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Deus Mechanicus
11-08-2008, 03:18
Hey im in the process of assembling some Dark Angels and i had a couple of terminator boxes left to do for my Deathwing part (and a few tactical marines down the road) and i thought i'd make some female Dark Angels terminators.

However in the entire GW range there seems to be sparse with female head (even harder to order seperatly) so i wondered if anyone knew of a company out there that you could order some 25mm scale female heads of (prefably in packs)

cheers

Geddonight
11-08-2008, 03:46
check hasslefree miniatures

also, there are the SOB immolator/rhino sprues that have female heads on them.

...heathen... ;)

Sludgehammer
11-08-2008, 03:53
elf heads?

Slaaneshi Slave
11-08-2008, 03:59
Get ready to eat flak from the "OMZ MARINEZ IZ BOYZ" crowd.

The Sisters of Battle head from the Immolator upgrade sprue would fit just fine.

This (http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_192_193&products_id=4024) is the head I am on about. You might be able to find it on another bitz website.

PotatoLegs
11-08-2008, 03:59
:mad:

I'm not going to ask why. I don't want to know

Just: :mad:

Slaaneshi Slave
11-08-2008, 04:00
See? There is the first one.

PotatoLegs
11-08-2008, 04:05
Except I carefully avoided net-speak

warpedpavilion
11-08-2008, 04:29
@ Iron Father: so very wrong.... i died a little inside, but wow.... i laughed like hell

elf heads and SoB are my only suggestions... you could maybe look at the fantasy range for some more choices

Gutlord Grom
11-08-2008, 05:09
If Tigers of Veda is still up, definitely check it out. I would go there for some inspiration for female Space Marines. Best of luck.

Iron Father
11-08-2008, 05:14
@ Iron Father: so very wrong.... i died a little inside, but wow.... i laughed like hell

elf heads and SoB are my only suggestions... you could maybe look at the fantasy range for some more choices



im still laughing... it almost makes me wish I did this for my DW army :(

Tommygun
11-08-2008, 05:35
The Mordheim Amazons have separate heads, but I don't how you can get them now.
The HassleFree heads are not the greatest.

ehlijen
11-08-2008, 06:27
Guardian heads (the ones without helmets). Not truly female but look close enough.

march10k
11-08-2008, 06:44
female terminators? Heresy

female terminators made using bitz from heretic purging sisters sprues? Priceless :D

DarkAzrael169
11-08-2008, 07:09
female terminators? Heresy

female terminators made using bitz from heretic purging sisters sprues? Priceless :D

Don't want to burst your bubble but... There is no such thing as a female terminator.

Slaaneshi Slave
11-08-2008, 08:25
There is no such thing as a male one either. They are small plastic or metal figures used with a dice game. If he wants to model some to look like females, where is the harm?

Grimtuff
11-08-2008, 08:31
Oh God not this again..... :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're going to model breasts on them as well?

EldarBishop
11-08-2008, 08:35
Don't want to burst your bubble but... There is no such thing as a female terminator.


There is no such thing as a male one either. They are small plastic or metal figures used with a dice game. If he wants to model some to look like females, where is the harm?

ROTFLMFAO.... that's priceless...

But, what about the Slaanesh terminator... surely you could question its sexuality.

ctsteel
11-08-2008, 08:59
Warhammer fantasy or maybe mordheim is perhaps your best bet for official GW options, as they have a number of female models. At worst, you might have to buy a female torso and take to it with a model saw.

I'll skip the fluff/traditional comments except to ask - will the close combat weapon be a power handbag? :p Who knows, perhaps that's why the dark angels are known as the Fallen and have a shameful secret....if you want to play it that way (yes I'm fully aware of the proper backstory before people get their rants up) :)

march10k
11-08-2008, 09:03
Don't want to burst your bubble but... There is no such thing as a female terminator.

It may have escaped your notice...I'm not the one proposing to build female terminators:rolleyes: Mine isn't the bubble you want to be messing with;)

t-tauri
11-08-2008, 09:43
I've already removed a few posts and taken action against the offenders. Let's keep it civil please.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

Geddonight
11-08-2008, 09:59
ROTFLMFAO.... that's priceless...

But, what about the Slaanesh terminator... surely you could question its sexuality.

now THAT'S an idea!

Use the daemonette heads. Then you can be a double heretic ;)

Edit: Now I wish I had thought of that while making my Slaaneshi CSM termies... blast... The gifts of chaos could be quite... disturbing afterall :D


If Tigers of Veda is still up, definitely check it out. I would go there for some inspiration for female Space Marines. Best of luck.

You know, I've seen that site and I gotta say I just wasn't impressed by the modeling or the painting. If anything, I recommend the site as a guide how not to do the female marines idea.

Now, while I'm gently criticizing the fluff-busting concept, I also would point out that you'd have better luck (and draw less fire) if this thread were moved to the MP&T forums.

DarkAzrael169
11-08-2008, 10:34
It may have escaped your notice...I'm not the one proposing to build female terminators:rolleyes: Mine isn't the bubble you want to be messing with;)

Oops... My bad I quoted the wrong person... Point has been made :D ... But yes the Slaanesh terminators are very questionable... lmao

Hrw-Amen
11-08-2008, 11:08
There were one or two heads with the Dark Eldar warriors as well that could be female. I used a couple for conversions for sisters of silence a while back. The trouble is though they are not definate females, like the normal Eldar ones so on a SM torso they may just look like SM with long hair?

Adra
11-08-2008, 12:08
Funny how you never get people wanting to do Howling Banshee's as males.

In fact thats got me thinking....worthy of another thread. Why all the turning men into women in 40k and not the other way around?

Deus Mechanicus
11-08-2008, 12:17
Oh God not this again..... :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're going to model breasts on them as well?

No they would still wear the same Mk. 7 Power Armour as the other space marines or exclusivly Mk. 2 Crusade Armour haven't decided yet.

The terminators will also use the standard Terminator armour so all i really need to change is the heads.

Thanks for the tips. The problem with the elf/guardian head is that im unsure that i want to buy an entire regiment box for 2 or 3 heads (or how many unhooded female head does the wood elf box come in?) what i was looking for was somewhere i could buy a batch of heads.

Slaaneshi Slave
11-08-2008, 12:45
Bitz websites will be your best bet, you can buy individual pieces off sprues.

Gibresol
11-08-2008, 13:24
Funny how you never get people wanting to do Howling Banshee's as males.

In fact thats got me thinking....worthy of another thread. Why all the turning men into women in 40k and not the other way around?

Thats it I'm making a male living saint :evilgrin:

EVIL INC
11-08-2008, 14:33
I was wondering what happened. It seemed that people were replying to posts that didnt exist. LOL
I say use the SoB ones as they are the most likely to be the right size and ready to fit into a power armor type socket.
As for having them, I see no problems. You see hello kitty marines, simpsons marines, marines based on our real life football teams. All of which have no connection to the fluff. A few female marines are no worse and will likely look better modeled.
Good luck and happy hunting.

Bregalad
11-08-2008, 15:40
My suggestion is Catachan heads!
Females fitting in Terminator armour look exactly that way ;)

As said before, your concept will earn you many enemies, but here you are:
http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=60
http://www.battlefield-berlin.de/shop/index.php?list=WG934

You may also ask this shop for spare heads:
http://www.alphaforgegames.com/heavyinfantry.html

Emperor's Avenger
11-08-2008, 19:12
Don't want to burst your bubble but... There is no such thing as a female terminator.

I'm surprised we got to 14 posts without someone pointing that Space Marines are all male (making allowances for the Emperor's Children).

StormKnight
11-08-2008, 20:19
How many Terminators running around without helmets are you planning on having? I thought usually only the captains didn't have headgear.

Seems like the problem with most other ranges is that Marines are a bit bigger than normal people, and standard mini heads may look too small.

For an off the wall suggestion, how about some of the Heroscape minis? Its a prepainted Hasbro line - I know, we're talking real heresy here - but some of the minis might work pretty well. There was pack called 'Agents and Gladiators' that's generally pretty cheap, and has 3 female characters that might work. A little too feminine looking probably, but you'll need some emphasis for it to stand out. The base set female Krav Maga agent with her sunglasses would also make a cool marine.


Funny how you never get people wanting to do Howling Banshee's as males.
Male Howling Banshees look...exactly the same as the female Banshees when wearing their armor. Its designed as an ancient, ritualized representation of the aspect's founder, not as expression of the biological details of the wearer. (Ditto with all the other aspects).

Seved
11-08-2008, 21:02
It is your miniatures Deus Mechanicus. Do what you want with them.

Gutlord Grom
11-08-2008, 21:03
now THAT'S an idea!

You know, I've seen that site and I gotta say I just wasn't impressed by the modeling or the painting. If anything, I recommend the site as a guide how not to do the female marines idea.

Now, while I'm gently criticizing the fluff-busting concept, I also would point out that you'd have better luck (and draw less fire) if this thread were moved to the MP&T forums.

True, true. Not the best painting. But its a good start at least. Maybe some help on background or something. It's at least a start.

Devil-Tears
11-08-2008, 21:14
ROTFLMFAO.... that's priceless...

But, what about the Slaanesh terminator... surely you could question its sexuality.

Actually, Chaos Marines would probably have females, since the Chaos Gods favour both genders equally. I remember reading an article about using normal people in Chaos space marine armies, with the SM statline being due to bionics and gifts (ok, a LOT of bionics and gifts). Nevertheless, it would work for a female chaos termy.

Wolfblade670
11-08-2008, 21:51
Actually, Chaos Marines would probably have females, since the Chaos Gods favour both genders equally. I remember reading an article about using normal people in Chaos space marine armies, with the SM statline being due to bionics and gifts (ok, a LOT of bionics and gifts). Nevertheless, it would work for a female chaos termy.

I've had the plans floating around in my head for some time now to do a squad of female Khorne Berserkers. :evilgrin: :D

Actually I've been playing around with the idea of doing an army of female warriors in power armor from outside the Imperium (from a warrior society who perserved elements of STC tech, kind of like the Clans from Battletech), so I don't have to deal with the whole "OMG GEENSEEDZ AND ZYGOATS DUH" argument.

Ixe
11-08-2008, 22:13
I can see the whole "it's your army, model it how you feel like" argument. Technically, no space marines are female, but then again, who cares? But the OP specifically wants to make "Dark Angels female terminators." THAT involves the canon. You don't get to rewrite the fluff surrounding Dark Angels, that belongs to Games Workshop and it doesn't change unless they say it does. There are no Dark Angels female terminators, or female marines at all. You could model some, but they would be officially innacurate as to the army you're using them with. In this case, it's not a "your army, your choice" issue, because you're actually using fluff that someone else wrote and doing something that directly contradicts it.

MrBigMr
11-08-2008, 23:24
Your arguing makes my nipples explode with delight. Please, continue.


