin Cruddace, I couldn’t wait to see the army revamped. In my opinion, the 4th is a good basis to start with, albeit there is a need in points change.

1 – The points changes
4 pts Guardsman
With poor stats and very poorly efficient gun, the guardsman can’t stand to be 6 pts worth. Reducing its points cost allow the player to take much more equipments and skills for his squads, this plenty of options makes squads very flexible. It makes sense to decrease the cost to 4 pts, because players will be tempted to add weapons and skills.
Lieutenant w/ 4 guardsmen 30 pts; Captain 45 pts; Colonel 60 pts
Due to the fact the guardsman is 4 pts
10 pts Stormtrooper
The cost stays the same, but the hellgun must be changed to 18’’ S3 AP5 Assault 3. This new stats allow the stormtroopers to be more mobile, thus eschewing the “safety range” dilemma (see below).
25 pts Ogryn
Basically, ogryns were quick to die from instant death (powerfist), and needed a way to prevent it, FNP must be choosed because it avoids making ogryns T5. The bone ‘ead may have at least a power weapon.
60 pts Chimera w/ weapons
While the Rhino is 40 pts, making the Chimera 60 pts makes sense. With BS3 and puny weapons, it’s not a very powerful vehicle. The side armour must be AV11 too, just to avoid Chimera being immobilized because of a bolt pistol.
25 pts Sentinel
The Sentinel, AV10 open-topped with 1 BS3 weapon…

2 – The platoon structure
Is 1 command squad, 2-5 infantry squads, 0-1 hardened veterans squad
You still can make “classic platoons”, but you can now purchase hardened vets as troops too. This format is self-limitation, you must choose infantry squads before buying vets squads. So the vets may capture objectives. The platoon may be 1 command squad, 2-4 conscripts squads.
There are plenty of classic (such as carapaces, warrior weapons, vox, grenades, transport) and new options (see below), allowing the player to personalize each squad independently.

3 – Army-wide rules
These rules are intended to reflect more specialized regiments, even if the basic platoon rules make possible a very wide array of specialization.
You can for example only “buy” vets, so the command squad gets vets, and the platoon structure becomes 1-3 hardened vets squad, the rest of the army being unchanged.
Some officers’ arms are more hardcore than others, not allowing some army choices.
An army-wide rule reproduces the strategic level of an army.

4 – Platoon-wide rules
These rules totally change the employ of a whole platoon, 1 is made to add mobility, 1 for morale issues (close combat, defensive gunline), and 1 for firepower (heavy weapons being able to shoot from LOS safety).
A platoon-wide rule reproduces the tactical level of an army.

5 – Squad-wide rules
This set of rules allows squad choosing 0-2 small special rules, which each increase the characteristics in 1 of the BASIC models abilities:
- Movement
- Firepower
- Precision of fire
- Firevolume
- Close combat
- Resilience
- Morale
This way squads can be personalized for each battlefield roles.
A squad-wide rule reproduces the operational level of an army.

6 – Vehicles squadrons and defensive weapons
As the Sentinel squadron, Imperial Guard vehicle must now operate in squadrons, freeing slots in the FOC.
The defensive weapons on Imperial Guard vehicles must be S5. A Leman Russ BT weights 60t, and a Chimera weights 38t. The argument of S4 defensive doesn’t stand. Firing 3 heavy bolters on the move don’t shake a Leman Russ so much it can’t go straight, nor a moving Leman Russ isn’t enough steady to allow 3 heavy bolters firing. And I don’t remember anyone complaining about “cheese Leman Russ” in the 4th Ed. S4 defensive weapons was intended to limit Falcon cheese, not emasculate Imperial Guard tanks!

The “safety range” dilemma:
Often happens with rapid fire: you can shoot up to 24’’ at safety range, but with poor firevolume, or you can shoot twice up to 12’’, but this way you are guaranteed to receive a charge the next turn!
While not a big problem in other, more resilient and more powerful armies, this can be a big issue in the Imperial Guard.
Rapid fire is hence the phenomenon which makes stormtroopers reduced efficiency: they should be mobile close firefights troopers. If they move, they only can shoot out of safety range, being exterminated the next turn.



Please post any critics, comments, and whatever you think is valuable to post...

Dr.Mercury
09-08-2008, 21:51
I think it seems like you want a bit much.

Stormtroopers with 18" range assault 3 hellguns? That is a bit powerful considering they are BS 4, with a 4+ save and you want them for 10 points each?

Guard at 6 points is perfectly reasonable, considering an eldar guardian is very similar, and costs 8 points.

I think your desire to reduce the points cost of everything is a bit much. Also the army, squad, and platoon special rules seems like a decent idea, but I think allowing them per squad would make the IG seem like a "jack of all trades" army, and not the anvil that it should be.

