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ChaosTicket
13-08-2008, 14:30
Is every army going to end up Gimmicky like Necrons and Tau?

I'm losing hope for the armies as they are all being shifted between Offensive and Defensive armies and then further seperated by a gimmick in the army, like Necrons Glacing and Tau units being small number of low quality units with great weapons.

Witch Hunters, Cheaper Space Marines with lower melee stats, almost no heavy weapons, and Ecclesiarchy Units for melee. (Only Anti tank are meltaguns and Exorcists)

Daemonhunters, overly expensive space marines with almost no anti tank or anti MEQ. (Really should just be Elite units options for Imperials like in the past)

Imperial Guard, like Space Marines, but operate on a 2-1 ratio, vehicles provide offense.(Two Infantry Squads for every Tactical Squad, with plenty of mobile Chimeras, Hellhounds, Sentinels, and even Leman Russ for offense)

Tyranids, Almost entirely a mobile melee army, but limited and/or low quality of ranged options.(You can only have 3 Biovores and 3 Zoanthropes, and those are your main Long range Anti Infantry and Anti-tank respetively as Carnifexes with Barbed Stranglers/Venom Cannons can't get past armor)

Necrons, mobile, but low number or Anti Tank Options(Gauss only glance and soon Glancing won't be anti tank at all).

Tau, Mobile units end up with low power, numbers are small, and units generally mono-tasked(only focus on one type of target, like Fire Warriors can't hurt vehicles, and then only come in small units)

Orks, mobile and melee, but generally low to medium range, shooting, and armor(Where have the Looted Vehicles and Gunwagonz with Battlecannons gone?)

Eldar, Mobile, but units mostly Mono-tasked, and not much armor or long range.(Aspect Warriors focus the whole unit on one enemy and generally can't do much else like Dark Reapers, and Non Aspect Things end up Odd like Warwalkers and the Most Expensive(and effective) transport that Wave Serpent)

Dark Eldar, more mobile than Eldar, but even lower range, armor, and quality of units. (Entire force gets mounted in Raiders but units are still only variations of basic dark Eldar warrior)

Chaos, Space marines that (used) to miss all the newer things that Space Marines get like Plasma Cannons, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Stormbolters, but got Daemons, skills, and Metal everywhere.

I don't mean this as a rant, but more like a follow up to all the Wishlist, and they fact that people sort of "Skip" obvious things like Long range for Tyranids, or more Anti Tank for Necrons than Heavy Destroyers or Monoliths.

ChaosBeast
13-08-2008, 14:37
what you call gimicky, the rest of the world calls Variation :rolleyes:

would you have all the armies the same and equally good at everything? each army has pros, each army has cons. thats kind of the point. its why you might spend as long, or even longer, picking your army as you do writing an army list. so in answer to your question, i suppose every army will be 'gimickey', but i dont see that as a bad thing.

Latro_
13-08-2008, 14:40
um, not sure what your point is?
All armies have a niche at things they are good and bad at, over a framework of rules and whatnot that govern all armies.

Oberon
13-08-2008, 14:43
There really are very few true "gimmicks" in 40k armies, and certainly not for every army. Faith, WBB, maybe synapse, absolutely daemons with their full-scale deep striking, and there you have it, maybe add one or two things.
You basically summed up almost every races pros and cons there.

Helicon_One
13-08-2008, 14:44
Guys guys this is terrible all the armies are different from each other!

ChrisMurray
13-08-2008, 14:48
Guys guys this is terrible all the armies are different from each other!

Wait a minute... you mean this isn't chess? :confused:

Lord Cook
13-08-2008, 14:51
I'm not sure I see your point. You're complaining that armies have different characters and abilities? :wtf:


Wait a minute... you mean this isn't chess?

Don't be silly. Chess is incredibly gimmicky. The White pieces always have the Queen on the left, while the Black have her on the right. And White always goes first. Duh. :)

==Me==
13-08-2008, 14:58
Is every army going to end up Gimmicky like Necrons and Tau?