Guardian heads (the ones without helmets). Not truly female but look close enough.
Could check bits stores for various Eldar/Elf heads. Some are a little more masculin that others, but they have a nice "cast iron bitch" look to them. I used a Guardian head on a commissar (Ecclesiarchy agent by fluff) to have a little anime style guy with a long black coat, feminin face, a gun and a huge sword. I'm also getting few HE/DE heads to try on my Chaos lord as I can't him to be as much a pretty boy as possible (little ironic as he hates Eldar above all).


Don't want to burst your bubble but... There is no such thing as a female terminator.
Don't want to burst your bubble but... (http://www.tdubel.com/skinit/kuvat/evox/terminator3.jpg)


Seriously, everyone for and against stop what ever your doing, take a breather and step away from your computer. Go give the mister or missus a hug, have a smoke, walk the dog, what ever. Then come back, close this window and forget all about it.

OP is free to make anything to his models. Hell, he might as well give them cat ears, tails and furry mittens, along with paw prints on their shoulder guards if he wishes. Whether or not this is according to the "rules" or not, is irrelevant. If you want "by the book" army, I don't think any of you qualify to your own sets of rules. I remember a thread about painting Ultramarine helmets according to the Codex Astartes. How many here paints their sergeant and veteran sergeat helmets red or white, and give the company the correct markings? It's ok not to do it, but it's not ok to put chicks in power/terminator armour? Where does the line between "oh, this is just my take on the chapter" and "that's like totally not gonna happen" go? I doubt Calgar's armour can be painted in any other way than the way it's shown in the latest official artwork, because any other way would be against the established fluff.



I shall give this thread a new purpose, as I myself came across a similar problem. Well, almost. I just purchased from Rackham an Elemental of Light (http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/images_produits/fLIMA05copie.jpg) (the one carrying the guy on the shield) in bits as a Shieldbearer for my "Chaos" Dwarf army, but unfortunately they didn't have a head for it. So does anyone know any good, feminin head that would fit on there. I think around 40mm would probably be right size. I only have spare female wolfen heads, which work if nothing else comes across.

nomadimp
11-08-2008, 23:26
I can see the whole "it's your army, model it how you feel like" argument. Technically, no space marines are female, but then again, who cares? But the OP specifically wants to make "Dark Angels female terminators." THAT involves the canon. You don't get to rewrite the fluff surrounding Dark Angels, that belongs to Games Workshop and it doesn't change unless they say it does. There are no Dark Angels female terminators, or female marines at all. You could model some, but they would be officially innacurate as to the army you're using them with. In this case, it's not a "your army, your choice" issue, because you're actually using fluff that someone else wrote and doing something that directly contradicts it.

Yeah, and I'm sure they care so much that they will even show up and punch you in the face for deviating from their fictional world. The fluff is there to give you a starting place to create your own stories that will add character to your games, it is not meant to be used to beat someone else over the head with or restrict anyone's creativity.

That hasslefree line is pretty impressive, a few models on there that I hope to add to my escher gang, which, by the way, isnt a bad place to look if you want to cannibalize some heads (but isnt the most efficient method).

Adra
11-08-2008, 23:33
Male Howling Banshees look...exactly the same as the female Banshees when wearing their armor. Its designed as an ancient, ritualized representation of the aspect's founder, not as expression of the biological details of the wearer. (Ditto with all the other aspects).

Well no, eldar armour does take account of some aspects of the wearers biological features otherswise they may not fit into it. Obviously. Banshees just happen to be all female.

What i was suggesting was that there seems to be a population of the hobby that likes putting boobs on things. Just a curious observation that its not so much present the other way around....

Chem-Dog
11-08-2008, 23:59
There is no such thing as a male one either. They are small plastic or metal figures used with a dice game. If he wants to model some to look like females, where is the harm?

Other than damaging the Dark Angel's already questionable history with sexual proclivities?! Nothing ;)


I'm surprised we got to 14 posts without someone pointing that Space Marines are all male (making allowances for the Emperor's Children).

The Inquisitorial Purge happened on the first page, so I wouldn't be too sure of that ;)


How many Terminators running around without helmets are you planning on having? I thought usually only the captains didn't have headgear.

Well, most people will tell you wandering around with no helmet on is a recipe for disaster, especially when your head appears right in the middle of the armour making it an even easier target.
But yeah, I say give them all helmets and imagine they are girls......




Actually I've been playing around with the idea of doing an army of female warriors in power armor from outside the Imperium (from a warrior society who perserved elements of STC tech, kind of like the Clans from Battletech), so I don't have to deal with the whole "OMG GEENSEEDZ AND ZYGOATS DUH" argument.

Not without precident, have you read "Galaxy In Flames"?


Your arguing makes my nipples explode with delight. Please, continue.

They can do this more than once, or do you support some kind of ancillary exploding nipple mechanism?:eyebrows:

Ixe
12-08-2008, 00:18
Yeah, and I'm sure they care so much that they will even show up and punch you in the face for deviating from their fictional world. The fluff is there to give you a starting place to create your own stories that will add character to your games, it is not meant to be used to beat someone else over the head with or restrict anyone's creativity.


I wouldn't be too sure about any of that :p Especially the face part :eek:

The fact is, the OP can't change Dark Angels fluff. He can't do what he wants, because it's impossible -- if he makes female terminators, they aren't Dark Angels because he can't insert them into canon all on his own. They will be his own creation, painted like Dark Angels, and nothing more. Some people will say "And? Who even cares about that?" And I hear you. I'm not trying to stop anyone from doing what they feel like with their own money, I'm just discussing the fluffy ramifications of such.



Seriously, everyone for and against stop what ever your doing, take a breather and step away from your computer. Go give the mister or missus a hug, have a smoke, walk the dog, what ever. Then come back, close this window and forget all about it.

"Everyone who disagrees with me: shut up." Classy. ;)

talos935
12-08-2008, 00:40
If he isn't going to modify the armour [aka stick boobies on then as someones else said], then for all intents purposes they are just long haired marines.

Sometimes a model isn't 'legal' or 'cannon', but is cool just for the idea and how it's done. If the boy doesn't play tornies and stuff like that then let him do as he wishes with his army, since all the poor lad wanted to know was where to get some 28mm female heads from.

Chem-Dog
12-08-2008, 00:40
"Everyone who disagrees with me: shut up." Classy. ;)

To be fair, I read it as a reminder that we're talking about little toy men (or women :rolleyes: ) and it's not really worth getting worked up about....

Grindgodgrind
12-08-2008, 00:46
To the OP - Just do it and screw the naysayers, it's your army.

PotatoLegs
12-08-2008, 01:18
To be fair, I read it as a reminder that we're talking about little toy men (or women :rolleyes: ) and it's not really worth getting worked up about....


And to be fair to Ixe, he's obviously just being a little cheeky with his comment...

Wolfblade670
12-08-2008, 01:22
Not without precident, have you read "Galaxy In Flames"?


It's on my list for my next foray to Borders books as a matter of fact. Seeing as how it apparently ties in with my idea somehow I might just have to make the trip a little early...

I was also thinking about the whole female Dark Angels Terminator thing. Perhaps they're not actual Dark Angels persay, but from a culture who was saved by them or the like at a point in their history and have come to revere them, so they copied their armor and heraldry. Not great, but something to chew on...

EDIT: Another idea, perhaps some kind of isolated technological cult which genetically created cloned female warriors, and again, outfitted them in some kind of reverential imitation of the Dark Angels. The DA strike me as perfect for tying in with obscure cults and techno-esoterica.

nomadimp
12-08-2008, 01:31
I wouldn't be too sure about any of that :p Especially the face part :eek:

The fact is, the OP can't change Dark Angels fluff. He can't do what he wants, because it's impossible -- if he makes female terminators, they aren't Dark Angels because he can't insert them into canon all on his own. They will be his own creation, painted like Dark Angels, and nothing more. Some people will say "And? Who even cares about that?" And I hear you. I'm not trying to stop anyone from doing what they feel like with their own money, I'm just discussing the fluffy ramifications of such.


I would agree with you if his making female Dark Angel terminators for his army had any impact on the base "canon" fluff which would then impact everyone else. Fortunately, each group of people playing 40k effectively exists in their own dimension and none of the stories they come up with impact anyone but themselves. For example: if I decided to play a campaign wherein I used the entire Dark Angels chapter of marines against a friend's Ork army, and in the process of this campaign, the entire DA chapter was killed, this obviously does not mean that the DA chapter no longer exists and no one else is allowed to play DA anymore. This is no different from the OP saying that, in his gaming group, the DA have been recruiting females and somehow got the geneseed to work because they found an SCT that told them how.

Point being that (GW campaigns aside) as far as the "canon" fluff is concerned, nothing we, the players, do ever happens. Like a sitcom where no matter what happened in one episode, things are restored to the status quo at the beginning of the next episode. So yes, you are right in that no player can change the canon fluff globally such that it impacts everyone else.

However, as other have pointed out, players are free to change the fluff for the purposes of their games as they see fit-- to whatever degree their particular gaming group requires/tolerates. If the OPs group of players sees female marines as too much of a deviation from the fluff, then obviously it isnt gonna work out (and he probably should ask them before he wastes time making conversions that no one will play against, though really, anyone who wont play against female marines is not someone I personally would want to play with in the first place) otherwise, what goes on in their private dimension of the 40k universe is really no one's concern but their own (and I hope that the DAs fare better in the OPs universe than in the one that I mentioned above!).

In short, you can't tell the author of a fictional story that something didnt happen and every player is the author of their own stories-- they may base their stories on the stories of others (like the GW writers) but they are free to elaborate and alter those base stories as they see fit (for better or worse). This includes altering the definition of what is or is not a Dark Angel. 40k still has a lot of its pen and paper RPG heritage and just like pen and paper RPGs it depends on groups of creative individuals to customize and tailor the story to their own particular tastes and needs.

Ixe
12-08-2008, 01:42
Sure, fanfic is great. But IMHO, fanfic that takes a big steaming dump all over the original work by altering one of its basic tenets for no reason is not very good fanfic. As players writing our own fictional stories based on the works of others, we should make some minimal effort that our stories be good. That's all.

And for the last time, I know "it's his army, not mine." I just assume that when something is posted online for discussion, it's open to criticism. That's sorta how online posting works. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm just letting my opinion be heard, which everyone here has the right to do.

nomadimp
12-08-2008, 01:52
Sure, fanfic is great. But IMHO, fanfic that takes a big steaming dump all over the original work by altering one of its basic tenets for no reason is not very good fanfic. As players writing our own fictional stories based on the works of others, we should make some minimal effort that our stories be good. That's all.

And for the last time, I know "it's his army, not mine." I just assume that when something is posted online for discussion, it's open to criticism. That's sorta how online posting works. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm just letting my opinion be heard, which everyone here has the right to do.

Right, which is subjective and that is fine. The criteria by which people just fanfic aren't all the same (obviously). I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't criticize, just trying to frame the context of those criticisms (as subjective judgements of fanfiction). Personally, I agree that female Dark Angels are pretty far-fetched and "meh" story-wise.

Chem-Dog
12-08-2008, 02:07
And to be fair to Ixe, he's obviously just being a little cheeky with his comment...

