PDA

View Full Version : Something about Space Marines bothers me



MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 00:03
Ok, I have a little problem with bikes. During the Heresy (Based upon the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book along with various other fluff sources) the legions used JETbikes. Now unless I am blind and possibly insane, the current Space Marines, and their traitorous counterparts in the chaos legions use what appear to be nothing more than glorified motorcycles. What gives? Shouldn't they have improved on their jetbikes rather than revert to primitive wheeled bikes?

Lionsbane
12-08-2008, 00:10
Quite a bit of Imperial Tech has reverted during the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy. Remember these are people who do not recognize technology as a science, but rather as a religion. So one day when the prayer of initialization at the grav bike assembly plant failed to work they had no idea what to do other than pray to the ommisah. Either that or it was on one of the planets bombed into non-existance in the past 10,000 years.

MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 00:24
You make a good point, however I feel as though the first founding legions who remained loyal, particularly the massive Ultramarine legion to retain technology like that.

Chem-Dog
12-08-2008, 00:25
You're missing the main point about the Imperium as it stands today, there is little innovation and every day technology is lost through ignorance and stupidity. The technology required to assemble and maintain Jetbikes is rare and getting more so with every passing year.
I Imagine that Jetbike use never made it past the "Specialised Corps" stage in the Marine Legion and therefore weren't too high in numbers, 10000 years of conflict have simply whittled them down to the extraordinarily rare level.

Of course, if your talking specifically about the Ultra Marines, Guilleman may have decided their usefulness was far outweiged by the danger the presented to the rider and/or the time and effort required to maintain them made them pointless in the new streamlined "Chapter", thus dropping them from mention in the Codex Astartes.


While it's true that Jetbikes were available to both SM's and IG they were still relatively uncommon, usually the preserve of Techmarines (http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894105marines-h.htm) and Chaplains (http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894106marines-h.htm) ect or IG officers (http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894012igrriders-h.htm).

Ultimately it was a retroactive step to make greater the differences between the Eldar (the only race using jetbikes after the change) and the Imperium, a distinction which wasn't largely needed in RT's foundations as a strongly RPG based wargame.

MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 00:30
Now that makes sense. I'm sure that records of the jetbike tech exist, but it probably isn't available to most in the imperium. The idea of making the differences between eldar and imperium makes even more sense. If marines had jetbikes and also those wonderful landspeeders, they would be too similar to eldar.

olmsted
12-08-2008, 01:53
bingo. besides even if the tech was still had its locked up deep in mars and those idiots dont have an idea of what they are doing.

DapperAnarchist
12-08-2008, 02:08
Jetbikes were banned under the Codex Astartes was always my understanding - a little reference to the point where it was decided only the Eldar may have jetbikes, between 1st and 2nd ed. I know AG was completely banned for IG, with only IN aircraft using anything like that.

The Imperium is PACKED full of antigrav. There are probably worlds out there where the rich kids race jetbikes over the poor slummers, or where the cities float cos of horrible things on the surface. How do we know they have Anti-grav? Imperial tech that uses it - Landspeeder.
Floaty skull things.
Floating pulpits seen here there and everywhere.
Cherubs.
Landing Ships - the IG ones are huge blocks, fortresses that lower themselves on to the surface. That needs AG.
Explorator fleets use a lot of jetbike tech, apparently.
Theres probably other stuff... Thunderbird perhaps? Explains why a thing like a childs drawing of a plane can do that stuff.

And theres a simple answer - why doesn't the US Army field vehicles based on the latest muscle or sports car? Cos those things require huge amounts of upkeep from skilled mechanics, and can't handle the rough handling of a military environment. AG tech could well be similar.

MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 02:56
There is a benefit to motorcycles and that is the whole TLOS rule in 5th. Marine bikes are lower to the ground.

Chem-Dog
12-08-2008, 03:01
It's mentioned here and there too Dapper, Eisenhorn has nippy little Civilian speeders on a rather well off word (think it was Thracia).

olmsted
12-08-2008, 03:12
thracia prime.

well if your talking about high power muscle and sports cars in the military..... well theres so many things wrong about that.

Feor
12-08-2008, 03:18
Indeed, Servo-skulls, if nothing else, prove the imperium knows how to replicate anti-gravity technology.

