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Emperor's Avenger
09-08-2008, 15:11
Firstly, a question about Legion by Dan Abnett. As I understood it, the Cabal told Alpharius to join Horus, so that the Imperium would fall, Chaos would win and then annihilate itself, thus destroying humanity and Chaos in the process and making the galaxy safer for the other races.

However, as we know, Alpharius did fight for Horus, yet the alternate bad future where Chaos eventually conquers the galaxy after Horus' defeat is slowing coming true - does this make the prophecy wrong?

Secondly, reading the book made me reconsider the motives and position of the Alpha Legion. They are represented as Chaos Space Marines, and the models wear Chaos insignia, yet we now know that they were fighting against Chaos initially, so what are they trying to achieve? Personally, I think that they are agents of the Cabal, conspiring for their own ends?

Also, how Chaosified are the Alpha Legion? As I said, they are depicted as normal Chaos Marines, albeit with the mysterious and deceptive traits, but given the new revelations this doesn't make sense.

The_Warsmith
09-08-2008, 15:18
their mostly still loyal to the emperor (which explains their battle cry of "for the emperor!")

however after 10,000 years of being hunted and lurking too close to the warp (ok they don't hang out in the eye of terror but some of the legion are bound to have ended up there for a short while) they have slowly chaotified and it wouldn't surprise me if a few squads or companies have forgotten about the cabal and have turned fully to chaos

PondaNagura
09-08-2008, 15:28
it was less of a prophecy and more of a potential vision of things to come, similar SPOILER

to how Erebus deceived Horus in the vision of the future, in his coma state.

END SPOILER

also there's probably gonna be a later book discussing the possibility as to 'what went wrong'.

NearsightedFarseer
09-08-2008, 15:29
I have an alpha legion chaos lord, just add some relevent fluff (attacked and desperate for any help, betrayed and/or tricked by someone/something, etc...).

Mechanicus
09-08-2008, 16:04
Who says the Alpha Legion were loyal to the Emperor? I'd certainly say they're loyal to the main goal of the Emperor - the continuation of humanity, but the Emperor himself? More questionable. Look at the plot of Legion: they infiltrated and played both sides of the war. Then look at their stated ideals: the maintenance of humanity's flaws. What does that mean? Perhaps you've heard of the Isstvanian ideology in Inquisitor; strengthening the Imperium through war, keeping the Imperium alive through constant trials by fire. Somewhat telling, then, that the likely architects of the Isstvanian drop site massacre were the Alpha Legion. And, of course, Chaos is part of the flaw of humanity; the Alpha Legion wouldn't destroy it.

But to do this, they had to be, ostensibly at least, on the side of Horus, and infiltrate both sides for the sake of humanity as a whole. And once Chaos takes you, it does not let go. So, yes. The Alpha Legion belong to Chaos, but they work for one of the goals of the Emperor (arguably the most important) - the continuation of humanity.

They didn't blindly follow the Cabal, however. It looks to me like they forged their third way by reneging on their agreement with the Cabal.

Richter Kless
09-08-2008, 20:12
People just keep saying that the Alpha Legion doesn't reside in the Eye of Terror. But why does my codex clearly say otherwise?
'Over the centuries, the Alpha Legion have used this method of warfare to pull Imperial Forces to neighbouring sectors, before attacking in force, their warships and ruthless soldiers pouring out of the Eye of Terror to assail a now unprotected world.' (page 21 of the english, 4th edition, Chaos Space marines codex)

To me this clearly proves that the Alpha Legion resides in the Eye and quite frankly, to me they seem to be not one bit better than all the other traitors.

Mechanicus
09-08-2008, 20:43
...and quite frankly, to me they seem to be not one bit better than all the other traitors. I completely agree - just to add to my argument, I've retrieved this quote from the Inquisitor rulebook:


It is the goal of the Istvaanians to strengthen humanity through adversity, believing that humanity is at its strongest in times of turmoil and conflict. From periods of greatest upheaval have come the greatest leaps forward in technology, faith and galactic dominance. Did not the Horus Heresy weed out those Marines disloyal to the Emperor? Did not the Age of Apostasy herald the coming of Sebastian Thor and the reformation of the Ecclesiarchy? Did not the great battles fought by Machariusí armies shine like a great torch in the dark times of the early 41st millennium! These are the arguments they put forward. The Istvaanians claim that only when it is hardest tested does Mankind show the true strength that lies within it.

To this end, the Istvaanians endeavour to propagate strife and conflict for Mankindís own greater future. Istvaanians fan the fires of war and hatred so that Mankind will stay vigilant, that its warriors will be skilled and ready, and so none will believe that they have done all they can. They are a bombastic and obvious creed, flaunting their warmongering ways, instilling those nearby with fiery zeal to fight for themselves and the rest of Mankind. They pit faction against faction, world against world, so that the survivors will be the stronger for it.

Istvaanians will stir up trouble wherever they go, working on the phobias and prejudices of Imperial commanders, military officers and the general populace to breed superstition, suspicion and violence. They work well with destabilisation and terrorist cults and foster relationships with violent pro-Imperial cults. Quite often they will build up the power of these secret societies and sects, only to reveal the threat that they pose to the authorities, urging the faithful to bring torch and sword to purge the corruption within. Istvaanians are found in all Ordos of the Inquisition, each extolling the terrors and dangers posed by the forces they face.Considering that the methods of Istvaanian Inquisitors and Chaos worshippers, especially those of Tzeentch, are pretty much identical (if to achieve different results), I see no particular reason why they wouldn't just do as Chaos does, just encouraging the Imperium to respond a little more. For the most part, the Alpha Legionaries involved wouldn't even have to believe in the Istvaanian cause to effect the goal of Alpharius.

Feor
10-08-2008, 01:33
The Alpha Legion belong to Chaos, but they work for one of the goals of the Emperor (arguably the most important) - the continuation of humanity.

