PDA

View Full Version : Herold with armour of Khorne on Jugger: 3+ or 0+ armour save?



chaos spawn
14-08-2008, 20:21
I read the new deamon FAQ where GW tried to clarify how Deamonic gifts should work. Now I'm a bit confused. In the FAQ it says that boni of the same type are not added up.

So what is the armour save of a Herald of Khorne wearing the Armour of Khorne, riging on a Juggernaught?

Is it 0+ ?(3+ from the Armour plus 3 from the Jugger)

Or is it 3+ as the bonus of the deamonic gift is not added to the bonus given by the Juggernaught?

Shamfrit
14-08-2008, 20:28
Daemonic Gifts do not stack no, but, the benefit from the Brass Behemoth special rule is not a Daemonic gift, and like all other mounted armour increases, it does increase the armour save to 0+.

Atrahasis
14-08-2008, 20:46
Shamfrit is correct.

chaos spawn
14-08-2008, 20:49
but in one of the examples given the heavy armour of the Bloodthirster also doesn't stack with the armour of Khorne even though the heavy armour is not a demonic gift.

decker_cky
14-08-2008, 21:03
Think of it this way....you can have a basic armour save from one source, and every other part that can combine must explicitly give permission to combine. Heavy armour doesn't have that, but the juggernaut does. Ergo, juggernaut + armour of khorne is allowed to combine.

SirDigger
14-08-2008, 22:01
Yeah thats how it is obviously. But one question. In a forum in my for my countries people, some really annoying guy always starts to roll up the same discussion about this 3+/o+ save again cause he means that Demonic Gifts are no items thus cant be kombined with the jugger (he thinks the FAQ confirms that with the example with the Khornedaemon and the non-stackin armor). But that's complete nonsense because two armors don't stack but a save and a jugger kombine like armored guy on a horse. I just want some guys to confirm my thoughts about this^^

Kalec
14-08-2008, 22:55
The jugger is just an extra-barded warhorse, which combines its bonus with magic armor. The daemon FAQ confirms that the armor from the daemonic gifts is effectively magic armor, which is why it doesn't stack with the mundane heavy armor or other magic armor available to the 'Thirster.

decker_cky
14-08-2008, 23:05
BRB, Page 30:
"If the rider is armoured, then his armour save will be 1 better than it would be if he were on foot, or 2 better if the mount is wearing armour (ie, barding) as well."

DoC, Page 44:
"A Juggernaut adds +3 to its rider's armour save, rather than the normal +1."

Actually, the thing that ruling really screws up is that chaos armour, gromril armour and full plate armour all apparently don't combine with shields (unless it's a magic shield with a combine clause).

Harwammer
14-08-2008, 23:20
Paraphrase of armor rules in shooting section: 'wounded models have a chance to avoid damage if wearing armor, carrying shields or mounted'

Suggests to me armor is separate to shields so they can be combined, as with the mounted bonuses. Not that it needs justifying.

Deetwo
14-08-2008, 23:58
Actually, the thing that ruling really screws up is that chaos armour, gromril armour and full plate armour all apparently don't combine with shields (unless it's a magic shield with a combine clause).

I thought all shields had that rule? Or am I thinking some old edition here.

decker_cky
15-08-2008, 00:16
Old edition. Shields don't actually have their use defined beyond the table on page 30, and how they combine with hand weapons for an additional +1. That means, by strict RAW, a dwarf ironbreaker only has a 4+ armour save against shooting, 3+ in close combat, and an empire, or chosen chaos knight only has a 2+ armour save. Nobody plays it that way, but this is another case of GW putting the wrong explanation for a right answer in a FAQ. Had they just said daemonic gifts could be items, and that the armours counted as suits of armour, everything would have worked out cleanly, but instead they insisted on a weird workaround.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 03:17
Maybe I'm not skilled enough in these things, but I've never found there to be any question about the case. Herald had no armour, herald on mount (lets say slaaneshi on steed) gets +1 to its armour save, which is nothing and thus increases to 6+. Or on a chariot (s)he'd have 5+ save. Armour of Khorne is a gift, yes, but it confers an armour save to the wearer. Does it matter where it comes from (rune, spell, mount, shield, what ever), as it's an armour save non the less. So on top of that you slap the benefit of a mount, which adds +3 to the save. 3+ armour +3 to armour save from Juggie = 0+ armour save.

