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DarkMatter2
13-08-2008, 01:00
It seems like they must have been...well very very well advanced.

The reason this point comes up is I was thinking about the battle between the Macharian Crusade and the independent human faction of Adrantis V.

Now, as the 5th edition rulebook says the Macharian Crusade was the largest army ever assembled, and we have to assume that it conquered worlds held by every kind of Xenos threat imaginable, from Orks to Eldar.

Yet this one human world with DAOT level tech held Macharius up for two entire years.

None of the current "super tech" armies like Tau, Necrons, or Eldar are able to put up that hard of resistance against a really huge Imperial invasion fleet (except maybe an Imperial assault on a Craftworld.)

What gives? Just how advanced were these guys?

Vaz84
13-08-2008, 01:26
Imagine an Army of Guardsmen, in power armor, with plasma rifles that don't get hot? I think something along those lines.

jma037
13-08-2008, 01:38
The only explansion is A REALLY FREAKINGLY BIG ENERGY FIELD. How else would a planet withstand two years of bombardment from a crusade fleet?

icegreentea
13-08-2008, 01:53
The only explansion is A REALLY FREAKINGLY BIG ENERGY FIELD. How else would a planet withstand two years of bombardment from a crusade fleet?

I thought it was also planetary defense lasers so powerful that no ship could get close enough to land troops/carry out any meaningful bombardment.

Joe Kutz
13-08-2008, 02:49
Yep - if they can't get close enough to bombard the planet...or are able to shoot down the missiles launched at it before they are actually able to hit home, you can last a long time. A really, really long time. Many of the citizens of the planet probably didn't even know that there was a significant danger at their door step - just another one of those barbarian attacks you know.

As far as how advanced, probably on par with Eldar technology wise (hover tanks, powerful lasers, plasma/fusion weapons which don't run the chance of killing the users). They would have also likely had an advantage over the Eldar in terms of armor...mainly power armor. Remember, Terminator armor wasn't actually designed for combat - the original fluff on it describes it as protective equipment for maintenance workers in reactors and zero-g environments. So figure something a bit better than Terminator armor, or perhaps on par with, but less bulky.

Also, the technology used to create the Primarchs and Space Marines is DoaT stuff (used under the Emperors cheating guidance). Genetically engineered storm troopers would likely exist...and without all the problems that exist with the current Space Marines. Platoons of bionically enhanced super soldiers (as opposed to ones with a lobotomy and a vise grips) similar to servitors - but better.

Finally you will still have robots of various types. Although the schism between true AI and man would have already happened, there would still likely have been platoons of robot shock troops. Should any Imperial (Ork or other enemy) make landfall on the planet or any of the other solid areas, these robots would likely have served as the initial response and offer the least loss to the humans.

chaos0xomega
13-08-2008, 03:45
VERY VERY VERY ADVANCED....

GW isn't exactly good with keeping things in scale, but generally, the feeling I got when reading about DAoT stuff was that they were so advanced that they (as Vaz said) fielded Imperial Guard sized forces of MOVIE MARINES all armed with RENDING MULTI-SHOT RAILGUNS, and with armor that was the rough equivalent of a NECRODERMIS/LIVING METAL. Furthermore, for cc weapons, they all had the rough equivalent of a C'TAN PHASE SWORD, and carried VORTEX GRENADES.

Dragonlv8
13-08-2008, 04:00
VERY VERY VERY ADVANCED....

GW isn't exactly good with keeping things in scale, but generally, the feeling I got when reading about DAoT stuff was that they were so advanced that they (as Vaz said) fielded Imperial Guard sized forces of MOVIE MARINES all armed with RENDING MULTI-SHOT RAILGUNS, and with armor that was the rough equivalent of a NECRODERMIS/LIVING METAL. Furthermore, for cc weapons, they all had the rough equivalent of a C'TAN PHASE SWORD, and carried VORTEX GRENADES.

Points wise, in a 3000pt apoc battle you get about 5 men.

Hellebore
13-08-2008, 05:25
I doubt they were as advanced as people claim.

If they were why did the eldar empire exist right up to the 29th millennium? The eldar covered the whole galaxy according to their codex with the maiden worlds around the edges of their empire (pg ~10 of the eldar codex I believe). The map in the 5th ed rulebook for the eldar shows the maiden worlds to run along the absolute edge of the galaxy (the galactic east and south edges).

So either the eldar empire was even MORE advanced than the DAOT humans, or humanity just wasn't as advanced as people assume. Humanity is described has fighting aliens throughout the DAOT (HH book timeline, first alien wars).

