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Templar Ben
12-08-2008, 10:07
It was always my understanding that the Adeptus Mechanicus built the Imperial equipment. That was then traded to the Departmento Munitorum which was responsible to the transfer of said equipment to the unit most in need.

Then I noticed that the Baal Predator entry in Imperial Armor Volume 2 says


The STC pattern found within was never returned to the Adeptus Mechanicus...Any special construct methods used by hte Blood Angels and their Successor Chapters remain close guarded secrets.

in the same volume under the Land Raider Crusader


was first developed and deployed during the Jerulas Crusade by the Black Templars Chapter...was given 'Chapter Approved' status by the Adeptus Mechanicus...many Chapters had already been producing this variant for several hundred years.

So who makes the war material used by the Space Marines? From the write ups in the Imperial Armor books it sounds like Space Marines fabricate their own war machines. Even the Black Templar were able to develop and build a variant of the Land Raider being a fleet based chapter.

The Blood Angels do have an STC to go by in making the Baal but that would imply that they have the ability to build other items that are STC designs such as Rhinos, Land Raiders, etc.

I am sure someone here will have read some obsure document from a specialist game that clearly states what support Space Marines actually require and how that is provided so "help me Fluff fanitics, you're my only hope".

Lord Dante
12-08-2008, 10:14
I belive its a bit of both to be honest - think the mech are responsible for large ammounts of equipments, perhaps new advances etc... but each Sm chapter, or IG world has the ability (or at least should do ) to remains self sufficient.

Wiseman
12-08-2008, 12:16
Always thought the Crusader wasnt constructed, so much as modified, they needed more firepower so stripped the lascannons off, and stuck bolters there instead, not a major change i would imagine.

Sai-Lauren
12-08-2008, 12:19
A better way to think of it is that the Marine chapters are more like very close allies of the Imperium - they can persue their own interests, wage war on their own, etc. They're part of it, yet not totally under it's control.

The only persons they're really answerable to are The Emperor (not really taking calls), any of the surviving loyalist primarchs (dead, in stasis or missing), or the High Lords of Terra.

A chapter is pretty much self-sufficient in terms of war materiel and day-to-day supplies - and anything it can't produce for itself would probably be supplied by the Imperium in return for fighting in certain campaigns.

Dominus_Serui
12-08-2008, 12:21
I believe its fact that the Chapters produce and arm themselves independent of AdMech construction facilities. Hense why the chief Techmarine is the Master of the Forge (said forge beeing Marine Construction Facilities) and hense why the Marines send off their kind to be indoctrinated by the Mechanicus.

Minister
12-08-2008, 12:37
All chapters have manufacturing facilities to provide for at least their basic requirements, but most will need to make arrangements with outside agencies to provide for aat least some of their more advanced requirements. These may be Adeptus Mechanicus forgeworlds, and/or may be gifts/purchases/exchanges from other manufacturing concerns. In particular, most chapters will lack the ability to manufacture their own starships.

Fire Harte
12-08-2008, 13:16
In chapter war it mentions that the soul drinkers have commited raids on forge worlds to accquire thuderhawks and the like. I know they are a renegade chapter but I agree with minister on this. Yes a chapter will have its own business with wargear and the like, but with things like thuderhawks and land raiders, which are pretty complex in my opinion, they would require support from other worlds and such.

DapperAnarchist
12-08-2008, 13:47
Its both. The Marines build their own stuff - they have to. What if they are cut off? What if the surrounding area is conquered, and they are the last ones left? However, the Imperium gives them a lot of stuff, as tribute and to improve their combat abilities. But the Marines can still build everything they need - though they may run low on, say, AG drives for the speeders.

Griffty
12-08-2008, 13:49
The organisation of the chapters means that each chapter should have its own forge which produces and maintains its vehicles and equipment, this may no longer be true for crusading or fleet based chapters.

Admech doesn't make predators or land raiders, marine forges do. They may well take delivery of a container full of fresh rhinos and then turn them into whirlwinds vindis etc but they are generally self reliant.
SM fleets are less well discussed although some are explained, much of the Ultramarines fleet is built at the Calth shipyards, Calth being in Ultramar.

This does lead to the question, who builds inquisitorial land raiders?

Where thunderhawks are built I have never read.

icegreentea
12-08-2008, 14:21
One thing Marines apparently cannot build is Terminator Armor? As well as large scale construction of standard Power Armor. Brand new Chapters are supplied with shipments of Power Armor from the AdMech (and probably some from Parent Chapter if it exists/is possible). Assuming that a Chapter that somehow lost half its Marines (warp storm), may need help from AdMech.