I'm losing hope for the armies as they are all being shifted between Offensive and Defensive armies and then further seperated by a gimmick in the army, like Necrons Glacing and Tau units being small number of low quality units with great weapons.

Why should every army play the same? That would be boring, I'd prefer to have variation between armies to encourage different style of play.


Witch Hunters, Cheaper Space Marines with lower melee stats, almost no heavy weapons, and Ecclesiarchy Units for melee. (Only Anti tank are meltaguns and Exorcists)

SoB =/= Space Marines, they are well armored IG with a focus on close-range firepower but are fairly poor in assault. They have the whole faith points thing going for them as well. Add in interesting units like Penitent Engines, Repentia, Assassins, and Inquisitors and it's a very unique army. As for anti-tank, they have plenty of melta weapons and lots of ways to bring them in range, plus the Exorcist.


Daemonhunters, overly expensive space marines with almost no anti tank or anti MEQ. (Really should just be Elite units options for Imperials like in the past)

GKs are closer to Space Marines, but they are much more mobile and flexible with storm bolters standard and the nemesis weapons. They are light on ranged AT, but with everyone hitting rear armor they do well up close. Don't forget the fun stuff like Inquisitors, Assassins, allies, and the like.


Imperial Guard, like Space Marines, but operate on a 2-1 ratio, vehicles provide offense.(Two Infantry Squads for every Tactical Squad, with plenty of mobile Chimeras, Hellhounds, Sentinels, and even Leman Russ for offense)

2:1 ratio? Have you ever seen an IG army? IG is the ultimate gunline army, but has lots of options to change things up (Drop Troops, mechanized, Grenadiers, Jungle Fighters, Light Infantry, Conscripts, etc) and is not dependant on tanks (they are nice though and a lot more resilient now). They suffer in assault, but with so many units losing 1 squad isn't a big deal.


Tyranids, Almost entirely a mobile melee army, but limited and/or low quality of ranged options.(You can only have 3 Biovores and 3 Zoanthropes, and those are your main Long range Anti Infantry and Anti-tank respetively as Carnifexes with Barbed Stranglers/Venom Cannons can't get past armor)

Tyranids have awesome ranged capabilities, and what kind of melee army isn't mobile? Tyranid ranged attacks are purely to support the assault, either by softening up the enemy or keeping tanks from shooting so they can't hurt your units. Don't forget the whole Synapse and MC thing.


Necrons, mobile, but low number or Anti Tank Options(Gauss only glance and soon Glancing won't be anti tank at all).

Yes, let's ignore the core of Necron gameplay: WBB.


Tau, Mobile units end up with low power, numbers are small, and units generally mono-tasked(only focus on one type of target, like Fire Warriors can't hurt vehicles, and then only come in small units)

Is that a problem? Tau are all about mobile firepower and their units reflect that. Crisis suits are supremely flexible in their role thanks to tons of options.


Orks, mobile and melee, but generally low to medium range, shooting, and armor(Where have the Looted Vehicles and Gunwagonz with Battlecannons gone?)

Shokk Attack Gun, Boomwagons, Lootas, Killkannons? Orks have lots of good shooting at long range, and a lot more at shorter ranged (shootas spring to mind) tempered by low BS (which is why it either uses a template or has a ridiculous number of shots). Orks are really quite flexible nowadays, most builds will be successful with a solid core of Boyz.


Eldar, Mobile, but units mostly Mono-tasked, and not much armor or long range.(Aspect Warriors focus the whole unit on one enemy and generally can't do much else like Dark Reapers, and Non Aspect Things end up Odd like Warwalkers and the Most Expensive(and effective) transport that Wave Serpent)

Eldar use speed instead of armor, it's kinda their thing. The most resilient things they have are Wraith constructs and that damned Holofalcon. They have to use a mix of specialized (not mono-tasked) units to pick apart the enemy, using the right tool for the job each time.


