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Zoink
04-11-2005, 13:53
Right - apologies for the extreme basic nature of this query, but my group and I are deeply confused about how to move our models about on the battlefield. We've read the book and still can't figure it out.

How does wheeling work?

The book implies that you measure the distance moved by the furthest model (ie the one furthest from the pivot) and accompanies this by diagrams showing these models moving along straight lines and in little arcs.

So my question is this: do you measure the distance between the final and initial position, or do you work out how far the curved path would be between those points?

Obviously with small wheels it makes hardly any difference, but on bigger wheels the difference is large (especially if you want to wheel 90 or 180 degrees). In fact with 180 degree wheels I can't see how you could do it without working out the distance of the curved arc.

T10
04-11-2005, 14:16
You keep it simple and measure the direct line, ignoring the curve.

If you think this is strange for a 90 or 180 degree wheel, how about 270 degrees?

Anyways, an extreme wheel of say 180 degrees will typically cost a four-wide regiment of 20mm base models about 6,5" inches (8" for 25mm base models). If the unit has Move 5 or less, it is more cost efficient to execute a 90 degree turn and then move the remaining 3/4 move.

-T10

Festus
04-11-2005, 16:57
Hi

Anyways, an extreme wheel of say 180 degrees will typically cost a four-wide regiment of 20mm base models about 6,5" inches (8" for 25mm base models). If the unit has Move 5 or less, it is more cost efficient to execute a 90 degree turn and then move the remaining 3/4 move.


But this often changes the formation of the unit as well, a 4x5 unit becomes a 5x4 unit, a 2x10 unit a 10x2 unit,...

This can be quite unwanted :)

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
05-11-2005, 03:28
You keep it simple and measure the direct line, ignoring the curve.

I'm sure that they do that on some planets. :)

The curve of the wheel is very much part of the movement. You can't wheel 90 degrees without first wheeling the other 89. While I suppose that some people might fudge it and lose whole inches by measuring the straight line, I used some simple math to create a chart of wheeling distances based on the width of the unit's frontage and some common distances wheeled, 30, 45, 60 and 90. I'm pretty sure I took the wrong book home from my friend's house so I don't have my wheeling chart here to transcribe but I will try to remember to get around to posting it.

If you can't wait for that, then you can figure out the exact distance moved in a wheel by using something you are probably somewhat familiar with. Pi! You know, 3.14159265? That is the ratio of circumference to diameter in a circle. Since wheeling uses a radius (half diameter) you would instead double pi and use 6.2831853.

So if your cavalry unit of five horsies is 5" wide then a 360 degree wheel would take them 31.41" (6.2831853 x 5) and 90 degrees is a quarter of that so 7.85" to wheel 90 degrees.

If this idea of doing things accurately interests you but my explenation sucks then check out the link below or check this thread again after I remember to post my handy-dandy chart.

http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol2/circumference.html

hairyman
06-11-2005, 11:23
We actually got funky with pi and created a handy wheeling chart as well, but then thought the game designers must've had something simpler in mind when they were designing the movement rules. I mean, if they wanted that level of accuracy, then it'd be in the book, I reckon?

Festus
06-11-2005, 11:28
Hi

You measure the path of the model that moved furthest. This will be a curve, and it will usually follow Pi during a wheel.

But in most instances, it is easier to measure the straight line, if you wheel 1" or a few inches, it doesn't matter much, I daresay.

If you are really tight about it, you will have to be precise, though.
But as most people don't care for those fractions of fractions of fractions of an inch, we usually don't care too much.

Greetings
Festus

Da GoBBo
06-11-2005, 14:48
I usually measure from the corner closest to the enemy unit. Subtract your measurement from your maximum chargingdistance and that's the distant you can use for wheeling. Measuring a wheel can be done really quite(?) precise by using them 18" red sticks provided by GW so that won't really be a problem and (no matter how funny) you don't actually need pie for a proper wheel. This methode can only be used when wheeling at the very beginning of yer chargemove (which covers most situations). Wheeling in the middle of a move works a bit different.
Anyway, just take your time doin yer movements the first couple of times.

mageith
06-11-2005, 15:09
Hi

You measure the path of the model that moved furthest. This will be a curve, and it will usually follow Pi during a wheel.