As far as defensive weapons, what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.
If you want Eldar "cheesy" tanks nerfed, then you loose the heavy bolters. As far as your argument about the tanks being big enough to fire all their weapons, sure it is a sound argument, but the eldar can argue that superior tech would allow them to do the same thing.

Vaktathi
10-08-2008, 07:53
I think it seems like you want a bit much.

Stormtroopers with 18" range assault 3 hellguns? That is a bit powerful considering they are BS 4, with a 4+ save and you want them for 10 points each? Considering a 3 shot S3 weapon is identical in most respects to a 2 shot S4 weapon in terms of casualties inflicted, and considering its lower range than weapons like stormbolters, its hardly overpowered. Remember they are still on guys with crappy transports, T3, 4+sv Ld8 dudes, and the current Hellgun is total crap. At 10pts a piece they will still usually be losing shooting wars with Dire Avengers, even with such boosted hellguns, and certainly would lose to them in CC.




Guard at 6 points is perfectly reasonable, considering an eldar guardian is very similar, and costs 8 points. The Eldar Guardian has higher Init, Ld, can move and fire its heavy weapon, and can have a Warlock give it all sorts of cool powers. It is also almost universally thought of as overcosted compared with every other Eldar Troop unit. Compare the current Guardsmen to a Chaos Space Marine, BA/DA SM, Dire Avenger, DE Warriors or an Ork and you'll find that for 6pts a piece, they are grossly overcosted, especially considering the cost of their heavy weapons.




If you want Eldar "cheesy" tanks nerfed, then you loose the heavy bolters. The issue with Eldar tanks wasn't their firepower, its the fact that a light (or at best medium) vehicle thats floating through the air took more railgun, lascannon, rocket, and cannon fire to put down than heavy tracked main battle tanks like the Leman Russ and Land Raider, while still putting out maximum firepower at speeds where those heavy tanks were unable to fire at all. It wasn't about the firepower, it was the combination of speed, ridiculous survivability, *and* the utilization of all of such a vehicles firepower that was over the top. Most people thought S6 Defensive Weapons worked fine, it was the silly SMF rules that needed the big change, but GW went ahead and barreled off anyway, reversing one of the most popular changes in 4th ed.


As far as your argument about the tanks being big enough to fire all their weapons, sure it is a sound argument, but the eldar can argue that superior tech would allow them to do the same thing. But can they actually *hit* anything moving at such breakneck speeds while avoiding incoming fire and navigating terrain at the same time, while attempting to drop off troops safely?

chadenej
11-08-2008, 18:26
I think it seems like you want a bit much.

Is it too much, to ask for a competitive army? Today playing IG rarely forgive mistakes or bad luck, and I'm upset with not being able to kill 1 avenger in 6 turns, even if I threw at him 12 lascannons shots!


Stormtroopers with 18" range assault 3 hellguns? That is a bit powerful considering they are BS 4, with a 4+ save and you want them for 10 points each?

There are already more powerful units in the game for the same price, and the big problem of stormies is the "safety range dilemma" (read ahead), they need to be changed, one way or another.


Guard at 6 points is perfectly reasonable, considering an eldar guardian is very similar, and costs 8 points.

I think you are joking. Guardsmen costs 4 or 5 points, not 6


Also the army, squad, and platoon special rules seems like a decent idea, but I think allowing them per squad would make the IG seem like a "jack of all trades" army, and not the anvil that it should be.

Some players want diversity, others don't. It's only an option, it's not mandatory. You could stay with infantry officer, and the same rules for all your squads, you see? For explaining the "officer arm" on another thread, I was almost flamed because people said with this, IG would lack diversity.

Helicon_One
12-08-2008, 14:15
* 4pt Guard are pushing things a little too far, 5pts (or 55pt squads with automatic Vet Sarge) is more sensible.

* If Storm Troopers had access to A3 18" Hellguns then every Space Marine chapter in the galaxy would hunt down Storm Troopers to confiscate those guns for themselves. You can't give them a weapon that so clearly outclasses a bolter, I'm afraid.

* Why shouldn't a Chimera be immobilised by a bolt pistol?

* The fact that the defensive weapons rule is badly implemented isn't a viable reason to write a list where your chosen army bypasses it. That's just a slap in the face to every other army to say 'this rule sucks so I'm gonna ignore it while you still have to suffer hahaha'. And I'm sorry, but no-one in an army with move-and-fire Ordnance coming out of their ears has any business complaining about being 'emasculated'!

ScytheSwathe
12-08-2008, 15:03
S4 defensive weapons was intended to limit Falcon cheese, not emasculate Imperial Guard tanks!