Dark Eldar, more mobile than Eldar, but even lower range, armor, and quality of units. (Entire force gets mounted in Raiders but units are still only variations of basic dark Eldar warrior)

Even faster and even easier to kill, DE are the perfect glass hammer. They use their speed to pick the right targets and tear them apart. They also have some nice ranged weapons, namely the Dark Lance and Disintegrator.


Chaos, Space marines the (used) to miss all the newer things that Space Marines get like Plasma Cannons, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Stormbolters, but got Daemons, skills, and Metal everywhere.

Umm, they still do.

I really don't get what you're trying to say, care to elaborate?

alexon47
13-08-2008, 15:07
Imperial Guard, like Space Marines, but operate on a 2-1 ratio, vehicles provide offense.(Two Infantry Squads for every Tactical Squad, with plenty of mobile Chimeras, Hellhounds, Sentinels, and even Leman Russ for offense)


DEAR GOD MAN!!! saying a space marine is like a guardsman is like saying ogryns are worth taking 30 of, its a simple lie. have you ever seen a guard army? because 1 marine can easily kill 2 guardsmen. the strength of the guard is in its tanks, and saying that a leman russ us defensive makes me want to throw a pie plate at your head. sir before you go shooting off your mouth about doom, please make sure you know what the ******* game your playing, its warhammer 40k, not chess.

ChrisMurray
13-08-2008, 15:11
That sounds quite agressive alexon47.

Anyway ChaosTicket if you don't like these "gimmicks" how would you suggest that GW differntiate the races?

alexon47
13-08-2008, 15:15
ehh, i dont flame often, and it was in jest. sewriously though guard are a gunline unless you use doctrines to make em special. if there was a real gimmick i think it would be silly things like ultramarines nid vets, a unit which really didn't need to exist but was put in for the sake of putting it in, good idea poor execution

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-08-2008, 15:21
The design of each force is their to engender and encourage a variety of play styles.

HEll, even Marines, their no1 selling model range have lots of variants, to prevent stagnation and boredom...

If you want a game where everything is a vague repitition on a theme, Warmachine might be more up your street. Every army has big Roboty things, yet I feel that because each force still plays slightly differently, this might still be too much for yourself.

ChaosTicket
13-08-2008, 15:27
Ok, to be more clear, nearly any army can be mobile, by use of Assault weapons, melee units, jump infantry, vehicles, etc.

Nearly any army can be defensive with guns, long range, heavy weapons, armor, etc.

The thing is that some armies complety miss some things and they don't get any equivalent.

Tyranids for example have almost armor, and low quality of range. If you Think you could use Carnifexes, Biovores, or Zoanthropes, the last two come in only 3 per army, and the first option is only effective against "light" targets like Imperial Guard or Ork Truckks.

Necrons are like a moving wall with Destroyer variants act mobile firebases, but the general Necrons have no way to fight Vehicles or MEQs, as Necrons don't have Lascannons or Plasma guns, do they?

Some armies are just a one trick pony, like Dark Eldar are cheap and you can mount your entire force, or Tau with Battlesuits. But then you realise that there mare hidden faults, like Tau come in small numbers and that is their real Achilles' heel, not that lack of melee or the Dark Eldars' low quality of their troops.

Here's a wishlist:

Dark Eldar with Elite Infantry, like Scourges with Assault weapons beyond their splinter cannons.

Tau with better numbers(9pt/16-man squad Fire Warriors, 5-man Crisis suits, and 25pt/10-man Stealth Suits).

Eldar, some kind of transport that is cheaper than the Awesome Wave Serpent so I can actually Mount up my Aspect Warriors.

Tyranids without Limits on Zoanthropes and Biovores.

Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters with Anti Tank.

Necrons with Anti Tank Beyond Heavy Destroyers and Monoliths.

Orks with Looted Chimeras, Hellhounds, Leman Russ and the Like as "Heavy" vehicles to contrast to "Light" vehicles of Trucks, Wartracks, and Battlewagons.(I mean Chimeras as Transports, Hellhounds as Fast Attack, and Leman Russ as Heavy Support)

Changing playstyles is good, but when you have no anti tank, no Ordnance, no anti MEQ, you end up with some pretty easy counters to armies like Offensive armies are easily dealt with if you don't have cover, or cheap transports, or fast units.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-08-2008, 15:30
Tyranids don't need anti-Tank Firepower, Anti-MEQ firepower etc...