:) Usually? I will always follow pi, at least theoretically-at least on a flat table.



But in most instances, it is easier to measure the straight line, if you wheel 1" or a few inches, it doesn't matter much, I daresay.

If you are really tight about it, you will have to be precise, though.
But as most people don't care for those fractions of fractions of fractions of an inch, we usually don't care too much.

We've tried various tools and methods to measure accurately but very quickly return to the straight line method. However on wheels of greater than 90% we tend to measure more than once.

Mage Ith

Atrahasis
06-11-2005, 15:16
At 90 degrees, the discrepancy between arc and chord is more than half an inch, so for any wheel approaching that size it is advisable to be as accurate (to pi) as possible.

Festus
06-11-2005, 15:23
Hi

true, but you seldom wheel this far (at least I don't, I better turn and or add/subtract ranks and/or reform...)

In a charge situation, it seems nigh on impossible to have to wheel 90°. This has to be a very unusual charge indeed IMO.

Greetings
FEstus

Major Defense
06-11-2005, 15:42
We actually got funky with pi and created a handy wheeling chart as well, but then thought the game designers must've had something simpler in mind when they were designing the movement rules.

There is a pi-based wheeling template in the back of the book next to the dragon's breath template and some other stuff. I really need to find that book!

Atrahasis
06-11-2005, 15:43
There is a pi-based wheeling template in the back of the book next to the dragon's breath template and some other stuff. I really need to find that book!

Not in my book . . .

fredmundo
07-11-2005, 08:22
.... you don't actually need pie for a proper wheel.

Very true although most wastoids may well declare that you need Pie for a proper dinner!

(sorry could resist the spelling mistake...)

hairyman
07-11-2005, 09:34
There is a pi-based wheeling template in the back of the book next to the dragon's breath template and some other stuff. I really need to find that book!

Not in my book either.... would be nice, though.


If you are really tight about it, you will have to be precise, though. But as most people don't care for those fractions of fractions of fractions of an inch, we usually don't care too much.


This sounds about right to me.

Zoink
07-11-2005, 09:38
Hmmm so quite a range of opinion on how to do it.

My calculations showed that the distance required to wheel 90 degrees is (PI/2) times the frontage of the unit. We simplified this to 1.5 times the frontage as a rule of thumb. So a unit 4" wide needs 6" to turn 90 degrees, or 12" to turn 180 degrees. It worked very well, and can be used for bigger turns without losing too much accuracy.

Da GoBBo
07-11-2005, 23:14
Very true although most wastoids may well declare that you need Pie for a proper dinner!

(sorry could resist the spelling mistake...)

:D lol, the dutch pronouncing is just the same. Gues I mixed some things up.

Major Defense
10-11-2005, 14:46
There is a pi-based wheeling template in the back of the book next to the dragon's breath template and some other stuff. I really need to find that book!

I found my BRB and I guess I got that template is from a PDF on the GW site. Sorry about being so blatantly wrong all at once. ;)

Anyway, here's my fancy wheeling chart. Everything has been rounded up to the nearest 16th of an inch and you can see for yourself how easy it is to use.

