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vinny t
10-08-2008, 19:54
I am thinking about turning to the side of the High Elves and am also searching for a theme for my 2250 army list. It is right now a toss up between Hoeth and Calador. So without further ado may I present the army lists!

Hoeth
Archmage level 4 with Book of Hoeth
Mage level 2 with Dispel Scroll
Mage level 2 with +1 PD (item)
BSB with Dragon Armor, Great Weapon, and the Skeinsliver
10 Archers (with mage)
10 Archers (with mage)
14 Swordsmasters with full command and a War Banner
14 Swordsmasters with full command and a War Banner
16 Swordsmasters with full command and Banner of Sorcery
RBT
RBT
RBT
Eagle

11-13 PD
6 DD and 1 scroll


Calador
Prince on a Sun Dragon with Bow of the Seafarer, lance, shield, Dragon Armor, and Guardian Phoenix
Mage with Dispel Scroll
Mage with Annulion Shard
23 Spearmen with full command (with mage)
23 Spearmen with ful command (with mage)
6 Dragon Princes with full command and War Banner
6 Dragon Princes with full command and War Banner
6 Dragon Princes with full command and War Banner
RBT
RBT
Eagle

Please help me decide which one to choose and/or and changes you would make.

Thanks in advance

Gokamok
10-08-2008, 20:10
Do the already hopelessly broken HE have a rule allowing them to take multiples of the same item? Otherwise I guess you'll need to get rid of some war banners;)

I guess the first army list looks to be the most effective, you can't really go wrong with an average of 12 PD, loads of shooting and 3 CC units that will basically slaughter anything they touch...

isidril93
10-08-2008, 20:27
a bsb cant take a great weapon. both lists seem ok but i would pay attention to what Gokamok said.

Red_Lep
10-08-2008, 20:32
a bsb cant take a great weapon. both lists seem ok but i would pay attention to what Gokamok said.

HE BSB are able to take a great weapon.

enyoss
11-08-2008, 00:19
I didn't vote as I don't think either list looks particularly attractive. Both are too gimmicky in my opinion with very bland army composition. I mean, we have a load of interesting units inhabiting the special slots, all of which are perfectly viable with the new book, and in both cases you've picked a single unit and then cloned it until your points are exhausted!

Apart from the fact that this makes for quite boring gameplay, by approaching the list in this way you are amplifying the weaknesses of these units until they dominate your entire force. For example, although Swordmasters are good in combat, the first list will suffer heavily from missle fire (Swordmasters' primary weakness) before being out manoeuvred and taken out piecemeal (the inevitable weakness of an wholly infantry force with no static combat resolution).

I think you need to re-think your army composition from the ground up. I know you're looking for a theme for your force, but I would say that at the minute your lists are more cliched than themed :(.

Sorry for the overly negative start, but that's my honest opinion.

So, on to something a bit more positive :). To get the best out of the High Elves I would try and utilize more of the units that are available to you. Just because your army is themed around Saphery and the White Tower doesn't mean you only have to have Swordmasters and Mages! It's entirely reasonable to expect such a force to be supported by a modest number of other specialized troops.

For example, off the top of my head I would pick a list a bit like this:

Archmage, lvl 4
Mage, lvl 2
Noble, White Sword
Noble, BSB

20-25 Spearmen
10 Archers

14 Swordmasters, Banner of Sorcery
14 Swordmasters
6 Silverhelms
*1 more small(ish) unit from the other special choices*

2 RBT
2 Eagles

This is still carries a Hoeth theme, but is a bit more interesting to both play and play against. Well, I'd certainly prefer to play against it anyway :D! Ok, I've sacrificed some of the shooting and magic supremacy (although it's still pretty solid from the magic side of things!), but at least it would now have some static combat resolution and a bit of added manoeuvrability.

Of course, you probably think this list isn't themed enough! Still, I would strongly urge you to at least consider branching out a bit more from your original lists.

I hope that helps in some way!

Cheers,

enyoss

vinny t
11-08-2008, 14:24
I was pretty sure that War Banners are Common Magic Items that can be taken multiple times. Also yes, HE, VC and DE BSBs can take mundane items.

@enyoss
'K, I get your point of blandness. And I also like the idea of the Silverhelms (genaric High Elf nobles). So....

Hoeth
Archmage level 4 with Book of Hoeth
Mage level 2 with Dispel Scroll
Mage level 2 with +1 PD (item)
BSB with Dragon Armor, Great Weapon, and the Skeinsliver
10 Archers (with mage)
10 Archers (with mage)
13 Swordsmasters with full command and Banner of Sorcery
13 Swordsmasters with full command and War Banner
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
RBT
RBT
Eagle
Eagle

11-13 PD
6 DD and 1 scroll

Do you perfer this one??? :D

blackjack
11-08-2008, 15:26
Don't let the Comp Nazis dictate your list. I liked your first army best.

enyoss
11-08-2008, 16:18
Don't let the Comp Nazis dictate your list. I liked your first army best.

I guess that would be me then ;).

Whether or not you like my comments, they are on the whole perfectly valid observations.

I'm sure you'll agree that by cloning one particular unit for each of the core and special slots, the original poster is not making the most of the broad variety of available units.

I'm sure you'll also agree that in doing so, the original list is seriously lacking in certain phases of the game. I mean, there are reasons the special section is inhabited by nine unit entries rather than one, and one of those reasons is game balance for the owning player.

Ok, my opinions on my personal enjoyment when facing this kind of army are exactly that, personal. Still, better that vinny t hears what some of us old grumblers are going to say now, than feeling disillusioned with his list after spending a fortune on nothing but Swordmasters!

Anyway, back on topic!

@ vinny t: I much prefer your new list, although I'd still re-jig things a little.