Fleets are probably from the AdMech (in general)?. Most Chapters get their battle barges and strike cruisers at or shortly after foundation. Clearly they do not have the base to build these ships (considering the lead time). That parent Chapters could build them is also unlikely as that represents a massive investment of manpower and material.

Once they get their big ships, most Chapters are probably self sufficient. Probably came with big shipments of spare parts, and plans so Marines can forge their own.

Sai-Lauren
12-08-2008, 15:57
IMO, the junior techmarines, after their trip to Mars, will start on the simpler stuff, ammo, knives etc, and graduate onto more complicated equipment (heavy weapons, bolters and bolt pistols, jump packs, power armour) as they prove their worth, probably being apprenticed to a more senior techmarine at each stage, and possibly also getting their own apprentices as they themselves move up the rank - and don't forget the chapter's servitors and serfs who will actually do most of the production of the simpler items, whilst a junior techmarine will produce some as he works his way up, eventually he'll get a more foreman style role.

The rarer tech - Terminator armour, Dreadnoughts and so on, is very labour intensive and will be produced only by the most senior techmarines, and that's only if they've got the time - if they need to put the Terminator's Power Glove down and go and repair the Land Raider that's got additional ventilation courtesy of a Brightlance or Railgun round, they'll have to go and do it.
The glove may only need 1000 hours of work (say 100 days, including all the prayers and dedications), but with combat duties, priority repairs and so on, it could well take 5 years or more from start to finish, with extra prayers etc required to re-appease the armour spirits and make sure nothing nasty has taken residence after long periods left untouched.

IIRC, there's nothing restricting use of Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers etc to Marines alone, and as no other Imperial fleets use them, I would say that they are produced by the chapters themselves.

Griffty
12-08-2008, 16:11
IIRC, there's nothing restricting use of Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers etc to Marines alone, and as no other Imperial fleets use them, I would say that they are produced by the chapters themselves.

I believe it's the BFG vessels of the Imperium section, or something similar, that explains that the marines are limited to vessels that are designed for planetary insertion/bombardment only - so that their fleets could never challenge the imperial navy. This is how the SM's get around the decision to spilt ground and naval forces that was brought into place post Heresy. Most probably do manufacture their own. If this is the case then they definitely have the capacity to build Land Raiders and Preds on their own.

sydbridges
12-08-2008, 16:30
The rarer tech - Terminator armour,

The IA article (In volume IA IV) on Terminator Armor specifically said terminator armor is built by the AdMech, at a rate much too slow to keep up with demand.

The IA article about dreadnaughts says, "The art of their construction has long since been lost, the arcane knowledge required passing into ritualized mythology, and each Chapter's Dreadnaughts are treasured relics" which suggests that it's currently not possible to build new dreadnaughts - which I'm not entirely certain makes sense (where would recently founded chapters get their dreadnaughts from, then? Do they just not have them?)

The IA article on Predators states that most SM chapters have the ability to produce their own Rhinos and Rhino variants, such as Razorbacks, Predators, etc.

Oh, and IA III states that, at least pre-Heresy, Land Raiders were built by Forge Worlds (so, AdMech). I didn't see anything about who currently builds them, but I would guess it's still the AdMech. Apparently they're only for Space Marines because the Emperor during the Heresy declared that they should be only given to the Marines as they were at the front of the fighting, and he got gacked before he could rescind the order, and no one (well, other than apparently the Inquisition since they get Land Raiders) was going to rescind an order from the Emperor.

Goruax
13-08-2008, 00:47
I, personally, debunk much of the "Cannot build!" junk about Space Marine stuff.
The majority of their wargear is based off STC's, notably the Land Raider.

If the LR is built using STC items, then it is more than capable of being manufactured, provided they have the blueprints.

As for Terminator Armour, I, again personally, believe it more than possible for a Chapter to produce their own, even if it takes them ages.
If anyone's seen it, think of the Blackbird in the Battlestar Galactica - it takes 'em awhile and they really need to work on it, but they can get it done, and with the vastly extended life-span and relatively rare combat seeing Techmarines, they can focus on these kinds of endeavours, even if the majority of their time is taken up with other, more immediate matters.


Maybe it's just because of my Chapter fluff though :p
Hell, I have a ton of Techmarines, but they don't see combat and so focus on getting their L33T skills up and so the Master can build and maintain Terminator Armour as easily (still pretty difficult) as possible.

Vaz84
13-08-2008, 01:34
A lot of things are very much askew in 40k, in terms of numbers, psychic and demographics. I very much agree that within a chapters fortress, not only are there barracks to house the marines, but likely a full blown forge, library, so on and so forth. Its easy to fathom that there's a score worth of tech marines working in the chapters forge at any time, with numerous servitors and serfs.

