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Whitehorn
12-08-2008, 08:40
I've begun playing Warriors of Chaos, using the WD list.

The list is a bit thin, but it won't deter me.. I'm getting in as many games as I can to learn the army and work out some solid choices. I'm only used to playing with Undead, so the fickles of morale are my first hurdle.

Things that stand out as good:
Familiars. +1 power and dispel dice for 40 points. I like this.
Chaos Hounds WS4 - these chaps seem quite hardy, especially being so cheap, fast and able to rank up.
Marauders - WS4, cheap. I can't see many reasons to take Chaos Warriors, when you can mass these and carry your heroes with them.
Chaos Spawn. Very useful, especially at holding against Undead.

I've been taking varying army lists. I'm not enjoying a tooled-up lord as it's too many points in one investment that is easily lost (750 point Khorne unit got overran by 20 vanilla graveguard...).

I'm looking for ideas for unit choices, synergy, tactics. Also your thoughts on magic lores and how to gear up heroes. There's a lack of ward saves outside Tzeentch.

Rubicon
12-08-2008, 20:52
I think with WoC that Knights are your friends,

A unit of Chosen, 6 wide, standard and muso (no champion) to maximise attacks, MoNurgle for fear can break even ranked infantry by themselves.

I love the idea of like 19 hounds with a mounted BSB as a really quick way of getting high CR across the field

Crown of everlasting conquest is your only real ward save equivalent, but Avoid KB units like the plague.

Marauders with hw and shield, character in the front rank + two detachment type units of Marauders with flails are fun, chosen warriors will take and hold buildings better than anything, but that's a very specialised role

Heckus
13-08-2008, 19:17
I recently took my fairly new WoC army up against a VC player (who was previously undefeated, 3-0-0) in a map campaign and we tied.

He's used the same army every time: 4 caster-kitted Vampires (lvl4, and 3 lvl 2s, 12/7 dice pools, I think), 2 Corpse carts, 2 Units of 5 wraiths w/ banshees (his big killers), 1 grave guard unit and some minimal (10) skeleton/ghoul units (all of which he boosts every round via casting).

I was worried about the new Fear rules so I went with:

-Slaanesh Lord w/ Chaos Runesword (useless as I died to combat math/overrun even with 5 wounds) and an enchanted shield.
-Slaanesh BSB w/ Blade of Battle (killed a vampire)
-Slaanesh Asp. Champ w/ Whip of Slaanesh (turned out to be my MVP, killing a vampire and most of a wraith unit)
-Slaanesh Ex. Champ w/Sword of Might, Bane Shield and Daemonic Mount (planned to use him to hunt wraith units but he got side-charged and died horribly after only killing 1.5 wraiths. Again, Useless. On the upside, the unit that side-charged him left themselves open for a side charge. Still, 200 pts flushed)

Troops:
-14 Slaanesh Chosen, Shields, FC & Warbanner (which I forgot, they died with the Lord, sandwiched between wraiths and Graveguard)
-14 Slaanesh warriors, 2xHW, FC
-14 Slaanesh warriors, 2xHW, FC

Extras:
-Chariot (no mark, had 2 good charges, wiped out an entire summoned 23-zombie unit by itself but eventually was run down due to lack of fear resistance)
-Helcannon (missed every shot, even with rerolls, but when his graveguard and VC Lord came too close if charged in and killed bunches of them and proved almost unkillable, it survived)

I also had 200 pts of my ally's skaven as he was in an adjacent map hex:

25 Skaven and a Ratling Gun. (all died, but did their jobs well)

Everything not noted as dying lived. I killed both wraith units, a corpse cart, all ghouls, 1 unit of skeletons, a zombie unit, tons (but not all) of his graveguard, and 2 lower level vampires. I also dropped his lord to 1 wound two separate times.

My lessons:

1. Don't be afraid to challenge a Vampire Lord. A Chaos Lord is Just as Beefy. I would've won the game had I not wasted my Lord's attacks on Graveguard.
2. Helcannon probably wasnit as good as a Giant or some Spawn (definitely not worth 2 rares and 270 pts).
3. I went in with absolutely no magic when he had 4 casters and wasn't totally dominated (the Corpse Cart ASF bound spell is worth dispelling). More Skeletons just meant more VP. Chaos Warriors cut them down fast.
4. Marauders are cheap but it's nice being able to put marks on your troops (Immune to Psychology saved me a lot of headaches) and Chaos Warriors may be pricey but they're solid in melee.
5. Asp. Champions can be pretty tough and win challenges if they go first.
6. I missed not having my Hounds. Several small units gives a lot of leeway in set up.