Each list has a weak spot, something it needs to get clever to deal with effectively. See a Landraider when you are using Nids? Introduce it to Mr Carnifex, see how clever it feels after a good stomping...

Oberon
13-08-2008, 15:33
Why on earth should every army be capable of doing everything to the same degree as everyone else?? DH/Wh with good antitank (WH btw has no problems with antitank, and DH gets help for that from allies and HS) for example. You would take away the only limit (besides high point cost) they have.
Tau already have good enough numbers, and their heel really is CC. I thought DE have elite infantry in qyches and incubi (retinue, but still)? Necrons have gauss, at least in fourth edition they very much had antitank weapons. Etc etc.

Each army has and needs a defining feature, and everything has a price. If your army happens to be good at something (tau, shooting), it better be bad in something else (tau, close combat). this is no chess, and not everyone is created equal in same areas of gameplay. Just the way it should be.

DeLerium
13-08-2008, 15:50
And White always goes first. Duh. :)

All of teh White haz ASF!?!?!? b0rKen I sai! b0rKen!!!!!eleventyone!!!

Back to the original topic, although having weaknesses and variation makes the game more interesting, flavourful and balanced; surely generals of the respective races would quickly realise these weaknesses and counteract them, especially in the case of the 'nids... How hard would it be for them to evolve some sort of giant Sniper-Bug with a high ballistic skill and specialised AP rounds? I mean, why would you evolve Biovores to chuck randomly floaty spore mines when a Carnifex could cyst them out closer to the foe, when what you really need is that walking weapons platform to have some tank stopping power at range?

Don't forget however that at the 40k scale some elements of the races are missed. It could be argued that 'Nids don't really need smaller monstrous creatures to be able to take out tanks, when larger organisms such as a Hierophant can open them like a can...

Hmm... I'm not sure that stream of consciousness will actually make much sense, so I'll leave with a summary of why I think the differences are a good thing:

Rock-Paper-Scissors is always more fun than Rock-Rock-Rock :P

advinius
13-08-2008, 15:56
I have to agree with the majority of posters here on this one. In order for each army to be truely distinct, rather than effectively just different model sets for the same rules, there has to be gaps in what an army can do, and also areas where they shine.

Look at computer games, in particular the RTS genere. the games that work best and have the most replay value are those where the different sides have real diferences. On the contrary, those games where the two sides are largely just the same units with different skins on them tend to get boring or predictable much more quickly.

Now, I am not saying at all that some of your unit ideas dont have merit, and if your local group likes them, then add them as house rules. But for me, I like having weak spots to work around, or exploit in my opponents.

The_Warsmith
13-08-2008, 16:01
Tau with better numbers(9pt/16-man squad Fire Warriors, 5-man Crisis suits, and 25pt/10-man Stealth Suits).



the tau have a tiny empire, a fraction of they size of the imperium, you can't expect them to rival the guard in terms of numbers on the battlefield. fluff wise their small numbers are justified

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-08-2008, 16:04
I suspect that where you are diverting from my line of thought, is that you are focussing far too much on what the army can't do, to the exclusion of considering what it can do....

Tau, for example, are absolutely fantastic for driving enemies off of objectives, and then keeping them out of enemy hands. Only a hard won assault can really drive the Firewarriors away, and if he has Kroot lurking nearby, expect pretty heavy casualties.

Tyranids, however, excel at very quickly taking out enemy scoring units. Chuck in some weenybugs to tie them up, whilst the Warriors, Raveners and other Heavies make their way over to kick the enemy into next week.

Necrons. Well, lets just say, try shifting them from their defensive position. Perhaps not great at seizing objectives, but through the sheer tenacity of their nature, they will do very well at contesting them.

Witch Hunters. Speaking as a Tau player, going over to Orkses, I never, EVER want to have to take the Nuns with Guns on. Flamers up the wazoo, acts of faith, cheap enough to be taken in decent numbers...Power Armour? Exactly how the flipping heck am I meant to hold on to my objectives? My tanks can only kill so many before they start lighting up my positions in holy flames.

In short? Sod my weaknesses...what is the enemies strength? What do I need to be conscious of when positioning my units?

Xenobane
13-08-2008, 17:15
Chaos Ticket, whatever game it is that you want to play is not one I'm interested in. The great differences between armies is one of the things that keeps the hobby interesting. I wouldn't want to play a game where every army was capable in every sphere.

ashc
13-08-2008, 17:29
so you wan't a game where every army can do everything.... where no army is any different to another? :eyebrows:

Ash

Vandur Last
13-08-2008, 17:45
oh man, the OP said that Imperial Guard are like Marines.

snicker, chuckle, lol, roflcopters

lanrak
13-08-2008, 17:45
Hi all.
I Like table top games with varied force/army play styles.

However I think having to resort to army specific special rules to highlight these differences , could indicate the rule set is not expancive enough to cope with the 40k universe.
And perhaps a re-write is needed?

Just a thought .
TTFN
Lanrak

Adra
13-08-2008, 17:53
The rules are expansive enough to accomodate special rules and that seems fine. Have to build on something.

I think the OP has observed things like faith points, which could be seen as a gimmick added on to make an army different, and just blanked judged all armies as having them. Variation isnt a gimmick in 40k, its vital.

505
13-08-2008, 17:56
However I think having to resort to army specific special rules to highlight these differences , could indicate the rule set is not expancive enough to cope with the 40k universe.
And perhaps a re-write is needed?


my problem with this (and its a issue that wll be here no matter what they do). is that the special rules soon creep into other codexes and other armies.
for example

Rending- it was introduced to help nids have some form of CC chance to hurt tanks. it soon became the death of everything.
fleet of *****- it was introduced to alllow (if I remember right) Nids the chance to get into combat. soon every army had it that it became a universal role
(fantasy) Always strike first- once was very rare now every army (since HE) has it to counter the High elves version of it.

I could go on the problem is a unit gets a special rule everyone says thats cool and it gets passed on to others...now new special rules are needed.

I really like the varied apsect of the armies. and NO IG DO NOT NEED TANKS TO BE OFFENSIVE....sorry for yelling but my all infantry is very offinsive. (though with the new tank rules....hmm

Necromancer2
13-08-2008, 18:10
So the OP's Gimicky = Different, Unique, flavorful????? Thats strange. I like different armies being different.

I think the OP is trying to say is the Game Mechanics are the same pretty much for every army. (IMO the should be for game reasons) They are either CC monsters, shooty, offence or defence. The only difference is weapons and look.

But when you think about it... isn't that what makes all other armies (in todays world) different?

the_crazy_russian
13-08-2008, 20:41
all armies having similar capabilities? you gotta be joking. every army has an achilles' heel for a reason.

i once merged my eldar and tau for an apocalypse game. hand to hand aspect warriors backed by pulse rifles. it's a bad scene, man.

someof the arguments presented don't really make a whole lot of sense either.

-you can have descent numbers with tau without skimping on necessary things. of course, if you splurge on kit and transports for the whole squad, they will be few. you also can't expect to match horde armies, because they don't have pulse rifles or a 4+ armor save as standard and cost accordingly.

-the nids, their anti-tank works in the assault phase. venom cannons and the like are merely to stop the tanks from driving away from your assaulters. teh smaller bugs make more than adequate cannon fodder.

-necron gauss weaponry can also lay on the hurt against armor. a model only slightly more expensive than a space marine can no longer destroy a land raider with one lucky shot, but a volley of these lucky shots will leave a tank crippled and useless. if you want to kill it quick, take heavy destroyers: the obvious solution. anti-tank waponry to kill tanks? prepostrous!

-sob have a little something called faith, that can make a squad do just about anything well. tired of those pesky aspect warriors striking before you? get +2 initiative, and rending if you like. yes, faith points run out, but a well-placed act of faith can really throw a wrench in the best laid plans.

-eldar have a unit for EVERY battlefield task, you just have to know how to apply it. if you can do that and make all the elements of your army work in concert, they will be nigh unstoppable.

Zerosoul
13-08-2008, 21:55
I can't take these opinions seriously:


Tyranids for example have almost armor, and low quality of range. If you Think you could use Carnifexes, Biovores, or Zoanthropes, the last two come in only 3 per army, and the first option is only effective against "light" targets like Imperial Guard or Ork Truckks.

[...]then you realise that there mare hidden faults, like Tau come in small numbers and that is their real Achilles' heel, not that lack of melee or the Dark Eldars' low quality of their troops.

Seriously. They're just wrong. Tyranids have -amazing- ranged. Anyone who says otherwise has never been on the receiving end of Nidzilla.

And DE's have low quality troops? If Orks weren't retardedly good for their points, DE warriors would be by FAR the best value thanks to their EXCELLENT stat lines and powerful options. Varietywise the DE have sucky troops, but quality wise they're just fantastic.

ChaosTicket
14-08-2008, 14:20
Here's a thing, Necrons have NO way to handle tanks and MEQs outside of Heavy Support and the Necron Lord. I thought that was annoying before because of the short range of th Necrons weapons(outside the afformentioned heavy support) and that they could only GLANCE, but I found that ok for people who played it. In the 5th edition glancing will be even less effective than in the 3rd edition when a Necron Force was first created.

Tyranids only option for handling MEQs are all the "Medium" Tyranids using Rending Claws, and the only way that can hurt a non-opened top vehicle is the Barbed Strangler on a Tyranid , a Zoanthrope/Tyrant with Warp Blast, or a Tyranid Monstrous Creature in melee.

Eldar are a mobile force, but their transport in so expensive(thought highly effective) that your aspect warriors can't be mounted, while on the Other side the coin, the Dark Eldar have such a cheap(but also highly effective) transport that you can mount up the whole force, but they have only light troops. Elite Infantry need a cheap transport and Light Infantry need a heavy transport(like Space Marines' Rhino and Imperial Guards' Chimera).

Tau had a whole Mono-tasked force, like a more static Eldar. Yeah they were a viable force still, like you could have Fire Warriors with a Marker Light so the unit could hit on a 2+, but then a FAQ killed that. They Reduced the Seeker Missles on Devilfish down to 2. Kroot have no defense outside on Cover. Battlesuits(apart from the broadside) still come in half-strength squads.

Chaos Marines lack some simple but very important things like Plasma Cannons, Storm Bolters, and Assault Cannons. Back in 2nd Edition that was fine, as Combi bolters inflicted two hits for every shot that hit, Combi-Flamers and Combi-Meltaguns could be used infinitely, and the Reaper Autocannon Had a range, power, and armor piercing over the Assault Cannon. Now Combi weapons are one use, the Reaper Autocannon is much weaker in all areas, and now that the Rapid Fire rule for Astartes is gone, the combi bolter is a Storm Bolter with half as many shots over 24".




I could keep going, but there's alot more. Safe to say that the Gimmicks/Boons these armies have are becoming weaker as time goes on as rules and army lists change.

Oberon
14-08-2008, 14:40
Handling MEQ does not necessarily mean you need to get straight through their armour. Necrons and nids have high volumes of high str shooting, even MEQs go down to that, and that is nids answer to power armour. Somehow nidzilla seems to work just fine against SM, even though SM have the power armour, funny?

the_crazy_russian
14-08-2008, 16:02
Here's a thing, Necrons have NO way to handle tanks and MEQs outside of Heavy Support and the Necron Lord. I thought that was annoying before because of the short range of th Necrons weapons(outside the afformentioned heavy support) and that they could only GLANCE, but I found that ok for people who played it. In the 5th edition glancing will be even less effective than in the 3rd edition when a Necron Force was first created. Tyranids only option for handling MEQs are all the "Medium" Tyranids using Rending Claws, and the only way that can hurt a non-opened top vehicle is the Barbed Strangler on a Tyranid , a Zoanthrope/Tyrant with Warp Blast, or a Tyranid Monstrous Creature in melee.

because we all know that space marines are not capable of failing their armor saves. the only way to hurt them is to hit them with ap 1-3 weapons. :rolleyes: if tyranids were able to destroy vehicles at range as effectively as tau/marines/guard, they would, in fact, be unbalanced or 'broken' as the forum lingo calls them. they can have hordes of rending, monstrous creatures etc that will get to a vehicle and kill it if used correctly. the same goes for necrons: loads of shots to bring down marines. you're just going around in circles about vehicles. vehicles are not as vulnerable to their non-tank busting shooting as before, but what other race has small arms that can do anything to av12 and above? now wraiths can tear apart anything short of a land raider in combat. you just need to (here comes that phrase again!) apply them correctly so that they don't die on the way in. you don't hear any other race complaining that they are forced into lascannons/railguns/brightlances to tackle tanks!



Eldar are a mobile force, but their transport in so expensive(thought highly effective) that your aspect warriors can't be mounted, while on the Other side the coin, the Dark Eldar have such a cheap(but also highly effective) transport that you can mount up the whole force, but they have only light troops. Elite Infantry need a cheap transport and Light Infantry need a heavy transport(like Space Marines' Rhino and Imperial Guards' Chimera).

re-read what you posted and you will understand. eldar transports are the most expensive, but also the most effective in the game. see a connection? aspect warriors can in fact be mounted, because i do it. two wave serpents in 1500 pts, and still enough points left over to outnumber other 'elite' armies such as marines. of course, if you mount up the whole force, and otherwise splurge on kit, you'll have a 20 model army, but you had that one coming to you. dark eldar, on the other hand, can be entirely mounted, but don't forget to factor in open-topped transports with paper towel for armor, and you will know why. the accusation that dark eldar troops are poor in quality has no basis. it simply means you haven't seen enough dark eldar. incubi and wytches are just as good as aspect warriors (in some cases, better).



Tau had a whole Mono-tasked force, like a more static Eldar. Yeah they were a viable force still, like you could have Fire Warriors with a Marker Light so the unit could hit on a 2+, but then a FAQ killed that. They Reduced the Seeker Missles on Devilfish down to 2. Kroot have no defense outside on Cover. Battlesuits(apart from the broadside) still come in half-strength squads.

the tau don't need to be more powerful. battlesuits that are :eek: used properly can shoot the enemy full of holes and avoid return fire altogether, forcing the enemy to choose between shaking their fists at them or leaving their carefully chosen position so that the rest of the force can get at them. fire warriors make up for their mediocre ballistic skill with the most powerful small arm in the game. markerlights can still be greatly beneficial, except now you also have to think about their use ("do i need to improve my chances to hit, or would dropping their cover save be better?"). kroot are largely useless as i see them, i will agree to that, but then they always were.



Chaos Marines lack some simple but very important things like Plasma Cannons, Storm Bolters, and Assault Cannons. Back in 2nd Edition that was fine, as Combi bolters inflicted two hits for every shot that hit, Combi-Flamers and Combi-Meltaguns could be used infinitely, and the Reaper Autocannon Had a range, power, and armor piercing over the Assault Cannon. Now Combi weapons are one use, the Reaper Autocannon is much weaker in all areas, and now that the Rapid Fire rule for Astartes is gone, the combi bolter is a Storm Bolter with half as many shots over 24".


chaos also have other simple and very powerful things, like t5 feel no pain/ap3 bolters/assault 2 or heavy 3 bolter equivalents/insane close combat potential in their TROOPS choices, twin linked bolters instead of stormbolters (worse at long range, better at close range), monstrous creatures etc etc. once again, it all boils down to tactics that differ ever so slightly from the loyalist marine army.

i have played each of the latter 3 armies, and can tell you that they are not weak by any stretch of the imagination. as a matter of fact, my last loss was with the army you keep comparing everyone else to: space marines. try using other races differently from marines, play to their strength and stop focussing on their weaknesses. you will quickly see that the argument you are presenting now has no foot to stand on.