However, there's the key right there: "Replicate" they don't create, they don't invent, they copy what's already out there, and if the original is destroyed (or reduced to such a low number that trying to back-engineer one would be too risky to be worthwhile) they can't make any more of them.

There are still a handful of Jetbikes in service in the Imperium, with the Dark Angels and their successors, but they are precious relics held by a force outside the jurisdiction of the Adeptus Mechanicus (theoretically, an Astartes chapter doesn't even have to answer to an Inquisitor).

Meanwhile, the Adeptus mechanicus has declared any research into anti-grav tech (though their idea of "research" is "put bits we know about together in new ways until you get something new") to be heretical, and even when some innovation is made it can take centuries for the AdMech to sanction it (see the Crusader or Pred Annihilator, something like 700 years from Prototype to sanctioned design).

As to whether they have the designs for anti-grav technology or not. They do, just no one knows where it is. The AdMech has a complete (or almost complete) set of STCs on Mars, unfortunatly, it's in hard copy in a giant underground labarynth-esque library, and they don't have a map. The designs for the Land Speeder, Land Raider, and civilian Land Crawler were all discovered during an expedition into this library by Magos Arkham Land, who vanished on a subsequent expedition. The only clue ever found to his fate was a journal by one of his assistance which described how the party was slowly picked off by something that sounds peculiarly like Necron Wraiths or Flayed Ones.

MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 04:35
Man, I would love to have a jet-bike. Anyway, I am a staunch supporter of the Imperium but the AdMech irritates me to no end. Always banning things, and hereticizing others.

Brother Siccarius
12-08-2008, 06:00
Indeed, Servo-skulls, if nothing else, prove the imperium knows how to replicate anti-gravity technology.

However, there's the key right there: "Replicate" they don't create, they don't invent, they copy what's already out there, and if the original is destroyed (or reduced to such a low number that trying to back-engineer one would be too risky to be worthwhile) they can't make any more of them.

There are still a handful of Jetbikes in service in the Imperium, with the Dark Angels and their successors, but they are precious relics held by a force outside the jurisdiction of the Adeptus Mechanicus (theoretically, an Astartes chapter doesn't even have to answer to an Inquisitor).

Meanwhile, the Adeptus mechanicus has declared any research into anti-grav tech (though their idea of "research" is "put bits we know about together in new ways until you get something new") to be heretical, and even when some innovation is made it can take centuries for the AdMech to sanction it (see the Crusader or Pred Annihilator, something like 700 years from Prototype to sanctioned design).

As to whether they have the designs for anti-grav technology or not. They do, just no one knows where it is. The AdMech has a complete (or almost complete) set of STCs on Mars, unfortunatly, it's in hard copy in a giant underground labarynth-esque library, and they don't have a map. The designs for the Land Speeder, Land Raider, and civilian Land Crawler were all discovered during an expedition into this library by Magos Arkham Land, who vanished on a subsequent expedition. The only clue ever found to his fate was a journal by one of his assistance which described how the party was slowly picked off by something that sounds peculiarly like Necron Wraiths or Flayed Ones.

That's actually questionable depending on if Jet bike technology was originally created by the Admech or if it was STC.

I know a lot of people forget these things, but the Admech has actually created quite a bit on their own without STC designs, namely bionic, genetic, and psyker technology. Power Armor and Terminator armor themselves were designed slowly over hundreds of years during the crusade by the Admech.

Either way, Jetbikes in use by the chapters have dwindled in number over the millenia to where they don't have enough numbers to be adequately fielded. Whether it's because they can't afford the price from the admech (as is the case with Terminator and Power Armor) or they cannot be replicated (ala lost technology, possibly stolen/lost/destroyed when Mars did the split) is up to the fluff.

Lord Dante
12-08-2008, 10:17
Any advanced tech is going to be hard to upkeep - saying that, the SM still use land-speeders which are anti-grav jetbikes with two seats...

Griffty
12-08-2008, 13:53
But SM build their own vehicles and so maybe didn't tell the smelly admech, in their dirty old robes and with their bizarre superstitions how to make the land speeder.

That or the admech didnt say pretty please

icegreentea
12-08-2008, 14:14
But SM build their own vehicles and so maybe didn't tell the smelly admech, in their dirty old robes and with their bizarre superstitions how to make the land speeder.

That or the admech didnt say pretty please

No, landspeeders and related anti grav technology is in standard STC. The various Inquisitor novels (Eisenhorn and Ravenor) suggests that at civilians have access to anti grav technology.