Except that hte reason the Alpha Legion turned on the Emperor was specifically in order to destroy humanity and bring about the end of Chaos.

As to why it didn't work, The Cabal was far from the only force at work behind the scenes of the Heresy. Apart from the Emperor and the Big 4, you've also got the uncertain goals of the Watchers in the Dark (possibly orchestrating the actions of the DA so that they couldn't help Horus, they are semi-benevolent warp entities, so the "end of chaos" section of the vision probably doesn't appeal to them that much) and who knows what else with a hand in it. (Eldar Farseers less forward seeing than the Cabal spring to mind)

Being able to see the future and try to steer it in your favour is great, as long as no body else is doing the same thing around you.

Faustburg
10-08-2008, 02:28
Being able to see the future and try to steer it in your favour is great, as long as no body else is doing the same thing around you.

Or to put it another way; seein the future is pointless, as that would mean there would be nothing you could do about it anyway! Seing potential futures and try to influence events to make the one you want come true is what's useful...

The Cabal, after consulting Eldar Farseers, came to the conclusion that Chaos could be defeated by destroying the Imperium. Getting the Alpha Legion to side with Horus could potentially tip the scale in the rebels favour.

Pika_power
10-08-2008, 08:11
Alpha legion is chaos.

None of you get it. They don't work behind the scenes. They chose chaos, and turned to chaos. You cannot just pretend to be chaos. It is all consuming. Turning to chaos for them was just slightly different, as it was because they wanted to destroy chaos they did it.

ryng_sting
10-08-2008, 09:40
Chaos uses those who would use it. Besides, if Horus's victory meant the destruction of the Chaos gods, wouldn't they have steered clear of him?

Allen
10-08-2008, 10:07
People just keep saying that the Alpha Legion doesn't reside in the Eye of Terror. But why does my codex clearly say otherwise?
'Over the centuries, the Alpha Legion have used this method of warfare to pull Imperial Forces to neighbouring sectors, before attacking in force, their warships and ruthless soldiers pouring out of the Eye of Terror to assail a now unprotected world.' (page 21 of the english, 4th edition, Chaos Space marines codex)

To me this clearly proves that the Alpha Legion resides in the Eye and quite frankly, to me they seem to be not one bit better than all the other traitors.


It's clearly stated in different sources that the Alpha Legion moved en masse to the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy during and after the Horus Heresy for unknow reasons. That's the classical inconsistence of GW background materials...they're here because is cool! No, they're here because it's a lot more cool! They're doing that for this reason...no, wait, they're doing this for that reason!

God bless the naive fools that write fluff in GW :D

Feor
10-08-2008, 12:25
Chaos uses those who would use it. Besides, if Horus's victory meant the destruction of the Chaos gods, wouldn't they have steered clear of him?

Did you read Legion? The Alpha Legion was given two possible futures: Join Horus, help him win, and the Chaos Gods will be destroyed. Or stay with the Emperor, Horus loses, though it costs the Imperium greatly, and in 10,000-20,000 years Chaos takes over the Galaxy. Alpharius said that he knew the Emperor's greatest ambition was to see the Chaos Gods destroyed, and he shared it, so he joined Horus to make that happen.

As to the Alpha Legion being fully Chaos now, I'm sure some are. The Legion split up into semi-independant cells, AFAIK, after the Heresey, so some could easily have turned. Some could just be non-chaos renegades at this point. Despite what the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy would have you believe, not following the Imperium does not automatically make you a chaos cultist.

Mechanicus
10-08-2008, 13:03
Did you read Legion? The Alpha Legion was given two possible futures: Join Horus, help him win, and the Chaos Gods will be destroyed. Or stay with the Emperor, Horus loses, though it costs the Imperium greatly, and in 10,000-20,000 years Chaos takes over the Galaxy. Alpharius said that he knew the Emperor's greatest ambition was to see the Chaos Gods destroyed, and he shared it, so he joined Horus to make that happen.You're assuming the Cabal was telling the truth and/or correct. And, for that matter, that Alpharius was telling the truth when he agreed to it. Given that this is a book with the subtitle 'secrets and lies', I think a bit of doubt is reasonable, especially where two highly secretive, manipulative and duplicitous organisations get together to have a talk.

Delicious Soy
10-08-2008, 13:07
Did you read Legion? The Alpha Legion was given two possible futures: Join Horus, help him win, and the Chaos Gods will be destroyed. Or stay with the Emperor, Horus loses, though it costs the Imperium greatly, and in 10,000-20,000 years Chaos takes over the Galaxy. Alpharius said that he knew the Emperor's greatest ambition was to see the Chaos Gods destroyed, and he shared it, so he joined Horus to make that happen.You make it sound like the cabal were the be all and end all of truth telling. frankly, what was to stop the cabal from engineering the downfall of humanity so as to permit to continuation of the ancient races? the only perspectives we see of the cabal are the perceptions of humans, hardly the people they're going to admit their more base desires to.

Also, call me crazy but by the end of novel:

Alpharius may have been eager for the whole 'turn on the emperor for the emperor' thing but Omegon sounded far less convinced.

Richter Kless
10-08-2008, 13:27
It's clearly stated in different sources that the Alpha Legion moved en masse to the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy during and after the Horus Heresy for unknow reasons. That's the classical inconsistence of GW background materials...they're here because is cool! No, they're here because it's a lot more cool! They're doing that for this reason...no, wait, they're doing this for that reason!

God bless the naive fools that write fluff in GW :D

Could you please show some sources that tell this?
When push comes to shove, the codices and the rulebook are 'true' canon and all the other works either follow that canon or put their credibility at risk.

Feor
10-08-2008, 14:14
When push comes to shove, the codices and the rulebook are 'true' canon and all the other works either follow that canon or put their credibility at risk.

