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View Full Version : A couple more Space Marine questions / opinions?



Hrw-Amen
11-08-2008, 18:35
I have looked back through the threads but cannot see these anywhere so sorry if anyone already has a thread ages ago.

1: With the whole geneseed thing and it being harvested from too badly injured / dead marines, I was wondering when they make new marines do they actually implant the the physical organs from the dead / dying marine into the new recruit, or is it more that they harvest the DNA and make new clones of the organs. I was just wondering as if it was the actual organs then I feel they would pretty soon run out as some marines are going to be lost beyond the reach of the apothcary in explosions, space battles, on distant planets, in warp transit etc. Also even battlefield casulties would not always be a total success, I mean who would want old organs from a bloke who had been squashed under a baneblade or titan no matter hw brave he may have been the would not be a lot of use?

2: Looking back over the history of armour types, it seams that at the start of the great crusade most legions were equipped with Mk2 armour. By the time we get to the HH most (At least from the novels.) appear to be wearing Mk4 or Mk5 armour. Now from the latest one 'War in the Abyss,' I note that at least one of the marines is quoted as having a beaky type helmet. (I cannot remember the exact phrase used but it definately describes one.) But nothing in anything I've read in the novels, the old WD's or codexs implies that they have moved beyond that, so maybe Mk6 at a push, but normally Mk4 & 5.
So the question is how come all the CSM are wearing Mk7 armour by the looks of it? I know that they could have picked bits up off the battle field over the years and that some marines have become renagde since the HH, but surely it does not make sence for the old legions to be wearing Mk7? Anyone got any ideas?

Joe Kutz
11-08-2008, 18:50
1) The gene seed is used to grow the new organs to implant into new marines. The process is covered fairly well in a few different White Dwarf articles, Index Astartes and one of the WD Compendiums (as well as the old Codex Imperialis and some of those initial books). Each gene seed recovered can produce more than a single marine too (not stated as far as I know - but implied by the numbers). Since the chapters are required to send gene seed back to Terra for storage and testing to ensure purity and found new chapters, you need to be able to create multiple sets of organs from each gene seed in order to maintain the population.

2) If you take a look at WD 129 - it gives a grand history of SM armor. You are correct in that Mk4 or 5 should be what the CSM are wearing. Why aren't they? Because GW already had the new armor available for sculpting...or they thought the other armor looked cooler.

While GW is the owner of their fluff - it often makes me laugh at how little they seem to know about it. Every few years something is released that contradicts large chunks of what was already released.

Khaine's Messenger
11-08-2008, 19:38
I was wondering when they make new marines do they actually implant the the physical organs from the dead / dying marine into the new recruit, or is it more that they harvest the DNA and make new clones of the organs.

The latter.


Also even battlefield casulties would not always be a total success, I mean who would want old organs from a bloke who had been squashed under a baneblade or titan no matter hw brave he may have been the would not be a lot of use?

Technically both progenoids can be harvested within ten years of implantation. A chapter intent on shoring up its numbers (or that depends on other means of augmentation rather quickly--eg, Iron Hands) very quickly can do so. It's just that harvesting them upon death has become an entrenched tradition.


So the question is how come all the CSM are wearing Mk7 armour by the looks of it?

Corvus armor is Mk6 I thought? Mk7 has the flat facial grille and a few other details. Also to be noted is that Mk6 was developed alongside Mk5--the Mk6 was a stop-gap to bridge the Mk4 and Mk5 because the Mk5 required too much retooling and such. So in a sort of reverse logic, the Mk6 predates any wide-scale adoption of the Mk5 suit.

icegreentea
11-08-2008, 20:48
Thought the armor went something like this. Start of the Crusade, in Mk II plate. Mk III (Iron) was a varient that wasn't in widespread use. It occupied a position similar to Terminator armor before those were developed. Mk IV was being introduced when the Heresy broke out, and due to logistical reasons, could not be sustained. So the Mk V (Heresy) was introduced. This is the armor with flat face plate (looks kind of like Mk VII/VIII helmets), but has armored studs everywhere. It was meant as a stop gap. As it was introduced, the Mk VI (corvus, beakhead) was already in development. By the time the time Horus reached the Solar System, Marines on Terra were already equipped with VI. Traitor marines seized the research lab, and ended up producing MkVI as well.

The Mk VII (Aquilla) was developed in the end days of the Siege of Terra (on Terra itself). Its heavily based on the VI and can swap parts with MkVI armor easily. This is the version used by majority of Space Marines up to M41.

