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WrYpoRrY
13-08-2008, 04:01
Hello WarSeers

I'd like to discuss Khorne's attitude towards magic. a lot of Fluff says he despises all who use it and hates Tzeentch because of his magic and deception. But Khorne, Like Tzeentch, bestows mutations to his champions to make them tougher or stronger. This could be because he despises weakness so he makes his followers strong, but isn't this what he stands against?

I would have thought he would be proud of his followers' purity and natural strength but apparently this is not the case.

Any insight?

Privaron
13-08-2008, 04:23
Since when is a mutation magic? That's like saying cancer is magic...
Also, you have to remember that Khorne really only cares about blood, so if the mutation can get him some, he'll grant it.

Khaine's Messenger
13-08-2008, 04:59
Khornate "magic" is a touchy issue. The thing is, a lot of the insane, reality-altering things that the followers of Khorne can do could be classified as "magic" even if only because it involves the power of the warp. Not least of which is the act of summoning daemons. For example, the "words of blood" or the ability of one of his greater daemons to literally rip the blood from everyone within a certain distance in a maelstrom of gore (or in WHFB, turn into a fine mist of blood and phase through an ensorceled wall). It's not formalized "magic" as such, it's just something that can be done. Usually by daemons, because they Screw Up Reality and can have some sweeping metaphorical powers.

It should be emphasized, though, that such powers aren't exactly traditional or all that common in the literature (besides summoning daemons o'course). More often you have stuff like you say...something that makes someone stronger, more resilient, more bloodthirsty. However, those aren't traditionally thought of as "magic" per se, but seen more loosely as a "blessing." Altering reality in his followers' favor, sure. And if that qualifies as magic, so be it. But I don't think he sees it that way, with all his ranting about mages and similar.

Drasanil
13-08-2008, 05:18
Khorne's distaste for magic stems from how it is used most of the time, how ever he is not entirely opposed to the use of it so long as it follows it's creed. The new DoC army book even makes a point of it (not sure if it's the same in the 40k codex though), magic is bad if used in a cowardly fashion, but magic used to make weapons and armor to aid in the slaughter is ok:

A)Wizzy McScholar throwing around fireballs and incinerating his enemies from a far makes for a sad panda... uhm I mean an angry angry Khorne.

B)Stressy Sorcerer using his magic to forge a "dead killy" sword, and going a bloody rampage is a jolly good lad in Khorne's book.

A bit of a simple example, but that's largely how it's seems to have worked most of the time.

ADF
13-08-2008, 08:58
Back in the day, Khorne had a little ...deeper... personality than our beloved KILL MAIM BURN; back then he had technology instead of magic. For example, his (mind, fantasy) champions were sometimes bestowed with chainaxes and meltas, and he had many daemonic warmachines both in 40k and Fantasy. Remnants of this attitudes are, for example, the juggernauth and the famous axe of Khorne. This description is similar to Tolkiens orks from the Hobbit: brutal and base, but cunning with the invention of warmachines and engines that make people suffer. Khorne is all about open conflict and honour, but anything that serves as a mean to triumph in this kind of combat is fair game, as long as it is used openly and not cowardly.

MvS
13-08-2008, 09:45
A distinction can be made between 'magic' and 'sorcery' or 'spellcraft' here.

If you take 'magic' to mean the very stuff of the Warp - that energy that gets whipped up by emotions and souls, that all the Gods are made up from and that also causes mutations and spooky affects in Realspace - then Khorne doesn't despise it because he IS magic.

Sorcery, however, could be taken to mean the art of weaving the energy of magic into a spell that can be cast over a distance to defeat enemies or to specifically prevent actual face-to-face combat. This evasion of face-to-face fighting and the shedding of blood is what Khorne despises.

A sorceror can stand atop a hill and work all sorts of powerful mojo across a battlefield without ever having to get his hands dirty, and likewise that same sorceror can use spells to enhance his abilities in combat when he would otherwise be a complete wussy pushover (say).

Khorne gives his mutations and gifts to beings who are already really prone to anger, or who are already dedicated warriors, or who are already blood-mad psychos. So he isn't making a warrior out of a total softy, he's making a more dangerous killing machine out of an already existing belligerent.

That's how I would regard the distinction in Khorne's eyes.

Remember: all gods are 'magic', so Khorne doesn't hate the stuff-that-is-magic per se.

Iracundus
13-08-2008, 12:32
That rationale however starts to fall apart when one looks at 40K where Khorne's daemon engines can inflict damage over relatively considerable distances. The old Cannons of Khorne for example were long range and powerful, if unreliable, daemonic artillery. Other creations like the Tower of Skulls or even the Brass Scorpion allow for the dealing of death and mayhem at a distance. All of these could be seen as an evasion of "face to face fighting"

MvS
13-08-2008, 12:49
Indeed.