Actually, everything is true, but everything is told from an in-universe perspective, so none of it is true. The person writting the fluff in the Codex (the in-universe character, not the real world author) could well have believed the Alpha Legion must come from the Eye, since that's where Chaos Marines live, while the person (in universe again) writing about the Legion moving to the Eastern Fringe could be reporting on numerous sightings of Alpha Legion marines moving further and further east. The wonderful thing about 40K fluff is that even when they tell you something straight up, you have to take it with a grain of salt, so you can imagine the universe in any way you wish to.


You're assuming the Cabal was telling the truth and/or correct. And, for that matter, that Alpharius was telling the truth when he agreed to it.

Won't argue that for a minute. Legion is so wheels within wheels I wouldn't be surprised to learn Alpharius was a founding member of the Cable, who were actually the chaos gods in disguise, and the whole thing was one giant multi-century-long drama to convince Gramaticus to kill himself. :p

However, in the context of Ryng's statement, He asked why'd they help Horus if it'd result in the death of the Chaos Gods, I presented the reason as it was given. And would like to add that, as far as we know, up until they destroy the fleet over Hydra Cordatus the Alpha Legion was a loyalist legion, with no evidence to the contrary, and so would be quite interested in the death of the Chaos Gods.

Mechanicus
10-08-2008, 18:47
However, in the context of Ryng's statement, He asked why'd they help Horus if it'd result in the death of the Chaos Gods, I presented the reason as it was given. And would like to add that, as far as we know, up until they destroy the fleet over Hydra Cordatus the Alpha Legion was a loyalist legion, with no evidence to the contrary, and so would be quite interested in the death of the Chaos Gods.Oh, I see. My response was also partially in reference to your other post in the thread ("Except that hte reason the Alpha Legion turned on the Emperor was specifically in order to destroy humanity and bring about the end of Chaos." (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2852316&postcount=8)) but I figured your most recent response meant the same.

ryng_sting
10-08-2008, 19:29
Did you read Legion? The Alpha Legion was given two possible futures: Join Horus, help him win, and the Chaos Gods will be destroyed. Or stay with the Emperor, Horus loses, though it costs the Imperium greatly, and in 10,000-20,000 years Chaos takes over the Galaxy.



By backing Horus, the Chaos gods are unknowingly committing suicide. Now, this is what some folks call a conflict of interests.

Wolf Scout Ewan
10-08-2008, 20:22
The Cabal and the Eldar seem to suffer from a wierd sort of myopeia when it comes to predicting the future. They seem to only see what they "want" to see.

Here lets bury this uber deamon/lost chaos power on this here planet.

100k years later planet has become an imperial world and so they have to go back and start a war to stop the deamon getting out.

"I just wish my great great great great grandfather had just banished badass deamon to the warp!" ... "Oh woe is us we lost too many of our people!"

Us Monkeigh might be backward and a bit weedy but hey at least we needed help to craee Chaos Gods... those Eldar did it all on their own!

Look at the Ctan - Necrons. They went to sleep and the eldar did what? A grand total of naff all, unless you count the aforementioned Slaanesh thing. I would have gathered as many Craftworlds together and methodically wiped the tomb worlds from the face of reality.

Askari
10-08-2008, 21:51
By backing Horus, the Chaos gods are unknowingly committing suicide. Now, this is what some folks call a conflict of interests.

But Horus lost.

Ergo, the Chaos Gods, according to the prophecy, will reign supreme in 10-20,000 years after the Heresy.

Which, in the 40k timeline, is just about... now.

Which might indeed be the point, the Cabal tried to influence things to destroy Chaos, but the Big 4 decided to influence things in their favour, i.e. sacrificing their prized possession.

Glabro
11-08-2008, 00:13
Okay.
So, imagine yourself being a powerful, highly intelligent individual (well, except for sharing two bodies) who always needs to be in control of the situation. You are very loyal to your principles and as Humanity, as well.

You're given two bad choices by a bunch of aliens. What do you do?

....Choose option C, of course.

The Alpha Legion is simply playing both Chaos and the Cabal (though the Cabal at least has long ago realized this) while doing the very best to bring about humanity's salvation, be it in the form of an actual God-Emperor or something else.

Their actions during the Heresy fully support this. As for what became of them after that and what they are doing now, who knows?

Wolf Scout Ewan
11-08-2008, 14:34
One of the twins died without the balance of the other twin they fell to Chaos.

Feor
11-08-2008, 15:24
Assuming one of them died. Alpharius/Omegron seems to have been rather short for a Primarch (No despcriptions of how he towered over his fellows like with the others, just that he was tall) and didn't wear particularly ornate armour. Robute killed a space marine, roughly the same size as Alpharius, wearing a full suit of armour, in one hit. It's just as likely it was a random terminator following AL SOP and calling himself "Alpharius".

MagrukWikkid
11-08-2008, 15:43
Chaos uses those who would use it. Besides, if Horus's victory meant the destruction of the Chaos gods, wouldn't they have steered clear of him?

There was that possibility, but think of what was on offer - 9 legions of Space Marines, veterans of the Great Crusade, not to mention their Primarchs, the Titan Legions that turned and the Imperial Army units that went with the legions. Probably worth the risk...

MagrukWikkid
11-08-2008, 15:53
Assuming one of them died. Alpharius/Omegron seems to have been rather short for a Primarch (No despcriptions of how he towered over his fellows like with the others, just that he was tall) and didn't wear particularly ornate armour. Robute killed a space marine, roughly the same size as Alpharius, wearing a full suit of armour, in one hit. It's just as likely it was a random terminator following AL SOP and calling himself "Alpharius".

Alpharius does seem to have been a bit of a wimp - that soldier guys stabs him up after all. I mean, I know he doesn't do any real damage to the Primarch, but really? Look at Horus when he takes on all those Plaguebearers - he minces them. Alpharius takes a hit from a unenhanced bloke?

