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Glabro
13-08-2008, 01:02
Regarding corruption, it is my understanding that Chaos can only work with what it's given, and that ultimately, worship of either Chaos as a whole or and individual power is required for corruption - Chaos cannot take one that does not pledge himself to it.

The chaos gods can, though, subvert a flawed individual, as was demonstrated in the case of Horus, but that doesn't mean they can do that to a pure individual, like Sanguinus or Alpharius.

Therefore, I see no problem with Alpha Legion playing the part of Chaos Marines, spiky armour and all, and remaining pure in their faith to the Emperor.

Thoughts?

DapperAnarchist
13-08-2008, 01:12
Pure people can be offered up as a sacrifice, and they become forfeit to the Powers... And however pure Alpharius may have been, the Legion most likely were not as pure. They may have held out for 1000 years, 5000, some may even be resisting the pull now, but they will someday fall. Thats the price for getting to close to Chaos.

Glabro
13-08-2008, 01:34
Interesting. Would you care to elaborate more on this "pull"?
Ruling out personal interest from the Chaos Gods (I'm pretty sure they only bother with people that matter, as it's an investment of time and power to do it), what other circumstances would warrant starting worshipping Chaos?

I don't see the difference between Alpha Legion or, say, the Imperial Fists in this case. Remember, Chaos is not defined by fighting the Imperium, it's defined by offering yourself, body and soul, to Chaos.

Vaz84
13-08-2008, 01:41
I think chaos gives power, and power only corrupts when vision is lost, the vision for the people / common wealth of those your fighting for. The Loyalist space marines have untold power, but they remain true to their vision (the emperor's vision) and fight giving into what is ultimately pride and becoming self-absorbed.

Now, the chaos legions, it can be seen in much of the fluff they become self-absorbed and loose true sight of their mission. However, I believe its possible there are "good" chaos legions, fighting for humanity to find balance.

Think of the Emperor, being extreme good, and the chaos legions being extreme bad. Its possible to be the balance factor, in between both. I think this is the line the Alpha legion were attempting (are attempting) to walk upon.

There are those who do what is right to do, what is wrong to do, then those who do what MUST be done. The Alpha legion saw what MUST be done, obviously 10,000 years later, we have not seen the fruit of their seeds. However, this could be almost directly blamed upon the lack of fluff for warhammer 41k. The HH novel series is doing great things for warhammer 30k, however existing fluff is not written in expanse. It's brief snip its about this and that. Should a novel series of length be given to the goings in the current times, I think a lot more could be explained.

Glabro
13-08-2008, 01:57
Well said, Vaz, except remember, the AL is always after its own agenda, not that of a bunch of Xenos - but that is better discussed in the other threads for it.

What's important is the survival of mankind, not the destruction of Chaos and the salvation of other races, after all!

Vaz84
13-08-2008, 02:22
The AL orginally had the Emperor's Agenda, a Golden age for mankind, and it can be said the legion knows the uses of mankind (having regular human agents, branded with the hydra as shown in the books). So it could be assumed the AL has their own "vision" for human society, the chaos gods, their posing as loyalist marines, are all tools.

Alpha legion could almost be seen as true grey matter. Willing to do whatever it takes to further their cause. Not blocked by moral decisions, just what is right and what must be done. Hence their actions at the end of the novel.

If the AL's vision truly still is for a golden age of mankind, there are untold ways for how they are doing this, and untold justification's for how evil, good, misleading they may be. Who knows, maybe they take slaves or chosen from wars and usher them to a hidden solar system to live in a Utopian society where balance between good and evil can be found?

gitburna
14-08-2008, 16:01
The chaos gods can, though, subvert a flawed individual, as was demonstrated in the case of Horus, but that doesn't mean they can do that to a pure individual, like Sanguinus or Alpharius.

Therefore, I see no problem with Alpha Legion playing the part of Chaos Marines, spiky armour and all, and remaining pure in their faith to the Emperor.

Thoughts?

I see a few ways of looking at the whole can of worms opened up in Legion.