You can explain away Jet Bikes by saying that they use a non compatible form of anti grav tech, and that the STC patterns for constructing spare parts were lost. As a result, the remaining Jet Bikes (rare to begin with) are lost due to attrition, and cannibalization. The SM (Dark Angles particularly) are the only ones left with any significant amounts because they had the most to begin with, and revered the machines the most. There was some line in a Codex that suggested that the Ravenwing Captain had the last Jet Bike in the Imperium. Kind of silly, taking it as an exaggeration. Due to the revered status of the Jet Bikes, not even Marines would refit them with different anti grav tech.

Btw, whats the fluff status on Dreadnoughts... can new shells still be built? It is like, Titan slow to build them?

sydbridges
12-08-2008, 14:28
Meanwhile, the Adeptus mechanicus has declared any research into anti-grav tech (though their idea of "research" is "put bits we know about together in new ways until you get something new") to be heretical, and even when some innovation is made it can take centuries for the AdMech to sanction it (see the Crusader or Pred Annihilator, something like 700 years from Prototype to sanctioned design).

I love that bit of fluff about the annihilator. "Hrm, the space wolves seem to have stuck lascannons all over the vehicle. That's probably heresy, we'll get right back to you on that." 200 years later (reading the article in IA IV), 190 years after the other Space Marine chapters went, "Hey, that's a great idea, we're adopting it!" the Tech-Priests finally come by and say, "Oh, yeah, it's cool. We won't have... uhh... all the Space Marines charged with Techno-heresy."

Oh, and for Jetbikes, I imagine they were specialized before the AdMech forgot how to make the military models (and at that point, of course, no one is going to try and work out how, that'd be Techno-Heresy), and I could see certain armies that don't like crazy technology, like the Space Wolves, outright refusing to take them when they were available. If they don't like jetpacks, I doubt they like jetbikes either.

Griffty
12-08-2008, 15:11
No, landspeeders and related anti grav technology is in standard STC. The various Inquisitor novels (Eisenhorn and Ravenor) suggests that at civilians have access to anti grav technology.

As are landraiders, predators, leman russ' etc and their related tech yet civilians don't have access to them.

The landspeeder is indeed based on a STC template found by Arkhan Land but since only the SM use/make them for military use we must assume the (fluff) reasons, some speculation:
Their use was limited by a decree similar to that governing Land Raiders.
AdMech cannot/will not build them.
STC lost by the Admech and only retained by SM's.

I don't take much that is written in BL novels as anything other than poorly regulated background written with plot in mind, not consistency. If the civilian populace do indeed have access to anti-grav and the battlefield benefits are as obvious to Imperials as they are to us then why are they not more widely used? We know the answer is table-top game balance/variety but like so much of the GW IP fluff and table-top do not mix.

Marsekay
12-08-2008, 15:48
Think of the STC system as a large computer console (imagine a giant SNES)

now you plug in different carts (cartridges) for the attached factory to build.

plug in the land speeder cart, it builds land speeders, plug in servo skull carts and it builds those etc.

now if you havnt got the land speeder cart, you cant build it even tho you have all the gear to build similair stuff with!

thats how i look at it....

Hence they have the factorys capable of building anything, except somebody lost the cart collection years back and they are now on a quest to find new carts. ( i suggest they try ebay :P)

Can you imagine the "fun" of plugging in a new cart?

arkan land plugs in the first cart, and they would be like "bloody hell! its built a massive tank! awesome!"

same with the landspeeder.

i think its also mentioned the STc makes rubbish things like toilet roll holders..

you wouldnt be hapy if after a decade long expedition into the library you came out and plugged that one in......

sydbridges
12-08-2008, 15:52
As are landraiders, predators, leman russ' etc and their related tech yet civilians don't have access to them.

That's probably more of a "Why on earth would we give civilians access to equipment which would make rebellions easier" than a technology issue.


AdMech cannot/will not build them.
STC lost by the Admech and only retained by SM's.

Both of these reasons for Landspeeders being SM only are pretty unlikely. From what I remember, Space Marines basically get all but the simplest equipment from the AdMech - Techmarines can make simple stuff like ammo, maybe replacement armor bits, but they don't build vehicles or anything particularly complex.