But still, I do like the idea of Roboute getting the wrong guy.

Wazzahamma
11-08-2008, 16:11
Alpharius/Omegron seems to have been rather short for a Primarch (No despcriptions of how he towered over his fellows like with the others, just that he was tall) and didn't wear particularly ornate armour. Robute killed a space marine, roughly the same size as Alpharius, wearing a full suit of armour, in one hit.

Erm...this space marine that Roboute killed was stated in the IA to have been equal in stature to Roboute.Therefore contradicting your assertion about Alpharius' height.

I really hate this fan BS about Alpharius/Omegon's shortness that has cropped up on the net...

Askari
11-08-2008, 16:41
It even says in Legion that Omegon, and therefore Alpharius, is taller than the average marine.

And that's what Primarchs are.... taller than the average marine.
They weren't massive, save perhaps Magnus, who was a Giant.

setekhite
11-08-2008, 20:04
Erm...this space marine that Roboute killed was stated in the IA to have been equal in stature to Roboute.Therefore contradicting your assertion about Alpharius' height.

I really hate this fan BS about Alpharius/Omegon's shortness that has cropped up on the net...

Amongst the Alpha Legion in the book is a particularly tall Terminator captain, who acts as Omegon's double. The book does make a point of emphasising how Alpharius / Omegon aren't that much taller than their colleagues; even the supposed expert Grammaticus emphasizes how his 'gifts' allow him to distinguish the Primarch. Perhaps Alpharius' less-godlike stature is why his character and Legion developed as they did.

Anyway, it's just a possibility that Alpharius survived.

Narf
11-08-2008, 20:55
As a side note the fluff can still fit re eye of terror and eastern fringe locations.

2 primarchs, two locations.

I'm sure i remember some of the fluff from a while back stating that most of the AL in the 40k era were new recruits, that they were actively intergrated within the imperium as sleeper cells and hidden fortresses, and on at least one occasion had used a marine chapters recruiting planet to infiltrate there own pawns into the chapter as marines (ie scout selections and mindwashing) before triggering the pawns and almost destroying the chapter many years after the unknowing scouts had been moved to being marines in full.

Also i've read somewhere that the AL take great care in rooting out the Word bearers cults and destroying them. This could be viewed as either vying for limited resources on a planet, or loyalist's still working from within, replacing the WB Chaos cult, with the AL cult, ie changed chaos for unknown secrecy.

Lastly, anyone else remember the hydra conspiracy from the Inquisitor books by ian watson (Inquisitor, harlequin and chaos child reprinted as the inquisition wars).

lets see:

1) Aliens using humans to do their dirty work (eldar recruiting pyscher's, preferably warp tainted, and removing the taint to make them stronger, ie un possesing them, but leaving them with a feeling of the infinate) - Cabal, jon grammaticus?

2) Warp entity mindwashing hive world, but not turning them to Chaos (made the workers act as one, and when one part was destroyed it grew another, or moved worlds) - using chaos against chaos?

3) Hidden cabal of inquisitors and possibly Aliens working humanity to make them stronger, and remove the weakness of chaos, (whilst also trying to find the emperors lost sons to sacrifice to him to bring him back to the world of the living, not primarch sons, but actual people, the emporer had needs to your know ;) ) - Istvaanian inquisitors?

If you read that trilogy (well 1st two books, think ian watson lost the plot a bit in the end, though ive heard its because he wanted to make a series of books and GW wouldnt let him, so he killed the plot off in that last one, along with most of the characters so GW couldnt use them) you get the idea that maybe the legion book is trying to point out that AL are still active in the 40k universe as a defence against Chaos. (though since i believe its long out of print, and alot of the fluff has changed since then its unlikely to be brought back, but it can make the older peeps happy, in our own special ways)

Anyhoo's enough ramblings, discuss :)

NARF

Glabro
12-08-2008, 01:06
I have a theory of what the AL is doing currently (besides the whole God-Emperor/ Star Child theory).

By inciting cultist uprisings, they are rooting out weaknesses within the Imperium. The preferred targets are weak-willed people ruled over by an incompetent keader. The resulting uprising eventually cleanses both the flawed populace and leadership when the Imperium responds. Their operations also serve to temper the mettle of their opponents as well as test their stratagems (by using unorthodox methods).

Wazzahamma
12-08-2008, 13:46
Amongst the Alpha Legion in the book is a particularly tall Terminator captain, who acts as Omegon's double.

Sheed is amazingly large for even a Space Marine, and even then, he needs to wear terminator armour to match his Primarchs in size.



The book does make a point of emphasising how Alpharius / Omegon aren't that much taller than their colleagues;

You'll need to supply me with a quote/s of this "point".



even the supposed expert Grammaticus emphasizes how his 'gifts' allow him to distinguish the Primarch.

Read again. It's always immediately obvious who the Primarch is when he is undisguised and in the room with a fellow marine. There is no comparison. The comparison is between the twins themselves. Grammaticus' 'gifts' allow him to see that Omegon and Alpharius are identical, rather than to simply tell them apart from their astartes. It's a different point.

The most telling difference between the twins and their 19 brothers isn't this silly height misconception, but that they somehow manage to dull their natural "demi-god" aura and charisma that would instantaneously give them away (even if they were only 3ft tall) to anyone no matter what.

ChaosBeast
16-08-2008, 12:41
One of the twins died without the balance of the other twin they fell to Chaos.

can you provide any proof for this?

i believe that they stayed 'loyal' in the hope of horus's victory and then when horus lost they realised mankind was doomed and probably assumed the cabal had lied to them, and weakened by grief at the loss of Alpharius and the inevitable doom of mankind, they gave in to chaos.

Feor
16-08-2008, 12:58
Read again. It's always immediately obvious who the Primarch is when he is undisguised and in the room with a fellow marine. There is no comparison. The comparison is between the twins themselves. Grammaticus' 'gifts' allow him to see that Omegon and Alpharius are identical, rather than to simply tell them apart from their astartes. It's a different point.