The eldar were the preeminent aliens in the galaxy, so humanity couldn't have spread across it without running into them.

Hellebore

olmsted
13-08-2008, 05:32
i cant really answer the question but im guessing that this planet is alexanders tyre. it was a city located in the ocean and held alexander back for a good while. he had to eventually build a dock from the land to advance and take control of the city.

since marcharius is alexander reborn im guessing they tried to stick with his history as much as possible

Joe Kutz
13-08-2008, 05:53
So either the eldar empire was even MORE advanced than the DAOT humans, or humanity just wasn't as advanced as people assume. Humanity is described has fighting aliens throughout the DAOT (HH book timeline, first alien wars).

The eldar were the preeminent aliens in the galaxy, so humanity couldn't have spread across it without running into them.

The way I picture it was that the Humans had surpassed Eldar with some things (metallurgy, bionics, genetic engineering) as the Eldar didn't have much reason to bother with those things. However the Eldar remained the galactic power due to their understanding and control of the warp, psychic powers and warp gate travel. When almost anything they could imagine could simply be willed to happen...it kind of takes the fun out of combat for those silly humans.

Most likely, the Eldar didn't even care that the humans were running about during that time period. The humans were settling worlds that the Eldar didn't think were pretty enough to be worthwhile, and as long as they didn't try to settle one of the worlds which the Eldar terraformed...no problems.

MajorWesJanson
13-08-2008, 05:54
I doubt they were as advanced as people claim.

If they were why did the eldar empire exist right up to the 29th millennium? The eldar covered the whole galaxy according to their codex with the maiden worlds around the edges of their empire (pg ~10 of the eldar codex I believe). The map in the 5th ed rulebook for the eldar shows the maiden worlds to run along the absolute edge of the galaxy (the galactic east and south edges).

So either the eldar empire was even MORE advanced than the DAOT humans, or humanity just wasn't as advanced as people assume. Humanity is described has fighting aliens throughout the DAOT (HH book timeline, first alien wars).

The eldar were the preeminent aliens in the galaxy, so humanity couldn't have spread across it without running into them.

Hellebore

Actually, the eldar dominance argues for high technology in the DAoT. They had the advantage of ruling the galaxy, while the upstart humans were starting from Terra at the same time. Without incredible advantages, the resources of the Eldar would have just swamped Humanity in any real wars. This high tech is what allowed Earth and Mars to push out and sucessfully expand in a galaxy belonging to the Eldar.

DarkMatter2
13-08-2008, 06:06
Aren't there mentions of Baneblades being a common MBT during the DAOT? As in, just about as common as the Leman Russ is now?

Hellebore
13-08-2008, 06:14
Actually, the eldar dominance argues for high technology in the DAoT. They had the advantage of ruling the galaxy, while the upstart humans were starting from Terra at the same time. Without incredible advantages, the resources of the Eldar would have just swamped Humanity in any real wars. This high tech is what allowed Earth and Mars to push out and sucessfully expand in a galaxy belonging to the Eldar.

But the point is that the eldar were still the dominant power until the Fall, which happened ~29,000-30,000. If humanity had super high tech then they would simply have conquered the galaxy, but the eldar empire was still around right to the end. The human race was in the Age of Strife at that point, well past its golden age. The Fall made the warp calmer and allowed the emperor to sally forth.

It's all very poetic, with the death of the eldar empire the human empire could emerge. But before that, there wasn't a human empire anything like the Imperium. Humanity spread out piecemeal across the galaxy. I don't think there has ever been any suggestion that the golden age of man had a human federation ala star trek. Warp travel isn't exact and afaik navigators didn't exist at that point in time (although I could be wrong on that point).

I agree that human tech was pretty good, but they were trying to compete with a race 60 million years old "the suns lived and died at out command" with (according to Asdrubael Vect in the Torturer's Tale) robot armies used to destroy all before them. The eldar created an empire in a galaxy populated by orks, and kept it that way for millions of years. Humanity has never had it that easy with the orks.

So I imagine that humanity went out in dribs and drabs, using their STC to take planets the eldar had no interest in, getting destroyed on planets the eldar had already claimed.

You've also go to remember, there were trillions of eldar at this point. They weren't a dying race and they covered the galaxy. They might not have had as many people as the modern day imperium but there is actually a pretty good chance that they outnumbered humanity. Think about it, the golden age saw humans LEAVE earth, a single planet. They were a young race with a small starting population.

The eldar were an ancient race that covered the galaxy with no problems reproducing and lives in the thousands of years. Dozens of generations could exist at the same time.