EDIT - Oh, hey, the IA article I mentioned earlier says I'm completely wrong. "Most Space Marine Chapters have the facilities to construct their own armored vehicles." It goes on to talk about the forges where they build Rhinos, and how they get earmarked for Predators.


I don't take much that is written in BL novels as anything other than poorly regulated background written with plot in mind, not consistency. If the civilian populace do indeed have access to anti-grav and the battlefield benefits are as obvious to Imperials as they are to us then why are they not more widely used? We know the answer is table-top game balance/variety but like so much of the GW IP fluff and table-top do not mix.

Eh, it seems pretty simple to explain why civilians have jetbikes but the military doesn't. The military is going to want their jetbikes to be resistant to being shot, something not required by a civilian vehicle. Adding armor to a jetbike means making changes to existing technology, something which as previously mentioned gives the AdMech all sorts of fits. Not only would you have to add armor plating, but you'd probably need a better engine to keep the speed while dealing with the extra weight of the added armor - and if you thought they were mad about you plating on armor, wait until they find out you've committed the most basest of heresies, modifying the blessed heart of a machine. Those'll be some unhappy cogboys.

Anyone attempting to adapt civilian technology to military use would probably be burnt by the AdMech as a heretic, anyone they worked with would be burnt, probably their families would be burnt (in case inventiveness and creativity ran in the family), the prototype would be taken, reverse engineered, declared heretical, and burnt, and the factory where it was built would probably be burnt to ensure the taint of the heretical machine was fully cleansed, a new factory then built in its place.

MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 16:25
I think we should burn the ADMECH as heretics. Those lazy bastards are slowing down the progress of the imperium which could be associated with sabotage which is also a form of both rebellion and heresy.

Emperor's Grace
12-08-2008, 18:19
I always imagined it had more to do with the exotic materials required and/or power to weight ratios.

In other words:

They can still make AG plants but not ones efficient enough to be useful for SM/IG purposes.

sydbridges
12-08-2008, 18:32
I always imagined it had more to do with the exotic materials required and/or power to weight ratios.

In other words:

They can still make AG plants but not ones efficient enough to be useful for SM/IG purposes.

If they can make civilian jetbikes and Landspeeders, both using AG engines, presumably they *could* make something in between. Of course, trying to do so would be tampering with the divine blueprints of the Omnissiah, a corruption and heresy likely worthy of death... Ah, the joys of the AdMech. The guys who know the most about science and technology are the guys who will declare you a rogue and have you declared an enemy of the Imperium to be killed on sight if you go making changes. The Imperium can't really advance their knowledge with them blocking progress, but if they got rid of them, then the Imperium would lose most of the knowledge they have.

Flame Boy
12-08-2008, 19:26
Then again, you can hardly blame the Admech when so many discoveries they make go horribly wrong, in a way that would make a cataclysmic explosion seem preferable. The BFG books tell of entire classes of warship that were flawed from the start and a staggeringly high figure of commissioned ship's crews turned traitor due to the damned nature of the ship design, and the Dreadclaw assault boat, which had an artificial intelligence that turned out to be outwardly malevolent. There's also a story in one of the black library novels, "Planetkill", Which shows the death of an Imperial planet trying to resurrect ancient alien technology to protect them from the immminent threat of Abbadon's Planet Killer. With those sorts of disasters being real threats, I can imagine why research and development is extremely slow in the Adeptus Mechanicus.

sydbridges
12-08-2008, 19:54
True, they seem to do research on all the wrong things.

"Put lascannons on a predator! That's crazy. Now help me make this living embodiment of psychic power and chaos while breaking into this necron tomb with the signs that in the Eldar language say, 'Hey, Human, get the hell away from those doors! Nothing good will come of this! You will all die! I have seen it! Seriously! Damn it I hate you guys!' While we're at it, let's tamper with the geneseed and make some marines that just sort of burst into flames at times for no good reason."

Apparently the philosophy of the AdMech is, "if it can't go horribly wrong, it's a heresy to try."

MarinesInSpace
12-08-2008, 21:14
Marines bursting into flames? FLAME FALCONS?! That would be a hilarious special rule. Combust. Roll D6 for each unit. On a roll of 1 one model combusts with such force that it causes a chain reaction, well done! Each model in the unit must roll D6 for combustion. 2-5 model combusts normally. On a roll of 6, the model does not combust, shame on you.

zoodog
12-08-2008, 22:26
I think we should burn the ADMECH as heretics. Those lazy bastards are slowing down the progress of the imperium which could be associated with sabotage which is also a form of both rebellion and heresy.