You're right, dunno why I missed that first time round.... Caffeine deficiency, I think.


It's on my list for my next foray to Borders books as a matter of fact. Seeing as how it apparently ties in with my idea somehow I might just have to make the trip a little early...

I was also thinking about the whole female Dark Angels Terminator thing. Perhaps they're not actual Dark Angels persay, but from a culture who was saved by them or the like at a point in their history and have come to revere them, so they copied their armor and heraldry. Not great, but something to chew on...

EDIT: Another idea, perhaps some kind of isolated technological cult which genetically created cloned female warriors, and again, outfitted them in some kind of reverential imitation of the Dark Angels. The DA strike me as perfect for tying in with obscure cults and techno-esoterica.

I wouldn't buy it JUST because it ties in (loosely) with the idea you had (but I would say buy it because the HH books, in general, are a great read).

The worshipful emulation idea isn't without merit, I just have trouble believing the DA (of all chapters) would welcome such warriors, given that most of the DA battle are fallen related.
The Techno-cult is also something which is (again, loosely) touched upon in Galaxy. It's a much stronger line of thought in my mind, but that's for a whole other thread.

scopedog91
12-08-2008, 02:22
Ya know, I have done about 12 female Marines, some as sarges and several as Assault Marine.
I was mostly inspired by both the Tigers of Veda (nice site there Tigerman), and the fact that I am tired of seeing the same half-dozen male faces on everyone else's models.
It may pizz someone off, but I always stick to the basic mantra of the mature gamer.
"My money, my models, and my time..."
If you don't like the models, don't play the guy.
But DO NOT criticize someone for trying to make the game and modelling aspect of the GW thing interesting for themselves.
Cuz more models means more conversions, and I love to play against someone who goes the extra mile, even if it goes against the established "fluff"...

PotatoLegs
12-08-2008, 02:32
Being a 'mature' gamer also means excepting that people are going to have opinions and criticism.

And those Tigers of Veda are really badly painted and modelled conversions at the end of the day too.

Logarithm Udgaur
12-08-2008, 02:54
Except I carefully avoided net-speak

Yet still used emoticons, you shameless hussy you.


Banshees just happen to be all female.

Wrong, all the models are female, not all of the Howling Banshees. For whatever reason male Eldar just do not go in for that aspect that much (probably all the shrill screaming).

Ixe
12-08-2008, 02:58
But DO NOT criticize someone for trying to make the game and modelling aspect of the GW thing interesting for themselves.


"I'm going to put this in public in a place where comment is free and unrestricted. You are not allowed to say anything bad about it, even if your honest opinion is that you don't like it!" :eyebrows:

If people don't want dissent, they shouldn't post about it publicly. Make a blog, turn comments off, there you go. If you're posting it on warseer, then presumably you don't mind people who disagree with you. If you do mind, then this is the wrong place to post. But I assume that, if people post an idea on here, they are willing to hear more than just yes-people telling them how great it is.

PotatoLegs
12-08-2008, 03:00
Yet still used emoticons, you shameless hussy you.
I just can't help myself when I see those shiny pretty little faces hurrrrr

scopedog91
12-08-2008, 03:00
Mmmm, I think what I said may have been a little off, there.
I do not mean to say that one should not have an opinion, it is just that some people tend to be overly harsh sometimes.
Easy enough to do when debating something online, and the whole thing can easily sprial out of hand...
Just trying to give the guy props for doing something different...

Doctor Thunder
12-08-2008, 06:08
Thanks for the tips. The problem with the elf/guardian head is that im unsure that i want to buy an entire regiment box for 2 or 3 heads (or how many unhooded female head does the wood elf box come in?) what i was looking for was somewhere i could buy a batch of heads.
Wood Elf heads are the best but you don't need to buy a box. Just go online or find a Wood Elf player, they always have extras.



I'm going to put this in public in a place where comment is free and unrestricted.
What are you talking about? Warseer has plenty of rules and restrictions.

Grimtuff
12-08-2008, 09:39
If he isn't going to modify the armour [aka stick boobies on then as someones else said], then for all intensive purposes they are just long haired marines.


INTENTS AND purposes. :p

TheOverlord
12-08-2008, 09:54
LOL, intensive purposes :D This place cracks me up. Good eye Grim.

Anyway, I wouldn't suggest wood elf heads, or any elf or spess elf heads for the matter. They look far too... how shall we say it... undernourished? Sunken cheekbones and the like. Not very nice.

The Daemonettes have 'some' good faces, but you'll need to remove the hair and sculpt you own to make it better. Avoid the faces with no lips. But this is kinda expensive, so I suggest using Reaper miniatures and see what they have in stock. Which is also expensive but at least you don't get wasted bitz.

MrBigMr
12-08-2008, 11:27
They can do this more than once, or do you support some kind of ancillary exploding nipple mechanism?:eyebrows:
You need to pass an Insane Courage just to hear it, and after that a Perils of the Warp on 10D6.


"Everyone who disagrees with me: shut up." Classy. ;)
More like "everyone: shut up!" I can't believe a thread about "I'm looking for a bit" has turned into 3 pages (so far) with people arguing for and against whether or not he should even get the parts.

Really, people. I've seen my fare share of these discussions and I know they don't end well. Everyone just get close, pucker up, kiss and make up. Then GTFO. Know when to walk away, since there will always be people who are wrong on the internet, and you cannot make them see your point no matter how much you... None of you are even listening to me, are you?


I just assume that when something is posted online for discussion, it's open to criticism.
That is sadder and truer than anything else in the world...

Ixe
12-08-2008, 13:39
What are you talking about? Warseer has plenty of rules and restrictions.

REALLY?? :eek:

I mean... You don't think I knew that? Speech in the USA has plenty of restrictions too, that doesn't mean we don't call it free speech. But how is your comment even relevant to the topic? If you pick on a verbal flaw of mine, will you destroy my argument or something? :rolleyes:

TheOverlord
12-08-2008, 14:00
Well, you can certainly call it that, doesn't make it much true though :D

Doctor Thunder
12-08-2008, 15:24
REALLY??

I mean... You don't think I knew that? Speech in the USA has plenty of restrictions too, that doesn't mean we don't call it free speech.

Now you are just backpedaling. You made an incorrect statement and I called you on it. Simple as that.


But how is your comment even relevant to the topic? If you pick on a verbal flaw of mine, will you destroy my argument or something? :rolleyes:
It is relevant because you are beating up the OP based on fictional criteria, and by that I don't mean fictional as is this is a fictional game, I mean fictional as in not based on what GW has said about the fluff.





I can tell you love the fluff, and that is a good thing, but I can also tell that you don't yet really understand what it is, so I will help you.


But the OP specifically wants to make "Dark Angels female terminators." THAT involves the canon.
According to GW, there is no such thing as cannon.

Originally Posted by Marc Gascoigne - Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame


Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...


Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.


I think the real problem is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.



Let me help you out some more. Here is an exerpt from an article from the Design Staff in White Dwarf 302 that explains what the fluff is and what we as players are meant to do with it.

From the design staff in White Dwarf 302:


The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.

The Background exists as a context for the games that people play. Despite the occasional event, the background was never intended as an ongoing narrative that would be constantly updated. The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.

StormKnight
12-08-2008, 16:01
Obviously. Banshees just happen to be all female.

I think it was the 2e codex that described how there tended to be more female Banshees, but all the aspects were composed of both genders.
As for Banshees being all female, my point was, how would you know? The armor is designed to look like Jain Zar's armor, which was, for whatever reason, overtly female looking. In my group's games (its come up in some of our 40K RP games), we followed the logical conclusion that all Banshee armor looks female, regardless of the wearer's actual gender. Eldar are a little less silly and petty about such things than us humans :)

There's really no reason for armor to differ based on the outside; look at women in police or military body armor and you'll find they look about the same as the guys do.

Heck, way back in the Rogue Trader days, a scenario about a female marine chapter gave the paint scheme for them, and mentioned for modeling them that 'the exaggeratedly female armor worn by the Adeptas Sororitas is symbolic rather than function, and the female marine armor is identical to their male counterparts'.

As for 'canon'...a game company puts out a bunch of ideas. Then you take YOUR game and do whatever the hell you want with it. The 'official' view influences you only as far as you want it to. If you want to chuck the entire 40K backstory and make your own for your group, good for you. (Heck, maybe you want to start a campaign back at the Horus Heresey and see how the entire history of the Imperium goes from there...sounds like a lot of work, but could be pretty awesome).

MrBigMr
12-08-2008, 16:26
Let me help you out some more. Here is an exerpt from an article from the Design Staff in White Dwarf 302 that explains what the fluff is and what we as players are meant to do with it.

From the design staff in White Dwarf 302:
Oh, doctor, I could kiss you if only we weren't so far away.

Oh, screw it.
*Lunges at the screen and gives it a big wet kiss. With tongue.*


There's really no reason for armor to differ based on the outside; look at women in police or military body armor and you'll find they look about the same as the guys do.
Ask any woman how would the feel like if their tits were tied as close to their bodies as possible, squeezing them out of existence. You try wearing pants with no room in the crotch. In the army quite a few women said that their body armour was uncomfortable around the chest. I've heard that there had been development of gender specific body armour. Space for breasts. And you can't have the armour looking the same on the outside if you make room on the inside.

And don't tell me about men and women looking the same in military gear. It was fairly easy to spot the chicks.

Eldar armour has room for breasts because it's skin tight mesh armour. It follows the wearers own physiology. You think those abs are padding or just for show? The Eldar have beefy stomacks as they have bones there as well. So it's like ribs sticking out from their fat free bodies.


But if you want something to wonder about, why does the Eldar codex refer to a Shadowseer as a 'she'?

Fist of Crimson
12-08-2008, 17:18
If the OP is going to do female heads on Dark Angels, he had better do it properly and give them high heels too!

That would look awesome :D

Adra
12-08-2008, 17:29
Yeah cos women would love to wear high heels in a battle...cos they are just so darn comfortable....i mean thats the only time i wear mine. ;)

I guess this is just something which depends how much you value the canon. Its fine to do it i guess but you have to except that you go againt the back story that 40k has and some people dont like that. Pink skinned Orks for example.

Doctor Thunder
12-08-2008, 17:41
There's really no reason for armor to differ based on the outside; look at women in police or military body armor and you'll find they look about the same as the guys do.


Only people who have never served in the military alongside women think that.

Anyone who has will tell you that you can tell from a mile away.

nomadimp
12-08-2008, 18:07
Dr. Thunder's quotes pretty much summed up exactly what I was trying to get at with my post, only it comes right from the horse's mouth :)

madd0ct0r
12-08-2008, 19:12
This is possibly the only time this is ever permissable:

TOGTFO!

if you don't mind dreads and some filing then http://store.privateerpress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=138
(bottom left)

They've plenty of female models but that's the only loose head.

Ixe
12-08-2008, 19:37
Now you are just backpedaling. You made an incorrect statement and I called you on it. Simple as that.