The most telling difference between the twins and their 19 brothers isn't this silly height misconception, but that they somehow manage to dull their natural "demi-god" aura and charisma that would instantaneously give them away (even if they were only 3ft tall) to anyone no matter what.

I think the trick is that when armoured, others couldn't tell the Primarch apart from the other marines of his legion. As I understand it (and pardon me if I'm wrong) Guilliman killed "Alpharius" while he was fully armoured, then was immediatly set upon by Fulgrim. Therefore we only know Guilliman killed a marine calling himself Alpharius, who was physically indistinguishable from the Primarch in his armour, and never had a chance to take off his helmet and confirm his kill.

So all the arguments about his exact height and such seems to be moot, everything we've seen from Legion gives Alpharius an out on getting himself offed by Guilliman, which was the original point of the argument anyways. :p

The_Warsmith
16-08-2008, 13:53
Chaos uses those who would use it. Besides, if Horus's victory meant the destruction of the Chaos gods, wouldn't they have steered clear of him?

it was all part of tzeentch's grand plan, hes played off all the legions against each other (bringing suffering and souls to the chaos gods) and then betrayed Horus and probably the other gods by bringing about his downfall but chaos loosing means they win so chaos wins even though they lost...just shows you how much of a bastard tzeentch is and how elaborate his plans are

horus lowering the shields on his ship orbiting terra makes perfect sence now, the chaos gods had to stop him before he buggered things up

Eetion
16-08-2008, 14:32
I think the trick is that when armoured, others couldn't tell the Primarch apart from the other marines of his legion. As I understand it (and pardon me if I'm wrong) Guilliman killed "Alpharius" while he was fully armoured, then was immediatly set upon by Fulgrim. Therefore we only know Guilliman killed a marine calling himself Alpharius, who was physically indistinguishable from the Primarch in his armour, and never had a chance to take off his helmet and confirm his kill.

So all the arguments about his exact height and such seems to be moot, everything we've seen from Legion gives Alpharius an out on getting himself offed by Guilliman, which was the original point of the argument anyways. :p


Well that was the battle for Eskrador... 'Alpharius' did die, and no Fulgrim wasnt there, Guilleman had time to sneak a peak at Alpharius.... But ended up getting spanked all the way back to Macragge by the rest of the 'leaderless' Alpha Legion.

But....

There is still no absolutely positive evidence that the battle ever took place. Other than the discredited unproven ramblings put forward by an Inquisitor accused and suspected of being an Alpha Legion culitist.

djinn8
17-08-2008, 14:17
Seems simple to me. The Cabal saw the two possible futures and swayed the Alphas to join the heresy, but it simply wasn't enough to turn the tide. I don't remember anything in the book stating that the Heresy WOULD suceed if the Alpha Legion helped, only help raise its chance for success.

MaiRousi
17-08-2008, 20:15
What IA is the article that says roboute killed alpharius?

Lord Zarkov
17-08-2008, 20:32
The Alpha Legion one

Malevon
17-08-2008, 20:59
In IA IV, it says even Guilliman wasn't sure he had killed the right man. As someone above me said, standard operating procedure for Alpha Legionnaires is to pose as Alpharius to any outsiders. Fulgrim was not present though, I don't know where that came from.

Even if Alpharius did die, (which he didn't, because they simply wouldn't include details that the Ultramarines doubted it was really him if it was) the point of the Alpha Legion is that their organization is like a hydra; you can cut off a head, and it still operates. Had Alpharius died, Omegon would not have truly turned to Chaos. They were described as "one soul in two bodies." They were of one mind.

As for whether or not they are now fully turned to Chaos, I believe the answer is no. Alpha Legion cells operate independently, and it isn't necessary for the average marine to know the machinations of their leaders. However, the fact that they actively route out and destroy Word Bearer cults, assuming whoever cited this earlier in the thread is reliable, points to them not being very devoted to the worship of Chaos.

I am confused, however, if the current goal of the Alpha Legion is still to bring about the destruction of humanity, and Chaos with it. It seems like their goal is the opposite; to strengthen humanity by routing out the weak links.

I understand that Chaos makes a tool of those who would make a tool of it, but I think if anyone could succeed at using Chaos as a tool without becoming a slave to it, it's the Alpha Legion.

ss_cherubael
18-08-2008, 03:52
interesting discussion here, but i think that everyone here who is asking about the loyalty of the AL is missing something huge. Legion by Abnett has been written in the last year and now forms a rather solid base of information on the AL and their primarch. Now everything you compare this to has been written in the past with out this base and if you retrospectively apply Legion to all the other information out there it will not make sense. As such there is little point to discussing whether they are still loyal or not as the existing background and new info wont mesh at all and leads to these sort of discussions.

Basically there will be those out there who want the AL to be this awesome and different Legion who are loyal to the emperors ideal but cant be welcomed back as they sided with Horus to kill chaos. I think this is a pretty naive view of what the AL is, they are mass murdering rogues at best, chaos scum at worst. The thing about human or ever astrates reasoning is that we can convince ourselves to do anything for any reason and i believe that even if 10k yrs ago the AL sided with Horus and the Cabal to rid the universe of chaos they are probably not doing that now. Also look at the organisation of the AL in 40k this is a legion that split itself up so that one hand didnt know what the other was doing, so yeah its possible that a cell or several cells are working for the emperors original idea and the cabal, while the rest could have just as easily thrown their lot in with the chaos gods.

As for Alpharius, well he probably isnt dead at all, not that it matters, heres why: the alpha legion is a hydra cut one head off and another two appears, in reality this means that they tend to operate in cells without a single cohesive body. This means there is no use for a primarch in the traditional sense, and this is even more of the case when the AL are all considered to be Alpharius to outsiders.