The logic does get a little thin here and there.

I suppose we could say that the beginning and end point of Khorne's hatred for sorcery comes from the fact that he isn't Tzeentch. So he opposes it simply because he opposes his brother deity. Everything else is just him adding to his own rationale.

ADF
13-08-2008, 12:56
Yes; but considering that Khorne incorporates the thirst for destruction, his artillery makes sense: all his machines are very exagerated (quad mortar, giant cannon, giant bloodthrower, tower of skulls, lord of battle), so one could conclude that they are more of a madmans dream of a weapon, suited for bloodshed on a much larger scale. I'd assume that weapons of mass destruction and the like are very much in Khornes part of the emotional spectre, just as genocide and blind rage. Everything that causes direct, uncaring mayhem and destruction is Khorne, no matter how big or sophisticated it is. After all, even his daemons use swords and axes, not only claws: He is the good of war and warfare, not only of mindless slaughter. His primitive aspects are incorporated by the flesh hounds that are little more then beast, while his engines incorporate the other end of the scale: Massive, sophisticated wonders of technology, built with the sole purpose of killing people.

MrBigMr
13-08-2008, 14:21
The daemon army book (I think the 40K one says pretty much the same) tells us that Khorne is not anti-magic, he's anti scheming. He likes magical armour, swords, enhancing warriors. Even the rivents on a Juggernaut carry magic symbols. Using magic to spill blood = good. Using magic for anything else = bad. Khorne does not accept the use of magic to pound the enemy or plan around them. There lies the difference.

Iracundus
13-08-2008, 14:29
The difference between having a giant cauldron spraying molten hot or daemonic bloodgiant cannon fire big balls of warp fire vs. channeling the warp into a big beam to vaporize one's enemies (like Tzeentch daemons or Tzeentch's daemonic engines) seems more a matter of semantics. Both ultimately involve the use of the warp to create unnatural effects in order to inflict direct damage on the enemy at a distance.

icegreentea
13-08-2008, 18:27
He's a GOD. I don't think he really worries about other people disputing the internal consistency and logic of his beliefs.

MvS
13-08-2008, 20:37
MrBigMr: A very helpful post sir!

Icegreentea: Not really. :)

Khorne is a work of fiction described by a gamut of different writers all with their own slightly different perceptions of him, putting forward slightly different empases. The internal consistency of his imagery is a relevant discussion for a fan-forum dedicated to 40K background imagery...

WrYpoRrY
14-08-2008, 05:32
Thanks guys!
so Khorne will use all his reality-messing up powers so long as what he's doing doesn't seem wussy. In WHFB he mutated a champion's bones into blades. Tzeentch does that but this was distinctly Khorne(y?)

So I guess he doesn't care so long as it gets Blood For The Blood God in a violent enough way, hence the skull tower etc.

Brother Siccarius
14-08-2008, 05:49
Hello WarSeers

I'd like to discuss Khorne's attitude towards magic. a lot of Fluff says he despises all who use it and hates Tzeentch because of his magic and deception. But Khorne, Like Tzeentch, bestows mutations to his champions to make them tougher or stronger. This could be because he despises weakness so he makes his followers strong, but isn't this what he stands against?

I would have thought he would be proud of his followers' purity and natural strength but apparently this is not the case.

Any insight?

Mutations and magic are quite different distinctions in 40k (and fantasy as well, as it stands). On Khorne's position on mutations, he despises Tzeentch's free giving of mutations, just about anyone worshiping zeeny will get some strange mutation, even if it's just psyker powers. Khorne on the other hand gives mutations to those who prove themselves strong. He does not, as you say, give mutations to the weak to make them strong, he gives to the strong to make them stronger*.

Magic is another matter entirely, in 40k it simply means psyker powers. Yes, I'm aware that the powers of psykers have the same base in the warp as mutations, but it's quite different concepts. The Psykers work from behind the scenes (whether that means behind people or just from behind reality) and usually at some range. However, Khorne is all about coming to grips with the enemy, and disdains ranged power whether it be psyker powers or just simply bows and arrows.

* now, as to what constitutes "strength" is another matter entirely.

pinegulf
14-08-2008, 06:13
Sportmanship anyone?

That's what it's all about imho. Blasting your enemies with bolts of warp afar is hardly fair figth. Now a little mutation there and here makes combat just more gory and fun. :) Wathing magic vs melee is as fun as watching bunnyhunt with assusault rifles. Now hunting with spears is intresting. ('fair' chanse for all)