1st is that Alpharius/Omegon join Chaos as loyalists, but end up corrupted and no longer be true to their original cause-they're essentially true chaos marines
2nd is that while they join for the right reasons - the ultimate destruction of chaos, they are not "just loyalists acting evil" :- they have thrown themselves into it fully

3rdly, it could be that most of the legion doesnt know theyre double-agents so to speak...best way to complete the mission is to deceive the entire legion into thinking that they ARE traitors- and only the very top leadership know to the contrary

Helsing
14-08-2008, 16:49
The nature of Chaos is varied. It can be thought that Chaos is a part of sentient psyche, a part of our fears, our ambition, or dreams and our doubts. Horus was an example, for it was through pride and fear that he fell. Others such as Magnus fell through ambition, and some such as Perturabo were corrupted through isolation. Its is the human flaws that can create Chaos, just as it's our unique gifts of compassion, love and forgiveness that hold it at bay.

Trumane
14-08-2008, 17:30
I believe its possible there are "good" chaos legions, fighting for humanity to find balance.

Think of the Emperor, being extreme good, and the chaos legions being extreme bad. Its possible to be the balance factor, in between both. I think this is the line the Alpha legion were attempting (are attempting) to walk upon.

There are those who do what is right to do, what is wrong to do, then those who do what MUST be done.



Sort of a chaotic good to use a D&D reference huh? I wondered if possibly 1, Alpharius, fell to chaos and 1, Omegon, stayed loyal. Yet both still Alpha Legion. Same soul, two different bodies, two different agendas, one legion.

Glabro
15-08-2008, 01:37
The nature of Chaos is varied. It can be thought that Chaos is a part of sentient psyche, a part of our fears, our ambition, or dreams and our doubts. Horus was an example, for it was through pride and fear that he fell. Others such as Magnus fell through ambition, and some such as Perturabo were corrupted through isolation. Its is the human flaws that can create Chaos, just as it's our unique gifts of compassion, love and forgiveness that hold it at bay.

Ah. So your theory is that because Chaos is born out of all the negative emotions experienced by humans, one falls to Chaos through being taken over by certain emotions. Where does the "Okay, I'm a prideful SOB, then - that means I need to go blast the Emperor!" bit come from, then?

Basically, how would the person's core motivations and loyalties change, if he does not actively and knowingly worship Chaos?

Is it simply a clash of opposite philosophies like in Star Wars?

Lord of ???
15-08-2008, 02:03
Chaos is subtle.

Chaos will quite happily use those already worshipping them and sacrifice them all if it feels it will achieve a greater individual or force coming closer to joining them.


A good example could be they get a cult. Give the Magus a vision showing that they should steal PDF uniforms and attack the nearby SM. The SM will retaliate and annihilate a worlds PDF which are all innocent. Chaos may then reveal that PDF were innocent and attempt to make the SM outcasts.

slaanghoul
15-08-2008, 04:08
I see a few ways of looking at the whole can of worms opened up in Legion.

1st is that Alpharius/Omegon join Chaos as loyalists, but end up corrupted and no longer be true to their original cause-they're essentially true chaos marines
2nd is that while they join for the right reasons - the ultimate destruction of chaos, they are not "just loyalists acting evil" :- they have thrown themselves into it fully

3rdly, it could be that most of the legion doesnt know theyre double-agents so to speak...best way to complete the mission is to deceive the entire legion into thinking that they ARE traitors- and only the very top leadership know to the contrary

IMHO, I think AL is 3. It would be impossible for the whole legion to play double agent for over 10,000 years. All of their new recruit are all chaos players .. . no doubt. Infact .. . . I'm willing to say that all their top leaders and their primarch are chaos now. So I guess 3 (5%) and 2 (95%) of the whole Legion.

Ddraiglais
15-08-2008, 08:27
Chaos will corrupt in whatever way it can. You can go to Chaos willingly or be turned slowly. Any flirtation with Chaos will lead to your corruption. That is why the Emperor sent Russ and his boys to destroy the homeworld of a loyal legion (that and he couldn't bring himself to believe that his best friend and favorite son was rebelling). Speaking of which...

Horus did not just wake up one day and say "oh, I think I'll support Chaos from now on". IIRC, he (and the rest of the SM at the time) didn't even believe in Chaos. Horus was turned ever so slowly and subtlely. The rest of the traitors were too (except for the WB and WE). Most of Horus' forces thought they were saving the Imperium during the HH.

What I'm saying is that the AL might have thought they were saving the Imperium. They might even think that's what they're doing now, but they are serving the Chaos gods.

Oh, and one more thing of note. The AL never had faith in the Emperor. None of the original marines did. The Emperor preached against any kind of religeon. All there was before the outbreak of the HH was the Imperial Truth. There was a small cult that worshipped the Emperor, but Astartes weren't a part of it.