So the eldar at this point in time had more people, higher tech and a robot army used to guard and protect themselves. The whole 'dying race' crap only appears AFTER the Fall, before that the eldar were just as fecund as everyone else, and had the resources to support massive populations.

Hellebore

DarkMatter2
13-08-2008, 06:29
If humanity had super high tech then they would simply have conquered the galaxy, but the eldar empire was still around right to the end.

Well, humanity was obviously spread out pretty far if there were over a million worlds for the Emperor to reunite during the GC.

I would chalk it up to how the huge the galaxy actually is. 400 billion+ stars. Even the Eldar Empire at its very height would have been spread extremely thin throughout the galaxy just as the Imperium is now.



But before that, there wasn't a human empire anything like the Imperium. Humanity spread out piecemeal across the galaxy.

Yeah, I think the fact that humanity spread out piecemeal made it much more likely that they would avoid conflict with the Eldar.



They might not have had as many people as the modern day imperium but there is actually a pretty good chance that they outnumbered humanity.

I recall references to humanity already being the second most common species in the galaxy around the time of the age of strife. I doubt, given the nature of Eldar reproduction, that they ever had TRILLIONS of Eldar.


Dozens of generations could exist at the same time.

That is all the more reason for them not to reproduce really. I don't know that the assumption that just because the Eldar COULD reproduce THUS THEY DID really holds up. I have never seen any fluff mention TRILLIONS of Eldar even before the fall.

Think about modern Western society. We have medical care that makes childbirth way safer than it was in the past, and we have the resources with which to support a population boom, but the population in the West is steadily decreasing because people choose to have less and less children.

Hellebore
13-08-2008, 06:45
Don't forget though, that that 'western society' is what the golden age is based on. Ergo that arguement should hold for HUMANITY at that time as well. Thus the golden age humanity should have had a tiny population as well. ;)

Page 5 of the eldar codex says that billions upon billions of eldar cried out and fell dead. Well billions upon billions is a lot of people.

The thing is that the dying race elven business that keeps getting touted is a new development in eldar culture. Before that they were 'just another race' that happened to exist for millions of years. The population problems they had are due to the Fall.

On a personal note I find it boring that the eldar at their height had a small population 'just because' they are elves in space. I like that the Fall gives a reason for the dying race angle, but would hate for it to apply across the species in general, even during their height.

EDIT: Something else to think about is eldar benevolence (how ever accidental it might have been). The eldar with their high tech abilities were able to keep the orks at bay for millions of years. That in itself would have indirectly made the galaxy a safer place for other aliens to live. Humanity may never have left Earth if the eldar hadn't supressed the orks for so long (the chances of an ork waaagh! not hitting earth in the 60 million years since they were created has got to be astronomically small).



Hellebore

Norminator
13-08-2008, 08:29
Is it not possible that the DAoT humans and Eldar struck a truce to avoid mutual destruction? I'm sure there is some fluff talking about the expanding humans signing treaties and non combat pacts with the first races they encountered (which presumably exclude the orks).

The Venerable Archmage
13-08-2008, 08:38
I don't see why advanced human and advanced eldar civilizations could not co-exist. It was the Dark Age of Technology, when the rules were different, not the Grim Darkness of the Far Future. The eldar weren't scarred by the trauma of the Fall, and humanity wasn't a mired in xenophobia and technophobia. I'm not saying they'd have been best of chums, but whereas war and violent conquest is the default setting in 40k, that ethic need not apply to earlier, more civilized periods.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 08:39
"the suns lived and died at out command"
Hellebore

He doesn't say "your people once kicked out ass, and yet you still oppose us?" which suggests to me he is shocked that humans would dare to oppose them. Says to me that humans were never a threat to the Eldar, and they still aren't today (where is that bit of fluff from with an entire sector battle fleet attacking a Craftworld, only to be wiped out without harming the Craftworld?).


(the chances of an ork waaagh! not hitting earth in the 60 million years since they were created has got to be astronomically small).

Considering there are 200,000,000,000 to 400,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way, I think it would be quite suprising if they did hit a specific world in as little time as 60 million years.

Hellebore
13-08-2008, 08:47
Considering there are 200,000,000,000 to 400,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way, I think it would be quite suprising if they did hit a specific world in as little time as 60 million years.

Well the modern ork densities would have made it a virtual certainty. However if we assume that the eldar had pushed the orks to the fringes of the galaxy, then the chances would drop dramatically.