I like to think of them as the most successful professional organization ever. When knowledge is directly related to power and standing, and you spend 20 years moping the floor and doing someones simple errands and long division just to learn basic mechanical operations you get upset when someone uninitiated thinks they can just play around and make them better.

I also feel that given humanity has been its own worst enemy for quite a while (though necrons and nids are trying to change that) their is less incentive to build better weapons when your just going to end up fighting against them and they may lead to more rebellions then they solve.

Lothlanathorian
12-08-2008, 23:13
STC doesn't get a cartridge stuck in it, it gets needs programmed into it and then it pops out a what you need to build, a blueprint or 'template' if you will.

DapperAnarchist
12-08-2008, 23:51
Thats an intact STC, which the AdMech do not have - they only have printouts, and for some things, 2nd or 3rd generation printouts.

PondaNagura
13-08-2008, 00:34
i think producing jetbikes with armor is one part of it, but i also think training might be a factor as well. most chapters don't have access to jetbikes, let alone vets who know how to ride them, fight with 'em, and dodge incoming enemy fire at the same time.
at least with land speeders there's adequate armor [snicker], and with bikes you can just slow down and hunker behind some cover. jetbikes kind of leave you exposed and all on your own, or at risk with colliding with the guys floating around you...

also i don't think all admech are as dimwitted as most people are lead to believe. i think they like keeping the rest of the imperium in the dark on technology, to keep their monopoly. some of the lower cogboys are as limited as guardsmen, but the arch magos that fool around with alien tech (ssh, no they don't), have to have at least some basic understanding of physics to determine how things work with a necron gauss flayer.
part of the idea that keeps em in the dark is the over ritualization of their assembly-line practices...it used to just add to the dogma/gothic imagery of the imperium, while adding a little tongue in cheek humor to it [cogboys from ciaphas cain novels for example].

Chem-Dog
13-08-2008, 00:54
well if your talking about high power muscle and sports cars in the military..... well theres so many things wrong about that.

I was more pointing out the technology still exists, I'm not suggesting the Imperium use leisure skiffs as battle tanks (although....... this IS the Imperium ;))


Any advanced tech is going to be hard to upkeep - saying that, the SM still use land-speeders which are anti-grav jetbikes with two seats...

True but it could be the additional power and control needed to make a bike work that's lost, hell, with the AM it could easily be the exact measurements of a washer that's lost....

It's happened before, the technology to make Chaos Space Marine Jump packs (the kind that let you hit and run) was lost so now bigger/ bulkier jump packs (that don't let you hit-and-run) are de rigeur.



Eh, it seems pretty simple to explain why civilians have jetbikes but the military doesn't. The military is going to want their jetbikes to be resistant to being shot, something not required by a civilian vehicle. Adding armor to a jetbike means making changes to existing technology, something which as previously mentioned gives the AdMech all sorts of fits. Not only would you have to add armor plating, but you'd probably need a better engine to keep the speed while dealing with the extra weight of the added armor - and if you thought they were mad about you plating on armor, wait until they find out you've committed the most basest of heresies, modifying the blessed heart of a machine. Those'll be some unhappy cogboys.

Exactly, "Military grade" is a whole different kettle of fish.


Anyone attempting to adapt civilian technology to military use would probably be burnt by the AdMech as a heretic

The AM just scrub your mind then replace your left arm with a toilet brush and put you on toilet cleaning duty for the next 200 years.
Besides any Civilian attempting to adapt tech to military use is probably three ways screwed already as they are either A) already Heretics, B) under attack from something big and nasty that's killed all of the military or C) In the path of a Waaagh, Splinterfleet, Black Crusade, Hrud Migration etc.


With those sorts of disasters being real threats, I can imagine why research and development is extremely slow in the Adeptus Mechanicus.

If the AM actually DID R&D I would agree with you, the whole point of the AM is they are superstitious to the extreme, they try to use technology developed aeons ago that they have no understanding of how or why it works, simply settling for the knowledge that pressing button iiiv will fire the engine (ignore button iiix, we've never used it). The whole thing of ritually striking the casing is classical exemplar of "doing something because somebody else did it and it worked" rather than using any, even basic, problem solving skills.