In my Chaos Marine fluff they have full mechanical and biological support staff to maintain the marines and armor. Whats nice about 40k is the universe is so vast, anything can happen. Its falling into a single-minded direction that limits possible opinions.

As mentioned above, the marines are basically they're on governing body, they are very closely tied to the Imperium but cannot be directly ruled by anyone but the high lords. When requested to fight renegade chapters, it a pride / making the marine name clean. In terms of other galactic enemies I see that being marine doctrine, the protectors of man kind.

sydbridges
13-08-2008, 02:57
As for Terminator Armour, I, again personally, believe it more than possible for a Chapter to produce their own, even if it takes them ages.

Believe that as you may, the Index Astartes article (reprinted in IA IV) pretty clearly states that Space Marines requisition their Terminator Armor from the AdMech:

"Although new suits are produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the production rate is so slow, and the demand for them so great, that each Chapter takes the utmost care of its precious remaining suits." The AdMech might only be the ones able to make them because as stated earlier in the article, "...Terminator suits became increasingly rare, for they were exceptionally difficult to create and maintain." If it's difficult for the AdMech, who dedicate their lives to learning how to build stuff, it's probably nearly impossible for a Techmarine, who doesn't spend a lifetime in service to the Omnissiah learning how to make everything.

That said, I could see a Chapter with very strong ties to the AdMech having their techmarines trained how to make the suits, but from how it's described, it doesn't sound like something your average techmarine could do. The nice thing about 40k is you can make up your own chapter with its own fluff to give a reason as to why you're making terminator armor; however, the vast majority of chapters don't have a single person who knows enough about the armor to build a suit - otherwise there wouldn't be a problem with the supply from the AdMech not meeting the demand of the marines.


I very much agree that within a chapters fortress, not only are there barracks to house the marines, but likely a full blown forge, library, so on and so forth. Its easy to fathom that there's a score worth of tech marines working in the chapters forge at any time, with numerous servitors and serfs.

What facilities a chapter keeps in their fortress probably varies from chapter to chapter (I somehow am dubious that the World Eaters or Minotaurs have ever had much in the way of a library), but according to the Predator article (in IA IV), most chapters have a forge for making their own armored vehicles (although it then only talks about the Rhino and its variants like the Predator, so I haven't seen anything that says Space Marine chapters definitely make can or do make their own LRs). So, yes, most chapters have a full blown forge.

According to the 3rd ed marine codex, the Ultramarines (which I would assume are typical for a Codex Astartes chapter) have a Master of the Forge (chief techmarine), 4 Techmarine Suprema (I would guess "better techmarine?"), 28 Techmarines, and 8 Apprenta (I would guess "apprentice techmarines," except I'm pretty sure those are trained by the AdMech.) So, assuming a Techmarine accompanies each Company (who knows?), that would leave 23 full Techmarines and 8 Apprenta to work the forges. So yes, about a score of techmarines.


In my Chaos Marine fluff they have full mechanical and biological support staff to maintain the marines and armor.

Since apparently half of the AdMech went evil with Horus, I imagine most of the Chaos Marine Legions if not all probably have at least some access to replacement parts and new stuff through evil AdMech friends, if they don't have techmarines (which, now that I think about it, I don't think any of the HH novels have had a techmarine, they might be a post-Heresy addition). Renegade chapters might not have those sorts of connections (if you've made up the chapter, you can of course give them any sort of support staff you want), but I could certainly imagine a sinister chapter trying to lure loyalists into deploying equipment they can't make themselves so they can steal it.

Geddonight
13-08-2008, 11:08
Hrm...

Try to remember that most chapters act in a manner based on landed knights; each chapter typically has protectorates. These protectorates tithe directly to their marine chapter instead of to the imperium. So keep in mind that when we're talking about "marines having their own forges" it isn't so much that there's a massive rhino production facility on the chapter battlebarge--it's that there are production facilities within the protectorate which can and do supply their chapter.

Heavier and more complex equipment is produced by actual forge worlds (all of which are admech owned & operated). There are, therefore, a limited number of places in the imperium which produce the big stuff--probably a couple dozen per segmentum which supply Land Raiders and Thunder Hawk variants to the necessary chapters. (what the templars and blood angels do to these vehicles after market is their own business).

Of course, it's perfectly reasonable to have smaller "forges" on the battle barges and chapter fortresses... but they'll be devoted more for munitions creation, repair, resupply, and only marginally for actual fabrication of armored vehicles.

