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Goosey_J
15-08-2008, 06:49
My question concerns a small gap in the Warhammer lore, on the subject of halfbreeds.

Though I imagine it would be practically unheard of for an Elf and a Human to procreate (due to Elven pride n' that), does/can this happen? And more importantly, is there any official fluff on the matter?

El Haroldo
15-08-2008, 07:12
My question concerns why the **** do you care if your little elf models can have sex with your little human models?

Condottiere
15-08-2008, 07:21
Probably, but this fact is conveniently swept under the rug.

Phunting
15-08-2008, 10:18
On behalf of those capable of responding to threads without sounding like an aggressive idiot:

I think, though I'd have to check, half-elves (or half-humans I suppose depending on your POV) are mentioned in 1st ed WHFRP. It wouldn't surprise.

Arnizipal
15-08-2008, 11:31
There used to be half-orcs, but never half-elves (except some dubious bits in the Konrad novels).

Rhamag
15-08-2008, 11:46
I would guess they were dropped after a little while when GW starting subtly changing the background to make it less like the D&D background, which (I understand) has had half-breeds for a long time and still does.

Half-orcs do feature in WFRP 1st Ed. The term also includes those with goblin and hobgoblin blood, as well as mixes with races other than human. They are outcasts from both communities, and band together as merenaries or brigands. Several elector-states have sent extermination parties out into the wilds to reduce their numbers. They were sometimes kept as slaves by humans but that became too dangerous. They speak the common Goblinoid tongue and sometimes Old World.

DarthSte
15-08-2008, 12:04
Firstly, I don't collect or play Warhammer. I'm a lore enthusiast, and I was curious.

Secondly, you're a tool.

I just LOL'd at that. I don't remember the last time I laughed in my office at Warseer. Think I'm going to have to Sig that!

Finnblood
15-08-2008, 12:20
I understand that there was an official staff post on the Black Library forums on the subject and the answer was no, they have far too different physiologies.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate that post, so take this with a pinch of salt.

Rhamag
15-08-2008, 12:38
Even longbeards like me must accept that their gaming world will evolve over time. WFRP 1st Ed also allows dwarves and halflings to be wizards, and gnomes still roamed the mountains and fimirs lived in the marshes.

There were also Khorne Ork Stormboyz, beastmen and human bombs in the Imperial Guard, and Harlequins in neon Land Raiders so the changes aren't restricted to Fantasy!

Vikingkingq
15-08-2008, 13:48
As far as I know, there are no half-Elfs or half-anything in Warhammer Fantasy at the moment.

jimbobodoll
15-08-2008, 14:16
Errrr, Dragon-Ogres anyone? Well, your grandmummy was a dragon who was asleep and your grandaddy was a nasty perv ogre...

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-08-2008, 15:09
Dragon-ogres are not a cross between Dragons and Ogres, despite there name sounding like it. Rather, they are one of the few original races from before the Old Ones came to the Warhammer World, along with Dragons. So while they are related to Dragons(probably), they were around long before Ogres were.

The name have likely more to do with human ignorance than with anything relating to there origin.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-08-2008, 16:01
If anything, the Ogres are derived from the Dragon-Ogres, rather than the other way round.

But as for the question? No half breeds as far as I'm aware.

Ethlorien
15-08-2008, 17:05
Yeah, I leave halfbreeds for D&D myself.

isidril93
15-08-2008, 18:29
nope, no half elves as far as i can tell.

Goosey_J
15-08-2008, 19:36
Cheers, everyone. Cleared that up nicely.

Tastyfish
16-08-2008, 02:03
There are half-elves in warhammer, they just don't actually have any elf blood in them. Someone slightly fey or pale, born to an unmarried mother will probably quite happily accept the stories about his true faerie heritage rather than accept his mother got drunk and was taken advantage of some minstrels from Nuln.

Or a couple of stories involving vaguely similar heroes get confused and elven blood is assumed to be the reason this guy appears to have lived so long - afterall are you going to call your Grandad, or Hans' Grandad a liar, they both swear they met a guy who rode briefly alongside Peitr Silverspear. Besides, what is so unreasonable about half elves?