The 5th ed ork map shows how densely packed the galaxy is NOW, with the nominal control of the Imperium. The only reason no orks have reached terra is because of all the ordinance in the way (which didn't stop the necrons).

If that density existed during the dark age very few races would exist. If the eldar hadn't conquered the galaxy and suppressed the orks, I have no doubt that those modern ork densities would be even bigger (without a hugely powerful force suppressing the orks they would infest the entire galaxy pretty fast).

In many ways I think the eldar are responsible for the existence of most alien races in the modern 40k universe, simply by keeping the ork population in check for so long. 60 million years is a long time, although the eldar obviously didn't control the galaxy for the whole time, it took the emperor 200 to conquer the galaxy so the eldar were probably only controlling it for 59,999,800 years :p.


Hellebore

Penitent Engine
13-08-2008, 09:00
Orks-the real reason the Dinosaurs carked it :D

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 09:02
You have to remember that the Ork population rises in concert with the threat other xenos (humans are Xenos to Orks) to galactic stability. I very much doubt that Eldar are counted towards this threat, since they were both designed and programmed by the same species.

Poseidal
13-08-2008, 09:46
The way I picture it was that the Humans had surpassed Eldar with some things (metallurgy, bionics, genetic engineering) as the Eldar didn't have much reason to bother with those things. However the Eldar remained the galactic power due to their understanding and control of the warp, psychic powers and warp gate travel. When almost anything they could imagine could simply be willed to happen...it kind of takes the fun out of combat for those silly humans.
Actually, it states the Eldar Bionics are good enough to be indistinguishable from a real body part. Their Metallurgy is superior as well as Psychoplastics and Wraithbone provide much more protection with much less weight and thickness required.

Hrw-Amen
13-08-2008, 11:19
There seam to be plenty of examples of DAOT humans living side by side with aliens and in harmony with them, until that is the Imperium comes along. Now that is not to say that they have not had wars, but then everyone does from time to time. Just because of this though it does not mean that on the whole humans and eldar would have had to fight, they may have done in some places and sometimes one or the other may have won, but for the most part if they came into contact as long as they did not upset one another then why bother to bash one another about when trade and mutual understanding is far more productive. I'm sure that both the Eldar and the DAOT humans would have both understood this, regardless of which one actually had the upper hand in technology.

MvS
13-08-2008, 11:36
One of the things about DAoT humans that we seem to be overlooking is their dependence upon Machine Intelligence.

Yes they were extremely advanced, but that doesn't mean that the humans in question did the bulk of the fighting or the tech-development. Intelligent and probably self-aware machines did. It was the rebellion of these machines that began the process of humanity's true. Whatever coherence DAoT human galactic civilisations may have had were thrown into disarray by belligerent intelligent programs. I could imagine whole planets and perhaps even star systems cutting off communications to planets where intelligent machines were taking over, for fear that some viral intelligence would be passed on.

The wars between humanity and its creations would have ravaged the affected planets, and woul;d also have led to a distrust and even rejection of technology by many - hence the existence of so many feral worlds and extremely low-tech human worlds that were found during the Great Crusade (and still today).

That said, I doubt this Rise of the Machines happened everywhere. It would be enough for it to happen in central places whose fall essentially fragmented humanity. Then the rise of the Warp storms because of growing pains of Slaanesh cut human planets and colonies off from each other once and for all, until the Eldar fell of course.

Finnith
13-08-2008, 13:18
I thought the birth of slannesh took a long term concentrated effort by 99% of the eldar population. It wasnt some freak accident. They might not have known the consequences but they still knew what they were doing. Since the eldar must have spent several thousand years playing with the change in their pockets i doubt they would have taken much notice of the human upstarts other than for a bit of light entertainment in the slave pits. They probably didnt even care since they would have seen empires come and go loads of times and come to the conclusion that it wasnt really worth the effort to smack them down.

Humans and eldar also seem to have very different needs, the only main one they both need is space to make new beings and since both of them had top notch terraforming gear with the humans seemingly able to make planets habitable within afew years (drop an STC and afew robots on a planet then just wait in stasis till they are done, robots would build CO2 scrubbers and other fancy factories to make the requirements for Terran life).

Theres probably also alot of sneaky bio, viral, nuclear and planet killing weapons which either side could have used so there could have also been abit of a cold war going on which neither side would have won.

Messiah
13-08-2008, 14:43
Ive seen the DAOT being compared to the Star Trek era (fluff in RT suggest as much), so benevolent humans being allied with benevolent eldar wouldnt be far off..