It is my understanding that the production facilities of the Imperial Navy are used to create the ships of the space marines, but my information is much more hazy.

On a side note, I too highly doubt the "impossibility" of creating more dreadnoughts. However, given the rigors of making terminator armor (I once recall reading somewhere that once the suit is finished, it is dropped from orbit as its maiden test--only armor that survives is bequeathed to marine chapters), it probably is nigh-impossible to create new dreadnoughts that function as well as the old ones. Obviously they use something similar to the technology of the G.Throne... and look how well that's been working.

I liken the TDA creation process to that of creating ancient japanese swords--they were ahead of their time, and required expertise to create the folded and blended steel properties that made them so superior to anything else.

Sai-Lauren
13-08-2008, 12:30
"Although new suits are produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the production rate is so slow, and the demand for them so great, that each Chapter takes the utmost care of its precious remaining suits." The AdMech might only be the ones able to make them because as stated earlier in the article, "...Terminator suits became increasingly rare, for they were exceptionally difficult to create and maintain." If it's difficult for the AdMech, who dedicate their lives to learning how to build stuff, it's probably nearly impossible for a Techmarine, who doesn't spend a lifetime in service to the Omnissiah learning how to make everything.

Indeed, they don't spend their lives learning how to build everything, they certainly wouldn't need to learn how to make Chimeras, or Baneblades, or Titans, or a fabric loom and so on. And a lot of what they would be taught on their secondment to the AM would probably be disregarded when they returned back to their chapter, with them basically becoming apprentices to a senior techmarine - so long as they can still do all the rituals perfectly when the AM are around, no one would be any the wiser (I can even see the Iron Hands doing that - even though they're supposed to have very close links to the AM, so chapters like the Space wolves would have no compunctions about doing it).

So long as the Master of the Forge is alive and able to pass on his knowledge, the chapter will be able to keep building the "rare" tech, and thus maintain their combat effectiveness. In fact, along with the Master of the Apothecarion, he is probably the most important person for the continuation of the Chapter as a military entity - even more so than the Chapter Master.

Ah well, I guess I like my Marines a little more self-sufficient, aloof and not really trusted by the rest of the Imperium than some people do. ;)

And let us not forget that the heads of the AM are little more than lumps of senile brain tissue in a mechnical body, the various arms of the AM are one step short of civil war with each other and probably themselves, and information being placed archives may mean it may not see the light of day again for a couple of thousand years.

In fact, I've a theory that the AM actually have a fully working STC in their main temple on Mars, they just don't recognise it for what it is, and wouldn't know how to turn it on it, or have the right connectors for it, if they did.

Sojourner
13-08-2008, 13:25
I prefer to think that the Admech outfit the new Chapters - requiring supplies to be produced in large numbers - whereas the Chapters themselves replenish losses and do repairs, renovations and conversions. The Admech just start them off.

Emperor's Grace
13-08-2008, 14:43
I like to think that the techmarines are capable of building it but allow most materials to be procured through trade/contracts with the AdMech due to time, personnel, and material acquisition constraints.

So much to fix after a battle, so few techmarines...

heretics bane
13-08-2008, 14:48
Always thought the Crusader wasnt constructed, so much as modified, they needed more firepower so stripped the lascannons off, and stuck bolters there instead, not a major change i would imagine.

In the 40k world sticking cup holders in your APC is seen as major improvment.

The marine chapters have there own forgies are stuff along with Tech-marines which are basicly marine tech-priests. Most chapters are self sufficent but larger scale manufactoring would require the admech. A marine chapter more than likely dosnt have the tech or materials to creat a new battle ship but would probs have the facilities to repair damaged power armour and make its own bolter rounds.

Fire Harte
13-08-2008, 20:20
I would have thought that each and every marine has a good enough understanding of his armour, as each one is expected to maintain his own etc. Though i would understand it if there were damaged servos, ruined arms and missing parts, as these would require more attention.

Vaz84
14-08-2008, 05:12
I could also see that Fire Harte.

Marines and any Serfs would manage his individual armor, repairing minor holes, paint scrapes, etc. Anything major, would be taken to a tech marine / the forge to be worked over by a more skilled laborer. Its like in the HH novels where marines constantly prepare their bolter's, same idea but for the power armor.

Joe Kutz
14-08-2008, 07:13
It was always my understanding that the Adeptus Mechanicus built the Imperial equipment. That was then traded to the Departmento Munitorum which was responsible to the transfer of said equipment to the unit most in need.

I am sure someone here will have read some obsure document from a specialist game that clearly states what support Space Marines actually require and how that is provided so "help me Fluff fanitics, you're my only hope".