Old Therold from Bad Hochbad, the old bridge warden who lost an eye to Beastman raiders has strung up recently for sinning against Sigmar with Heinrich's prize sow! She'd been out of sorts for a while and then all of a sudden she has a litter of piglets and one of them also only has one eye!

Arnizipal
16-08-2008, 02:44
As far as I know, there are no half-Elfs or half-anything in Warhammer Fantasy at the moment.
Half-lings? ;)

I wonder what a whole ling looks like.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 03:38
The only reason we don't have half-breeds is because people haven't tried hard enough.

kroq'gar
16-08-2008, 06:43
No half-bloods.

Retconned and written off- thats not to say they dont do the nasty- there are several references to 'trained pleasure slaves from cathay' being imported into ulthuan. No halfbloods though.

The Red Scourge
16-08-2008, 07:07
Retconned and written off- thats not to say they dont do the nasty

Now kroq'qar, its really not that nasty. Most will find it a rather pleasureable experience ;)

Paviel
16-08-2008, 17:30
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Gilead's Blood. There is a half-elf in that book.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 17:44
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Gilead's Blood. There is a half-elf in that book.
Which half? And what happened to the other half?

sideorder_of_chips
16-08-2008, 20:04
Dragon-ogres are not a cross between Dragons and Ogres, despite there name sounding like it.

This has cleared Beast-men up for me. I was wondering why there were so few Slaaneshi armies (dirty little *****s).


The only reason we don't have half-breeds is because people haven't tried hard enough.

The powers-that-be haven't been trying hard enough either. I can probably imagine a fair few Keeper of Secrets that have picked up an orc and an elf and thought hang on...

This followed into the Keeper picking them both up and furiously bashing them together and wondering why it doesn't work.

Zherghegg
17-08-2008, 05:25
im kinda glad they haven't gone down the d&d path, its much cooler to think of the fantasy races as being totally different species, not just stretched out humans (elves) or squashed humans (dwarves)

Finnblood
17-08-2008, 20:11
Half-lings? ;)

I wonder what a whole ling looks like.

Calluna vulgaris (also known as Ling) is the sole species in the genus Calluna in the family Ericaceae. It is the true Heather of Europe, and National Flower of Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather

>_<;

Wolfblade670
18-08-2008, 10:00
The only reason we don't have half-breeds is because people haven't tried hard enough.

MrBigMr has officially entered the thread. :rolleyes: :p



This followed into the Keeper picking them both up and furiously bashing them together and wondering why it doesn't work.

You sir, almost caused me to spit my breakfast across the room from the hilarity of that mental image.

...

So what about half-dwarves?

Keep it coming people, this is a hilarious thread...

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 13:04
MrBigMr has officially entered the thread. :rolleyes: :p
As was foretold within the chronicles of the Black Library:
"And behold, the Great Man shall appear and with Him the decadence of ages, for He is the harbinger of depravity and the keeper of all secrets."


I'm actually amazed interspecies relations aren't more common. I mean, they're all sentient so that's not really a factor and even the great taboo of interracial relations wasn't enough to stop people of different colour falling in love or just having fun in ye olden days. Hell, go back long enough and homosexuality, pedofilia and even beastiality weren't out of the question, where as oral sex for one was a great taboo. And women walked around with one or both breasts exposed. O tempora, o mores.

Who says history is boring?

Satan
18-08-2008, 13:13
IIRC I Gilead's Blood there is a half-elf sired by Gilead's retainer (at some point). It's in the last of the stories, though I can't recall its name. I don't think there are any special features to him though, but don't quote me on that. I'd recommend you to check it out in any case if you can find it as it's a great book.

I suppose half-breeds would be viable, but unpractical and extremely rare when viewed through warhammer background.

InquisitorRex
18-08-2008, 13:13
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Gilead's Blood. There is a half-elf in that book.

To be correct there is a character who either:

A: Thinks he is a half-elf.

of

B: Pretends he thinks he is a half-elf to improve his story, and hopefully earn more free beer.

There's no evidence that he actually is... which is the point of the stories conclusion, i think.

Satan
18-08-2008, 13:17
I'm pretty certain Gilead's retainer explicitly states that he is his father, without any corny Darth Vader impression of course. I haven't got the book with me, but anyone who does can just flip to the last few pages...

Witchfire
19-08-2008, 11:31
Secondly, you're a tool.