Thats an intact STC, which the AdMech do not have - they only have printouts, and for some things, 2nd or 3rd generation printouts.

Early Gaunt's Ghosts mentions here.....There was the one that could make metal in one of the Gaunt books, although Abnett's take on STC seemed to suggest each STC machine could only produce one thing, hence the corrupted robot men, rather than corrupted cuttlery, ploughs, looms and sandwich toasters. Also dependant on where you read the STC could just give you printouts on how to make things (like the ultimate universal instruction manual) using locally available resources (yay, we just built a fission reactor out of clay! :wtf: ) or acted like some kind of huge star trek replicator actually making the stuff for you.

Brother Siccarius
13-08-2008, 07:05
As are landraiders, predators, leman russ' etc and their related tech yet civilians don't have access to them.

The landspeeder is indeed based on a STC template found by Arkhan Land but since only the SM use/make them for military use we must assume the (fluff) reasons, some speculation:
Their use was limited by a decree similar to that governing Land Raiders.
AdMech cannot/will not build them.
STC lost by the Admech and only retained by SM's.


Except, Space Marines don't build these things on their own. It's established fluff that there are only a few forgeworlds that make Land Raiders anymore (Note that these forgeworlds are controlled by the Admech, not the Space Marines). The same goes for plasma weaponry, power armor, terminator armor, Iron Halos, and all the other rare or expensive items used by the marines. Even if they had the means to build their own arsenals, which they don't, their tech marines are still trained and assisted by the Admech.


I don't take much that is written in BL novels as anything other than poorly regulated background written with plot in mind, not consistency. If the civilian populace do indeed have access to anti-grav and the battlefield benefits are as obvious to Imperials as they are to us then why are they not more widely used? We know the answer is table-top game balance/variety but like so much of the GW IP fluff and table-top do not mix.

Actually it's quite well regulated. As in, if GW felt it didn't mesh well with 40k, they wouldn't publish it (though with that, I have to admit amazement that Gotto gets published). BL has also stated that the fluff in their books is just as "true" as the fluff anywhere else, as in, it's just as skewed by viewpoints and from what perspective it's being written as anything else.

Lothlanathorian
13-08-2008, 12:10
BL has also stated that the fluff in their books is just as "true" as the fluff anywhere else, as in, it's just as skewed by viewpoints and from what perspective it's being written as anything else.

Which is an easy out. 'Hey, everything we say is right...unless it's wrong, in which case, it is because it is supposed to be, so we are still right, we just said it backwards!':p


And I like the 'Hey, this thing told me how to make a fission reactor out of clay!' approach to the STC, although I doubt it would be stuff that silly lol. More like you say, 'I need a way to power our settlement,' and it goes, 'Beep beep...wirrr...boop...' and blueprints for something practical that can be build with local resources and that fills your needs pops out. Also, it is most likely something adaptable.

Brother Siccarius
14-08-2008, 05:43
Thats an intact STC, which the AdMech do not have - they only have printouts, and for some things, 2nd or 3rd generation printouts.

They actually do, or to be more exact, did. It was given to them by Horus in return for siding with him, what happened to it hasn't been expanded on, however.


Which is an easy out. 'Hey, everything we say is right...unless it's wrong, in which case, it is because it is supposed to be, so we are still right, we just said it backwards!':p

Everything is an "easy way out" when you don't agree with it. I;)



And I like the 'Hey, this thing told me how to make a fission reactor out of clay!' approach to the STC, although I doubt it would be stuff that silly lol. More like you say, 'I need a way to power our settlement,' and it goes, 'Beep beep...wirrr...boop...' and blueprints for something practical that can be build with local resources and that fills your needs pops out. Also, it is most likely something adaptable.

Your second guess is pretty spot on to what we know about it. A functioning STC will take all known information, available resources, function, size requirements, power requirements, and give a blueprint as to what you need to build something. It's, essentially, an engineer in a box.

Logarithm Udgaur
14-08-2008, 08:32
True, they seem to do research on all the wrong things.

"Put lascannons on a predator! That's crazy. Now help me make this living embodiment of psychic power and chaos while breaking into this necron tomb with the signs that in the Eldar language say, 'Hey, Human, get the hell away from those doors! Nothing good will come of this! You will all die! I have seen it! Seriously! Damn it I hate you guys!' While we're at it, let's tamper with the geneseed and make some marines that just sort of burst into flames at times for no good reason."