Or have I missed something completely?

chaos spawn
15-08-2008, 06:59
The problem is that GW stated in the FAQ that a bonus of the same type does not stack with a bonus given by a demonic gift. In an example they give they say, that the armour bonus of the heavy armour does not stack with the bonus of the Deamonic Gift "Armour of Khorne". The FAQ also says that demonic gifts, no matter what their name is, are not items. So the armour of Khorne is not an armour.

So one could assume that if you have a bonus, no matter where it comes from, it never stacks with a bonus from a Demonic Gift if the effects of the boni are similar.

So now I have a problem to see where the difference is between: Armour save from armour and armour save from demonic gift (in which case it doesn't stack) and Armour save from mount and save from Demonic Gift.

Could someone explain why the armour save from the mount adds up with the gift while the armour save from an armour doesn't.

Nurgling Chieftain
15-08-2008, 07:11
Could someone explain why the armour save from the mount adds up with the gift while the armour save from an armour doesn't.It's really very simple. Both "suits" grant an armour save. The steed grants a bonus to your armour save. The "suits" grant the same armour save and do not stack. The steed adds to any existing armour save, so will stack with either.

Imagine, for example, you have an item that gives you S6, another item that also gives you S6, and a weapon which grants you +3 to your strength. What's your strength on a hit? It is S9, S6 for either of the two items that grant S6 and +3 for the weaponthat adds to your strength.

SirDigger
15-08-2008, 07:31
Yeah i think it's pretty obvious too. In the FAQ, the example is about two ARMORS, but an armor and something that IMPROVES armor are not the same things. If they would, riders of every race wouldn't geht any benefits from sittin on horses then x D. Furthermore it doesn't matter wether the armor of khorne is no armor. The only important thing is that he HAS a save. If that save couldn'd be improved, it would be specified clearly in the rule section. The assumption that gifts don't stack with other bonuses is wrong too cause it's stated in the FAQ as well that the balesword and a flail stack for a greater effect. A flail is a "normal" weapon whilst the sword is a gift. If the gifts effect would be "counts as a flail", the daemon would only have a flail because the SAME effects don't stack. Different effects do, like armor save and save bonuses.

EDIT: Obviously shields are meant to improve Chaos, plate and gromril armor as sooo many equipment options would be senseless then x D

Valaraukar
15-08-2008, 08:15
Yeah, there is no real question it's just people rule lawyering to try and get an unfair advantage. This is only possible because GW have so poorly worded some of their books and subsequent FAQs.

chaos spawn
15-08-2008, 08:23
It's really very simple. Both "suits" grant an armour save. The steed grants a bonus to your armour save. The "suits" grant the same armour save and do not stack. The steed adds to any existing armour save, so will stack with either.

Imagine, for example, you have an item that gives you S6, another item that also gives you S6, and a weapon which grants you +3 to your strength. What's your strength on a hit? It is S9, S6 for either of the two items that grant S6 and +3 for the weaponthat adds to your strength.

Ok, sounds good so far. There is still one issue that comes to my mind: The enchanted shield gives the bearer a 5+ armour save (it does not say +2 bonus to armour). In this case the two saves stack because someone wearing chaos armour (4+ armour save) and enchanted shield (5+) will have a 2+ armour save and not only 4+. So I assumed that it is common practise to add armours even if they are not bonuses but just fix values. So I also assumed if this is the case then a armour save of 5+ for example ist the same thing (same type as mentioned in the FAQ) as a +2 Bonus.

Is it really something different? It isn't in every case it seems but maybe the armour rules in general are a bit inconsistent as decker_cky mentioned before which causes the confusion.

Valaraukar
15-08-2008, 08:33
The problem is not that you can't combine saves as you certainly can stack shields with light and heavy armour but that whilst you can combine a magic shield with normal armour you can't combine a normal shield with magic armour or a magic shield with magic armour. With chaos armour and gromril armour etc. this is by most people counted as an exception as they can be taken by normal troops not just as magic items so are a sort of inbetween item in some peoples eyes so they take issue with combining them with any shield.

Also with the Daemonic saves because in the FAQ they have stated that things with the same 'effect' (a very general term) as an effect from a daemonic gift do not stack and they give the example of the bloodthirsters heavy armour and the armour of khorne or obsidian armour people are trying to say the mounts extra save should not stack which is ridiculous and as people have stated is technically an increase in save not an armour save. But this would mean if that does count as an armour save then it could not be used in conjunction with a magic armour for other races either.