wheeling |30 degrees | 45 degrees | 60 degrees | 90 degrees
-----------------------------------------------------------
20mm -- | -- 7/16" - | -- 5/8" --- | -- 7-8" --- | -- 1-1/4"
25mm -- | -- 9/16" - | -- 13/16" - | -- 1-116" - | -- 1-9/16"
40mm -- | -- 7/8" -- | -- 1-1/4" - | -- 1-11/16" | -- 2-1/2"
50mm -- | -- 1-1/16" | -- 1-9/16" | -- 2-1/16" -| -- 3-1/8"
60mm -- | -- 1-1/4" -| -- 1-7/8" - | -- 2-1/2" - | -- 3-3/4"
75mm -- | -- 1-9/16" | -- 2-3/8" - | -- 3-1/8" - | -- 4-11/16"
80mm -- | -- 1-11/16"| -- 2-1/2" -| -- 3-5/16" -| -- 5"
100mm - | -- 2-1/16" | -- 3-1/8" - | -- 4-1/8" - | -- 6-3/16"
120mm - | -- 2-1/2" -| -- 3-3/4" - | -- 5" ----- | -- 7-7/16"
125mm - | -- 2-5/8" -| -- 3-7/8" - | -- 5-3/16" -| -- 7-3/4"
140mm - | -- 2-15/16"| -- 4-3/8" -| -- 5-3/16" -| -- 8-11/16"
150mm - | -- 3-1/8" -| -- 4-11/16"| -- 6-3/16" -| -- 9-5/16"
160mm - | -- 3-5/16" | -- 5" ----- | -- 6-5/8" - | -- 9-15/16"
175mm - | -- 3-5/8" -| -- 5-7/16" -| -- 7-1/4" - | -- 10-7/8"
180mm - | -- 3-3/4" -| -- 5-5/8" - | -- 7-7/16" -| -- 11-3/16"
200mm - | -- 4-1/8" -| -- 6-3/16" -| -- 8-1/4" - | -- unpossible

T10
10-11-2005, 15:00
Unpossible?

-T10

mageith
10-11-2005, 15:42
Hmmm so quite a range of opinion on how to do it.

My calculations showed that the distance required to wheel 90 degrees is (PI/2) times the frontage of the unit. We simplified this to 1.5 times the frontage as a rule of thumb. So a unit 4" wide needs 6" to turn 90 degrees, or 12" to turn 180 degrees. It worked very well, and can be used for bigger turns without losing too much accuracy.

We tried that for a while but the calculations got tedious and it slowed the game down a lot. (Units couldn't get as far.)

It's another nail in infantry's coffin and will result in more advantage to single models skirmishers (and fast cav, but who cares?).

I've never met anyone in a game who really wanted to insist on accurate wheeling. The straight line measure is easiest. We even had a template, but could never find it when needed.:)

However, if the experience of players is different in different parts of the world, I'd be interested.

As Major's table shows, the difference can be significant in inches, but is the difference significant in game play?

Mage Ith

Major Defense
10-11-2005, 18:33
I've never met anyone in a game who really wanted to insist on accurate wheeling. The straight line measure is easiest. We even had a template, but could never find it when needed.:)

I find that hard to believe when so much of the movement of the game involves trying to position yourself ju-u-u-ust outside of an enemy's charge range.

Festus
10-11-2005, 20:50
Hi


I find that hard to believe when so much of the movement of the game involves trying to position yourself ju-u-u-ust outside of an enemy's charge range.

In most cases, the difference is unimportant, because you will still have a bít of Movement left.

For example:

Your average 100mm unit (5 bases of 20mm each) wheels by 30°.
A 30°-wheel is quite a bit of a wheel already. According to your calculations, it uses 2.0625". In a straigt line, it still needs about 2.06".

The same unit needs 4.125" for a 60° wheel according to you. In a straight line it is 3.94": A difference of a whopping 0.185" or 4.7mm! Wow, this is tactically decisive...

Some may play the game tightly and be very a**l about this, but I can hardly believe that it makes much of a difference in actual gameplay. Additionaly, the (house-)rule to simply measure in a straight line will be the same for all.

So I still have only one question:

Why bother?:rolleyes:

Greetings
Festus

Da GoBBo
10-11-2005, 22:01
:D hehe, lol. Because we can?

Major Defense
11-11-2005, 20:34
Festus + couth - invariably dissenting opinion = normal person :)


A difference of a whopping 0.185" or 4.7mm!

Yeah, that's between a 5th and a 6th of an inch. I gather by your distaste for measuring that you aim for entire inches of distance between units because you have trouble guaging such small distances? My last battle against Skaven I was parking my chariots 15-1/4" away from ratling guns just to get my friend to shoot and hopefully misfire. Charges are just another part of the game where you can outwit your opponent by guessing distances better than they would.