Respectfully, what I was doing was pointing out that picking on the language of my post in no way affects my argument. My statement might have been incorrect, but it's neither here, nor there. In short, off topic, in controvention of forum rules :)


It is relevant because you are beating up the OP based on fictional criteria, and by that I don't mean fictional as is this is a fictional game, I mean fictional as in not based on what GW has said about the fluff.

You're mixing arguments now. The post I responded to told me that comment is not actually completely free and unrestricted on warseer. That's all you told me with that post. We weren't talking about how well versed I am on the fluff. You letting me know that, indeed, there are forum rules in Warseer, has nothing to do with my argument that, when you post something on a discussion board, expect it to be criticized.

I appreciate that you don't agree with other arguments I made in different posts, but your post informing me that there are rules is not relevant to anything. It's a straw man fallacy -- I was not arguing that there are no rules, I was simply arguing that it's totally allowed for us to criticize ideas we don't like. By arguing with me about whether there are rules or not, you're attacking an argument I didn't make, namely that there are no rules whatsoever. As that was plainly not the argument I was trying to make (as I am plainly not a complete idiot), attacking it does not impugn my argument in any way. Ergo, irrelevant.

MrBigMr
12-08-2008, 19:44
Yeah cos women would love to wear high heels in a battle...cos they are just so darn comfortable....
Pain, fashion and battle. If only there was some faction that preferred such things...


I guess this is just something which depends how much you value the canon. Its fine to do it i guess but you have to except that you go againt the back story that 40k has and some people dont like that.
Yeah, like how people who don't hate gays are going against the word of God.

I think the evidence is pretty heavy on the matter of what can and cannot be done. You can't do any creativity without going against the established fluff. Only one who can condemn someone's army is GW, and they don't do it. Hell, they even encourage it. The bastards. How dare they? I mean, don't they have any regard for the holy fluff?

I don't think GW needs some volunteer witch hunter force to keep up the purity of the fluff. But once someone thinks they have all the answers, they make sure as hell to get everyone else thinking their way.


Anyone who has will tell you that you can tell from a mile away.
Only if you have a good scope.


if you don't mind dreads and some filing then http://store.privateerpress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=138
(bottom left)

They've plenty of female models but that's the only loose head.
W00t! There's PP bits sold? Noooo! Must... resist... buying...

Doctor Thunder
12-08-2008, 21:03
By arguing with me about whether there are rules or not, you're attacking an argument I didn't make, namely that there are no rules whatsoever.
I make no attempt to read your mind or your intentions. Only your words.

You may have not meant to say that forum behavior was free and unrestricted, but that is what you typed. If your words did not match up to your arguments, then I suggest you use more careful language in the future to avoid complications.


Since you only responded to the first half of my post, I can only assume you have conceded the far more important points regarding cannon and player fluff, which were the basis for your attacks on the OP.

Since you have conceded those points, it is only fair that you remove those criticisms from your previous posts in this thread.

PotatoLegs
12-08-2008, 22:16
What? No he doesn't - everything he says sticks, its easy to see what he's saying so long as you don't nitpick and try to isolate only the individual criticisms that support your own argument.

nomadimp
12-08-2008, 22:40
wow I didnt realize PP sold bits either... lots of potential there!

HsojVvad
12-08-2008, 23:50
Oh God not this again..... :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're going to model breasts on them as well?

I am curious, is this just for modelling wise or is there some Fluff to this? I would like to see pics fo rthis if you have them.

Ixe
13-08-2008, 00:16
I make no attempt to read your mind or your intentions. Only your words.

You may have not meant to say that forum behavior was free and unrestricted, but that is what you typed. If your words did not match up to your arguments, then I suggest you use more careful language in the future to avoid complications.


Since you only responded to the first half of my post, I can only assume you have conceded the far more important points regarding cannon and player fluff, which were the basis for your attacks on the OP.

Since you have conceded those points, it is only fair that you remove those criticisms from your previous posts in this thread.

You were picking at a trivial detail of my post, which was not relevant to the conversation. And it's my fault, because I didn't use precise enough language? Ok, sure. It's not valid that I should expect other people to read what I write with a little common sense, or expect them to give me any benefit of the doubt. But hey, if you maintain the position that you added something to the discussion by informing me of something extremely obvious, then that's that. :eyebrows:

As for the rest of your post, you raise some good points. But I'm not conceding anything more than I already have -- it's your game, so it's your choice. But I think my original point about fanfic stands unrebutted. There's good fanfic, and bad fanfic. Fanfic that goes against all the official material (whether we're allowed to call that canon or not) is generally not very good, so I'm generally against it. Just my opinion, and I think we've established that I'm entitled to that.

Hive Mind 33
13-08-2008, 04:30
He is some tasty copypasta for the argument.




About the "Old Times" that is outdated information that seems to have been changed long ago. People have to learn to change with the times and accept when the background gets updated. Like how you used to be able to mix 40k and Fantasy now you are unable. How there used to be Malal. Hell at least the Squats got eaten by the Tyranids, but what ever happened to the Zoats?

The background changes such is life but currently Females are not marines and Skaven females are only breeders.

(I agree with you on the Chaos Orks/Tau/ect) the background states that it is hard for these races to be corrupted not that it is impossible.


Its not a matter of me defending GW. Its a matter of you are playing in a Universe with preset notations. It would be like me showing up with a Orc force using High Elf rules. . While the conversions might be interesting having orcs play that way flies in the face of the games Universe as Orcs are not know for their Lighting Reflexes and low numbers

As I said before its your models and your welcome to make them as ugly as you wish or make up a background that doesn't fit. I still reserve to right to tell you that your models are ugly and your background doesn't fit.

And just as I have to accept you doing what you want too with your models you have to accept that I can tell you what I think. That is how the free exchange of ideas works, because by telling me I have to sit there and accept it without having my voice heard is what is called censorship and we all know where that leads us.



Just change Female Skaven to Marines.

Lordsaradain
13-08-2008, 08:27
If you need a female head there is always Morathi's, which is in metal.

Logarithm Udgaur
14-08-2008, 03:31
W00t! There's PP bits sold? Noooo! Must... resist... buying...

At reasonable prices no less. They must not know that the best business model is to charge more for less.

MrBigMr
14-08-2008, 07:39
At reasonable prices no less. They must not know that the best business model is to charge more for less.
Even GW once had reasonable prices. See, first you reel people in, then you jack up the prices.

But I'm glad I finally can have good shoulder guards for my (non-Marine) Chaos army. So many guards to choose from... Also got plenty of steampunk tesla thingies for my Chaos Dwarfs. And I just spent like 1000 last week...

Grimtuff
14-08-2008, 09:31
I am curious, is this just for modelling wise or is there some Fluff to this? I would like to see pics fo rthis if you have them.

:eyebrows:
I do not have any female SM. Ever. I hate the "concept". It reeks of creepy fat middle aged member of the eternal virgin club living in his mum's basement, going "hurr boobs!" as he tries to ram this square peg of an army into the round hole that is 40k.

MrBigMr
14-08-2008, 10:28
I do not have any female SM. Ever. I hate the "concept". It reeks of creepy fat middle aged member of the eternal virgin club living in his mum's basement, going "hurr boobs!" as he tries to ram this square peg of an army into the round hole that is 40k.
What does your great psychological deduction say about people who resort to name calling and undermining people who disagree with their personal views?

Oh my God, there's half naked female minies on the shelf right next to me. Must... Not... Fap...

Do I have femarines? No. Would I make them even if they were "legal"? Probably not, since I dislike Marines. Why continue to advocate for them? I can't advocate for what ever I want, even if it doesn't concern me personally?

What about if a gay guy plays with an all female Marine army? What is your argument against that? Does it go to show the depravity of the homosexual lifestyle when they can't even follow simple rules? Rules... Lets take a moment to ponder on that concept.

Who writes the rules? Could it be GW?
Who writes the fluff? GW again, right?
Who's word is final on the matter? I think GW, does as it's their game.

So, when GW goes and says "Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting." The "rules" all the nay-sayers cry after pretty much loose all merits.

mhacdebhandia
14-08-2008, 10:40
I didn't see the original poster ever say he was sculpting breastplates onto the power armour.

I know if I were ever going to have female-headed Marines, that's what they'd be: Marines with female heads. Ain't no reason to sexualise power armour. It's thick and bulky enough that I have no trouble believing a genetically-engineered muscular woman could be inside without her secondary sexual characteristics showing!

As for why? Maybe you just like the idea that the technology that produces something as enhanced and post-human as a Space Marine is gender-agnostic. I mean, when you're talking about seven-foot-tall genetically-engineered superhuman warriors, does it really make a difference if you start from a male or female human basis?

The answer can be "no". That's all the justification I think is necessary.

Personally, I won't bother, but mostly because I'm a lazy man.

Ixe
14-08-2008, 13:22
You're telling us that, as long as it's "full of possibilities to be exploited," then it's ok. No matter how stupid the idea, as long as it's creative, nobody can criticize it. We're telling you that we think the concept is stupid, it's bad fanfic, it doesn't fit within what we feel is appropriate for Dark Angels, in spite of GW's statements that people are allowed to create whatever background they want for their own armies. Your response to our opinion... it's hard to figure out. Are you just telling us to shut up basically?

LokkoRex
14-08-2008, 16:02
i just can't see why it's such a big deal that some players give their marines female heads. it has no in-game advantage or disadvantage unless there's house rules involved. the fluff is open for discussion. you see it quite rarely(i tink so anyway).

but really, the dark age of technology lasted for like 10,000 years, and i refuse to believe that in that amount of time, on at least one world there were one scientist that managed to make women far superior physically, psychically and spiritully than adult human men, and then store that information in a time capsule(thats how i figure STC:s look like), which is then found and used for the good of mankind. or you could give a bunch of adepta sororitas a huge bunch of enhancing narcotics, or use whatever makes callidus assassins equal to space marines stats-wise.

Doctor Thunder
14-08-2008, 17:09
There was an instance a few years back when a GW staff member came on the B+C forum and participated in a discussion on the subject. Here was his post:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all. :)

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!

MrBigMr
14-08-2008, 17:27
Are you just telling us to shut up basically?
Ever heard the expression "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything"?

'Good' doesn't mean "man that's nice", but a good argument for or against. So far it's been more in the area of "that's not fluff, you idiot!" If you don't like the idea, it's ok to explain why you don't like it, but you really think shouting at someone over the internet is going to alter their views dramatically. If you people would take the time to understand your opposition, look at the thing from their POV, you might come up with better arguments that might appeal to them as well. Simply saying "no, it's against the fluff" isn't really that effective of an argument and it's getting old as the teachings of the Church.

All the pro people have time and time again come up with things to explain everything, but you just shut your ears and go "not fluffy, not fluffy, not fluffy, not fluffy." I know it's not written in stone, but there is not reasonable reason on pure fluff base for a woman to be made into a Marine. Hell, in Storm of Iron you have a chick in Marine armour leading Iron Warriors into battle.


It's not always about what is right, but also how it is presented. Just because the answer is clear to you, doesn't mean everyone else is on the same level with you. Articulate your feelings. There is nothing wrong with using words.