Narf
15-08-2008, 11:18
Ah but Ddraiglais the Emperor didnt send Russ to destroy Prospero, he sent him to bring Magnus back to account for himself, Horus relayed a different order to russ, to destroy the Thousand Sons, knowing of the emnity between russ and magnus.

This forced the then loyal Thousand Sons to flee and seek refuge in the EOT, as far as i can remember (feel free to correct me) the Thousand Sons didnt fight in the HH, they turned to Chaos afterwards when the other legions joined them in the EOT.

The Thousand Sons were forced into being a traitor legion by Horus's planning, and the emperors disbelief in them, after all Magnus tried to send his warning to the Emperor, which triggered Russ being sent to bring him to Terra.

As for the Imperial cult, or Imperial Truth, thats why alot is always made in the fluff that the SM's view the emperor as the ultimate warrior, but not a god, he stands above there Primarch as that. This is why the inquisition gets a bit worried from time to time about the SM's belief.

NARF

Chaos Undecided
15-08-2008, 12:41
The Alpha Legion chose of their own free will to side with Horus in the Heresy as they'd been shown that the alternative to Chaos winning (which would lead to it burning itself out at the cost of humanity but preserving the galaxy) was a slow drawn out death and decay of their beloved Emperor and a mockery of all he held dear whilst Chaos would just grow in power and destroy everything.

They failed in this mission and the Imperium that exists today is exactly what they hoped to avoid. The core of the legion may still be aware of their original purpose but they're stuck with Chaos now and whatever their motivations now its the only way for them to bring down the Imperium even if it is now probably too late.

The Chaos Gods probably found the duality and failure of the Alpha Legions allegiance and motives highly amusing.

The index astartes entry for them lists their chosen warcry as often "For the Emperor" supposedly to confuse their opponents but the story of Legion offers an interesting double meaning. Everything they did was for the Emperor, they despise the Imperium that now exists.

ChaosTicket
15-08-2008, 13:52
The Alpha Legion are not as Corrupted as the Other Traitor Legions because they don't live in the Maelstrom or Eye of Terror, the Strongholds of Chaos.

If anything the likely cause all their Mutations and the "Possessed" are willing Alpha Legions using them as weapons.

The Alpha Legion are the most destructive of the Legions as they can attack anywhere, at any time and crumble infastructures, such as shutting down factories just before the 3rd Armageddon War, or Causing "Accidents" to happen all across the Imperium.

The Thousand Sons DID fight at the Imperial Palace. It was the Iron Warriors Siege Engines and the Thousand Sons sorceries that broke the walls allowing the World Eaters to charge through.

Don't take the Horus Heresy novels to heart, as they are contradicting pretty much everything already stated to be cannon.

Chimpeh
15-08-2008, 13:54
I haven't read Legion, but from what I gather the Alpha Legion opted to side with Horus and the other traitors in order to prevent an eventual Chaos victory. As far as I'm concerned this doesn't necessarily mean that AL members started serving the Chaos Gods. Instead, I see the AL as using the traitor legions as a tool to bring about their desired future. In siding with Horus however the AL have been branded as traitors too; hence the spikes.

As I said I haven't read Legion, so perhaps someone can correct me!

fantomex
15-08-2008, 14:32
Hmm, methinks that the more recent padding-out of the Alpha Legion fluff has given rise to many different theories and strands it could all go down, though there are obviously a few more likely than others..


Alpharius and Omegon go their separate ways, each with about half of the legion. After all, it isn't the largest legion by far, and they don't always rely on all-out martial warfare, which could explain the lack of sightings..
One side goes over to Chaos, a risky endeavour which could end with corruption, or a possibility for insder info..
One side stays loyal, working to try and destroy Chaos once and for all.
Just throwing in a wonderful link to get your keys thumping, imagine them finding a way to destroy Chaos' hold in the material universe, say by siding with an inquisitor who will also utilise Chaos, maybe by the name of Quixos?

Of course, this is all wild speculation, but there are plenty of things which could reflect either total dominion through ignorance of their fate, or a still-beating loyalty in the heart of every Alpha Legion marine!
Battle Cry: "Hydra Dominatus!" or "For the Emperor!" (long believed to be used as mockery; may actually be an indicator of true loyalty)

ChaosTicket
15-08-2008, 14:39
It is Speculation, as Dark Angels are a Loyalist Legion, Information about them is much more forthcoming than a Traitor Legion, but even they still search for their Fallen Great Company they was scattered across time and space because of the Chaos Gods.