You actually have an obscure document already (or at least you had referenced it). IA 2 covers the Space Marines supply chain for most things already in the front of the book.

Basically Space Marines make everything they need (armor, weapons, vehicles) in their own forges manned by their own staff (some are tech-marines, others are servitors while others are slave workers). From time to time, certain chapters need to farm out work that is to large for their own forges (most likely Chapters which are not located on a planet and would have limited space/resources). This is mainly big stuff like Thunderhawks, Battlebarges and what not. In those cases they farm the work out to forge worlds near where they are located.

The arcane fluff reference pops up in some of the old 40K related books (Space Marine Army book is one spot) that mentions due to the Horus Heresy mess with Mars - the various chapters didn't want to depend on Forge Worlds to produce weapons and armor for them - so each one had its own forge in order to avoid the supply problems that happened then.

There are a few other fluff exceptions to this though...

In the same book, there is a bit of a mess in the reference to the Dreadnoughts. While it says new ones can be made by a Tech-Magos (high uppity-up within the Cult of Mars...most likely beyond the most skilled tech-marine)...it also details that many dreadnoughts are only used by specific chapters (Furioso pattern used by Blood Angels...and stated to be developed by the Master of the Forge of their chapter in M35). Both of those seem to be in contradiction, unless of course a Master of the Forge is on par with a Tech-Magos. Either way works for me, but they don't seem to work with each other. BTW - it only says it takes years to create by hand...so yep, more Dreadnoughts being created every day (given that there are probably a few hundred thousand Tech-magos who build them all the time to keep up with demand issues).

As mentioned, the fluff on Terminator armor mentions that it is created by Adeptus Mechanicus. There is also a reference in IA 4 which mentions that the Terminator armor is modified by Chapter armorers in order to make it ready for combat. The context makes it seem like the stuff that the Ad Mech is making isn't really combat armor, but the original designed maintenance armor (for dealing with high pressure, corrosive environments and high speed orbital debris while fixing reactors or ships) and the Marines actually have to add all the guns and related weapon systems.

So...yeah, kind of play it how you see fit. A large and well equipped chapter like the Ultramarines will likely be able to provide everything including ships and the more obscure armor. A smaller chapter which doesn't have a permanent home world (Crimson Fists prior to settling Rynn's World...and perhaps still, they have only been their a thousand years or so...).

Sai-Lauren
14-08-2008, 09:23
The arcane Fluff reference pops up in some of the old 40K related books (Space Marine Army book is one spot) that mentions due to the Horus Heresy mess with Mars - the various chapters didn't want to depend on Forge Worlds to produce weapons and armor for them - so each one had its own forge in order to avoid the supply problems that happened then.

Actually, that's a very good point - in the very old power armour marks article in WD, Mk4 armour production was interupted by the Heresy, and presumably there were supply problems with weapons, ammo and so on. I doubt the primarchs would have not noticed, and when Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes, he would almost certainly have made sure each chapter was self-sufficient, even if only for a maximum time of say a few months or possibly a year at most, so that if a chapter did rebel again, they could potentially be starved out if sufficient forces weren't available to obliterate them outright.

Fire Harte
14-08-2008, 13:17
I have also just discovered in the excellent 5th Ed back ground that it hints that chapters are self sufficient. Although I think they would require small amounts of support from the AD Mech, as there are a few things they obviously cannot build.

sydbridges
14-08-2008, 15:13
You actually have an obscure document already (or at least you had referenced it). IA 2 covers the Space Marines supply chain for most things already in the front of the book.

Curses, the one IA book I could never find. Thanks for sharing information from it!


In the same book, there is a bit of a mess in the reference to the Dreadnoughts. While it says new ones can be made by a Tech-Magos (high uppity-up within the Cult of Mars...most likely beyond the most skilled tech-marine)...it also details that many dreadnoughts are only used by specific chapters (Furioso pattern used by Blood Angels...and stated to be developed by the Master of the Forge of their chapter in M35). Both of those seem to be in contradiction, unless of course a Master of the Forge is on par with a Tech-Magos. Either way works for me, but they don't seem to work with each other. BTW - it only says it takes years to create by hand...so yep, more Dreadnoughts being created every day (given that there are probably a few hundred thousand Tech-magos who build them all the time to keep up with demand issues).

Although that seems to be contradicted by the fluff in the Dreadnaught article, I prefer "yes, someone can make new dreadnaughts" over "no new dreadnaughts" because the first one is the only one I find credible. Besides, as the Dreadnaught article was in IA1, we can assume that info in IA2 retcons anything in IA1 where the two disagree.