Ambu
14-08-2008, 19:01
Ok, to be more clear, nearly any army can be mobile, by use of Assault weapons, melee units, jump infantry, vehicles, etc.


Look at RL armies. Though they may have some simularities, none are equal. Some fave a better air force, some are better at guerilla fighting, somes tanks are like tinfoil while others seem to be roling mini fortresses.


Chaos Ticket, whatever game it is that you want to play is not one I'm interested in. The great differences between armies is one of the things that keeps the hobby interesting. I wouldn't want to play a game where every army was capable in every sphere.

Agreed


Here's a thing, Necrons have NO way to handle tanks and MEQs outside of Heavy Support and the Necron Lord. I thought that was annoying before because of the short range of th Necrons weapons(outside the afformentioned heavy support) and that they could only GLANCE, but I found that ok for people who played it. In the 5th edition glancing will be even less effective than in the 3rd edition when a Necron Force was first created.

Ok for one, from what I understand, 'crons will be getting a new codex in the next year And by the wording of this statement have you even played 5th ed yet. Havent got a chance to play against crons, but some of the stats and weapon strs may have changed.


Tyranids only option for handling MEQs are all the "Medium" Tyranids using Rending Claws, and the only way that can hurt a non-opened top vehicle is the Barbed Strangler on a Tyranid , a Zoanthrope/Tyrant with Warp Blast, or a Tyranid Monstrous Creature in melee.

Not true, my uddy plays nids aand they are not all medium w/ rending claws and he handles MEQ armies fine. In fact my smurf playing buddy barely rallied out a tie with him the other day.

[qoute]Eldar are a mobile force, but their transport in so expensive(thought highly effective) that your aspect warriors can't be mounted, while on the Other side the coin, the Dark Eldar have such a cheap(but also highly effective) transport that you can mount up the whole force, but they have only light troops. Elite Infantry need a cheap transport and Light Infantry need a heavy transport(like Space Marines' Rhino and Imperial Guards' Chimera).[/quote]
Eldar elites really don't need transports honestly, while the DE almost need to rely on them too much. Hopefully they will be getting their rewrite very very soon.


Tau had a whole Mono-tasked force, like a more static Eldar. Yeah they were a viable force still, like you could have Fire Warriors with a Marker Light so the unit could hit on a 2+, but then a FAQ killed that. They Reduced the Seeker Missles on Devilfish down to 2. Kroot have no defense outside on Cover. Battlesuits(apart from the broadside) still come in half-strength squads.

Never messed w/ the Tau so I won't combat on them.


Chaos Marines lack some simple but very important things like Plasma Cannons, Storm Bolters, and Assault Cannons. Back in 2nd Edition that was fine, as Combi bolters inflicted two hits for every shot that hit, Combi-Flamers and Combi-Meltaguns could be used infinitely, and the Reaper Autocannon Had a range, power, and armor piercing over the Assault Cannon. Now Combi weapons are one use, the Reaper Autocannon is much weaker in all areas, and now that the Rapid Fire rule for Astartes is gone, the combi bolter is a Storm Bolter with half as many shots over 24".

CSM lack those things for a reason, mainly they split b4 those were created or don' have the means to keep them up to date. They can get Plasma Cannons on Dreadnaughts. Twin-Linked Bolters is what they had when they split, and imho the Reaper Autocannon is a fine weapon. I mean if you need more then 3 ft to hit a target w/ a twin-linked str 7 ap 4 (w/ atleast a 4bs to boot)weapon then you are playin chaos wrong anyway.

Marines don't have Havoc launchers, Daemon weapons, Icons, and noise weapons.

The thing is if all armies were able deal with things in the exact or simular ways the game wouldn't be much worth playing and boring.