I have a mild obsession with spearmen, so personally I'd try and get some in there somewhere.

I'd also switch the dragon armour on the BSB for heavy armour (now this is a comp nazi tendency, I like to save the dragon armour for the Caledorians!), apart from my background irrationalities you probably won't need it when in Swordmasters anyway so why not save the points? I'd also try and get a bit more protection on the BSB... I find Helm of Fortune and Guardian Phoenix make him pretty dependable when armed with a great weapon.

Cheers,

enyoss

Uriain
11-08-2008, 16:31
I am a Heavy Infantry DE player Vinny T, and I will be honest when I say, I would enjoy facing any of those lists you have posted. Simply because it would be a quick kill for me. Nothing against you personally, but Elven armies arnt really ment to be a couple units of small 12-14 strong...unless they are backing up big blocks of basic infantry. I know people will disagree with me, but when you have 2 units of Swordmasters as your "hitting power" I am going to shoot them first in the first two turns with Bolt Throwers, and have magic and RxB/shades worry about your eagles.

Now this isnt to pick apart your list saying if I take this, it will counter that. But I take 2 units of 24 Warriors, a unit of 10 RxB a Hydra and a Unit of Harpies and Shades as my core for almost all of my lists with this new DarkElf book. I have had 4 games, 2 against empire, one against Highelves and one against Orcs, and I have won or drawn all of them simply by having the ability to take a few wounds before hitting my opponent.

If I were making a highelf list with the theme, I would take two big units of spearelves, with 2 units of 12-14 +champion of Swordmasters, a Unit of Archers, A Lion charriot, a pair of eagles, a pari of bolt throwers, and your character selection of a lvl 4 a lvl 2, a BSB, and if you got the points a "Swordmaster" Noble. Thus keeping with your theme, but also giving you the cheaper bodies to take wounds and the hitting power you need for the combat..plus the Highelves ASF helps spearelves a great deal..hitting first means you obviously get all your attacks...but every turn..that is the big difference vs any other race.

I can respect the fact that you want to have a theme'd list, because I am the same way. I enjoy the theme of my lists and then make them competitive with that theme in mind..but I think if you are going infantry elite units, then you need troops to back em up..not cavalry to charge ahead..though, cavalry never hurts to have as well

vinny t
11-08-2008, 16:33
OK more changes for list...

Hoeth
Archmage level 4 with Book of Hoeth
Mage level 2 with Dispel Scroll
Mage level 2 with +1 PD (item)
BSB with HEAVY ARMOR :rolleyes:, Great Weapon, and Guardian Phoenix
10 Archers (with mage)
23 Spearmen with full command (with mage)
13 Swordsmasters with full command and Banner of Sorcery
13 Swordsmasters with full command and War Banner
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
RBT
RBT
Eagle

how about that *sigh*

Also, the reason that I'm cloning units is that I don't pick and choose between the best units but instead focus on one aspect. So I could take some Dragon princes and then some 6 man white lion units to be stubborn and hold up the enemy for a turn, but instead I take Swordsmasters that are CC beasts but are vurnarble. So I'm not trying to make the best possible list but am limiting myseld. Against your DE I would hurt you with magic. Your hydra would be shot with bolt throwers for 2-3 turns and my archers would knock off spearmen ranks. Book of Hoeth would make doubles irristible and with Lore of Fire the Shades would not be long for this world.

I thought themed lists were good for comp.:confused:

WhiteKnight
11-08-2008, 16:39
I would combine the silver helms to make them a more hard hitting force then two units that aren't fast cav to go and pose as fast cav. Everything else looks fine to me.

vinny t
11-08-2008, 16:43
So do you suggest switching them for Ellyrion reavers?

enyoss
11-08-2008, 17:19
how about that *sigh*


Hey man, I didn't want to beat you down on this one :(. Don't feel forced to take stuff you don't want to... I wouldn't be able to live with myself!

Now, on to the whole can of worms that is `theme'...



Also, the reason that I'm cloning units is that I don't pick and choose between the best units but instead focus on one aspect. So I could take some Dragon princes and then some 6 man white lion units to be stubborn and hold up the enemy for a turn, but instead I take Swordsmasters that are CC beasts but are vurnarble. So I'm not trying to make the best possible list but am limiting myseld.


I think your intentions are absolutely honourable here, and to be honest it sounds like you'd be quite an enjoyable opponent to play against.

The problem really is in the interpretation of `theme', particularly when applied to Swordmasters (this is the main reason I concentrated on this list in rather than the Caledor list from your first post). As far as I can tell from the background, armies of nothing but Mages and Swordmasters aren't really seen. For example, during the Storm of Chaos Teclis turned up with all the Swordmasters he could, and that was only a couple of hundred or so. My particular love affair with Spearmen, from a background point of view anyway, is that they are ensconced in the background as being the stalwart of any High Elf force, regardless of where that force hails from. As such, I try to include at least one unit of these guys, and probably a unit of Archers for similar reasons (and possibly Silverhelms too as they are, again, non-region specific). I then try and theme my lists by filling out my special allowance with troops which fit the theme... in your case swordmasters.

Anyway, I think I've ear-bashed you enough on this, and would hate it if my efforts to tune your list to be more enjoyable actually did the opposite!

For what it's worth, I like the current incarnation of your list (but then I would... you enacted most of my suggestions :D), but if you're heart's not in it you have to remember that it is your army afterall!

Cheers,

enyoss

vinny t
11-08-2008, 17:45
*cry* *cry* *weep miserably*

Hey man I love your suggestions that's the entire reason I posted this list, for people to comment on it.

So...... I have Spearmen, Archers, Silver Helms, and Swordsmasters. This list is supposed to be the defence of the White Tower.