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 16:03
Now -> Event Horrizon -> Star Trek (Golden Age of Technology) -> Dune (Age of Strife) -> 40k

krag123
13-08-2008, 16:12
Aren't there mentions of Baneblades being a common MBT during the DAOT? As in, just about as common as the Leman Russ is now?

Yes, it was stated that there where entire Regiments of Baneblades, but for even more fun news, while I'm not sure if this is pre-DAoT but in WD 245 it states on page 18 that the Land Raider was so common that even the Imperial Army used them as their main transport tank.

So can you imagine whole armies of Banblades rolling around the battlefield with troops being moved around in Land Raiders

olmsted
13-08-2008, 16:46
and people bitch about one. geez pansies

Alessander
13-08-2008, 17:15
Think Interex. A human society that was able to subdue the entire race of the Megarachnids (a more technilogically advanced version of them), strip them of all technology, and place them on a sanctuary "wildlife reserve" planet. The "dumbed down" version of the Megarachnids gave multiple Marine Legions trouble.

Hrw-Amen
13-08-2008, 17:26
A baneblade though seams reasonably low tech to me, apart from the lascannons in the sponsons they are not that much different from tanks nowadays, just bigger. In some ways they don't even seam as good, I mean they don't appear to have reactive armour or anything of that type. Even the various variants are only advanced in the fact that the mount huge plasma cannons or whatever, but the hull is essentially little more than a big tank hull, not very advanced at all especially for the DAoT. Same goes for Landraiders really although I do get the impression hat the machine spirit of a Landraider is slightly more advanced.

Anyone actually know what machine spirits in these type of vehicles do? Are they to perform functions like keeping the guns on target no matter what the driver is doing and that sort of thing like in tanks nowadays or do they do all manner of other stuff like drive it if the driver is killed or busy doing other stuff? For example I saw a programmer the other day on t.v. where they are looking at AI in military vehicles and giving them the capability to follow one another in convoys without any driver, that sort of thing or being able to be remotely driven or even better act totally autominously. Would a machine spirit be able to do those sort of things, drive a squad of marines up to something on its own without a driver in the rhino or landraider or whatever?

If we can do that now, even in the design stage, just think what sort of technology they will have by the time of the DAoT comes around.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 17:46
The Machine Spirit is able to drive the vehicle by itself. There is a story in WD about a Crimson Fist Land Raider who loses it's crew to Orks. The Landraider takes off killing Orks until all it's ammo runs out and it's lascannons melt. It them parks itself up, opens the doors to let in the Orks and blows it's reactor core up. A Machine Spirit (at least in Titans and Land Raiders) is a very advanced AI.

According to one of the designers (Phil somebody) the Leman Russ tanks of the DAOT were unmanned, they were anti grav tanks, they had much better weapons etc etc. They simply got "fixed" by the Imperium because they don't like AI (except when it helps them) and because they are now easier to maintain.

Poseidal
13-08-2008, 17:50
Think Interex. A human society that was able to subdue the entire race of the Megarachnids (a more technilogically advanced version of them), strip them of all technology, and place them on a sanctuary "wildlife reserve" planet. The "dumbed down" version of the Megarachnids gave multiple Marine Legions trouble.

Has anyone read Mamoru Nagano's Five Star Stories?

In that, the current timeline characters are mostly engineered super soldiers but compared with the lost technology of the previous human empire (Called the Phallus Dei empire strangly...) they don't hold a candle to their super soldiers.

The only one who has made technology which can surpass that of the old empire was basically designed by a god (emperor). funnily enough - and the later part of the timeline was basically him having created this technology to fight off an otherworldly threat; think daemons.

chaos0xomega
13-08-2008, 17:53
I doubt they were as advanced as people claim.

If they were why did the eldar empire exist right up to the 29th millennium? The eldar covered the whole galaxy according to their codex with the maiden worlds around the edges of their empire (pg ~10 of the eldar codex I believe). The map in the 5th ed rulebook for the eldar shows the maiden worlds to run along the absolute edge of the galaxy (the galactic east and south edges).

So either the eldar empire was even MORE advanced than the DAOT humans, or humanity just wasn't as advanced as people assume. Humanity is described has fighting aliens throughout the DAOT (HH book timeline, first alien wars).

The eldar were the preeminent aliens in the galaxy, so humanity couldn't have spread across it without running into them.

Hellebore

Yes, because GW is so good at keeping it's own fluff consistent.

Also, remember that at the time of the Birth of Slaanesh, the Eldar Empire had been in decline for quite some time.