If this was true, they would have made it S5. Falcons have no S5 weapon choices, so it would have been the same 'nerf' to eldar, and less of an issue to everyone else. But thats not the case is it?

The other thing that jumped out at me was assault 3 hellguns. Yup. Thats asking too much. being able to consistently throw out 30 shots from a 10 man squad, for 100 points. Bearing in mind the avengers you hate so much can do it once every other turn, at 152 points.

chadenej
12-08-2008, 16:47
About hellguns: how can they be improved? Criticism is good, when it's constructive, so any suggestion is good to ear! The way I see Stormies is fast, mobile troops, with a very good but short-ranged firevolume, not expendable troops as I often see (5 men squads w/ 2 melta deepstriking, shooting and dying). I add I haven't tested the points at all. 10 pts Stormies with Assault 3 hellguns is maybe too low, how many can cost this kind of stormie? 11, 12 pts?

About S5 weapons, Guard have been nerfed more than other armies imo, and players now complain about their tanks getting less mobile... I think honestly that Guard deserve the S5 weapons.

* Why shouldn't a Chimera be immobilised by a bolt pistol?
Maybe because it's an IFV? like the US Army Bradley I mean, not like the Rhino APC. Having a Chimera getting immobilized with a bolt pistol shot is just... lame

Anybody read the whole 'units' and 'army list'? Any thoughts about officer arms, platoon upgrades, squad upgrades, armoured company upgrades?

ScytheSwathe
12-08-2008, 17:59
Assault 2, and even thats at a push, maybe assault 2 range 18?
Personally im not aversed to hellguns atm anyway. agreed that troops need to get a bit cheaper, but i dont see that they need to get individually better.

Sadly the mechanics of the game work agaisnt your chimera as much as anything else. the evil falcon, waveserpant, tau hammerhead, vindicator etc, can all be immobilised by a bolter, just not from the side. On the flip side, chimeras, unlike rhinos cant be hurt by first turn heavy bolters, or destroyed by scatter lasers.

I would argue that guard want 5 point guardsmen, 8 point stormtroops. Compare that to eldar guardians, who are considered a bit overpriced by some, (though others swear by them) you lose 1 point of strength on the gun, but gain 1 BS. Can shoot from twice as far away, have a 4+ compared to their 5+, so youll get a save, cant assault after shooting, but then do you really want to. Id say that with the current hellgun they would be realistic at that price.
Compared to the more favoured dire avengers, you really only drop the strength on the gun, though youll have 50% more models, ie wounds, and shots. By numbers youll rival them in combat, as their only advantage would be striking first, but again youll get 50% more attacks for the points. You can also take special weapons.

If you insist on assault 3 guns, at 15 points per model, you would be getting 60 shots per turn from 300 points, again compare to avengers, they would get 40 per turn from 300 points, with the potential to get 60 in exchange for not shooting the next turn.

essentially what im saying is that i would go for cheaper troops, rather than tooling them up. Guard are all about numbers.

Vaktathi
12-08-2008, 19:19
For some reason, when people see the assault 3 hellgun suggestion (one of the more common suggestions on this board I might add) some automatically think it is horrendously overpowered.

When you look at its effectiveness compared to a bolter, its identical at 12" and under against T4 targets, better at 12-18, but then the bolter still can fire 18-24 where the 18" assault 3 cannot. When shooting at T3 targets, the Assault 3 hellgun is marginally better at 1-18", but again the Bolter still has a longer range and is for most intents just as effective. Against T5 targets the Bolter again has a clear advantage, and can also harm vehicles where the improved Hellgun could not.

Remember, while its assault 3, its still only S3, and still only an 18" range. They are muppet mowers, where the bolter is a much heavier purpose weapon that is still a decent muppet mower, but is more varied in its potential uses.

Also remember that the bolter is not some magical standard that cannot be touched, it is an abstract representation, whose to say that elite commando forces may not have an equally capable, is much bulkier and heavier, and shorter lifespan equivalent?


The problem with the Stormtrooper is that at the current 10pts, it gets outshot by just about everything else on a point for point basis, Dire Avengers, Orks Shootas, Fire Warriors, SM's, etc, where it should be roughly equal. The ST cannot put out enough hurt at longer ranges to do enough hurt, and at short range they get outshot by just about everything else or put themselves far too close and end up getting in only one good round of shooting that game as a result. The ST is not an assault unit, they are not very good in CC, they are a shooty unit, but one that gets consistently outshot by just about every other shooty unit for equivalent points. Currently, to match what they'd be worth, they would need to be about 7pts for their cost to match their relative effectiveness. ST's should be a move and fire type of unit, something that gets in somewhat close and hoses it down with tons of shots, but currently they simply cost too much for what they do and aren't very good at their job regardless.

