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View Full Version : Redemption from Chaos (alpha legion related a bit)



slaanghoul
15-08-2008, 04:25
There are tons of fluff of goodmen and good xeno who have turned to Chaos (Horus Heresy as an example). Is it possible for those who have turned to chaos, turn back? If yes, would their mutation and such go away?

What about those who were born in Demon worlds, can they be changed? So in a way it would be the opposite of Space marine who turned to chaos. But a chaos born who turned away from Chaos to the Emperor or other "good" gods.

Before you answer, please state that if it is GW fact or it is your PO.

IMO, I think you can't. You wouldn't want to ever because your soul is gone, it belongs to chaos gods. Your soul is who you really are. . . your body is just that. . a body. Once you give away your soul, you are no longer in control. You think you are in control, but you're really not.

With that, I think Alpha Legion are as Chaos as any other Chaos legions. Their original goal is long lost, their double agent ideals have changed. I think now they just want Chaos to win, they have seen the "light" of chaos and change their mind about their original goals. They think they have changed their mind on their own will, but in truth. . . it is because their soul is gone. . . it belongs to chaos.

Eulenspiegel
15-08-2008, 07:33
Before someone else mentions it:

In the old RoC books, the (most likely written out of the background) Sensei could redeem Chaos champions. They renounced their old God, their mutations went away, and the former champion became part of the Sensei´s retinue.
This doesn´t fit into the current background at all.

Then there are the Soul Drinkers (from the BL novels), who somehow renounced Chaos after embracing it at first. I´ve read the first novel some years ago and my knowledge about them is rather shaky, let someone else elaborate on them...
Suffice to say, I found it rather hard to believe.


These days, in every piece of fluff or book I read, falling to Chaos is absolute.

The protagonists may at some point notice what they´ve become, and how their former gloriouos purpose was perverted, at which point the taint in them either suppresses these thoughts or they put a gun to their head.

Like that Character in the new World Bearer novel.

What happens to their soul after they´ve ended their miserable existence I don´t know. Maybe it´s gone for good anyway.

Malevon
15-08-2008, 07:49
Well, I've heard rumor that Blood Ravens are members of the Alpha Legion who have turned back to the light, either as part of the complicated plans of the Alpha Legion or for more altruistic reasons, but I'm not sure if that's official fluff, remotely suggested fluff, or purely fan-made. If someone could shed some light on the status of that rumor, that would have some bearing on this question.

Also, I disagree that the Alpha Legion no longer is simply using Chaos as a tool to strengthen the Imperium. While many members surely have given themselves over to Chaos, Alpharius is still out there and remotely directs the legion's activities, and I haven't read anything to suggest that he's become a tool of his own tool; I suppose that is the nature of Chaos. I don't think there's an official answer to this question though, because I don't think there's supposed to be; the Alpha Legion are supposed to be mysterious, and 40k isn't a story with a conclusion, it's an backdrop against which to stage battles and stories, and the point of the Alpha Legion is that their motives and true allegiance are mysterious, something I don't think GW's likely to rectify.

Ddraiglais
15-08-2008, 08:01
Illuminati are possesed, then throw off the daemon.

In Dead Sky Black Sun there are creatures who are called the Unfleshed. They are failed attempts at making CSM. They worship the Emperor from Medrengard so I would say that there are those in the EoT that worship him.

IMO the mainstream Imperium would never accept any penitant citizens. They would also kill any mutants or anything else that came from the EoT. IIRC, the Inquisition hunts the Illuminati (even though the Illuminati is inbedded in the Inquisition). From what I can remember from Dead Sky Black Sun, Urial Ventris' heart goes out to the Unfleshed. Even though he knows the Imperium would kill them on site, he tells them that the Emperor loves them as well (or something along those lines).

ChaosTicket
15-08-2008, 14:47
Daemonworlds are a prime example of worlds that have no reason to be Imperial. The Chaos Gods actually can grant gifts(and curses) and their followers, send daemons as messengers, and reshape whole worlds. The Chaos gods aren't just a superstition, but can actually change reality.

People living on Daemonworlds end up as soldiers for chaos, like the 2nd Edition Chaos Warriors, and Beastmen.

The Imperials Worship the Emperor as a God, completly disregarding any way to heal him, and the Ecclesiarchy uses him as just a Centralised way to control the people.

The Grey Knights are created by the Emperor's Geneseed, and the Blood Ravens likely get the same thing, but without the Grey Knights specialisation.

Their are lots of rumors about various chapters and groups like the Grey Knights and Blood Ravens, like their were founded by Loyalist members of the Traitor legions.

screenmonkey
15-08-2008, 18:56
The Blood Ravens are not believed to be Alpha Legion but Thousand Sons

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 18:59
by the telling of the flight of the eisenstein book, seems that nathaniel garro, the loyal death guard, and iacton cruze become the start of the grey knights. that's what it seemed like to me

Eetion
15-08-2008, 19:01
The Alpha Legion still have no clear motive. Their actions can be considered to be either pro/anti Imperium, we will never know their true stance.
Personally mine are Chaos all the way... Forgotten Rebels whose true cause died 10'000 years ago.... and they know it. They fight for nothing but hatred and the challenge battle presents..... Or do they?

Malevon
15-08-2008, 19:34
The Blood Ravens are not believed to be Alpha Legion but Thousand Sons
How does that work, if they all turned to dust? Did they come from the Sorcerer's stock? I'm not trying to dispute that if it comes from something official, I just haven't heard it, and I've only ever heard the Alpha Legion rumor from other players; is there an official source on either of those?

Faustburg
15-08-2008, 20:51
It was in their Index Astartes Article in WD.

The original Legions Gene Seed are kept on Earth or Mars, even that of the Traitor Legions, it's just that the latter's are never used anymore, for obvious reasons...

If the rumor is true, someone at some point, possibly working on "the Dark Founding" broke that ban and unfroze a sample of Thousand Sons Gene Seed and used it to create a new chapter, and then destroyed the records.

Rylanor
16-08-2008, 01:08
In Let the Galaxy Burn, there is a story about an Ultramarine captain who was swayed to Chaos by a Daemon-Prince of Nurgle and a member of the Sisters of Battle who sees this Captain corrupted and makes it her personal quest to see him repent. She captures him and makes him realize how far he has fallen, and he agrees to help her take down the Daemon-Prince with the Exterminatus. He succeeds, and is apparently granted salvation. The story literally says that he was "...blasted clean for all eternity." I don't know if this story is accepted by GW, but it was in Let the Galaxy Burn, which was published by BL.
This seems to suggest that those who have fallen to Chaos can get absolution, but it probably costs their soul. I like the way that Eulenspiegel put it when he said, "The protagonists may at some point notice what they´ve become, and how their former glorious purpose was perverted, at which point the taint in them either suppresses these thoughts or they put a gun to their head." True, that.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 02:20
How does that work, if they all turned to dust? Did they come from the Sorcerer's stock? I'm not trying to dispute that if it comes from something official, I just haven't heard it, and I've only ever heard the Alpha Legion rumor from other players; is there an official source on either of those?
I remember hearing that in some HH book a group of the Thousand Sons (company or something?) carries Blood Raven iconography. So could it be that they didn't turn and sought redemption for the sins of their brothers? Also, the Blood Ravens have old TS colours and large amounts of psychers. In DoW they praise the 'unknown primarch'.

CULCHAIN
16-08-2008, 03:28
a few points

1. the soul drinkers never turned to chaos, but were tricked. when they realized what happened the killed the greater daemon that tried to turn them. they fight for the emperor's ideas, but dislike the imperium.

2. the ultramarine never turned to chaos, but was mind screwed into it and the battle sister helped him remember what he was so he killed the greater daemon.

3. I believe you could return from chaos, but would have to hide it or the Inquisition would take you out

4. Fulgrim turned from the daemon after killing (the iron hands primarch) and wanted to forget, which the daemon in him used to possess him and completely turn him to chaos

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 03:34
4. Fulgrim turned from the daemon after killing (the iron hands primarch) and wanted to forget, which the daemon in him used to possess him and completely turn him to chaos
I haven't read any of the HH novels, but the version I've been told, game me the impression that the daemon just took over him and that Fulgrim's soul is still trapped in there. Not even the EC know where their primarch is hanging and they (along with loyalists) are looking for him.

But that's just what I've heard and understood.

CULCHAIN
16-08-2008, 03:39
yes he felt guilty for killing his fellow primarch and the daemon offered to help him forget. he let down his mental barrier and the daemon took over. in a small part fulgrim is locked away. my CSM are called the praetorians they are former EC who are looking for Fulgrim to free him and rejoin humanity.

screenmonkey
16-08-2008, 04:39
How does that work, if they all turned to dust? Did they come from the Sorcerer's stock? I'm not trying to dispute that if it comes from something official, I just haven't heard it, and I've only ever heard the Alpha Legion rumor from other players; is there an official source on either of those?

Only the non-psyker Thousand Sons on the Planet of Sorcerers were turned to dust by The Rubric of Ahriman, the psyker members were rendered immune to the mutations/gifts of Chaos. The Blood Ravens could have been remanants of the legion that didnt follow Magnus to the Eye of Terror. Personally I always saw the Thousand Sons as still somewhat loyal to the emperor much like Alpha Legion but in a very bad spot.

Faustburg
16-08-2008, 07:35
Personally I always saw the Thousand Sons as still somewhat loyal to the emperor much like Alpha Legion but in a very bad spot.

Gah! Not loyal to the Emperor, go read the darn book and understand it!

Joined Horus, working to destroy the Emperor and the Imperium, in order to save the universe.

Self-sacrificing, yes. Between a rock and a hard place, yes. Could have been smarter and not listen to the first rag-tag group of aliens that showed up and claiming to know the future? Yes, but still, in the end and now: Traitors, traitors, traitors.

:) Yes, My current forum peeve; peoples ignorance regarding, and inability to read and understand, the ending of Legion. It's not that I liked the book particularly, or that it is in any case important, it is just about not lightly suffering fools, and lamenting the decline of humanities reading ability....

Eetion
16-08-2008, 08:33
Gah! Not loyal to the Emperor, go read the darn book and understand it!

Joined Horus, working to destroy the Emperor and the Imperium, in order to save the universe.

Self-sacrificing, yes. Between a rock and a hard place, yes. Could have been smarter and not listen to the first rag-tag group of aliens that showed up and claiming to know the future? Yes, but still, in the end and now: Traitors, traitors, traitors.

:) Yes, My current forum peeve; peoples ignorance regarding, and inability to read and understand, the ending of Legion. It's not that I liked the book particularly, or that it is in any case important, it is just about not lightly suffering fools, and lamenting the decline of humanities reading ability....

Thats still little one track for me... Theres still plenty of scope for the Alpha Legion to have been Chaos from the outset and always planned to work with Horus, or maybe Alpharius planned on serving the Emperor by sabotaging Horus's plans, after all the White Scars made it to Terra after the AL were sent to delay them, They didnt take part in siege of Terra, The spread out into many small warbands in Legion fights, and played a largely minimal role in the HH..... But by the same token you could always take the end of the story at face value, during a conversation between probably the 2 most manipulative groups in the Galaxy, in a book with th sub title 'Secrets and Lies'.
But your right, far too many people belie AL are loyalists... Its not guarnteed to be the case because of this book... Theres so much more to it if you analyse just a little deeper.

Alpha Legion in my book... Traitoirs definately, but not nessacerily for the high ideals that Legion gives the impression of.

Ddraiglais
16-08-2008, 08:42
Gah! Not loyal to the Emperor, go read the darn book and understand it!

Joined Horus, working to destroy the Emperor and the Imperium, in order to save the universe.

Self-sacrificing, yes. Between a rock and a hard place, yes. Could have been smarter and not listen to the first rag-tag group of aliens that showed up and claiming to know the future? Yes, but still, in the end and now: Traitors, traitors, traitors.

:) Yes, My current forum peeve; peoples ignorance regarding, and inability to read and understand, the ending of Legion. It's not that I liked the book particularly, or that it is in any case important, it is just about not lightly suffering fools, and lamenting the decline of humanities reading ability....

The TS did not join Horus to destroy the Emperor and the Imperium in order to save the Universe. That is how quite a few traitor legions did end up on Horus' side. However, the TS weren't really given much choice. Their homeworld was destroyed by Imperial forces. Up until that moment, they were loyalists. I won't claim that the TS are loyalists or have anything but contempt for the Imperium now, but their initial motive was self preservation.

I haven't gotten to Legion yet; but from what I've read here, the ending is open to different interpretations. Maybe you should refrain from flaming people who interpret the ending differently than you?

edit: After rereading your post, I believe you were speaking of the AL. In that case, I still have to read Legion to get further into this discussion.

RCgothic
16-08-2008, 09:00
I think it has been deliberately left up to what people want to believe. I want to believe that the AL have not fallen, that they work for/against the Imperium as they see fit. I think it's more interesting that way.

Im not saying1
16-08-2008, 11:25
The Grey Knights are created by the Emperor's Geneseed, and the Blood Ravens likely get the same thing, but without the Grey Knights specialisation.

Only the primarchs have geneseed, the Emporer is just an unmodified human being with extraordinary psyker powers, nothing more.

screenmonkey
16-08-2008, 12:03
honestly I never read the Horus Heresy novels,I just put my theory together from research done for thousand sons army i wanted to run. Infact I thought this for a while and didnt hear that Alpha was "loyal" untill recently.

TheRedAngel
16-08-2008, 14:52
Going back to topic, we have at least a few people turning back from chaos:

Most famous is probably Horus himself in his final seconds.
Status of his soul is completely obliterated.
Another one would be the Dark Angel Luthor.
The Illuminaty have been mentioned. Possessed by demons and clean again.

Older fluff mentions a lot marines of the traitor legions being freed from chaos directly after Horus death (the ones that were not too far down the path of damnation).
The Exorcist Chapter possesses their marines for a short time to boost their powers against chaos.

Faustburg
16-08-2008, 15:03
Older fluff mentions a lot marines of the traitor legions being freed from chaos directly after Horus death (the ones that were not too far down the path of damnation).

Point of order, I'd say that piece of background (reprinted more than once) is really referring to non-marine forces that had sided with Horus without fully knowing what they got themselves into, rather than members of the nine traitor legions. But still, yes...

ChaosTicket
16-08-2008, 16:49
Only the primarchs have geneseed, the Emporer is just an unmodified human being with extraordinary psyker powers, nothing more.

The Emperor is in no Way Human.

The Primarchs are all clone-sons of his. They each had psychic powers, though lesser than his own.

Oh, and the Geneseed that is always spoken of is the Genetic template used for Gene-therapy for the Astartes as well creation of their organs.

It was the Emperor's genetic template that is used to creat the Adeptus Custodes(I think) and Grey Knights. No-other chapter, even the First Founding Legion, the Thousand Sons, had as much Psykers(and sorcerors) as the Grey Knights. Each and every Grey Knight is a Psyker, as only Psykers can actually harm daemons(with force weapons and psyker powers).

There is no actual proof that anyone has actually returned from being traitors, other than Penitent chapters, and they are few and far between, as they would have to completely submit to Imperial Authority while their are being judged, and the Astartes' pride rarely would allow that.

Many Renegade chapters are so because they would not submit, while other are just a short step from becoming Chaos Marines.

CULCHAIN
16-08-2008, 17:04
thats one way to look at it another is to read the books; in let the galaxy burn there is a short story of an ultramarine who turns back from chaos and kills a greater daemon

thelightbringer
16-08-2008, 17:10
I thought the Blood Ravens are an off shoot of the 1000 sons, not the alpha legion!

CULCHAIN
16-08-2008, 17:20
they are from the thousand sons (at least that is the consensus)

ChaosTicket
16-08-2008, 17:23
thats one way to look at it another is to read the books; in let the galaxy burn there is a short story of an ultramarine who turns back from chaos and kills a greater daemon

I know, I love that story, but at the same time, when did 100+ Ultramarines go to a world that became a Daemonworld? The whole story starts as Imperials(Including the 2 main Characters, a Adepus Sororitas, and an Ultramarine) defend a world, but it becomes a daemonworld while being covered with a Daemon prince, who's form is a sea a purtid effluence.

Sure, there are probably Astartes out there that don't follow their chapters and legions to exile. But, they are either killed by the fellows, or killed by the Imperials for being part of the chapter, and if not they will eventually for turning against Imperial Authority.

CULCHAIN
16-08-2008, 17:40
my point is still valid