I'll second that

sideorder_of_chips
19-08-2008, 12:42
Half-lings?

I wonder what a whole ling looks like.

After half-mating both partners split in two, to form either legs walking around of their own free will or a body wriggling across the floor Half Life 2 style.

To find a whole-ling you would have to stick the two halves back together or try and mate a halfling with an ogre.

Witchfire
19-08-2008, 12:49
No half-bloods.

Retconned and written off- thats not to say they dont do the nasty- there are several references to 'trained pleasure slaves from cathay' being imported into ulthuan. No halfbloods though.

High elves keep sex slaves?

I think you mean Naggoroth :confused:

Condottiere
19-08-2008, 13:57
Hard to believe that any human, however well trained, can beat an enthusiastic Elven amateur.

sideorder_of_chips
19-08-2008, 14:11
Hard to believe that any human, however well trained, can beat an enthusiastic Elven amateur.

However well trained, you can't beat a slightly drunk Dark elf equiped with handcuffs.

neXus6
19-08-2008, 14:14
Glancing at the thread Giliad's Blood was the first thought I had of a slighly more recent example than 1st Ed WFRP, and it eventually got mentioned. :p

I'll have to try and dig it out of my pile of books and check, but I'm pretty sure he is a Half-Elf.

I think the main thing is that from an army perspective, so that of Warhammer scale, it doesn't really matter, it is more something for WFRP/Novel level of the Warhammer background, and those are distinctly lesser parts unfortunatly. :(


And nice going on the "your a tool" reply Goosey, not only very funny but on evidence totaly accurate too. :D

MrBigMr
19-08-2008, 16:51
However well trained, you can't beat a slightly drunk Dark elf equiped with handcuffs.
If only Rodney King had been an elf.

Jayspoonio
20-08-2008, 21:21
Half-lings?

I wonder what a whole ling looks like.


A ling is a type of deep-water fish. It is delicious. A half-ling is also called a fillet, and is lightly battered, deep-fried, and served with chips.

In any case, I'm sure the elven cults of pleasure have tried just about everything possible, and if no half-breeds have occured yet, it's unlikely to happen. Besides, although GW refers to them as 'races', elves and humans are different species, so inter-breeding is unlikely to occur, though not for lack of trying, MrBigMr!

Lamhirh
21-08-2008, 07:04
I think it was someone on the now defunct BI boards that stated that crossbreeding was a no-no in WFRP. Of course there are examples from more reliable (and canonical) sources that seem to indicate that it can in fact happen. Given various hints dropped in the fluff (even up until recently), half-elves "...are not unheard of." They are apparently mentioned in elven lore though it's implied that they are very, very rare. The odds of running into one are further lowered by the fact that most are killed as soon as they are born. IIRC it said that somewhere in the old background. You would exclude them as a PC race for obvious reasons, having 1 for every 500,000 elves sounds about right. If we want to apply RL genetics one good example would be the Savannah cat. It took years to produce the first viable interspecies serval x cat hybrids in captivity. There were problems with mate rejection, miscarriages, too short/long a gestation period etc. Even so, female hybrids are fertile with either species whilst the males are sterile until the 5th generation. If half-elves are your cup of tea WF certainly allows for them, but in extremely limited quantity. As for pleasure slaves never having half-elf children, who says their HE owners don't have them on some sort of birth control ala 'The Elvenbane'? Your know, just to be on the safe side ;)...

MrBigMr
21-08-2008, 15:02
Besides, although GW refers to them as 'races', elves and humans are different species, so inter-breeding is unlikely to occur, though not for lack of trying, MrBigMr!
I know that they're species and not races. But you never know, as genetics are like anything else "**** happens." The moment someone thinks they have all the answers, something totally weird happens that forces everyone to look at the thing again.

But like said, such things have happened, but they're not that common. And how do we know DE pleasure cults, etc. have not produced half-breeds, but seeing how specist everyone is, especially the elves, those kids are probably extracted by force and whacked over a log by their legs. Though who knows. I wouldn't put it past the DE to have some freaky breeding program to produce some spies or something that would be loyal but also pass as the member of the target race. Or something like that.

Astraeos
22-08-2008, 00:00
I I wouldn't put it past the DE to have some freaky breeding program to produce some spies or something that would be loyal but also pass as the member of the target race. Or something like that.