Not only that, but Hardened Vets can do everything ST's can do, for cheaper or at least the same cost (cheaper though if they want to Infiltrate or DS) and can do it with more heavy and special weapons, all they lack is the AP5 on their lasguns.


With regards to 4pt Guardsmen, the current guardsmen is horrifically overpriced. 3 guardsmen costing 18pts are about equivalent to a single 15pt SM in terms of shooting power, but that SM also is far better at CC, with much more powerful Ld rules and squad upgrade abilities. a 6pt Ork Shoota boy not only outshoots a guardsmen even with its BS2, but is still far and away better at CC and is fearless so long as it remains in a large squad. The problem is, with IG units, its hard to cost them as they are so cheap, but even at their cheap costs there are still relatively overpriced.

CHOOBER SNIPES
13-08-2008, 04:58
ummm.... well the assault three hellgun seems a bit much. id say assault 2 24". that way, you have the edge on range against most things when it comes to mobile firepower, but dont have the true stopping power of the heavier weapons. infantry should cost 5 pts minimum, maybe 55 per squad. they SHOULD have cheaper weapon upgrades however. guard infantry with their trusty flashlights are point for point better at killing marines than marines are with their bolters. if 2.5 guardsmen shot at a marine, theyd do a better job than one marine shooting at the same guy. Also, how can you believe that eldar, one of the most technologically advanced races, who specialize in antigrav vehicles when it comes to armor, wouldnt have weapons systems that would allow them to hit what they want even moving at blinding speeds. in our own time, we have weapons systems that can hit targets while moving at 30-40 MPH easily. it seems some of the points drops have gone too far, but have in fact illustrated most places they need to be dropped, and where things need to improve. id say 5 pt guardsmen with cheaper heavy upgrades and assault 2 hellguns instead of rapid fire.

therisnosaurus
13-08-2008, 05:46
Is it too much, to ask for a competitive army? Today playing IG rarely forgive mistakes or bad luck, and I'm upset with not being able to kill 1 avenger in 6 turns, even if I threw at him 12 lascannons shots!

See, I know this probably isn't so fair, but I just read that and dismissed your list out of hand. If you think a list is unbalanced BECAUSE YOU KEEP ROLLING ONES, then you need to get your head checked. At least from a design perspective.

Really. I wish people who did army lists would apply a bit of bloody objectivity and analytical skill to the process.... comments like that make me want to cry...

Helicon_One
13-08-2008, 08:38
* Why shouldn't a Chimera be immobilised by a bolt pistol?
Maybe because it's an IFV? like the US Army Bradley I mean, not like the Rhino APC. Having a Chimera getting immobilized with a bolt pistol shot is just... lame

You say that as though a bolt pistol is some little kid's popgun, and not a semi-automatic .75 handcannon firing armour piercing explosive gyrojet rounds.

If Bradleys can be incapacitated by lucky hits from light cannon fire or RPGs (Can they? I'm a gaming nerd, not a military hardware nerd), then its entirely reasonable for Chimeras to be similarly vulnerable to bolter fire.

Marneus Calgar
13-08-2008, 09:11
The LRBT is litterly a mini baneblade. These types of tanks have very low speeds, are heavy and lumbering vehicles. Fluff wise, the LRBT should be able to fire its battle cannon and its heavy bolters at the same time. Yet in 5th edition, if we make an attempt to move our LRBT, other than pivot, we can only fire our battle cannon or one heavy bolter(or lascannon). It is also strange that while we can move at combat speed and not suffer any type of penatly for firing our battlecannon, yet we are so limited when we want to fire our defensive weapons.

If I remember correctly, and if my eyes are not decieving me, the stormtrooper carries a powerpack for his hellgun. Therefore, with this powerpack, this stormtrooper does not need to reload his super suped up lasgun which has an incredible rate of fire. This is very unfortunate for Space Marines, since they already have a power pack to supply power for their power armor. Even if they wanted a hellgun, they would have to choose between their armor or the hellgun. :D

Would you rather have the stormtrooper have a bolter instead of a hellgun and is equipped with a 3+ armor save(no power pack, can be given stronger armor) for 11 points? This seams like a fair trade compared to the current stormtroopers.

Helicon_One
13-08-2008, 14:22
The LRBT is litterly a mini baneblade. These types of tanks have very low speeds, are heavy and lumbering vehicles. Fluff wise, the LRBT should be able to fire its battle cannon and its heavy bolters at the same time.
Skimmers move smoothly through the air, never being disrupted by uneven terrain as ground vehicles are and as such always make for stable firing platforms. So ... fluffwise, all Eldar and Tau vehicles should be able to move and fire all their weapons as if stationary, correct?