Overall it was a good game. It was a badly put together force but I pulled off a tie that no one in the campaign thought would happen.

Kaotik
13-08-2008, 20:52
Just some suggestions in no order really.

1. Do not take more than one unit of chaos warriors, and make them chosen. Fill in your remaining core with marauders 10-15 man units of them. I usually take flails and 10 man units and use them kinda like empire detachments to cover my Chosen Warriors flanks.

2. Take the Hellcannon almost every game. The leadership check template will win you games at times. And as the last guy mentioned the thing is a beast even in combat so good luck rushing it with harpies/fast cav and having them live to tell of it. Also another good place for one of your small units of marauders is near this cannon to cover it and/or eat the rampage over your other more expensive troops that might be close. The only instances I would think to not take it would be against UD, VC, or Slaaneshi demons. Basically anything immune to psych.

3. Take no less than 2 units of at least 5+ knights in any army over 2k. I like to field 3 in anything over 2250. Chosen Knights of Khorne and their 15 s5 attacks along with 10 s4 horse attacks is always fun. Gotta love those frenzied mounts.

4. I have found that chariots riding along as wingmen for your groups of knights is a good idea. I will most times toss one of my mages and the BSB into these bad boys for the protection it brings. With a cost of 100 points you can always afford at least 1 of these in any size army.

5. I try to work in the giant/mutant monstrosity whenever I can, but if the opponent is Ogres or any cavalry heavy army then he is severly gimped. In those cases I would grab another chariot maybe or @225 pts you can almost pull another 5 knight unit with his points. Your call depending on opponent.

6. People will argue both ways on this one but I am a firm believer in the "Dogwall" strategy. You can field a pack of 10 or 5 depending on how shooter heavy your opponent is. When you got 40 repeater crossbow bolts flying somewhere each turn it is much better they land in the dogs @ 6pts a pop and not your knights at 50pts. I try to take a 5 pack per knight unit as a norm. They also serve as a LOS shield in the case of forced charges for your Khorne knights. Drawback to these boys is that you can very easily cost yourself a charge with the knights if you position these things wrong. Just keep in mind these things WILL die and are there to do just that, so play them like the meatshield they are.

7. Finally I have to say that people who play 1 mage in a chaos army are crazy. I like to think of it as my only outlet to match shooter armies so I will never have less than 2 mages in a 2-3k game and 3-4 in anyting larger. Have one mage lv2 as a fire and the other with a Tzeentch mark to allow you to pick magic that best suits the opponent. I also recommend the 50pt Banner of Wrath as I have already taken out 2 hellblaster crews with it in the 5-6 games I have played since I started back.

Just some randon thoughts on the army/list as it is now for ya. Hope they help.

Kalec
13-08-2008, 21:14
My favorite lord: Chaos lord with MoT, Daemonic mount, golden eye of tzeentch, enchanted shield, and chaos daemon sword. M9 means he gets where he needs to be, ward and AS means he survives once he gets there, and the sword means he does what he needs to. Not the best use of points, I'll admit, but not many lords can match him in battle without a monstrous mount.

Favorite unit: ranked chaos hounds. WS4 helps a ton against weaker troops, M7 means they flank often, and at 6 points a pop they make excellent ablative wounds for chosen warriors and knights. Running a bsb on a barded steed with MoN and the warbanner gives them the static CR to break most things, and can autobreak smaller units with fear + outnumbering.

Knights are great, though I am not a huge fan of the fully kitted chosen of khorne knight unit of overkill, since basic knights tend to be overkill enough for my needs and frenzy is very, very, bad for the eggs in one basket tastic.

I have had very little success with a magic-based army. An exalted sorcerer lvl 4 with MoT and staff of change and a power stone, and 3 lvl 2 sorcerers with a familiar, staff of sorcerey, and a dispel scroll or two and a unit of chose of some kind with the banner of wrath for the magicy part. Didn't work out to be very cost-effective. Methinks more bound spells would help.

Edit: does the staff of change let you reroll the power die for only spells you cast, only spells the bearer casts, or spells cast by both you and the enemy?

Makaber
13-08-2008, 23:34
I feel the WD list has been given a bit too much flak. Allright so maybe it's not quite up to scratch, but frankly I feel people were expecting some sort of mini-army book, which it ain't. Anyway, too much focus on the negatives, and not enough on what's actually quite neat with it, which I find is quite a bit.