There is so much potential in that idea! Not to mention that there are so many human cultures in the Warhammer world, all a DE half breed has to do is hope his or her ears don't end up too pointy!

Lamhirh
22-08-2008, 07:12
IIRC one half-elf from another setting looked like a fine featured human but her ears gave her heritage away so her father had them cropped. So even if your half-druchii spies inherit the pointy ears of their sires it's nothing a sharp blade can't fix if done early enough...

Astraeos
22-08-2008, 11:44
Good point. Now there's all sorts of scenario, fiction and model ideas springing to mind!

LuciusAR
22-08-2008, 11:46
I think they may well be possible however they are going to be extremely rare. In D&D it’s generally accepted that the main races mingle quite freely so half breeds are both common and accepted. However in the Warhammer worlds most races are much more insular. Remember humans and elves have little or no interaction with each other bar the occasional diplomat or trader. The only place in the Old World were the 2 race mix openly is Marienburg so I imagine half elves to be a bit more common there. Most humans have never even seen a High/Wood Elf and certainly would never have even heard of Dark Elves. You certainly wouldn’t find any in Ulthuan, hence they make no appearance in the fluff or army list.

sideorder_of_chips
25-08-2008, 16:40
Good point. Now there's all sorts of scenario, fiction and model ideas springing to mind!

Name of a novel:
Sub-elf: Life and times of a DE's b***h's offspring.:wtf:

MrBigMr
25-08-2008, 16:55
I've had an idea of a half-Eldar army for 40K as a radical Ordo Xenos project to create brainwashed mutants able to use Eldar weapons and to think like the xenos, but be loyal to their masters. It's suppose to be a sort of Neo Genesos Evangelion spin with the army built around 3 captured Wraithlords.

Condottiere
25-08-2008, 17:17
I would have thought that DE mixed off-spring would be the perfect fodder for the altar.

Revlid
25-08-2008, 22:12
My initial reaction was "God, NO! There's no background supporting it, and the whole smacks of High-Fantasy Mary-Sue material. No way, no how - they're different species entirely, and it's neither GRIMDARK nor blackly humorous to really fit in. It'd be a footnote at best in a world where this would be a huge thing. Leave it the province of ill-informed bards and confused folklore."

Then I thought about it for a bit.

Nope. Still sounds stupid.

Lamhirh
25-08-2008, 23:26
It only sounds as stupid as the writer makes it out to be :eyebrows:. Actually having a few non-Mary-Sue half-elves would add a decidedly darker and realistic tone to the Warhammer setting. It's a given that few would be born of true love affairs and most would be the product of more unsavory unions. If you want a grimdarkian halfbreed a good example of that is 'Topper' from 'Malazan Book of the Fallen' (http://books.google.com/books?id=bsWK9fJUA0oC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=malazan+topper+blood&source=web&ots=nE3WVVP-i4&sig=xwLQjH2cmlfcA_4EfOi5x3owKlc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA35,M1). Heck, even part of the 'Elric' storyline involved not one but two half-Melniboneans. It is interesting to note that Melniboneans belonged to a different species than humanity and could make DE look like rank amateurs in the evil department.

Ethlorien
26-08-2008, 04:34
Malazan Book Of the Fallen

Greatest. Novels. Ever.

Koryphaus
24-09-2008, 01:14
Read the WD article on the Clan Moulder Skaven (I think its that one).. Disturbing stuff there about the forced unions between Humans and elves, dwarves and goblins..

RobC
24-09-2008, 09:32
Forced unions don't necessarily result in offspring; A man can do bad things to animals but that won't result in beastmen.

Have half-breeds in your interpretation of the background if you want. The current (and long-standing) official line is that they don't exist.

MrBigMr
24-09-2008, 10:09
What WD is that in?

Edonil
24-09-2008, 13:03
There was mention of a half-elf in Dragonslayer...granted, considering the dwarf the story was coming from, it's a wee bit suspect

plasticfrog
25-09-2008, 11:28
As mentioned earlier- in the Konrad series of novels- a female half-elf existed.

It may not be canon now, but it did exist.

DarthSte
25-09-2008, 11:49
Jack Yeovils Genevieve mentions them in passing. Mainly in a "she looks like she may have some elf blood" rather than "she definitely has some elf blood"...