You're telling us that, as long as it's "full of possibilities to be exploited," then it's ok.
Right. Be it Pretty Marines, Hello Kitty, Ultramarines without red or white helmeted sergeants, incorrect regimental markings on your Cadians, bright coloured Dark Eldar, etc. If you want a purely fluff army, they can be found from the halls of GW, since everything other is just a person's presentation of the universe, filled with personal views. I mean, do the Space Wolves officially have a Land Raider with a 3D diorama on the sides? So far haven't seen anything like that in the fluff, but that doesn't stop someone from making such a model and no one so far has cried foul play on it.

Why is that, by the way? I don't remember such a thing ever being presented anywhere, but no one seems to argue it's against the fluff. Is it... Is it because it's 'plausible' for the SW to have something like that? Ah, the plot thickens. So it's ok to have something that's 'plausible'. So how far can we stretch that? When does the plausibility become impossibility? Now we're going to the realm of personal oppinions, which is a dangerous zone as it's void of all logic.


I do understand the point of standing behind written fluff and all that, but that's just one fraction of the hobby. Taking it a liiittle too seriously is not that good of an idea. I mean, we're talking about hobby that involves people doing what ever the hell they want, so naturally there are people who are doing it wrong.


Only think I would tell to people (both for and against) is:
"Believe what you might, but respect others and their oppinions as well."


No matter how stupid the idea, as long as it's creative, nobody can criticize it.
Oh, you can criticize it, but don't get upset if people don't just automaticly throw away everything they hold dear and crown you the king of fluff. Your statement is on the record.

Pretty much everything you (as in you people) criticize about it, is your personal oppinion. You're puritans, taking the word of GW as it is and ignoring everything else. See, you can have your beliefs, no one is forcing you to alter them, but just like we're not busting down your door and slapping on boobs on your Marines, don't come all high and mighty and try to deny us our own.


We're telling you that we think the concept is stupid, it's bad fanfic, it doesn't fit within what we feel is appropriate for Dark Angels, in spite of GW's statements that people are allowed to create whatever background they want for their own armies.
Well there's your problem. Attacking someone over the internet by claiming "that's a bad idea and stupid to boot" does not get you far fast. Maybe next time you come up with an idea, I'll pop in and trash you up, and lets see how you like it. Or are you claiming you have never come up with an idea that was at least bending the rules of holy fluff even a bit?

Next time you come across something you find stupid and all that, look into your soul and search what it is that makes you feel like that.


There was an instance a few years back when a GW staff member came on the B+C forum and participated in a discussion on the subject. Here was his post:
What a douche. Doesn't that guy know it's agaist the fluff? Must be a total loser with no sex life.

Ambu
14-08-2008, 18:00
Ever heard the expression "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything"?


Actually it is "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything", but I digress.

1.) Ultimately it is his fluff and he can do what he wants.
2.) Besides not being genetically enhanced, in all honesty SoB are pretty much the same thing.
3.) Not sure if anyone posted this or not because I got tired of all the name calling but check this vid out, guy did the same thing (but he created breasts as well) but retained the helmets and still maid them look like girls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r3vZDmlOMo

Doctor Thunder
14-08-2008, 18:49
It reeks of creepy fat middle aged member of the eternal virgin club living in his mum's basement, going "hurr boobs!"
So, you're saying that it would be less creepy if he was a fat middle age virgin sitting in his mom's basement and obsessing over models of hairy sweaty men? :eyebrows:

How do you figure that?

:eyebrows:

heinrichvoncarstein
14-08-2008, 19:05
Basically... what i've read is that space marines don't recruit females because of the males' stronger physique.
this is wrong!!! :mad:

Ixe
14-08-2008, 19:51
Ever heard the expression "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything"?

I don't think that's exactly how it goes, but your answer is "yes, I am telling you to shut up." Classy. :)



Oh, you can criticize it, but don't get upset if people don't just automaticly throw away everything they hold dear and crown you the king of fluff. Your statement is on the record.

My statement about being the king of fluff? I'm afraid I'll need a quote, I don't remember saying that... I did tell people that DA did not include any official fluff where some chapter members were female. And I'm pretty sure you've provided us with a quote about how there have never been female marines in the official fluff. So thanks for proving me right.

Some people did provide some nice quotes about how GW wants us to make our own fluff. That does contradict my arguments about things violating canon. But it does not make female Dark Angels a good idea, it just means that GW won't care if you do it.



Pretty much everything you (as in you people) criticize about it, is your personal oppinion. You're puritans, taking the word of GW as it is and ignoring everything else. See, you can have your beliefs, no one is forcing you to alter them, but just like we're not busting down your door and slapping on boobs on your Marines, don't come all high and mighty and try to deny us our own.

Nobody's trying to deny anything. In fact, quoted in this post, you told me to shut up. The person trying to suppress another's opinion is YOU. I am letting my opinion be heard, and I'm refusing to back down in the face of ad hominem and straw man arguments. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm not telling them to be quiet, I'm telling them my opinion of the thing they plan to do because they have invited comment by posting it publicly.



Well there's your problem. Attacking someone over the internet by claiming "that's a bad idea and stupid to boot" does not get you far fast. Maybe next time you come up with an idea, I'll pop in and trash you up, and lets see how you like it. Or are you claiming you have never come up with an idea that was at least bending the rules of holy fluff even a bit?

I think I've explained my objections using more language than that. To reiterate, I think fan fiction, to be good fan fiction, should avoid flatly contradicting all of the official story. Female marines do that, as I see it. Thus, the idea is bad fanfiction. You are free to disagree. And you're right that I said it was a bad and stupid idea. But I wasn't simply making a flame. I have made a reasonable, logical argument, followed by some perhaps regrettable word choices.

As for you insulting my ideas, if you think they're bad, please do. Though I would ask that you do as I've done, and make an effort to support your opinion somehow. I won't ask you to make a perfect argument, as I certainly have not done so here.

I would point out however: 1) If you insult someone's ideas not because of the ideas, but because you dislike the person, that violates the Warseer forum rule against personal attacks; and 2) if you simply insult something without making an effort to provide a logical argument about it, that violates the Warseer forum rule against flaming. So before you carry out the above threat, I advise you to make sure that you're not violating any forum rules. Again, nobody's perfect. But you should definitely reflect before you try carrying out campaigns of flames or personal attacks against anyone.

Doctor Thunder
14-08-2008, 20:31
I think fan fiction, to be good fan fiction, should avoid [I]flatly contradicting all of the official story.

But the official source of official-ness, namely GW, says we have full permission to do just that.

Don't you see how that argument yanks the rug out from underneath itself?

You cannot simultaneously argue that people should adhere to an official source AND ignore what the official source says. It is a self defeating argument.

That position, ironically, is what goes against the official stance.

Ixe
14-08-2008, 21:02
Don't you see how that argument yanks the rug out from underneath itself?


Not really. GW has told us that we can feel free to make up our own stuff. I don't think this amounts to GW endorsing people who declare that the Emperor is really Pikachu inside a big suit, or people who declare that the Tryanids, despite eating everything they come across, are actually trying to save humanity. I don't think female Dark Angels are anywhere near that bad, but I still think they are bad. You're saying I can't think that the official fluff is good, and that a fan's modifications to it are not good, simply because GW told us that fans can modify fluff if they feel like it? That is a non sequitur. GW has told us that they have no problem with fans writing their own fluff. They haven't told us that other fans have to applaud what their compatriots create. They haven't told us that every piece of custom fluff everyone writes is good, simply because it has been written. You guys are trying to logically show that my position of disliking the idea of female dark angels is somehow wrong, and I'm 99% sure that it's not possible...

Doctor Thunder
14-08-2008, 21:18
You guys are trying to logically show that my position of disliking the idea of female dark angels is somehow wrong, and I'm 99% sure that it's not possible...

I think it's great how the arguments have reversed in this thread. First the con side attacked the OP for not following GW, now it is the con side that is defending it's right to not follow GW.

Delicious Irony. :)

Ixe
14-08-2008, 22:22
I think you're mischaracterizing the course of the argument. I'm still saying we should follow GW, insofar as that our fanfiction should not be a gratuitous violation of everything we already know about the universe. Sure, there "could" be female Marines, but Dark Angels are extremely well documented, as Marines go. We know all about all sorts of Dark Angels characters, and none of them are female. I believe we know where all of their strongholds are, we know the structure of their companies, we know the names of their important commanders. We know that their primarch was in no way a girl. While GW has told us we can do anything we want, I don't think that's an invitation to actually take out a red pen and start crossing things out of official GW works. "By the way, Dark Angels can be girls," without more, is a pretty flagrant contradiction of the large volume of DA fiction.

All that GW has said to contradict me is "feel free to design whatever you want, and we won't object." I don't think there's anything I'm declining to follow there. I'm not claiming that GW objects, I'm claiming that the idea violates things that have already been written. Which is objectively true, as far as I know. And your primary criticism, that I should not be criticising the idea, is based on GW saying that they don't object to whatever fanfiction we want to write. GW's non-objection does not make bad ideas good, nor does it require me to applaud or enjoy any particular idea.

I think it's ironic that the ones who think we should ignore the very well documented fluff about Dark Angels in favor of someone's one-sentence plan to make "female Dark Angel terminators" are accusing me of being the one who violates official material.

MrBigMr
14-08-2008, 22:34
I don't think that's exactly how it goes, but your answer is "yes, I am telling you to shut up." Classy. :)
Well, the version I've heard does. And if you want to stick more words into my mouth, then feel free.



This is the problem with the word 'you'. I tend to use it quite often as a plural, so when I say 'you', I don't always mean 'you, Ixe' but 'you people'. It all depends on whether or not you feel a sting in your soul on the matter.

So from this point on, I'm talking in plural and to all who have strong oppinions.

Look, I don't care what people like, how they do their armies or what they want from their hobby. I respect people who want their pure fluff, but not all do and as much as you might dislike someone going against the holy fluff of 40K, they're free to express their own ideas as much as they want. You won't feel good if people start bad mouthing your choices of a pure fluff army that's about as "creative" as a colouring book that comes with all the colours that you need, along with detailer instructions on how to colour each page. Some prefer to do their own way and I don't see the point pointing and laughing at those that colour their pages like they want and maybe draw new things in there. Maybe even get a colouring book of another company or just use blank pages.

I've never understood all this fanatical devotion to things. Nobody is looking down on you for your army choices, so what makes you qualified to look down on others'? Because they're not "up to par" with the fluff? The fluff that's just an inspiration? As long as the army is legal, what's the big deal if it's an army of loyalist catgirl half-eldar Marines allied with the Orks?


What it all comes down to, is that we all make our own visions of the universe and share our ideas with others. Yes, it's good that you, Ixe, let people know how you feel, but could we tone down the stupid and all that. You can just say "I don't like the idea, I think it goes against the fluff, but that's my personal oppinion." Unless you're a developer in charge of the Marine codex, I don't think you have any qualification for denying a person from doing such an idea with the Marines. And even then, it won't stop anyone unless you start suing people for abusing your product.