Apparently the philosophy of the AdMech is, "if it can't go horribly wrong, it's a heresy to try."

I got all those other references, but when did they make the living embodiment of psychic power and chaos?


Marines bursting into flames? FLAME FALCONS?! That would be a hilarious special rule. Combust. Roll D6 for each unit. On a roll of 1 one model combusts with such force that it causes a chain reaction, well done! Each model in the unit must roll D6 for combustion. 2-5 model combusts normally. On a roll of 6, the model does not combust, shame on you.

Actually CA had rules for this. It gave the Flame Falcons a cover save and let them count as being in cover even in the open. They could not ride in vehicles though.


(ignore button iiix, we've never used it)

Your Roman numerals are flawed, there should never be more than ii on the left side of any other numeral.

sydbridges
14-08-2008, 15:24
I got all those other references, but when did they make the living embodiment of psychic power and chaos?

It was in one of the BL novels, I think the second Soul Drinker one? I think they were researching mutation at some AdMech biology station, and made some horrible psychic being that could project its will over others across space. He wasn't actually a living embodiment of psychic power and chaos, he was just a being of ridiculous psychic power who could spread disease to gain control over distant planetary populations. He was carving out his own Empire from the Imperium when he was finally stopped.

But yeah, he he did seem like some sort of like a living mini-Nurgle, so maybe living embodiment of Chaos isn't too far off, and he seemed to feel he was a living god. From what I remember, an Inquisitor ended up demonstrating to him that living gods are not immune to being shot in the head, a fatal weakness.

The Necron tomb was a reference to like three different incidents I've read so far. Apparently at the AdMech, no one has realized that the rest of the Imperium doesn't like it when you wake up an ancient undying horror whose only goal is the eradication of all sentient life (or all life) from the galaxy.

Logarithm Udgaur
14-08-2008, 22:23
As far as I remember, every novel or short story set in 40K that features the Adeptus Mechanicus has had them trying to open up a Necron tomb. Usually this leads to a lot of Gauss Flaying, followed by some exteminus.

sydbridges
15-08-2008, 00:35
As far as I remember, every novel or short story set in 40K that features the Adeptus Mechanicus has had them trying to open up a Necron tomb. Usually this leads to a lot of Gauss Flaying, followed by some exteminus.

Nope, in the Soul Drinkers they merely steal a relic from a space marine chapter, which enrages said marines into attacking them and getting the chapter declared Excommunicate in the first book, and in the second book an AdMech biology research station makes the aforementioned ridiculously powerful psychic mutant.

So sometimes, they make things go horribly wrong some other way. That said, it seems like if you want to know if Necrons are going to be in a book, the presence of the AdMech is generally a pretty strong indication.

icegreentea
15-08-2008, 01:12
As far as I remember, every novel or short story set in 40K that features the Adeptus Mechanicus has had them trying to open up a Necron tomb. Usually this leads to a lot of Gauss Flaying, followed by some exteminus.

Dark Mechanicus. 'Chaos' this time.

Chem-Dog
15-08-2008, 02:05
And I like the 'Hey, this thing told me how to make a fission reactor out of clay!' approach to the STC, although I doubt it would be stuff that silly lol. More like you say, 'I need a way to power our settlement,' and it goes, 'Beep beep...wirrr...boop...' and blueprints for something practical that can be build with local resources and that fills your needs pops out. Also, it is most likely something adaptable.

Pretty much what I was driving at, essentially tell it what you want and what you have to make it with and it'll give you an idiot's guide to building it, this is why Rhinos can be run on steam power, chunks of wood or promethium.
It's MacGyver in a box.


Your Roman numerals are flawed, there should never be more than ii on the left side of any other numeral.

They're not mine, they were there before I was born, I was just told not to push the button! :p

I always thought the rule with Roman numerals was to use as few characters as possible. In this case, I was just punching keys.


Now the thing that's always bothered me about Marines it the Boltgun....

ARM0R3D ASSASIN
15-08-2008, 07:48
Now the thing that's always bothered me about Marines it the Boltgun....
whats wrong with the bolters? u dont like the idea of a semi-automatic rocket launching (depleted uranium core) as a standard weapon? :wtf: