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Praexes
15-08-2008, 04:24
I've tried to research it, but everywhere I go, I simply come up with 'It's older than the Leman Russ. Now it's obsolete' and 'It was named after Malcador the Sigilite'. Well thanks, Captain Obvious. :mad:

So how old is the Malcador Heavy Tank, really? Was it pre-heresy? Or just post heresy?


Thanks,
++Praexes++

olmsted
15-08-2008, 05:26
post heresy. i would assume. the leman russ was named in honor of the primarch (current fluff. someone said earlier that leman was actually just a tank commander. no idea.)

and the sacrafice of malcador probably woulndt be known until after the seige ended.

im gonna guess about 30 years after the seige.

Praexes
15-08-2008, 06:02
Malcador getting fried on the Golden Throne wasn't the thing that made him famous though; he was the Emperor's right hand man all through the Unification Wars, he technically outranked the primarchs! So I don't know, either seems plausible. Does anyone know for sure?

olmsted
15-08-2008, 06:54
yeah but you dont get a tank named after you for being a yes man

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2008, 07:43
The Leman Russ is massively pre-imperial, and the Malcador is even older than that. Anything designed with STCs is older. Rhinos, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Chimeras, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, Thunderhawks, Warhounds, Reavers are all examples are pre-Imperial vehicles. They just get renamed when the Imperium brings them into service, because STC.454/323.23 doesn't have the same ring as Malcador, now does it?

Malevon
15-08-2008, 07:53
Most people don't get things named after them until after they're gone, so I'd say post-Heresy.

And on the subject of supposed obsoleteness... perhaps in fluff they are, but I field one in my Adeptus Mechanicus army to represent some old relic the Tech-priests have called back into service, and it fares quite well with the heavy bolter setup.

Leftenant Gashrog
15-08-2008, 14:08
Theres no reason that the Malcador couldn't have been in service prior to the Heresy under a different name, only being renamed after his sacrifice ~ or possibly during his tenure as Imperial Regent. (If memory serves the Macharius was a design which had long faded into history before Macharius was born, only to be renamed after him when the design was reconstructed during M41).

Then again the Leman Russ was known as the Leman Russ long before Russes death - supposedly because he found the STC, its always possible that Malcador somehow discovered the STC for the tank during his unnaturally long life.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 14:16
Land was a smart guy for naming all that stuff after himself. Land Crawler, Land Raider, Land Speeder. Wonder if anyone else has any things named after them?
Roboute Guilliman Club Sandwich.
Lion El'Jonson Interstellar Bypass.
Rogal Dorn Street.
Sanguinius Memorial Hospital.

Faustburg
15-08-2008, 14:23
There is no established fluff as to why the Leman Russ is so named... that he (or the Space Wolfs) should have discovered it or such is nothing but fan conjecture...

Same would go for the Malcador (and any other tank or vehicle not named after a mythological or other animal, but after a imperial hero...)

Edit: Sanguinius has a holiday named after him at least...

Leftenant Gashrog
15-08-2008, 14:27
Land was a smart guy for naming all that stuff after himself. Land Crawler, Land Raider, Land Speeder.

Land only recovered the designs for the anti-grav plates which were only used to develop the Land Speeder some time after his death, so it would seem the Land Speeder at least was named after him by someone else.

Malevon
15-08-2008, 17:50
I guess there's no reason it couldn't have been in service earlier under a different name, that's true.

As an aside, the bit of fluff about Land ranks among the dumbest material published by GW, along with details about Eldar excretions.

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2008, 18:03
Which bit of fluff? That a Rogue Trader fleet discovered an STC system and had it named after him? How is that dumb?

Burnthem
15-08-2008, 18:11
Because they blatantly named it a Land Speeder because it flew over land, then somebody had this crazy ass idea of retconning the name to make it seem as though the guy that rediscovered the STC was named 'Land'.

Come on, who discovered the Plasma Blastgun, Mr Peter Blastgun? No.

Hrw-Amen
15-08-2008, 18:14
I thought that I read somewhere in an old Space Wolves codex that the reason the chapter uses Leman Russ Battletanks is because they are named after their Primarch as he discovered the STC, so even though they are a tad basic in design compared to Predators they have them out of respect.

I always wondered though why they kept the old 'manned' sponsons and did not upgrade them to the type used on Predators?

Burnthem
15-08-2008, 18:19
Just because the sponsons look superficially similiar to the IG manned version doesn't mean that the Marines haven't upgraded the tanks interior with more sophisticated systems. I expect even some competent IG regiments have sophisticated unmanned sponson weapons.

Faustburg
15-08-2008, 19:15
I thought that I read somewhere in an old Space Wolves codex that the reason the chapter uses Leman Russ Battletanks is because they are named after their Primarch as he discovered the STC, so even though they are a tad basic in design compared to Predators they have them out of respect.

I always wondered though why they kept the old 'manned' sponsons and did not upgrade them to the type used on Predators?


Nope, never any explanation at all as to why they have them...

Fluff wise, a plausible theory is that they are spoils of war from when Cardinal Bucharis invaded Fenris with a huge renegade Imperial Guard army (though 5000 years before "present" day, Imperial vehicles are built to last...), and that they were retro-fitted according to the Exterminatus pattern as Space Marines do not operate as the Guard with the huge logistics support needed to keep battle cannons useful, but would be bringing heavy bolter and Autocannon shells for Predators and such anyway.

(And of course; likely the writers didn't want long range ordnance in a short range fighting style army, for balance reasons...)

Easy E
15-08-2008, 19:30
Because they blatantly named it a Land Speeder because it flew over land, then somebody had this crazy ass idea of retconning the name to make it seem as though the guy that rediscovered the STC was named 'Land'.

I always thought that was part of the old GW humor. It makes me chuckle.

Malevon
15-08-2008, 19:36
I always thought that was part of the old GW humor. It makes me chuckle.

I guess it makes me chuckle, but at the same time it makes me wince.

Marsekay
15-08-2008, 20:20
Land was a smart guy for naming all that stuff after himself. Land Crawler, Land Raider, Land Speeder. Wonder if anyone else has any things named after them?
Roboute Guilliman Club Sandwich.
Lion El'Jonson Interstellar Bypass.
Rogal Dorn Street.
Sanguinius Memorial Hospital.

I think he also discovered "super mario land" for the gameboy


Because they blatantly named it a Land Speeder because it flew over land, then somebody had this crazy ass idea of retconning the name to make it seem as though the guy that rediscovered the STC was named 'Land'.

Come on, who discovered the Plasma Blastgun, Mr Peter Blastgun? No.

Close, but it was actually Mr Peter Plasma.

he designed the ammo type

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 20:27
What's wrong with naming things after people? Ever heard of the Maxim gun?

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2008, 20:31
Or the QE2, for that matter.

Grom Wronghand
15-08-2008, 20:47
Hold on a minute there guys. I thought MrBigMr was just making a joke when he made the 'Mr Land' comment. Are you telling me that GW put it in the fluff that there as a dude called Bob Land or whatever who discovered this stuff? If so, *facepalm*.

Malevon
15-08-2008, 21:14
Yeah, but it was a while ago. I doubt anyone at GW would defend it as anything other than a gag.

icegreentea
15-08-2008, 21:44
Leman Russ naming fluff seems kind of weak because of how it was named back in RT. The Russ already appeared in RT, named after the Imperial Commander Leman Russ. The fluff was completely different and almost completely retconned out of existence. When they settled on the Primarch-Legion-Space Marine + seperate Guard/Army fluff, they kept the name for the tank and came up with some more fluff to explain it away.

biggreengribbly
15-08-2008, 21:51
Hold on a minute there guys. I thought MrBigMr was just making a joke when he made the 'Mr Land' comment. Are you telling me that GW put it in the fluff that there as a dude called Bob Land or whatever who discovered this stuff? If so, *facepalm*.

Arkhan Land actually :angel:

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 23:14
Or the QE2, for that matter.
Yeah, but she didn't design nor build the damn thing. Hiram Maxim designed the gun and sold the design to everyone. Each nation made their own version of it, but they were all called Maxim guns.

So while various places have their own version of the Land Crawler, Land Raider and Land Speeder, they're all referring to the original design. Even basic Leman Russ with the same weaponry has various variants depending on the place it was built (just look at the different kits at FW for even the basic battle cannon one).

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2008, 23:18
I doubt the Emperors toady designed and built a tank, nor did Leman Russ waste his time designed STC tanks.

Faustburg
15-08-2008, 23:18
Leman Russ naming fluff seems kind of weak because of how it was named back in RT. The Russ already appeared in RT, named after the Imperial Commander Leman Russ. The fluff was completely different and almost completely retconned out of existence. When they settled on the Primarch-Legion-Space Marine + seperate Guard/Army fluff, they kept the name for the tank and came up with some more fluff to explain it away.