Look at the other legions or chapters as they become, these legions look to their primarch for leadership to be a bright shining figure in the night, to rally the troops and show them the way. The Alpha Legion doesnt need this, they lead themselves without needing a guiding light or someone to rally to in tough fights. Alpharius pasted imparting his ideas and doctrine is obsolete, as such it matters little if Gulliman killed him or another AL the legion wouldnt care and wouldnt be damaged any more than if they lost any other brother. Think about it, if you dont use something and then you lose it, do you really care? Also any Alpha legionnaire can step into their primarchs shoes and fulfill his role just as well as he did.

think about it

abasio
18-08-2008, 07:57
If I got anything from "Legion" it was that nothing was quite what it seemed. The tag line secrets and lies fit perfectly & made me wonder if anything any of the cabal or the AL said was true. All I can be sure about is that powerful entities have long term plans that may take tens of thousands of years to come to fruition.
Maybe the AL are weening out humanities weak points. Maybe the Chaos gods planned on Horus failing, the plan being just to tear the imperium apart. Maye the emperor foresaw the whole heresy & his ascension to the golden throne but saw it as the best way to continue the species survival. GW want things open to interpretation. That's what makes it interesting ;)

Glabro
18-08-2008, 14:34
I agree, Malevon. I see absolutely no support for solidarity and support for aliens in Alpharius, and heaps of it would be required to sacrifice your own race for the good of others.

straightsilver21
18-08-2008, 16:37
here a take on the cabals prophecy and what the alpha legion decide at the end of legion.

what if, alpharius and omegon came to choose a 'third' option. something else not considered by the cabal. something that lay inline with the emperors own plans.

think about it this way.

throughout the entire book abnett goes to great lengths to show how controlling the alpha legion are. alpharius and omegon only enter into a situation when they know they can completely control it themselves and shape it to their own ends and their own outcomes. we have an example of this with the war against the nurthene and the manipulation of the imperial army to serve the alpha legions battle plans and agendas.

second we have the way in which the alpha legion and the cabal finally meet.
the cabal planned a meeting and the alpha legion effectively tricks grammaticus into setting a trap to meet the cabal on their own terms. (who by the way if we remember is suppose to in all essence be a human lie detector, even still the legion outwit him and use him just like they use everyone else)

the cabal is basically a collection of far sighted seers, yet they get the timing of horus' promotion to warmaster and the time frame of the heresy a bit wrong. that and they cant seem to figure out the alpha legions motives and the way they work. so much so that they have to meet alpharius and omegon on their 'primarchs' own terms. so perhaps they saw the majority of the future, BUT alpharius and omegon (renowned for their battle tactics or attacking at all angles, using everything they can to achieve victory and finding holes where others cannot) find another alternative, or at least an amendment to the cabals choices.

it is also stated in the book, though i cant remember exactly how, that alpharius claims he knows the emperors frame of mind and motives. suggesting that perhaps alpharius and omegon were privy to information from the emperor that other legions were not. if that be so, then perhaps the emperor had a plan all along and that it took into account what the cabal told the alpha legion. and...he knew how to take care of it.

we have to then think what would it be, i like the idea that the emperor was pruning the race of man to create him as a god, just like the chaos gods tell horus, but to make him powerful enough to destroy them. enter he starchild theories. thus the emperor meant to put himself on the golden throne. so that the worship of him by the cult divinatus could enhance his presence in the warp to godhood. it was the emperor after all who told the custodes how to create the throne.

so alpharius and omegons decision at the end of legion was to help the emperor actually ascend to the golden throne at the culmination of the heresy. thus they side with horus, knowing itll take all the strength horus can muster to challenge the emperor. without the heresy though the emperor cannot ascend to the throne nor become an idol of worship in the time after his 'throning.'

when shown the vision of the future both omegon and alpharius are shocked, but are quickly persuaded. i found it hard to believe such stout warriors of the imperium of man would be turned that easily, in like 1 or two pages. it took fulgrim 1 book and horus 3. what they displayed was more like shock of realization. or a confirmation of information they may have been slightly privy to. its a shock of them realizing what they must do, and thus it only takes a look from brother primarch twin to twin for it to be agreed upon.

this would also help to explain i think what the alpha legion are up to in present day 40k. harassing the imperium, working for themselves. keeping the imperium just strong enough to keep feeding the emperor till one day he can finally be re-born as the starchild.

also it explains why i think the alpha legion didnt take a DIRECT involvement with the istvaan 5 fight or the siege of terra. and rather manipulated some minor events that would have big impacts on the outcome, like fighting the ultramarines and keeping them busy.

but, maybe im crazy.

about the base of operations for the alpha legion: if i remember correctly the IA article, which is one of a scant few fluff pieces about the legion besides the new abnett book, states that they are located on the eastern fringes, not the eye of terror.

Glabro
18-08-2008, 20:32
Straightsilver21,

glad to see you join the team. I just remarked in another thread how most people who are given two choices instantly stop thinking about alternatives because in their mind
they now only see those two choices (especially if the choices are well presented).

Alpharius is not that sort of person. He is no sheep. He's a control freak.

About naivete, the only naive thing in my mind is to assume everything is as it seems.

I also see no problem with the existing background meshing with Legion. Certainly Dan Abnett read all of it before he wrote it, and there's nothing that precludes them from being anything.

Certainly they are "mass murderers", they are pragmatists of the highest order. Certainly they incite cult uprisings - but to what end? In my mind, to "manage the flaws of mankind". Just like a fever, a cult uprising will burn for a time, but will die out and leave the body healthy and free of contagion.

Heck, I'm not saying that every single Alpha Legionnaire isn't a Chaos worshipper - their nature makes it impossible to know for certain, but I don't see it as an option any more likely than them being loyal to their original goals.