Also remember that the heart of the Eye of Terror is where the Empire was centered. It's entirely possible that in the neighborhood of Ultima Segmentum and Segmentum Solar (or whatever the one Terra is in is called) was sparsely settled by the Eldar because they had spread out in a different direction.


I doubt, given the nature of Eldar reproduction, that they ever had TRILLIONS of Eldar.

Actually, I'd have to give that one to Hellebore. Pre-Fall Eldar were kinky perverts...

Cavalier
13-08-2008, 18:04
I always pictured the DAOT humans to be like Star Trek, whereas the Eldar would be more like those weird super-advanced alien races they always encountered in that show.

The Enterprise pulls into orbit around Zeta Alpha XII. A mysterious figure dressed in robes appears on the bridge. He snaps his fingers and now the main characters find themselves in a rocky desert fighting against rabid polar bears or something. Meanwhile everyone on the ship has been frozen in time. Every once in a while the figure reappears to taunt them. Eventually James T Kirk has to uncover the secret of the strange figure's technology (as well as satisfying the creature's wife in ways Mr. Robe never could). Eventually it returns them to the ship and they fly away, marking "do not come back to this planet" on their star charts.

That would be how the DAOT humans would interact with the Eldar. The vast vast majority of Eldar lived on their homeworlds, right where we now find the Eye of Terror. Humans probably had that entire area of space marked off, and would only encounter Eldar when they stumbled across a random colony world.

PondaNagura
13-08-2008, 18:29
i always imagined the eldar had access to the far edges of the galaxy, but didn't hold power over them. plus they were probably more laid back as a society, eventually degenerating into the hedonism that was their downFall.
their empire stretched over and throughout the galaxy, but i doubt they really moved much beyond the space where the Eye of Terror was. plus in the age of expansion their were actually peaceful trade agreements with eldar and orks...according to older fluff.

human technology varied from world to world. there were probably techno-advanced societies with robots, grav-vehicles, stable cyber/gen modding, power fields, safe plasmaguns, and STCs to do all the hard thinking. but i imagine there to be nice quaint agri-worlds as well. there probably wasn't a galactic empire of humanity, more of a federation of planets, or broken into smaller kingdoms...like Battletech style.

icegreentea
13-08-2008, 19:05
Prefall Eldar Empire wasn't anything close to the scale of the Imperium today. We know that the bulk (or at least the heart) of the Empire is enclosed by the area of the Eye of Terror, and the majority of worlds outside that area were more sparsely populated. It's possible that even Pre-Fall Elar weren't THAT plentiful, and didn't require anything close to the space/planets that humans needed.

And it's possible DAoT Baneblades WERE better. They could have had better materials, or the Baneblade STC refers other specific weapon STCs that have since been lost. For example, the turret assembly could have two sets of plans. One for mounting STC.W.L.L.5F42A, and another for STC.W.L.L.6F1BC. One of them could be the giant cannon being used today, and the other could be some sort of rapid firing lascannon of glowing doom, lost somewhere in the catacombs of Mars.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 19:11
"My other car is a Rapid Firing Lascannon of Glowing Doom."

krag123
13-08-2008, 19:32
While a little off topic, you figure with the potential to gain so much knowledge, you figure the empire would send allot more troops or maybe even a whole chapter of SM's to Mars to help the Adeptus Mechanicus find all this lost tech.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 19:35
Mars has a LOT more fighting power than a single piddly little SM chapter can provide...

Kage2020
13-08-2008, 20:03
Seems to me that the Golden/Dark Age of Technology was sci-fi, where as the Imperium of Man is solidly fantasy (even if there are guns 'n' stuff). So, there's the answer. ;)

Seems that the 'fluff' covers the whole gamut of interpretation, from the suggestion that the Eldar were vastly more technologically advanced, to the idea that "STC titans" were better than anything that the Eldar (or at least the post-Fall Eldar) can produce. Guess it's a case of whatever you want being the rule... :D

For me, if the real world is TL 8, then the Golden/Dark Age of Technology was a solid TL 12 with dabbling into TL 13 technologies. (Antigravity, nanotechnology, etc.) The Eldar, on the other hand, were TL 14/15 (magic...). In the current 40k, the Imperium maxes out at early TL 11, and then only through the Adeptus Mechanicus, while the Eldar are back to TL 13...

As much as that means anything. ;)

Suffice to say that I personally believe that current Eldar technology is on average more advanced than the G/DAoT society, and that their own version of "archaeotech" is far, far more advanced.

That's just me, though.

Kage

PondaNagura
13-08-2008, 20:05
and there are a few 'no go' areas on mars for various reasons.