If the Alpha Legion were split it could be differences of opinion, different options for the legion, or maybe trying to destroy their "traitor" members like the Dark Angels.

I personally didn't like that their was a 21rst Primarch and that right there is a perfect example of why Novels are unreliable.

slaanghoul
15-08-2008, 18:18
Chaos will corrupt in whatever way it can. You can go to Chaos willingly or be turned slowly. Any flirtation with Chaos will lead to your corruption. That is why the Emperor sent Russ and his boys to destroy the homeworld of a loyal legion (that and he couldn't bring himself to believe that his best friend and favorite son was rebelling). Speaking of which...

Horus did not just wake up one day and say "oh, I think I'll support Chaos from now on". IIRC, he (and the rest of the SM at the time) didn't even believe in Chaos. Horus was turned ever so slowly and subtlely. The rest of the traitors were too (except for the WB and WE). Most of Horus' forces thought they were saving the Imperium during the HH.

What I'm saying is that the AL might have thought they were saving the Imperium. They might even think that's what they're doing now, but they are serving the Chaos gods.

Oh, and one more thing of note. The AL never had faith in the Emperor. None of the original marines did. The Emperor preached against any kind of religeon. All there was before the outbreak of the HH was the Imperial Truth. There was a small cult that worshipped the Emperor, but Astartes weren't a part of it.

I think any marines can have 'faith" in the Emperor. Faith doesn't have to be about religion. Example, I have faith in president Bush to do the right thing. I know Bush is not a deity, but I can still have faith in him.

slaanghoul
15-08-2008, 18:29
As far as I know, the end of legion took place about 10,000 years ago. I mean, 10000 years is a big gap. AL could have turned to chaos in all its glory sometime between then and now. All we really know is AL start out as loyalist. Then turned to Chaos (only in name, their true purpose is to the emperor). Now, they are still part of Chaos, but we don't know if they are still loyal to Emperor or they've totally chaos now.

Eetion
15-08-2008, 18:52
Id also like to pont out that even as Traitors, the AL battle cry was "For the Emperor" to infuriate and confuse the enemy... OIt could be said that Alpharius was tricking the Cabal, so that he could manipukate events.... and them, by throwing his lot in with Chaos from the outset.

Or it could have put a whole new spin on the Alpha Legion battlecry... How the mind boggles.

Glabro
18-08-2008, 14:21
They failed in this mission and the Imperium that exists today is exactly what they hoped to avoid. The core of the legion may still be aware of their original purpose but they're stuck with Chaos now and whatever their motivations now its the only way for them to bring down the Imperium even if it is now probably too late.

The Chaos Gods probably found the duality and failure of the Alpha Legions allegiance and motives highly amusing.

The index astartes entry for them lists their chosen warcry as often "For the Emperor" supposedly to confuse their opponents but the story of Legion offers an interesting double meaning. Everything they did was for the Emperor, they despise the Imperium that now exists.

An interesting point of view, and certainly a valid one, but a couple of things bother me with this theory:

1. How is wiping out humanity helping humanity survive Chaos? The AL certainly do not care about the Xenos nor is their prime mission to destroy Chaos, but to protect mankind and manage their flaws.

2. The AL didn't "fail" in their part in the Heresy. They very deliberately manipulated events at Istvaan and with the White Scars and Space Wolves to enable them to reach Terra. In the Cabal's vision of the future, the recruitment of the AL to their cause would secure the end they desired for the Heresy, the victory of Horus. If the AL did in fact subscribe with the Cabal, then wouldn't their "failure" render the whole portent moot?

I know someone who finds all these threads about Alpha Legion highly amusing.
That would be Dan Abnett.

Chaos Undecided
18-08-2008, 15:19
1) The Alpha legion were apparently well aware of Chaos and the Emperors aim to bring abouts its destruction (unlike the seeming ignorance of other legions in previous books) The two paths of the future shown by the Cabal both led to the destruction of mankind but the Horus wins scenario also led to the downfall of Chaos. As Alpharius says "this is hardly a choice at all"

2) The story of Legion isnt really compatible with any previous versions of the Heresy storyline, the Alpha Legion were meant to try and ensure the Horus Heresy succeeded to prevent things becoming pretty much as they are in the "present day" Imperium.