Don't think for a second that I somehow want to scrap the whole universe, but It's a Big Universe(tm) and there's plenty of room. The fluff is developing all the time. Just because it hasn't been in the fluff yet, doesn't mean it can't pop up at some point, and just because it's not part of the game anymore, doesn't mean it's totally erased from the background.


And I'm pretty sure you've provided us with a quote about how there have never been female marines in the official fluff. So thanks for proving me right.
Where did I do such a thing. Besides, long time ago there were blisters sold title "female Space Marine." Later they became "female adventurer in power armour." And so what if female Marines haven't been in the fluff (lately). I don't think I've ever even read anyone in the whole universe taking a dump. Am I to understand no one poops anymore? Hell, they must not even have toilets. Poor bastards.

PotatoLegs
14-08-2008, 22:49
What about Sisters of Battle?

Znail
14-08-2008, 23:28
I think any Eldar head would do, there are no male Eldar after all :p

Ixe
15-08-2008, 00:08
What it all comes down to, is that we all make our own visions of the universe and share our ideas with others. Yes, it's good that you, Ixe, let people know how you feel, but could we tone down the stupid and all that. You can just say "I don't like the idea, I think it goes against the fluff, but that's my personal oppinion." Unless you're a developer in charge of the Marine codex, I don't think you have any qualification for denying a person from doing such an idea with the Marines. And even then, it won't stop anyone unless you start suing people for abusing your product.

This whole argument started in the first place when I (and others) expressed the opinion that we didn't like the idea. Then several posters basically told us we weren't allowed to criticize the idea, that we needed to shut up. I've been defending the critique itself, and the notion that criticism is a valid thing to post on this kind of forum. As long as you accept that my position is valid (not that you agree with it, just that there's some merit to my argument), and this is a valid place for me to say it, then we have no disagreement.

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 00:13
You won't feel good if people start bad mouthing your choices of a pure fluff army that's about as "creative" as a colouring book that comes with all the colours that you need.
Yes, that is a perfect analogy. The armies that fluff purists create do seem like a color-by-numbers picture at times.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 00:23
That's because the Fluff is actually a binding agent for the majority of people who involve themselves in this hobby. The only way that the game 'works' is because people agree to a pre-determined background as much as they do to the rule-set.

So while we can all go off and play with the fluff as much as we want (and I'm sure we all have at one point or another) people's divergances from the generally accepted fluff doesn't become canon till the greater community accepts it as a whole.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 00:36
Has anyone ever claimed their fluff to be canon? Even if you make a fluffy army with slight alteration, it's as unfluffy as any. It's not about shoehorning your own ideas into the general background (unless you get to slip something through a BL publication or something), mainly for people to make what they feel is right for themselves via their own personal logic. Besides, there are people out there who shun even BL stuff as background source, or pick the things they like themselves, so even that front isn't all solid. Not to forget that the fluff contradicts itself all the time. Hell, you do understand that by GW, even Goto is official as any codex or rulebook. But how many value his work as much as an old codex?

When I write fluff for my armies or just a piece of fanfic (and I hate fanfic normally, but 40K is quite open and gives plenty of room for one to do their stuff), I'm not writing them as some sort of chronicles of the world and try to force my views on all. It's just a story. Enjoy it as it is. You don't have to accept it, like or anything, but it's all there to explain some of the things in my armies so that it's more than "yeah, that's a Chaos Tau and those guys have Eldar weapons, etc."


Besides, people seem to forget a rule, that is even beyond the laws of any country: Rule 63.
("For any given male character, there is a female version of that character.")

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 00:43
That's because the Fluff is actually a binding agent for the majority of people who involve themselves in this hobby. The only way that the game 'works' is because people agree to a pre-determined background as much as they do to the rule-set.

Two people can play the game without discussing or agreeing on the background at all. Indeed, people can play the game without even knowing the background. The rules are absolutely necessary to play the game, the fluff is not, so it's wildly inaccurate to portray them as being even remotely similar.


So while we can all go off and play with the fluff as much as we want (and I'm sure we all have at one point or another) people's divergances from the generally accepted fluff doesn't become canon till the greater community accepts it as a whole.
According to GW, there is no such thing as cannon, and 40K is a multi verse, not a shared universe, where each player interprets and plays their own version of the 40K universe.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 00:46
MrBig Mr, you're not even trying to consider what I've said are you?

Notice I say 'community' NOT 'Games Workshop' as the determining factor about what is considered fluffy or not.

Therefore its the COMMUNITY has decided that Goto's writing is a black mark on the face of 40k fluff that needs to be ignored at all cost.

And in no way am I suggesting that because the COMMUNITY generally accepts certain thigns as canon that people shouldn't have the freedom to diverge to their heart's content. Just don't be suprised when people mention they don't like your ideas, when placed into the context of the broader range of accepted fluff.


Two people can play the game without discussing or agreeing on the background at all. Indeed, people can play the game without even knowing the background. The rules are absolutely necessary to play the game, the fluff is not, so it's wildly inaccurate to portray them as being even remotely similar
For this very reason, I would play a game against you seeing you use an acceptable rule set. That doesn't mean I have to accept your fluff though does it?

And whilst fluff and rules aren't similar in a technical sense, you can't dismiss their value and importance in this hobby as a whole - I didn't get into this game because of the ruleset, I did it because I loved the background and kickarse models. And I'd hazard a guess to say that's why a LOT of people like this particular hobby

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 00:51
And in no way am I suggesting that because the COMMUNITY generally accepts certain thigns as canon that people shouldn't have the freedom to diverge to their heart's content. Just don't be suprised when people mention they don't like your ideas, when placed into the context of the broader range of accepted fluff.

The problem with using ideas like Community Acceptance and Shared Universe, besides the obvious fact that they don't apply to 40K, is that everyone always thinks that the community agrees with them. I'll assume that the community is on my side, and you will as well, and the whole argument breaks down into an elaborate game of "Yeah-Huh," and "Nu-Uh."



And whilst fluff and rules aren't similar in a technical sense, you can't dismiss their value and importance in this hobby as a whole - I didn't get into this game because of the ruleset, I did it because I loved the background and kickarse models. And I'd hazard a guess to say that's why a LOT of people like this particular hobby
Don't get me wrong, I love 40K fluff, but I don't pretend like it is anything then what it is, a setting for wargaming and roleplaying.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 00:54
The problem being that if the community accepted female marines they would've been introduced into the fluff and model range by now, right?

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 00:59
The problem being that if the community accepted female marines they would've been introduced into the fluff and model range by now, right?
Since when does the design team consult the community before making models or writing fluff?

They've always done whatever they wanted to do and couldn't care less what the players think.

Heck, the design team won't even put females on the Cadian sprues, even though the fluff says half of them should be female.

So, I would have to disagree with your implication.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 01:06
Well we can speculate about the cart pulling the horse if you want. Because I definitely see the design team bowing to what the community generally wants, and an example of that is Space Marines are the first off the bat getting a new codex for 5th. With plenty of nice toys to boot as well.

Also, I'd put down the demand for female cadians as being pretty low as to warrant why they're not on any sprues, not due to any whimsy on the part of the design team

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 01:09
Depends on what community we're talking about? I don't remember signing some "this is what we agree on here" agreement. And if the "community" is so like minded, how come we have this same God damn debate every single time? And not just this, but pretty much any subject ever. We can't even agree on the basic concept of the background to even start talking about the smaller details. Hell, I know people who don't even accept female guardsmen, officers or commissars, because there's no fluff for them apart from the odd BL novels, and those things are crappy credibility because of Goto.

No, I think Kage is right. It's not about a universe, but every and everyone's personal *insert name*-verse where they collect all the theories and bits of fluff they prefer for themselves. The only unifying thing is the same source for the fluff, but even if you give a dozen cooks the same items, they each make their own version of the set dish.

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 01:22
If the "community" is so like minded, how come we have this same God damn debate every single time? And not just this, but pretty much any subject ever. We can't even agree on the basic concept of the background to even start talking about the smaller details.
Good point. There ever been a single background thread on warseer where any kind of agreement was reached.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 01:23
Hey, I didn't sign anything either so rest assured no one's forcing me to take this point of view. Don't assume I'm trying to establish that the community is 'open-minded' or able to say whether something is right or wrong. We all know that's baloney.

And nor am I saying that the finer details are agreed upon by anyone two people at any given moment-

But like your example of cooks, there's certain things we generally agree upon often at varying degrees. My eggs benedict may have salmon and turkish bread while yours has a muffin and bacon, but we still both need hollandaise and poached eggs to make it eggs benedict

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 01:38
But like your example of cooks, there's certain things we generally agree upon often at varying degrees. My eggs benedict may have salmon and turkish bread while yours has a muffin and bacon, but we still both need hollandaise and poached eggs to make it eggs benedict
I'm sure it's a wonderful analogy, but I just keep thinking, "what the heck is eggs benedict?"

Anyway, I think it's a nice romantic notion to believe that there are certain things that all we players can agree upon, but I really honestly don't believe it.

It's just wishful thinking.

We naturally want to assume that the majority of people think like we do, and agree with us on larger points of fluff, but it just isn't so. Even the most basic points of the fluff are hotly debated whenever they are brought up online.

It is a symptom of the way the fluff is written. It is written so that it can be interpreted many different ways, and, lo and behold, it is.

Like GW has explained,

The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known
You cannot expect a community consensus on an unknown.



Also, I'd put down the demand for female cadians as being pretty low as to warrant why they're not on any sprues, not due to any whimsy on the part of the design team

Hmm...
Hey, Doc, how's the business with those resin kits?

Insanely busy.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 01:58
*head slap*

You're still missing the point.

OK here, examples of fluff that the ENTIRE community of gamers agree upon, all of varying degrees of detail:

This game is set in the 41st millenium
The Imperium is lorded over by a mummified husk of a human known as the Emperor
Eldar are effectively Space Elves and most of them fly around in large ships called Craftworlds interconnected by a 'Webway'

Now, right there you can't tell me there's anything there any person who's part of this hobby disagrees with. This is all part of the background story that we all buy into when we engage in this hobby. I could go on, but that isn't the point nor is it important in regards to this argument - all I'm establishing is that there IS a basic background story we all agree upon.

From there we delve into the finer details, and the areas that become convoluted through different viewpoints and interpretations. We have a broad spectrum of things that no one's going to agree upon definitively. But that doesn't mean we can't gleen a general consensus of what the community agree upon on certain topics. Whether you agree with that consensus is up to you and your own personal preference of course, but you leave yourself open to scrutiny if you choose to go either way.

Though perhaps I see a lot more agreement in the Background section of this forum than you. Sure there's plenty of terrible arguments, but a lot of queries often get resolved very quickly

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 02:24
Yeah I'm suprised this hasn't been shut down already - I would've thought any topic that has 'female' and 'space marine' associated with it would have the forumslords cracking their whips

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 02:29
Yeah I'm suprised this hasn't been shut down already
The interesting thing I've noticed is, it's always the anti side that ends up trolling and flaming and getting in trouble with the mods and getting the threads closed.