Leman Russ not being the Primarch but only an "ordinary" chapter master of the Space Wolves* was very short lived, by the time the Leman Russ tank was introduced (in Epic, really, didn't actually have any 40K scale rules until 2nd Ed), the Primarch concept was already long in place.

So, no...


And the Land Raider (and ditto Speeder, and Crawler) being named after a guy named Land was not established when the current model came (2000?). Before that it was really so named because it was more or less directly taken from the Judge Dredd "Cursed Earth Trek" story, featuring a vehicle so named and very close in style to the origninal GW kit...




* No, "Imperial Commander" did/does not mean "Imperial Guard big boss", it means, then as now, that he was on top of his military duties as leader of the chapter also governor of their home world.

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2008, 23:26
* No, "Imperial Commander" did/does not mean "Imperial Guard big boss", it means, then as now, that he was on top of his military duties as leader of the chapter also governor of their home world.

So how do you explain the Marneus Calgar, Imperial Commissar from WD 97? Yes, the Primarchs were originally members of the Imperial Guard in the old fluff, as were most Space Marines (they got promoted to Space Marine, and got mind wiped and retrained).

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 23:45
I doubt the Emperors toady designed and built a tank, nor did Leman Russ waste his time designed STC tanks.
I was talking about something named after a person working on the thing (Land discovered the STCs, right?) There's a ton of things named after great people, but not always after the person who actually did the work.

Or is there some other reason some seem to find the Land fluff so stupid?

Faustburg
15-08-2008, 23:48
So how do you explain the Marneus Calgar, Imperial Commissar from WD 97? Yes, the Primarchs were originally members of the Imperial Guard in the old fluff, as were most Space Marines (they got promoted to Space Marine, and got mind wiped and retrained).

I explain it simply by saying you are wrong...

Leman Russ, in the RT book and WD, was an Imperial Commander, but he was always a leader of the Space Wolves, and a Space Marine.

When the Primarch concept was introduced, he got "upgraded" to that.

Never, ever, were the "Primarchs" connected to the Imperial Guard (or Imperial Army, as it was called for the first year or so, until they got fleshed out in a WD list).

While the Ultra Marines got changed around quite a bit from their original article and mentioning in the RT BRB (Not being a first founding chapter, having a half-Eldar Chief Librarian, etc), Marneus Calgar was never an imperial commisar, that's nonsense...

Marshal Argos
16-08-2008, 07:37
Nope, never any explanation at all as to why they have them...

Fluff wise, a plausible theory is that they are spoils of war from when Cardinal Bucharis invaded Fenris with a huge renegade Imperial Guard army (though 5000 years before "present" day, Imperial vehicles are built to last...), and that they were retro-fitted according to the Exterminatus pattern as Space Marines do not operate as the Guard with the huge logistics support needed to keep battle cannons useful, but would be bringing heavy bolter and Autocannon shells for Predators and such anyway.

(And of course; likely the writers didn't want long range ordnance in a short range fighting style army, for balance reasons...)

And in their codex it clearly states "that in recognition of their Primarch the Space wolves have a handful of LR Exterminators"

Leftenant Gashrog
16-08-2008, 12:26
Leman Russ, in the RT book and WD, was an Imperial Commander, but he was always a leader of the Space Wolves, and a Space Marine.


Actually thats not quite correct, the RT rulebook also noted that he was instrumental in founding the Space Wolves.. so he would presumably have been something else beforehand.

Faustburg
16-08-2008, 14:01
Well, he was always the first leader of the Space Wolves, even if he was only a mere Marine for a short while before the Primarchs were added to the background...

Ddraiglais
16-08-2008, 14:44
Most people don't get things named after them until after they're gone, so I'd say post-Heresy.

The USS Reagan (commissioned 2003) was in service before Ronald Reagan died (2004). The Pershing tank came into service in 1945. Pershing died in 1948. There are other examples too (USS Carl Vinson, Arleigh Burke, Bob Hope, George H.W. Bush, Jimmy Carter, etc). Churchill (1874-1965) was still around when the churchill came into service (1941). I'm sure there are other examples. You are correct that the honor of having a tank or ship named after you is usually after you are dead, but there are exceptions.

I'm basically trying to say that we shouldn't jump to conclusions just because the norm is to name something after someone who is already dead.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 15:08
Stalingrad - Leningrad all night long.