If I remember correctly, and if my eyes are not decieving me, the stormtrooper carries a powerpack for his hellgun. Therefore, with this powerpack, this stormtrooper does not need to reload his super suped up lasgun which has an incredible rate of fire. This is very unfortunate for Space Marines, since they already have a power pack to supply power for their power armor. Even if they wanted a hellgun, they would have to choose between their armor or the hellgun. :D
Alternatively they could carry two powerpacks. Devastator marines dont have to choose between armour and lascannons, after all.


Would you rather have the stormtrooper have a bolter instead of a hellgun and is equipped with a 3+ armor save(no power pack, can be given stronger armor) for 11 points? This seams like a fair trade compared to the current stormtroopers.

Well then they would be Battle Sisters, right down to the cost.

(or was that the point you were making?)

Bloodknight
13-08-2008, 16:11
I'd say that was the point ;). Except that sisters also get acts of faith in their points.

Marneus Calgar
13-08-2008, 17:10
Skimmers move smoothly through the air, never being disrupted by uneven terrain as ground vehicles are and as such always make for stable firing platforms. So ... fluffwise, all Eldar and Tau vehicles should be able to move and fire all their weapons as if stationary, correct?

Terrain would be a very important factor which would influence a tanks/skimmers mobility and accuracy. There is also another factor which would influence these things, recoil. A falcon moving at top speed might have trouble keeping itself afloat and flying smoothly if it is firing all of it's weapons, considering it's lighter weight and the fact it is in air. Note that Skimmers can still move at combat speed and fire all weapons.



Alternatively they could carry two powerpacks. Devastator marines dont have to choose between armour and lascannons, after all.

Good point, yet we will fight for the right to have one good toy which the Space Marine will not steal from us!




Well then they would be Battle Sisters, right down to the cost.

(or was that the point you were making?)

Yes, and as Bloodknight reminded me, these Stormtroopers have strategic points which they can use to boost their abilities. ;)

Realistically, I would like to be able to place one unit on the table which the opponent feels it's a threat, instead of more easy bodies to kill.

I would really like to see a hellgun be str 3 ap 5, 18 inches. This unit(finally) will be able to do what it supposed to do in fluff, game, and even in the units name, stormtrooper. They are designed for close range firefights which can put out a disgusting amount of firepower.

Vaktathi
13-08-2008, 17:58
Skimmers move smoothly through the air, never being disrupted by uneven terrain as ground vehicles are and as such always make for stable firing platforms. So ... fluffwise, all Eldar and Tau vehicles should be able to move and fire all their weapons as if stationary, correct? How fast can the weapons mounts track, how fast can the gunner move his hands across the weapons console, how fast can he interpret the information, how fast can the weapons recharge and how does it all affect the skimmers flight? Just because a vehicle isn't effected by terrain doesn't mean its flight is smooth either, as wind, nearby blasts, and evasive maneuvers will all disrupt it. It makes far more sense for a slow moving heavy battle tank to move at 20-30kph and blaze away with everything than a light floating vehicle at 160kph with hundredths of a second to react, even Eldar would have a far more difficult time pulling it off with about one tenth of the time it takes to blink to acquire, aim and fire at a target thats only a couple dozen meters away, waiting for the weapons to track and the firing mechanisms to go off in that amount of time as well compared with a slow moving heavy battle tank that can take its time and can have much more stabilized gun mountings.


You say that as though a bolt pistol is some little kid's popgun, and not a semi-automatic .75 handcannon firing armour piercing explosive gyrojet rounds.

If Bradleys can be incapacitated by lucky hits from light cannon fire or RPGs (Can they? I'm a gaming nerd, not a military hardware nerd), then its entirely reasonable for Chimeras to be similarly vulnerable to bolter fire. By light cannon fire and RPG's you are talking about weapons equivalent to Autocannons and Krak grenades, not bolt pistols. A Bolt Pistol has equivalent power to a heavy stubber, a heavy machine gun. IFV's armor is proof against such weapons.

Marneus Calgar
13-08-2008, 18:10
How fast can the weapons mounts track, how fast can the gunner move his hands across the weapons console, how fast can he interpret the information, how fast can the weapons recharge and how does it all affect the skimmers flight? Just because a vehicle isn't effected by terrain doesn't mean its flight is smooth either, as wind, nearby blasts, and evasive maneuvers will all disrupt it. It makes far more sense for a slow moving heavy battle tank to move at 20-30kph and blaze away with everything than a light floating vehicle at 160kph with hundredths of a second to react, even Eldar would have a far more difficult time pulling it off with about one tenth of the time it takes to blink to acquire, aim and fire at a target thats only a couple dozen meters away, waiting for the weapons to track and the firing mechanisms to go off in that amount of time as well compared with a slow moving heavy battle tank that can take its time and can have much more stabilized gun mountings.