I think that says something.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 02:31
OK here, examples of fluff that the ENTIRE community of gamers agree upon, all of varying degrees of detail:
Lets see, as I've seen my fare share of arguments over the years...


This game is set in the 41st millenium
Though one can play any timeline one wants, as pointed through the Apocalypse release. Not to forget that playable special characters like Macharius aren't exactly alive in the late 41st millenium. And some novels and short stories outside of the HH series venture into later times (there was one thread about BL story timelines).


The Imperium is lorded over by a mummified husk of a human known as the Emperor
Not only are there theories that the Emperor is in fact Horus, there is also the speculation whether or not the Emperor is human at all. So lets just say there's a person called the Emperor on the golden throne.


Eldar are effectively Space Elves and most of them fly around in large ships called Craftworlds interconnected by a 'Webway'
Many get nerd rage when eldar are referred as elves. They're not elves, they're aliens that are alien and beyond all human comprehension on all counts. Or so I've been told. And we have no idea how large the non-craftworld population is (this includes exodites, DE, outcasts, harlequins, croneworlders, etc.)



But to be fair, I understand your point. My guide on fluff interpretation has always been "reasonable doubt." Imagine yourself as a jury member and all the stuff that flows from every direction as the evidence. Fluff rapers and nay-sayers present the defence and prosecution, presenting you the evidence in different forms. Everything has to be taken as heresay and not as 100% fact, as it is intended on behalf of GW with the overly used (Imperial) POV rather than an objective view on things. "Mentioned in the fluff" (or similar) is merely a precedent to be used as an argument. So in this case the fact that there once were female models sold under the name "female Marine" sets a precedent. Of course, it's not a clear cut case and other evidence might weigh it down, such as that it hasn't happened ever since.

So, given all the evidence that has been handed out, do I have a reason to doubt the Emperor is a can of peaches? No, I don't.


Actually, they've advanced the timeline enough that it's the 42nd now.
They have?
I've heard the Eisenhorn stories are compiled in the 42nd millenium by some other Inquisitor after studying personal notes and reports and all that.

Copella
15-08-2008, 02:37
I've never really had a problem with anyone's fluff. Even when its rather crazy. It's there army, and while it may not make sense to us, it works for them. We can choose to ignore his crazy fluff, or we can choose to compromise. Give them some suggestions, and ask for a little more detail. If they can provide something that seems solid and actually possible. Than why not?
Tyranids fighting to save humans for example. Who's to say the Inquisition hasn't found some sort of psychic frequency or power that can duplicate the effects of a Hive mind. Thus giving them control of the Nids. Sound familiar? It should. Cause it was stolen right from the storyline of Blizzard's "Starcraft".
If they can't come up with something that makes sense even to them, than you will probably see them start to rehash their fluff.

PS - While they are no where near complete, they're doing quite well, Thanks again Doc.

PotatoLegs
15-08-2008, 03:05
The interesting thing I've noticed is, it's always the anti side that ends up trolling and flaming and getting in trouble with the mods and getting the threads closed.

I think that says something.

I'm sorry, but there's a lot of vehement and very zealous arguing from your camp as well. We're all guilty of perpetuating these things, but I will say that I've enjoyed this particular chance to properly explore certain concepts I otherwise wouldn't have


But to be fair, I understand your point. My guide on fluff interpretation has always been "reasonable doubt." Imagine yourself as a jury member and all the stuff that flows from every direction as the evidence. Fluff rapers and nay-sayers present the defence and prosecution, presenting you the evidence in different forms. Everything has to be taken as heresay and not as 100% fact, as it is intended on behalf of GW with the overly used (Imperial) POV rather than an objective view on things. "Mentioned in the fluff" (or similar) is merely a precedent to be used as an argument. So in this case the fact that there once were female models sold under the name "female Marine" sets a precedent. Of course, it's not a clear cut case and other evidence might weigh it down, such as that it hasn't happened ever since.

So, given all the evidence that has been handed out, do I have a reason to doubt the Emperor is a can of peaches? No, I don't.

AHHHH now we're on the same page :) 'reasonable doubt' is a VERY apt way to discuss the finer intricacies of silly things like fictitious fluff

Ixe
15-08-2008, 03:10
Tyranids fighting to save humans for example. Who's to say the Inquisition hasn't found some sort of psychic frequency or power that can duplicate the effects of a Hive mind. Thus giving them control of the Nids.

That's nothing like the thing I suggested as definitely, indisputably wrong. I suggested that it would be a violation of the fluff to say something like "the tryanid race is actually attempting to save humanity, not destroy it." Your suggestion is much more plausible, that the humans might find a way to exploit the tyranids for their own benefit. But that's nothing like just slashing apart the fluff and declaring that tyranids are actually good guys.

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 03:15
I will say that I've enjoyed this particular chance to properly explore certain concepts I otherwise wouldn't have
As have I. :)

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 03:24
Does saving one from oneself count as saving? I mean, that's what motivated the AI in I, Robot (the movie at least) to start dominating people and in Judge Dredd the universe where it was degreed that since all crime is done by the mortals, life itself is a crime.

Copella
15-08-2008, 03:54
That's nothing like the thing I suggested as definitely, indisputably wrong. I suggested that it would be a violation of the fluff to say something like "the tryanid race is actually attempting to save humanity, not destroy it." Your suggestion is much more plausible, that the humans might find a way to exploit the tyranids for their own benefit. But that's nothing like just slashing apart the fluff and declaring that tyranids are actually good guys.

True, it is not completely outlandish. Although the point remains the same. Give them a chance to explain things in greater detail. Maybe it could make sense.
Example: A successor chapter or branch of Dark Angels may be cut off from the main Imperial fleet. They may have taken heavy loss trying to liberate the planet. Now, forced to recruit from locals because of a continued threat or long drawn out battle (ie - generation length war). Or even to get enough numbers to take control of an enemy controlled spaceport. Taking anyone and everyone that survives the implantation of the black carapace. Perhaps a few women survive the ordeal. With a little study they find what it is about them that allows them to accept the process, thus screening everyone for it and eliminating the accidental deaths.
Desperate people do desperate things, and if they decide that experimenting is worth the risk, than they would do it.

Could it be canon? Maybe. Does it really matter? Not really.
Look at pre-heresy. There was a whole chapter that was, just people (men and women) in power armor. I don't think they were the super human, 7' tall marines we know today. None the less, they were men and women in power armor.

In my honest opinion, this whole argument seems blown way out of proportion every time I see it come up. Fluff or not, its a game where we can use our imagination to create whatever we want with it. GW has given us the power to write our own tales of heroics and tragedy. After all, you only get out of it, what you put into it.
I know I've had a lot of fun writing stories for my Sisters of Battle army. I've written background, founding of my Order, heroic tales, and tragedies, etc. Its a great way to kill some free time, and get away from real life brouhaha. While also giving my army a real fleshed out feel to them. It just adds to the whole 40k experience.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 04:11
People always forget the POV element. I remember someone telling about his chapter fluff, which pretty much included a reborn Emperor (their chapter master) and stuff like that.

Now, imagine for a moment a person comes up to you and tells you "Jesus just appeared to me." You might think what ever you want, but that doesn't change to fact that to that person it was real and without an objective view on the matter we can never really find out the truth.

So, to the chapter in question, the person is the Immortal Emperor's second comming, but to the Inquisition it's just a heretical plotting, if they were ever to find out. And how can they, when they haven't even caught on the Dark Angels' big secret during the past 10 000 years.

Ixe
15-08-2008, 04:14
@Copella -- I think that story is awful from a Marines perspective. Marines supposedly take only the best of the best, only from select worlds, and then only the best of those end up getting to be Marines. That's why there aren't that many of them... Geneseeds are precious, and just squandering them like that would doom a chapter much faster than simply being undermanned. Since, according to official published material, the Dark Angels are not about to become extinct because they threw out most of their geneseed, we can state beyond reasonable doubt that it's not valid fluff.

So your story contradicts a published material just to exist. I think that if you want to play 40k, you should make some effort to stay within the 40k universe. I know GW says you can write whatever you want for your army, but again, if it wildly deviates from everything GW has written, it won't fit the universe well. I certainly do not buy the idea that there is nothing set in the whole game universe. It's true that the information should be treated as potentially unreliable, but some is surely more reasonable than others. Information like "the Imperium is based on Terra" is undisputable. GW tells us that we can write what we want to, but you guys seem to be saying that "if you wrote it, then it is a good thing." That's the only criteria you are using. I would ask, rather, "does it even make sense given the reliable and/or undisputable information we have about the game universe?" It's true that nothing is officially set in stone forever, but is there reason to doubt that geneseeds are rare, and wouldn't be squandered in the manner you suggest? I think not.

Moreover, the OP has had a lot of pages to explain his idea. It hasn't progressed beyond "want to make female Dark Angels terminators." If THAT is the fluff we're evaluating, then I think it fails by even the most permissive tests of quality. I think the OP has had plenty of chances to explain, and he's not planning to. I think if someone wants to write fluff, it's on them to justify it to others and show us why it's worth accepting. It's not on me to write someone else's story for them, if they hand me nothing, then I tell them it's nothing. If they ask for help improving it, I might be willing. But one sentence cannot even succeed according to the justifications you guys are providing.

@MrBig: I think that the explanation of that story is great -- they think it's the Emperor's second coming, and it's not. If it was the Emperor's second coming, that wouldn't just be playing with one army's fluff. That would be alterting the whole game universe. That person would now be telling me something that affects my own army, which that person has no authority to do. They can't tell me "Your army no longer obeys the High Lords because the Emperor ate them all when he woke up again." So maybe that's another good test of quality: is it fluff that tries to re-write the whole universe and tell other people what's going on with their own armies? If so, then it should not be accepted. Each person gets to write their own fluff for their own army, they don't get to dictate details that contradict GW to other people.


And for everyone who's saying "if someone writes fluff for their own army, that's good and don't criticize it," try this on for size: My Space Marine chapter is led by Vash the Stampede, who's a Plant Alien who exists outside of time, and he had to kill his brother, but he's a warrior for Love and Peace now. His second in command is named Spike, and he's a badass Jeet Kun Do fighter from the Triads on Titan, from the year 2071. Most of the soldiers are various kinds of pokemons, only their sergeants are the kids from digimon, because I like them better. My Marine army has dreadnoughts, only they're actually Transformers, who have allied with my army in order to defeat the evil Decepticons.

Would that be good 40k fluff? According to some of what you've said, you're not even allowed to criticize it... And hey, nothing is set, right? Maybe everything about everything is just misinformation, and we're actually playing in a world without logic, order, or any semblance of a story worth reading about. Who knows? GW told us that nothing is set, so clearly none of the fluff even exists!