Kage, my heads fuzzy today, what's TL? technology level?

Kage2020
13-08-2008, 20:13
Nothing to worry about, PondaNagura. It's not from 40k, but rather based upon the old "tech level" (hence TL) scheme from GURPS, third edition (an RPG). I find it a useful construct when dealing with the 40k universe, since it helps you to model the various societies. It's not perfect, but it just happens to work...

Of course, it's another one of those "sci-fi" crutches so some argue that it doesn't work, which is fair enough. It's just how I see it working. ;)

Kage

Firaxin
13-08-2008, 20:34
I imagine the basic guardsmen to be something like a tau battlesuit with gauss weapons and powerfist level strength. :D

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 21:09
Then you realise they have to find the resources to build that stuff. Wars were fought by the Iron Men, who subsequently enslaved the populations. Go read Dune, it's where pretty much the entirety of 40ks foundations are from. Age of Strife? Check. Warp? Check. Navigators? Check. Enhanced super soldiers? Check. Technology horded by a small faction? Check. etc etc etc

Kage2020
13-08-2008, 21:16
Also that sounds very similar to the Eldar empire presented by Vect... :eyebrows:

Kage

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 21:21
Vect the Dark Eldar Archon?

Kage2020
13-08-2008, 21:32
Aye, that would be the one. That whole "Torturer's Tale" thing. :D

Kage

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 21:38
Where is that? I just had a flick through my codex (alas I only have the first printing of the Codex, the one with the Wych Weapons listed seperately, so maybe it's not in there) and didn't see it. Where about is the story you are talking about?

Norminator
13-08-2008, 21:40
Where is that? I just had a flick through my codex (alas I only have the first printing of the Codex, the one with the Wych Weapons listed seperately, so maybe it's not in there) and didn't see it. Where about is the story you are talking about?

Here you go

http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/torturer/

Havock
13-08-2008, 22:29
on the starter: Very.

It seems our 'descendants' have found a way to move the entire solar system quite some lightyears :)

Slaaneshi Slave
13-08-2008, 22:40
Here you go

http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/torturer/

Thanks, reading it now.

heretics bane
13-08-2008, 23:20
How old is Vect then? he must be at least 10's of thousands of years old judging by that story.

chaos0xomega
14-08-2008, 00:20
I would like to mention that there were rules for Admech Explorator fleets for the old Inqusitor game... they included tactical nuclear pistols. Thats DAoT tech...

Firaxin
14-08-2008, 00:50
I would like to mention that there were rules for Admech Explorator fleets for the old Inqusitor game... they included tactical nuclear pistols. Thats DAoT tech...

And 2+ invul save powerfields. And displacer fields, which teleported you away if something dangerous was about to contact you.

Think about that. It wasn't velocity based, because people could reach their hand through and touch you. But if that hand has claws? Poof, you've teleported (ref: Ciaphas Cain). So this device the size of a piece of jewelery could detect whether something approaching was a threat or not and then react fast enough to make a difference. That's pretty impressive, to me at least.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
14-08-2008, 02:07
Even more so, because it doesn't teleport you into a solid object or anything quite so unpleasant. Still, it does have it's drawbacks. Preservation of speed and velocity, to name just one..."Further down the hall, there came the sound of very expensive and antique chinaware shattering, and a bout of singularly unladylike language..."

Nazguire
14-08-2008, 06:51
How old is Vect then? he must be at least 10's of thousands of years old judging by that story.

He is 10,000 years old give or take. He was a small lad at the time of the Fall.

olmsted
14-08-2008, 07:18
Then you realise they have to find the resources to build that stuff. Wars were fought by the Iron Men, who subsequently enslaved the populations. Go read Dune, it's where pretty much the entirety of 40ks foundations are from. Age of Strife? Check. Warp? Check. Navigators? Check. Enhanced super soldiers? Check. Technology horded by a small faction? Check. etc etc etc

thats almost most scifi settings.

PondaNagura
14-08-2008, 16:10
offtopic: yeah the warp thing didn't just come from just Dune. Gw borrows a lot of stuff from everywhere, for instance daemons you say:
http://scifipedia.scifi.com/index.php/The_Game_of_Rat_and_Dragon

ChaosBeast
14-08-2008, 16:25
i would imagine DAoT humans would have had legions of GM soldiers like in Legion, and grav tanks were the norm. i wouldnt have said as advanced as eldar, more like the tau in my opinion.