By light cannon fire and RPG's you are talking about weapons equivalent to Autocannons and Krak grenades, not bolt pistols. A Bolt Pistol has equivalent power to a heavy stubber, a heavy machine gun. IFV's armor is proof against such weapons.

A Leman Russ Vanquisher has a top speed of 32 kph on a road, and it can only move 19 kph off road. Notice that this is the top speed of the vehicle, that means the driver is flooring the vehicle. This would translate to about 10 miles an hour off road, making it very slow vehicle.

chadenej
14-08-2008, 10:45
You say that as though a bolt pistol is some little kid's popgun, and not a semi-automatic .75 handcannon firing armour piercing explosive gyrojet rounds.

If Bradleys can be incapacitated by lucky hits from light cannon fire or RPGs (Can they? I'm a gaming nerd, not a military hardware nerd), then its entirely reasonable for Chimeras to be similarly vulnerable to bolter fire.

OK, so why should the Chim' be vulnerable to bolts, and not the Rhino? I ask about side armour values here. The Guard has again a disadvantage.

Assault 3 Hellguns: I know it makes a lot of people afraid, but as Vaktathi demonstrated, it would not be overpowered, it's still a S3 weapon. And remember they're Elites, so no scoring units, and these days it makes a difference in lists.

S5 defensive weapons: fluff-wise, LRBT can fire all their defensive weapons while moving (at combat speed, ~15kms/h). It would bring a small problem ingame, if you compare to vehicles of other races. But here, if the LRBT come in squadron, with the squadron rules (targetting the same units, immobilized=destroyed), S5 defensive weapons gets a limit, and are not overpowered.

thenurgler
14-08-2008, 23:06
Not bad, not bad. It's just like Imperial Guard, only every unit is either vastly improved or cheapened by a large amount, plus there are a lot more options and no more restrictions. Has any part of the army taken any hit of any kind? I honestly think current level Imperial Guard are pretty balanced as is.

Also talking about RPG's please note that bolters ARE rapid fire RPG's. They fire self propelled explosive rockets.

Vaktathi
14-08-2008, 23:20
Also talking about RPG's please note that bolters ARE rapid fire RPG's. They fire self propelled explosive rockets.

There's a difference however between a 6lb shaped charge anti-vehicle warhead and a .75cal heavy anti-personell round. Both may technically be RPG's, but there's a difference between an something akin to a Krak grenade or Krak missile, and a bolter round.

Helicon_One
15-08-2008, 10:47
OK, so why should the Chim' be vulnerable to bolts, and not the Rhino? I ask about side armour values here. The Guard has again a disadvantage.

The Rhino is designed for a different role than the Chimera - blitzkreig assaults on heavily defended positions, where exposing your flanks to hostile fire is a necessary evil. The Chimera is for holding back and providing ranged fire support and somewhere for the squad to keep safe, while only presenting your thick frontal armour to the foe.

Same reason why the short ranged, in-your-face Demolisher gets increased side and rear armour compared to the vanilla Russ.

Bloodknight
15-08-2008, 11:02
That's fluff vs game, I am afraid. The Chimera does not perform well in the game, so it either has to get better or cheaper. The "front armour argument" doesn't really count since a game of 40K is not a large battle with hundreds of Chimeras forming a tank wall, but you only get maybe 5 in a normal game (and usually, that's already pushing it).
Also, while it is true that in real life, troops disembark from the IFV when reaching the front line, the Chimera is the only means of transport in a 40K IG army in a game that revolves about taking objectives in a set amount of turns, and therefore the "long range" approach does not make too much sense, since the Chimera is needed to transport squishy troops onto the objective, thus in general exposing its flanks by default (unless the opponent has no units left that can threaten it, but then you've already won ;)).

RCgothic
15-08-2008, 11:23
guard infantry with their trusty flashlights are point for point better at killing marines than marines are with their bolters. if 2.5 guardsmen shot at a marine, theyd do a better job than one marine shooting at the same guy.

True. a Marine is twice as good at shooting a marine than a guardsman, but cost 2.5 times as much.
What you neglect to say is that a marine is 8 times better at shooting guardsmen than guardsmen are at shooting marines, and can butcher them in close combat as a bonus.

Purely shooting, basic guardsmen vs basic marines, a 2pt guardsman would still be overcosted. And then the Marine still has close combat ability, and ATSKNF. A 4pt guardsman isn't much to ask for.

The basic troop should be costed according to what it can do. What guardsmen can do is shoot/survive worth 2pts and have more scoring units on the table.