Malevon
19-08-2008, 00:09
Obviously the Alpha Legion are a bunch of mass-murderers; the question at hand is if they're doing this for the same reason as their fellow traitors or if it's all part of a master plan to strengthen the Imperium through trial-by-fire. To me, it seems the latter is more likely. As you can see by looking at any Inquisitor, Governor, or Officer in the Imperium, being a mass-murderer and being loyal to the Emperor are not mutually exclusive.

Allen
19-08-2008, 07:19
Are Alpha Legionnaires traitors?
Well, yes, they are indeed. They were traitors in the classical meaning of the term even before receiving the Vision of Acuity: think at the scene where (the supposed) Alpharius explain to a shocked human his legion theories about how the Emperor is ultimately wrong (and a naive, too) in his quest of creating a "perfect" society out of an "imperfect" species.

I agree with Straightsilver21: the supposed "turning" of the twin Primarchs is really too quick. Just a few lines, maybe a couple of pages. Speaking of a work of Abnett, that's not an author's error, or a goofy pre-printing cut of important scenes made by Black Library personnel to reduce the page lenght of the book (Descent of Angels anyone?).
IMHO the Alpha Legion Primarchs just received a confirmation of their theories (or of fears) during the Vision of Acuity. The Vision could be wrong, a possible future but just one between many others, could be tainted by Chaos or manipulated by the Cabal...that's not important. The Acuity just gave to Alpharius and Omegon a "casus belli" to continue on their path: they used the Vision to confirm their belief about the "third way".

They are presented a Vison that shows them two possible outcomes: a millennia-long agonising death of the human race or a quick death by the hand of Horus. They apparently choose the second one: they were at the Drop Site Massacre. They sided with Horus...but they relocated en masse on the Eastern Fringe, not partecipating at the Siege of Terra. They didn't aided the Word Bearers in their battles against the Ultramarines and let almost the entire reinforcements fleets of the White Scars pass without harm.


Are Alpha Legionnaires tainted by chaos?
Yes, indeed they are. Maybe they're not mutate by chaos or imbued by it like the other traitor legions, but they are indeed tainted by it. Their belief of "even the flaws of humanity must be mantained, not eradicated" is basically a big open door with a glowing sign "subtile chaos influence needed ASAP: please enter and ask of Alpharius and/or Omegon".
Probably they still think that they're saving the Imperium and Mankind. They probably think they're posing as traitors and/or chaos cultist...but ultimately they're corrupted by the Primordial Annhilator.

sheck2
19-08-2008, 14:16
...they used the Vision to confirm their belief about the "third way".

Are Alpha Legionnaires tainted by chaos?
Yes, indeed they are...They probably think they're posing as traitors and/or chaos cultist...but ultimately they're corrupted by the Primordial Annhilator.



Apply the same logic from the choices they made regarding Acuity to whether they are tainted by choas...

There are more than two choices (choice 1 = untainted by choas; choice 2 = tainted by choas)...the third choice = no choas. Necrons and tyranids are an example of a third choice. I think AL realizes/knows about a third choice...this does not mean they are 'necrons' or 'tyranids'.

If Al has to 'chose'...and the choices are Imperium/Emperor, choas, or 'other'; which would they chose?

In turn, once they chose...who do you make your ally? Who do you manipulate to 'win' or 'gain advantage'?

Two on one is always better than one on one. And allying yourself does not necessary mean agreeing or joining that side...

Alpharius
19-08-2008, 14:45
LEGION, while interesting, sure made a mess of things, didn't it?

It will be interesting to see where this leads, if in fact it is leading anywhere...

Allen
19-08-2008, 14:50
Apply the same logic from the choices they made regarding Acuity to whether they are tainted by choas...

There are more than two choices (choice 1 = untainted by choas; choice 2 = tainted by choas)...the third choice = no choas. Necrons and tyranids are an example of a third choice. I think AL realizes/knows about a third choice...this does not mean they are 'necrons' or 'tyranids'.

If Al has to 'chose'...and the choices are Imperium/Emperor, choas, or 'other'; which would they chose?

In turn, once they chose...who do you make your ally? Who do you manipulate to 'win' or 'gain advantage'?

Two on one is always better than one on one. And allying yourself does not necessary mean agreeing or joining that side...


Undobtley when they said "managing mankind with its inherent flaws" didn't mean "embrace chaos". I'm sure they are not aware of the corruption and truly believe to be free from the taint...but let's face it, even Horus was sure he was using the Chaos Gods and not vice versa. Even he was sure his actions were a necessary harm to mankind in order to assure its very esistance as a species and predominance as an united political and cultural organism in the Galaxy.

Chaos corruption is not a magical plague that let you grow tentacles or big red horns. What the present-day Imperium calls "Chaos" is a sentient (and malicious) reflection of the most basilar emotions of any sentient species..."chaos corruption" means that this sentient being(s) hold a firm grasp on your very soul and mind. Means that you're tricked or roused not only to act, but event to think in a way that fulfill the agenda of this malicious being(s). Betraying your father and your race being fully convinced it's a necessary evil seemed to be a standard recruitment procedure for chaos pawns during the Horus Heresy.

Given that, I think we can call Alpha Legion "chaos pawns". They're not Chaos followers (well, we're not sure about that but let's follow the most common interpretation of "Legion")...this means that they're working for the Primordial Annhilator, but they are not aware (or not fully aware) of that. Something among the lines of "all chaos followers are chaos pawns, but not every chaos pawn is a chaos follower", you know.

sheck2
19-08-2008, 17:54
Undobtley...you know.

Allen,

That presumes a bipolar universe...good or evil...left or right...not choas or chaos. That is a western approach to the universe.

I am suggesting that there may be 'something else or many elses' not just 'life' and the 'Primordial Annhilator'.

For example using the Tyranids...Your suggestion means that the Tyranid's actions feed the Primordial Annhilator. But do they?

Does choas 'possess' the tyranids like they do to humans, elder, etc.? It would seem to me that Tyranids are immune to the affects of choas.