Helsing
14-08-2008, 16:36
Dark Age of Technology Man was advanced due to the fact that the STC output systems were able to adapt their own technology to suit Man's needs, from the RH1NO ATV to the Leman Russ' adaptable fuel system. Thus, it can be surmised that the world that resisted the Macharian campaign was able to adapt not only to Imperial tech, but to Imperial tactics as well. Though for how long it cannot be said.


Helsing.

Helsing
14-08-2008, 16:41
In the the time before the Dark Age of Technology, Man was able to adapt technology for any situation, be it tactical, medicae or domestic, to suit his needs. These STC Output Systems were thought lost in the Dark Age, but a sole few worlds retained this technology and survived Old Night. The forces of Adrantis V were able to resist Macharius and his vision because they were able to adapt not only to his technology, but to his tactics as well. The question is however, for how long?

Helsing

heretics bane
14-08-2008, 21:29
Try not to double post mate. you can edit your post.

As for DAoT tech, basicly humanity was at its pinnicle of techonolgy.

Nazguire
14-08-2008, 22:58
Try not to double post mate. you can edit your post.

As for DAoT tech basicly humanity was at its pinnicle of techonolgy basicly.


Yes you can edit your post. You need to edit yours.:confused::angel:

El_Machinae
14-08-2008, 23:33
After reading some Xeelee and Culture novels, I realise that the DAOT humans weren't nearly as advanced as they could have been. Durned warp.

heretics bane
15-08-2008, 12:40
Yes you can edit your post. You need to edit yours.:confused::angel:

One to many basiclys there:p

Messiah
16-08-2008, 22:26
Now -> Event Horrizon -> Star Trek (Golden Age of Technology) -> Dune (Age of Strife) -> 40k

Id say thats pretty much spot on, and Eldar during DAOT were probably akin to Vorlons in B5 as to Tech level (Maybe not organic ships, but who knows?).

Slaaneshi Slave
16-08-2008, 22:33
They have better than organic ships. They grow them out of wraithbone, which doesn't need to eat as it draws its energy directly from the warp.

StarshipBOb
16-08-2008, 22:37
The closest analouge I could find that I think would be on par with humans from the DaoT would be those from the Systems Commonwealth in the Tv Series Andromeda. Suffice to say they had the following:

- A subspecies of genetically altered supermen;
- Liberal use of genetic manipulation (enhanced reflexes, ability to live on heavy g worlds with no effects);
- Ship controlling AIs;
- Handheld plasma weapons that included tiny robots which nullified incoming missles/bullets and assisted in aiming;
- Bombs that could blow up a star and by extension a solar system;
- Gauss/Coil guns that fired smart bullets.

That said, it's all up to speculation.

Messiah
17-08-2008, 14:12
They have better than organic ships. They grow them out of wraithbone, which doesn't need to eat as it draws its energy directly from the warp.

Thats true, I cant help but keep agreeing with you Slaaneshi.

So comparing tech levels In my opinion this would be the analogue:

DAOT Humans = Star Trek 2300s Federation
DAOT Eldar = Babylon 5 Vorlons

Im pretty sure that that is quite parallell to Kages TLs as well. Within xenobiology, there is something similar to TLs, Ill try to find it..

Waaagh Grignak
17-08-2008, 19:16
I would think that:

Old Ones = "Ancients/Lanteans"
DAoT Eldar = Vorlons
DAoT Humans = Asgard
DAoT Orks = Gho'ald

The older orks were ruled by the blood axes before the "big party", so they would likely have traded human tech to enhance their own.

Messiah
17-08-2008, 20:56
I dont think youre far off, Asgard and Star Trek technology arent that different, both use "phasers", transporters etc.
Yeah, Id agree with that.

zeep
18-08-2008, 00:06
While DAoT humans were undoubtedly more advanced, the ability to hold of a crusade does not require the defender to be extremely more advanced, simply more advanced in a way that the crusades doctrine doesn't allow it to compensate for. If the defender had anti-teleporter fields and accurate LOS energy ground defenses that out ranged the orbital bombardment systems on the attacker, a two year siege is not unreasonable. After losing every drop-pod in the first wave and most of your thunder-hawks, you might just want to pull back a bit. ;)

Also while I note that there was power armor on the aliens in the first heresy books, I cant help but think that a reliable plasma weapon would obsolete pa almost overnight. Why build and wear expensive armor that doesn't help.

At that note, 40k physics are not our physics, so who can say just how advanced they became?

Slaaneshi Slave
18-08-2008, 00:18
Even with our Physics who is to say how advanced they could become? We know nothing of the horrizons of possibility. We know only that which we have observed naturally, we don't actually know what happens when you try and push the boundries.