Any additional abilities should be costed at their effectiveness. A Guardsman with a lascannon is still only half as good as killing marines as a marine with a bolter, but can shoot up vehicles as well. I don't see why people insist that a BS3 S3 T3 Sv3+ troop choice must be costed the same or worse for weapons than marines.

chadenej
16-08-2008, 12:03
Hi,

I removed the 3 .doc word documents, and made 1 .pdf of them, with some pics. (attached to this post)

Well, the debate was centered until now on:
- Assault3 hellguns
- S5 defensive weapons for tanks
- Chimera's side armour

We know there are pros and cons arguments for this changes...

Hellguns
Stormtroopers, in the present 4th codex, are less efficient than the hardened vets: they are more expensive (11 pts w/ infiltrate vs. 8 pts), can take less weapons options, and their main features, which are the hellguns and carapaces, are not 3 pts worth, mainly because hellguns make ST very static, and lack S or AP to be efficient, and carapace is not a very good deal when every cover now grants a 4+ save.
As the statline of ST reflects what they should be, the very problem is the hellgun.
24'' S3 AP5 Rapid fire make ST static, and this is definitivly not the way ST should be.
The 2 options are here:
18'' S3 AP5 Assault3
24'' S3 AP5 Assault2
I have a pref for Assault3, shorter range, to reflect the mobility and firepower of the ST.

S5 defensive weapons
About everything have been written on this one, here or on other threads.
Fluff: IG tanks are ponderous (read: have enough stability) and slow (read: they don't shake and tremor), so they CAN fire their heavy bolters on the move.
In-game: few people complained about LRBT firing 3 HB on the move, mainly because of their BS3. LR are now less mobile in a game which is more mobile than before.
The solution: With LRBT coming in a squadron structure, following squadron rules (all vehicles firing at the same target, immobilized=destroyed), S5 def. weapon is not so overpowered.

Chimera's side armour
Chimera's got now a side AV10, which make it very vulnerable to near every basic weapon of the game! It's the only transport of the IG, and it's described as "ubiquitous". Not enough ubiquitous to resist to S4 weapons. Making side AV11 for the Chim would allow ppl take it as transport again, because it would be less vulnerable. And add to that it's overcosted now.

I have some time to explain more in details the changes I made, so:
The Codex features

Imperial Guard special rules
- Command. This rule is entended to reflect the fact that every model in the army can call to the leadership of an officer of the IG. IG rely on solid command structure and discipline, the regiment coming from feral worlds (officers would be the strongest males), feudal worlds (officers would be the nobles), or imperial worlds (officers being... officers)
- Entrenched position. This rule is made for HW platoons, they can now entrench, i.e. gain a 4+ cover save everywhere on the table, if deployed in a 4+ cover save, it gets improved to 3+. a small 3'' zone around the model base is treated as difficul terrain, to reflect razor wire, holes, mines... The HW platoons have less guardsmen (read: wounds) than standard platoons, so are more fragile. They are often shooted first and destroyed easily. I know it makes them even more static, but they were already.
- Platoon drill. As the rumours special rule. This one allows squad of the same platoon to shoot through each other, without malus.
- S5 def. weapons. See ahead.

The officer
- Ogryn bodyguard. The officer can now take 1 Ogryn bodyguard in his command squad, which basically is the same as Nork Deddog, if you remember.
- Officer arm. I made this set of rules to represent the strategic level of the army. 10 arms are available: Infantry (+V), Armoured, Assault engineers (+V), Drop troops (+V), Grenadiers, Jungle fighters, Light infantry, Mechanized troops (+V), Rough riders, Siege troops (+V). (+V) means this arm may have Veterans status. It makes 15 different army structures to choose between.
As example, Drop troops allow the deep strike rule for every infantry unit, but forbid the choice of tanks for the player.
- Officer wargear. I made some changes to them, Regiment standard gives now fearless, medipack gives FNP special rule, and so on

Enginseer
He becomes an advisor w/ a retinue of 3 servitors (gun servitor, combat servitor, technical servitor). He has 2 rules: machine-god blessing, which is the same as the current rule, and machine-god curse, which allows the enginseer to make damages in close combat to vehicles.

Ogryns
I added to them the FNP special rule, to avoid making them T5. They just died too easily. They stay at 25 pts, and the bone 'ead can get a power weapon.

Infantry platoon
The standard structure is 1 command squad (30 pts) + 2-5 infantry squads (40 pts) + 0-1 hardened vets (8 pts per model).
This way vets are troops, and can capture, hold objectives. As I said in my introduction post, this format is self-limitating, because you must take 1 whole platoon to have 1 hardened vets squad.
- Platoon-wide special rules. They represent the tactic level of the army: Iron discipline makes the platoon stubborn, Fire support teams allows you to split HW teams from their squads, and Attached units allows up to 2 other units to benefit from Platoon drill rule. Platoons may be personnalized to morale issues, mobility or firepower. They each have a cost, the better your troops are, the more expensive they are.
- Squad-wide special rules. They reprensent the operational level of the army, and are small special rules to personnalize ever more each squad.
I said it in my intro post, they each are made to reinforce the squad in 1 of the basic infantry characteristics: mobility, firevolume, precision, firepower, resilience, morale, close combat. Note that each squad may have warrior weapons for free, carapaces for +10pts, vox and Chimera transport.
- Hardened vets. They have BS4 and infiltrate, may have 3 special weapons (4 with well-supplied special rule), and craftfield skills such as: scouts, move through cover, tank hunters...
- Chimera. is now 60 pts w/ multi-laser and hull HB, Side AV11. they may upgrade their weapons.