Shamfrit
15-08-2008, 08:42
And if it didn't stack why the frack would you put a Herald on a Thirster anyway, at 50 points?

chaos spawn
15-08-2008, 08:54
Also with the Daemonic saves because in the FAQ they have stated that things with the same 'effect' (a very general term) as an effect from a daemonic gift do not stack and they give the example of the bloodthirsters heavy armour and the armour of khorne or obsidian armour people are trying to say the mounts extra save should not stack which is ridiculous and as people have stated is technically an increase in save not an armour save. But this would mean if that does count as an armour save then it could not be used in conjunction with a magic armour for other races either.

I wouldn't say it is ridiculous because the way the FAQ is worded it comes to mind. The problem is the term 'bonus of the same type'. Is an improvement to an armour save the same type as an armour save itself? I would say yes, but it seems most of the people would say no. I think it's still not absolutely clear, but since no one seems to have a problem with it I will continue to play my Herold of Khorne with a 0+ armour save.

It is often hard to see the intention GW had with some rules. Often you think you know what is meant but then they make an FAQ that shows that you where completely wrong. For example I would assume that the standard of slundering also works on Ogre-magic. Now they release the FAQ thas says: it doesn't.

anyway, thanks for your help.

edit: @Shamfrit maybe because you want to give him a different gift than the Armour of Khorne or the Obsidian Armour and still want to have an armour save of 4+ and an increased movement?

Shamfrit
15-08-2008, 09:23
It was a rhetorical question, lol.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 12:31
I think people are mixing 3+ armour save and +3 to armour save. The benefit of the mount is added, not a fixed number.

SirDigger
15-08-2008, 13:02
In adittion to the obviously combinable 0+, if you use your brains it's obvious as well that it's possible because otherwise the jugger wouldnt be of a great use and his special +3 armor save rule would only affect one unit in the book so they could've as well have given the bloodcrushers a normal 4+ save and that'd be it.

chaos spawn
15-08-2008, 14:11
In adittion to the obviously combinable 0+, if you use your brains it's obvious as well that it's possible because otherwise the jugger wouldnt be of a great use and his special +3 armor save rule would only affect one unit in the book so they could've as well have given the bloodcrushers a normal 4+ save and that'd be it.

If you would use your brain you would know that a 4+ armour save from the Jugger for a naked herold might be quite useful so the +3 armour save rule would not only affect one unit. And a Jugger giving a 4+ armour save, enabeling the Herold to move 14" and having 2 Attacks with WS and ST 5 is still of a great use I would say. In addition to that the same Jugger might be availible for chaos champions in the new Warriors of Chaos book. And if you would use your brain you could see that 15 points is very cheap for a ability that gives you a 3+ armour save that can even be improved, Orcs pay 15 pts for the entchanted shield which only gives a 5+ armour save.

If you would use your brain a little bit more you would would know that not every rule in warhammer is straight forward.

SirDigger
15-08-2008, 15:42
But this one is because the clarification in the FAQ has nothing to do with Armor. There's no text line which states that abilities given by gifts can't be improved nor is there a line in the rulebook which says that only armor saves given by Items or normal armors can be improved.
By the way orcs pay only 15 pts for +1 to S, I and A. VERY good as well

kylek2235
15-08-2008, 17:35
I think people are mixing 3+ armour save and +3 to armour save. The benefit of the mount is added, not a fixed number.

Yeah, that's the way I read it too. I don't think it was the intent though, which is irrelevant. I think that's what most of this getting down too now, intent.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that the Daemon book is the worst written book.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 19:10
How can it not be intented? If one denies the bonus from a Herald on Juggie, I'll disallow all of his mounted guys to get any save from their mount. The FAQ statement is about GIFTS. You can't have the same benefit from two GIFTS. The armour save bonus from a mount is not a GIFT.

Yeah, I think that's about all I have to say. But I agree that the daemon book is by clarity the worst book I've ever come across.

Nurgling Chieftain
15-08-2008, 19:47
It seems like every book gets called the worst written/least clear book ever. IMO, the old 40K Chaos Codicies are still the champions. :cool: Remember when they had to FAQ that you couldn't ride both a bike and a juggernaut? ...And also had to address Khorne Berzerkers with the Mark of Slaanesh? Comedy gold.