Copella
15-08-2008, 04:36
I really doubt anyone is trying to force anything on your army. Like I said, just because its their fluff, has no real impact on yours. There is no 1 set of views on the 40k universe. We have a basic time line and guide line that spits us out into the 41st M. Everything from there is where we go. Each person's own fluff is how they want to see things go. There is no need to force anything on anyone. You have no right saying, no you can't play 40k with that army, because you don't agree with it's fluff. Just like they don't have any right saying that your army must bow to his concept of the fluff. In the end its a game, played how we want to play it.
I enjoy canon fluff as much as everyone else, but i'm not going to cut someone's head off because they have female marines, or "friendly" genestealers.
As long as they aren't changing stats for them than it just seems a bit unfriendly to go that far.

Ixe, your example of the possibilities could very well happen, but do you think anyone is going to take it seriously? When you ask, how did Transformers or Pokemon enter this?, and they reply with "cause i like it". Than get a laugh out of it, and don't worry about it. I don't think they take it seriously either if they go that far. Which means they don't care much about the actual fluff of a 40k army. They like to paint and play the game, with little concern of fluff. Leave it as that. I highly doubt that they're submitting anything to GW to further fluff line.
I certainly got a laugh from it. Although I really would start to worry if someone was totally serious about that being their army fluff. Especially if they tried to force this army fluff on yours. They might possibly need counseling or something.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 04:37
Moreover, the OP has had a lot of pages to explain his idea. It hasn't progressed beyond "want to make female Dark Angels terminators." If THAT is the fluff we're evaluating, then I think it fails by even the most permissive tests of quality.
There are two categories on the subject.
1. You try to explain how things are like they are.
2. You just do it and never try to fit it in there.

You don't hear much about the Angry and Pretty Marines, their history and all that. But still people do them. If one does an entire feminin conversion of the Ultramarines (chapter master Marge Calgar, Chief Librarian Tina, etc.), does it need to be shoehorned in there? Why can't something just be what it is without too much explanations? I mean, I have a daemonic legion that has no backstory. It's just a bunch of things wrapped around a web comic that I like. So all the characters and even the colour scheme derives from the comic. I've done nothing to try and build a backstory for the said force, as it's not that kind of an army.


@MrBig: I think that the explanation of that story is great -- they think it's the Emperor's second coming, and it's not. If it was the Emperor's second coming, that wouldn't just be playing with one army's fluff. That would be alterting the whole game universe. That person would now be telling me something that affects my own army, which that person has no authority to do. They can't tell me "Your army no longer obeys the High Lords because the Emperor ate them all when he woke up again." So maybe that's another good test of quality: is it fluff that tries to re-write the whole universe and tell other people what's going on with their own armies? If so, then it should not be accepted. Each person gets to write their own fluff for their own army, they don't get to dictate details that contradict GW to other people.
Tell me, how do you know the Emperor still sits on the throne? Have you seen him lately there? How could have you, when no one is allowed in his presence. And what's to stop the Custodians from lying their asses off?
"Oh, the Emperor's slumber continues."
*meanwhile in a bar few galaxies away...*

Just becuase some chapter thinks they're the true guardias of the Emperor, doesn't mean they can't be. How would your army know the difference, since they all believe the Emperor's on His throne on Terra purely because they're told He is.

I mean, what evidence can you give that you're not controlled by some alien force that rewrites your entire brain every morning. Imagine if every time you wake up, it's like you've lived your whole life up to this point, even if yesterday you were the president of South Africa and who knows what you'll be to morrow. How can you prove something you have no knowledge about?

Said chapter wouldn't to advertising their allegiance, since it would rouse unwanted attention to them. They'll bide their time, knowing that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 04:43
And for everyone who's saying "if someone writes fluff for their own army, that's good and don't criticize it," try this on for size: My Space Marine chapter is led by Vash the Stampede, who's a Plant Alien who exists outside of time, and he had to kill his brother, but he's a warrior for Love and Peace now. His second in command is named Spike, and he's a badass Jeet Kun Do fighter from the Triads on Titan, from the year 2071. Most of the soldiers are various kinds of pokemons, only their sergeants are the kids from digimon, because I like them better. My Marine army has dreadnoughts, only they're actually Transformers, who have allied with my army in order to defeat the evil Decepticons.

Would that be good 40k fluff? According to some of what you've said, you're not even allowed to criticize it... And hey, nothing is set, right? Maybe everything about everything is just misinformation, and we're actually living in a world without logic, order, or any semblance of a story worth reading about. Who knows? GW told us that nothing is set, so clearly none of the fluff even exists!
Now you're catching on. It's like one of those Zen Buddhist techniques, where you have to let go of everything in order to become one with everything.

Besides, if you were to make that army, I'd play it in a heart beat with my Orkhab's White Whalers Ork army of deep space Ork sailors and Void Whalers. And that's actually an army I'm working on.

Ixe
15-08-2008, 05:14
I've tried my best to make it a civil conversation, not a flame war. I would point out that I have never told anyone to be quiet, or told made a personal attack on them. I did call certain ideas stupid, but that was just a lazy choice of words, and I shouldn't have said it that way. And I should point out that it was not me who first jumped in to talk about whether marines should even have female heads. I joined an existing conversation. I think it's a valid one. Maybe not quite what is normally discussed in MP&T, but arguing about whether a model should even be made in the first place is a discussion of modeling IMO. Though maybe the thread should be moved to 40k background at this point? All in all, I don't see it as a big deal.

Alls I'm saying is that, if you make something that others don't like, and post it on a public board, expect it to be roundly and harshly criticized. If you post something that contradicts existing fluff without a detailed background to support it, don't complain when it gets ripped to shreds. You guys saying "hey, it's your own thing do what you want" applies equally to both sides of the debate. I reserve the right to make my own army, others reserve the right to comment on it. And vice versa. The thrust of the opposition argument is, IMO, an attempt to suppress free exchange of ideas. I say, if you have something on your mind, speak up! People have been quick to respond "how would you like it if I did that to you?" I respond that I would like it very much. Why else do I post online, except to get dissenting views? It is not a negative thing for me to express my honest opinion. It is a good and helpful thing that could help the OP decide if he wants to actually do the thing he's planning on or not. Maybe it wont't (I suspect the OP is long gone). But maybe other people could be informed. Or maybe we could just have fun having a debate. It really doesn't matter. Telling me to be quiet is, regardless, never going to make me be quiet. If anything (as you all have witnessed) it will spur me on to heroic levels of epic debate. So maybe, instead of attacking me for expressing dissent, you should just ignore me, and the thread will die ;)

Ambu
15-08-2008, 05:26
lol, this threads going waaaaaaaaayyyyy too far, can't everyone just agree to disagree on this and allow the poor OP to make his feminators. When it boils down to it, no one's opinion counts but his and he can do what he wants to do whether poster A agrees with it and poster B thinks it is a stupid idea.

Ultimately it is HIS hobby as well and if it makes him happy/sad no one else has a right to tread on him.

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 05:41
Why else do I post online, except to get dissenting views?
I think you've fundamentally misunderstood why most people share their armies and models online. They are looking to share their hobby with like-minded individuals, not look for opposing viewpoints.
No one like to have their hobby mocked.


It is not a negative thing for me to express my honest opinion. It is a good and helpful thing that could help the OP decide if he wants to actually do the thing he's planning on or not.
There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and lambasting. If you had offered up some advice on how he could have executed the idea better, or justified it with in the fluff more completely, then your comments would have been helpful.

Here's a good rule of thumb for the future: Telling someone how to improve their idea is always helpful, while telling someone to discard their idea never is.



Maybe it won't (I suspect the OP is long gone). But maybe other people could be informed.
When people read you ridiculing someone who is just trying to enjoy their hobby, do you really think they have any desire to join your side?

If anything, you have most likely convinced several people who were undecided to join the other school of thought rather than be associated with your behavior.

Ixe
15-08-2008, 05:57
I disagree on all counts. I certainly post to get dissent, I won't believe I'm the only one, so that's not likely a fundamental misunderstanding on my part. Just a difference of opinion between us.

Also, telling people to discard a bad idea might be useful if it's not something that can be salvaged. I often tell people to throw out army lists and start over, why not fluff? I think that starting over can be beneficial. In creating an army list, I often start over multiple times before I get what I'm happy with. I don't see any reason to assume that just because someone's posted something, they're already set on pursuing it, and telling them not to is never useful. Again, just a difference of opinion between us, you can't claim any sort of absolute truth here.

Am I ridiculing anything? I'm arguing that something is not good. Is that the same thing? Again, a difference of opinion between us. I hope I'm not being insulting here, but you're starting to get awfully close to personal attacks against me. If you can't talk objectively about the subject of the debate, I suggest you take a break from posting lest you step outside the bounds of the forum rules and make this an attack on my person, rather than my arguments. I have only attacked peoples' arguments in what I hope was a respectful and logical manner, which I believe is perfectly acceptable on this forum. You disliking it is not a basis for me to stop.

As for convincing people to go to the other school of thought, I never really thought about it one way or the other. I'm not trying to rally people to any cause, or prevent them from taking any course of action. My ideas are being interrogated and attacked (neither of which are bad, btw) so I'm responding by explaining and defending them. It isn't about sides, it's about having a debate for its own sake at this point. If you don't like it, again, that's a difference of opinion. It's not a basis to gag me.

Ambu
15-08-2008, 06:25
Once again gentlemen since you two seem he biggest on keeping this alive, please just agree to disagree and leave it at that. This thread is starting to get waaaayyyyy off topic from the OP orginal intentions. If ya want to continue can you please do it in PMs.

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 06:25
Also, telling people to discard a bad idea might be useful if it's not something that can be salvaged. I often tell people to throw out army lists and start over, why not fluff?
Because fluff is 1% idea, and 99% execution. It's not the idea that is important, it is how well you present it and develop it. Most ideas aren't that great, but the way you execute them can be excellent. Some quick examples of stupid ideas done well in 40K:

Good Vampires in Space - Blood Angels
Werewolf Vikings in Space - Space Wolves
Batman leading an army - Night Lords
Roman Legion in Space - Ultramarines
Elves in Space - Eldar

And some cinematic examples of a mediocre idea executed brilliantly.

Scientist invents time machine - Back to the Future
Archaeologist finds treasure - Indiana Jones
Hero goes on quest - Lord of the Rings
Hero fights villain - Spiderman

There are very few really good ideas, but even those have to be executed well. An example of a truly excellent idea that was also executed brilliantly would be Man discovers reality is a dream, which is the idea behind The Matrix.


40K fluff is like glue. Just about anything will stick to it if you do it right. This is partially because of the Post-Apocalyptic Magical Cyberpunk genre it occupies, but also because the fluff is itself simply a series of popular sci-fi and fantasy worlds duct-taped together (40K has almost no original elements, because all of its early writers were professional playtesters, not professional writers). Basically you start with a core of Dune, add some Tolkien, some Alien and Starship Troopers, Sprinkle with Anime and cover with a dollop of Medieval Europe and you've basically got 40K.


Anyway, so my point is, you don't throw away ideas you develop ideas, because any idea can be made good if you do it right and work at it enough.

t-tauri
15-08-2008, 10:13
Several posts deleted and users contacted. Note that discussion is welcome on Warseer but offensive posting isn't. Thread closed as it's going nowhere.