Sentinels squadron
Independent vehicles. It allows the sentinels of the same squadron to be deployed separatly and to shoot at different targets. HB and Multi-melta options have been added.

Vehicles squadrons
- Salamanders, LRBT and Basilisks come now in squadrons, thus taking 1 slot in the FOC. They follow the squadron rules, nerfing this way the S5 defensive weapon rule.
- Armoured company vehicle upgrades. Basically the same rules that the Armoured company list, but cheaper. I found weird that a 155 pts LRBT could afford 90 pts of near inefficient special rules.


Please discuss! Critics are welcome.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-08-2008, 13:17
So, tell me.

Whats the logic behind allowing Sentinels to deploy seperately and shoot at seperate targets? Have the Imperial Guard suddenly suffered a lack of Heavy Weapons?

Ogryns...why a Power Weapon on the Bone'ead? And as for Feel No Pain...you said they died too easily to powerfists...FNP doesn't help with that. And tell me, please, exactly what doesn't tend to get chinned reliably off a Powerfist?

And why allow entrenchment of Heavy Weapons? Thats just throwing any and all tactical placement of them straight out the window, as they will simply now go for the area with the best LoS, rather than risking a slightly lower kill rate by going into cover...

Hate to say it, but it strikes me a lot of your changes are proposed to cover tactical decisions the player should have to make.

Luckywallace
16-08-2008, 14:32
My opinion on things is that the Guard are over-costed but bringing them down to 4pts is just a little too low (and could make Guard even more of an effort to collect).

I would say 5 pts is more like it.

I like the idea of giving Stormtroopers assault weapons, but I would say S3, Assault 2, AP5 would be about right. If they clock in at 10 points, with deepstrike and such a gun they would be pretty nasty without ever moving into Space Marine territory.

chadenej
16-08-2008, 16:47
Whats the logic behind allowing Sentinels to deploy seperately and shoot at seperate targets? Have the Imperial Guard suddenly suffered a lack of Heavy Weapons?

Good point. I often seen players choosing 3 sentinels squadrons with only 1 sentinel in each, thus making "independent vehicles" but taking 3 slots in the FOC. This rule is only made to avoid that. Sentinels are not overpowered by themselves. Maybe I should add some limitations.


Ogryns...why a Power Weapon on the Bone'ead? And as for Feel No Pain...you said they died too easily to powerfists...FNP doesn't help with that. And tell me, please, exactly what doesn't tend to get chinned reliably off a Powerfist?

Right, FNP doesn't avoid Ogryns getting killed with PF. Ogryns are too fragile to resist in close combat for what they are intended. They are heavy brute beasts and with a little help of adrenalyn, FNP is the right special rule for them. It makes them more resilient without tweaking their stats which are fine. Why I add a power weapon to the Bone 'ead? Because Ogryns squad often hit, wound, but cannot pass through the armour save of the opposing squad.


And why allow entrenchment of Heavy Weapons? Thats just throwing any and all tactical placement of them straight out the window, as they will simply now go for the area with the best LoS, rather than risking a slightly lower kill rate by going into cover...

That's not a free option. I made it cost 30 pts per squad, which makes a 3 lascannons heavy weapons squad cost 115 pts, 6 men, BS3 and 4+ cover save (still vulnerable to templates). This upgrade with this cost is not a no-brainer.


My opinion on things is that the Guard are over-costed but bringing them down to 4pts is just a little too low (and could make Guard even more of an effort to collect). I would say 5 pts is more like it.

4 or 5 pts, the Guardsman cost must be lowered. It depends how the squad-wide special rules are costed. maybe 4,5 pts per guardsman (45 pts per squad).


I like the idea of giving Stormtroopers assault weapons, but I would say S3, Assault 2, AP5 would be about right. If they clock in at 10 points, with deepstrike and such a gun they would be pretty nasty without ever moving into Space Marine territory.

Medium or long range? if the range is 18'', it's still pretty dangerous (read: vulnerable to assaults) to have ST. The hellgun is still a S3 weapon. Make it assault2 24'', and it can shoot 1 turn more than assault3 18''. It should be tested.