I think of the Primordial Annhilator as part of a complex universe rather than one of the 'prime' components of it. Consider the Primordial Annhilator like virus.

Humans, elder, etc. might just be more susceptible to it...sort of like how different viruses affect different species...the Primordial Annhilator affects some types of being but not others.

The Primordial Annhilator feeds on certain types of sentient being emotions...and the C'Tan feed on the life force of the same types of beings...the enslaver's use sentient being to gain access to our universe...

Does a C'Tan feed the Primordial Annhilator? Would an enslaver feed the Primordial Annhilator?

So what is not choas is not necessarily choas...

Malevon
19-08-2008, 20:21
Undobtley when they said "managing mankind with its inherent flaws" didn't mean "embrace chaos". I'm sure they are not aware of the corruption and truly believe to be free from the taint...but let's face it, even Horus was sure he was using the Chaos Gods and not vice versa. Even he was sure his actions were a necessary harm to mankind in order to assure its very esistance as a species and predominance as an united political and cultural organism in the Galaxy.

Chaos corruption is not a magical plague that let you grow tentacles or big red horns. What the present-day Imperium calls "Chaos" is a sentient (and malicious) reflection of the most basilar emotions of any sentient species..."chaos corruption" means that this sentient being(s) hold a firm grasp on your very soul and mind. Means that you're tricked or roused not only to act, but event to think in a way that fulfill the agenda of this malicious being(s). Betraying your father and your race being fully convinced it's a necessary evil seemed to be a standard recruitment procedure for chaos pawns during the Horus Heresy.

Given that, I think we can call Alpha Legion "chaos pawns". They're not Chaos followers (well, we're not sure about that but let's follow the most common interpretation of "Legion")...this means that they're working for the Primordial Annhilator, but they are not aware (or not fully aware) of that. Something among the lines of "all chaos followers are chaos pawns, but not every chaos pawn is a chaos follower", you know.
Yes, it's definitely possible that they are a pawn of Chaos, but it's also possible that they have managed to use it without succumbing to it. The point of the Alpha Legion has always been that their true purposes are left open to interpretation. Legion adds another level of depth to it, but it doesn't change the nature of what Alpha Legion has been; any statement you make about their loyalties or purposes has to be followed by "or is it?".

SinCollector
19-08-2008, 23:07
I agree, Malevon. I see absolutely no support for solidarity and support for aliens in Alpharius, and heaps of it would be required to sacrifice your own race for the good of others.


It's not for the good of others. It's because they see the Emperor on the Golden Throne in a form of never-ending death. They see the ideals of his crusade twisted into exactly the opposite of what he wanted. They do it to SAVE the Emperor and humanity from an eternity of suffering. Basically, to save them from everything that 40K is--grim darkness, only war, uncaring bureaucracies, etc . . .

-Sin

straightsilver21
19-08-2008, 23:22
yes thats the thing though isnt it,... we cant look at it in terms of black and white, we all know 40k is the farthest thing from definitive answers in terms of the story.

i dont see why then it has to be a question of if they have been infected with chaos (whether they know it or not) or if they are still hundred percent ultramarine like loyal. as far as i know there are other armies and races in this galaxy that can be considered good or evil, black or white and of which arent chaos driven or imperium backed...tau, orks, eldar, nids, necrons...

and keeping with that idea, its equally silly i think to believe that for any stuation you only have two choices. such as the choices given to to alpharius and omegon through the acuity (again black and white). I think also based on their reaction to the acuity and the manner in which theyre 'convinced.' and that all-knowing nod alpharius gives to omegon, its plausible AT LEAST to think they thought of a third choice.

in fact it HAS to be at least entertained as a possible idea. the very nature of the alpha legion and their Primarchs backs this up.

also i dont think alpharius/omegon would be unwittingly working for chaos. even if chaos is a wily old goat. to say that a legion that prides itself on knowing more than their enemy, knowing and keeping secrets and manipulating events so that they are ALWAYS in control is being used without an inkling of an idea is a bit much i think.

i dont think they USE chaos at all in fact in the way we know other legions use chaos. sure they may pay off some cults here and there to stage raids. but the marines themselves are basic marines in game terms. they cannot directly use daemon packs and only cultists can summon them. a note of interest in this bit is that in that section of their special rules it states....

"the alpha legion cannot rely on daemons remaining stable for long enough for them to be USEFUL because they are SO FAR FROM THE EYE OF TERROR" (more evidence they didnt retreat or operate out of the eye like the other legions)"

also another quote of interest,.."although they joined the heresy the alpha legion stayed distinct from the other traitor legions and fought its own campaign. since the heresy they have remained independent, setting up their own network of cults and pursuing separate objectives"

and cults,...doesnt have to mean daemon worshipping lunatics...the lectito divinatus was considered a cult, not its the prime faith of the imperium.

in the entire book the only time i can think of when the alpha legion werent in control of a situation was when the nurthene (chaos) unleashed that lizard plague on their safe house.

i think the alpha legion as it is now in present day 40k can best be described as not chaos and not imperial but a force onto themselves,...rebel scum perhaps according to the imperium. but i still believe they are working toward the emperors true goals.

its a slow burn process, much like the theory behind cypher reaching the emperor, or the illuminati and the starchild.

ahhhh, and how about this....what if it was all connected. the starchild theory is the information, alpha legion are part of the status quo, and cypher is the ending tool to unleash the emperor from his 'prison'. BANG super-god. bye bye chaos gods. new age of man!

Allen
20-08-2008, 07:30
I fear the Star-Child fluff is outdated, no more canon. The last Rulebook background describes the Emperor not as a rotting corpse with a devastated mind but like a wounded individual in an over-the-top stasis field, if I remember correctly.

straightsilver21
20-08-2008, 14:50
ah, for shame then. i did indeed enjoy the starchild fluff.