I think the Daemon Prince is a little gem. Sure it's expensive, but it combines the hitting power of a rather powerful Lord, the mobility of a flier, and the staying power of a bona fide tarpit. If you give it Mark of Nurgle, you get a T6, 5+ ward, stubborn flier who hits so hard, not a lot will get to strike at it in the first place anyway. And it's relativly low Ld8 means you can still run an Exalter Champ as your general and let the Daemon Prince fly off somewhere doing it's thing. In an otherwise magic-heavy list, it might be worthwhile to invest a magic level or two on him as well, and try to get off a Flaming Sword of Rhuin for added mayhem.

The Warriors, while still not suitable for large block work, are now a bit more practical. I've been on the recieving end of a 10-man Chosen of Khorne regiment on foot with great weapons before. Sure it's a bit slow and takes a hit if charged by something up for the task (heavy cavalry or whatnot) but against most other things it's horrificly dangerous. 15 Strength 6 attacks on WS5 is absolutely brutal and more than makes up for their lack of static CR. Now, with their lower cost, they're suddenly a bit more economical. Plus, they're just really cool.

The Daemonic Steed is a bit mad. It's like a bundle of the best stats from each of the four, and I'd definitely get one. Use it like some sort of pegasus, run up a flank or whatnot. It being a 1-wound mount is icing on the cake. I can imagine an Exalted on this being a horribly good unit if used right.

And finally, as a bit of an odd curiosity: The limitation that Battle Standard Bearers can't be Generals isn't an universally rule for some reason, insteand it's written in all the army lists. Except the WD Warrior of Chaos one. It's probably just an oversight, and I can't really see any immediate benefits of it, because of how Aspiring Champions so rarely are generals anyway. But if you for some reason run nothing but Aspiring Champions and Sorcerers, you can actually have a hero who is both General and BSB. Which is odd.

Kalec
14-08-2008, 03:03
And finally, as a bit of an odd curiosity: The limitation that Battle Standard Bearers can't be Generals isn't an universally rule for some reason, insteand it's written in all the army lists. Except the WD Warrior of Chaos one. It's probably just an oversight, and I can't really see any immediate benefits of it, because of how Aspiring Champions so rarely are generals anyway. But if you for some reason run nothing but Aspiring Champions and Sorcerers, you can actually have a hero who is both General and BSB. Which is odd.


In smaller games this is a huge advantage. In the 500-750 range, you really don't want two characters, and a BSB is a huge asset. Less potent in 1K where a second character is probably a good investment, but still a very nice option considering how much killyness we can get from other units.

Kaotik
14-08-2008, 13:50
Edit: does the staff of change let you reroll the power die for only spells you cast, only spells the bearer casts, or spells cast by both you and the enemy?

That item has caused me alot of issues too. In spells like Conflaguration of Doom does that apply to ALL dice rolls in a spell? Like can I reroll my dice to continue the burning if the opponent outrolls me? Does it apply to the rolls for number of hits in a magic missile? There was another spell I cannot remember at the moment, but it was same basic principle. My roomate was playing his Daemons, dice were rolled after initial casting of a spell and my roomate tried to reroll dice throughout the spell.

After deliberation it was decided by the vast majority of people were I play that it would only apply to the initial dice used to get the spell off and after that it is the processes of the spell and not the casting of it. I still take it on any level 4 mages I take since it can negate micasts and allows you to pick your magic school based on opponents with the Tz mark.

Kalec
14-08-2008, 15:37
I'm pretty sure it only works with the initial die used to actually cast the spell, since those are the only dice used to do the casting. The rest are for other effects of the spell after it has been successfully cast, so your decision is probably the correct one.

veilwalker
16-08-2008, 15:50
[QUOTE=Kalec;2863276]

Favorite unit: ranked chaos hounds. WS4 helps a ton against weaker troops, M7 means they flank often, and at 6 points a pop they make excellent ablative wounds for chosen warriors and knights. Running a bsb on a barded steed with MoN and the warbanner gives them the static CR to break most things, and can autobreak smaller units with fear + outnumbering.
QUOTE]


How do they autobreak smaller units? It is my understanding that the MoN makes the hero a fear-causer but when he joins a unit, the unit only benefits from immunity to fear but does not cause fear itself. Unless you are implying that you are able to break smaller units that are less than 2 US, which is less than your fear causing hero and mount. Or am I missing something?


For some reason, I seem to think that you cannot mix heros with other unit types. Is it generally accepted that Mortal heroes can lead units of hounds, trolls, ogres, etc?

Peachtacular
16-08-2008, 16:04
The unit would cause fear as well.

Putty
16-08-2008, 16:06
i got an even better advice:

wait for the official army book to be released.

Whitehorn
19-08-2008, 09:18
Well that's pretty useless advice there Putty.