Note that the MkIV armor looks superficially like MkVI and VII armor. Plates in the familiar shape, as well as none beaky helmet. So CSM Legions will probably be equipped with Mk IV and V. Though the mentions of plunder and Chaos Forges, probably mean that they can produce MkVI/VII or at least get their hands on relatively large amounts of it to reequip their Marines.

EDIT: Just remembered. The introduction of MkIV was not even between Legions. Some Legions had priority in reequipment. For example, Sons of Horus had a nearly full set of MkIV when it turned. The over trend was that the traitor legions were better equipped with MkIVs compared to the loyalists.

Phoenix Blaze
12-08-2008, 03:40
It's my understanding that organs are not recovered from the fallen, just gene seed. Apothacaries even have a tool specially designed for doing this. Organs can be made and vat grown, but gene seed has to be carefully harvested as it is this little thing that makes a space marine what he is.

With regards to armour, I wasn't aware that Mk VII was in production towards the end of the Siege of Terra. I thought it was probably thousand of years after the Heresy that they'd ever give thought to producing more armour. Oh, and the MK IV or Maximus helmet is a kind of link between the beaky Corvus helmet and the Heresy one. Ihe front sticks out, but slopes down to give a rather menacing look. Mk IV has always been my favourite type of marine armour, and rightly so. It looks the best.

Recently MK VIII has made itself known, I think it's called Imperator, but I may be wrong. It doesn't differ much to MK VII, but it does have a higher gorget around the neck and the cables around the torso are now armoured. It'd be good to see GW introduce this on more models.


Oh, and GW always get things wrong/mixed up. They're known for not sticking to their own fluff.

Lord Dante
12-08-2008, 10:21
I have a few MK VIII minis, its a shame we dont see more of it in use.

Hrw-Amen
12-08-2008, 10:54
Yes, it is hard to get hold of MkVIII though. I have a squad I'm just about to start painting. I was going to use them as HQ staff, a bit like an honour guard type of thing. Similarly I have been collecting bits a for MkII crusader squad but do not yet quite have enough of them.

Whitehorn
12-08-2008, 11:07
It's pretty simple. Marine still convert to Chaos every day and CSMs raid Imperial resources. So there's no reason why CSM wouldn't also be seen in the latest Power Armour.

TheOverlord
12-08-2008, 11:25
Well, those CSM constantly raid the Imperium for phat lewt, I'm guessing they loot any marine armor that comes along to replace their admittedly old and possibly decaying armor.

Minister
12-08-2008, 12:52
There is also the significant point that the Chaos-controlled Forgeworlds will often have the patterns for MK VII or even MK VIII armour with which to supply the Chaos legions and chapters.

Phoenix Blaze
12-08-2008, 14:42
I still think it would've been nice of GW to through in some earlier armour types in the chaos marines boxed set when they released the current codex. It would've really given an arcane feel. Chaos warbands may raid forgeworlds and such and aquire new armour, but I'd imagine many of the warriors from the original traitor legions would want to keep the armour they wore 10,000 years ago for well, personaly reasons I guess. That and it's probably fused to them by now.

Leftenant Gashrog
12-08-2008, 14:53
Corvus armor is Mk6 I thought? Mk7 has the flat facial grille and a few other details. Also to be noted is that Mk6 was developed alongside Mk5--the Mk6 was a stop-gap to bridge the Mk4 and Mk5 because the Mk5 required too much retooling and such. So in a sort of reverse logic, the Mk6 predates any wide-scale adoption of the Mk5 suit.

Thats pretty much.. wrong, icegreentea has the right version. Although his bit about MkVII being based on MkVI is.. sortof correct, MkVI/VII were both designed by the same design program, MkVI was the semi-finished version rushed into production as a stopgap until the design was totally complete. (except that where MkV was quickly abandoned, many chapters chose to continue using MkVI rather than upgrade to MkVII - and as such remains in production to this day.)



Recently MK VIII has made itself known, I think it's called Imperator, but I may be wrong.

Imperator is another name for MkVII, MkVIII is called Errant armour.

Phoenix Blaze
12-08-2008, 18:25
Thanks for the confirmation.

As for the MK V Heresy armour, I was under the impression that it was never really planned and that due to the MK IV's complicated design, the MK V was thrown together and made up of some new bits, but mostly parts from old suits of armour that were easy to maintain.

I think the MK IV was also made of materials that were difficult to produce.