Edonil
25-09-2008, 13:56
Oh yeah, now I remember that from Genevieve...don't remember anything about that in Konrad. And, myself, I've always been uncomfortable declaring BL as non-canon, at least for fantasy (rogue trader era stuff for 40k is so far out of whack it's nuts...). After all, fantasy is a lot less 'this has to be this way all the time' than 40k. So, I'm quite comfortable with the idea that halfers don't show up often enough to be included in the game, but that they do exist.

DarthSte
25-09-2008, 15:34
Were they mentioned in WFRP?

MrBigMr
25-09-2008, 15:47
Were they mentioned in WFRP?
Should they be?

But that's the WD with the Skaven baby factory thingy? Dammit, I'm interested now.

ChaosTicket
25-09-2008, 17:09
Partially it's do some races even breed? Orcs have no females now, so it's likely that they breed similarly to 40k Orks.

Do Beastmen breed? I know they are created randomly by mutated humans and Chaos energy, but are there any female Beastmen to Breed?

Humans, Elves, and Dwarfs don't have that similar biologies other than standard things like organs. Otherwise they are entirely different species rather than sub-species.

I don't think there is any way to create Half-breed races, unless you use magic.

Lamhirh
25-09-2008, 18:11
Forced unions don't necessarily result in offspring; A man can do bad things to animals but that won't result in Beastmen.

For some reason I am reminded of Xanth's 'love springs' (http://books.google.com/books?id=bmenZ_SE5TsC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=love+springs+xanth&source=web&ots=-i22RbKItl&sig=xpWQmNzdDUgURgJvDx4xrNseRAs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result)...some pretty bizarre interspecies unions can produce offspring if powerful enough magics (inc. warpstone) are used :eyebrows:. Based on something MvS said anytime chaos is involved genetics, the laws of physics etc. fly right out the window. If it didn't have some degree of success Clan Moulder wouldn't bother performing what is essentially arcane genetic engineering. Heck there is even mention of a HE wizard who had a man-eating plant in his garden that was the result of a similar experiment...


Have half-breeds in your interpretation of the background if you want. The current (and long-standing) official line is that they don't exist.

Actually it's not quite as clear cut as that, because for every 'nay' there is fluff that suggests otherwise. It seems to be left rather ambiguous on purpose, instead of a definitive answer it's more of a 'maybe'. Bill King seems to think they happen (very, VERY rarely) and considering he wrote a lot of the background to begin with I regard his work as more canonical than most anyone else's. Considering the stigma that would be involved I can't imagine a half-elf openly declaring his/her heritage even if it was somewhat obvious. The few that exist would tend to keep a low profile IMO...


Do Beastmen breed? I know they are created randomly by mutated humans and Chaos energy, but are there any female Beastmen to Breed?

They do. If you look at all the fluff you get beastmen in one of three ways:

1. Mutants born to human parents
2. Beastman + beast(wo)man ('beastfolk' would be a better name actually)
3. Beastman + human captive

I don't doubt you might also get some out of human + animal unions where the winds of magic blow strongest. Weird things happen in the wastes...

MrBigMr
25-09-2008, 18:14
Do Beastmen breed? I know they are created randomly by mutated humans and Chaos energy, but are there any female Beastmen to Breed?
Yes. Some novel mentions female beastmen, who are quite timid when compared to the males. But then again, I think it might be just that particular group. I doubt all beastmen are goatpeople. Some might be like hyenas, which have dominant, agressive females.


Humans, Elves, and Dwarfs don't have that similar biologies other than standard things like organs. Otherwise they are entirely different species rather than sub-species.
All were made by the same maker. Ever heard of backwards compatibility?


I don't think there is any way to create Half-breed races, unless you use magic.
Did you know there's a brand of condoms called Magic? Makes what you said rather funny. And contradictory to itself. But mostly funny.

RobC
25-09-2008, 19:42
Bill King seems to think they happen (very, VERY rarely) and considering he wrote a lot of the background to begin with I regard his work as more canonical than most anyone else's.I realise this is very bad form and open to howls of derision, and wouldn't stand up to scrutiny on Wikipedia either, but I base my post not only on what I've read in published material and online, but from the mouth of Rick P himself.

To explain a little more...

Back in the day I was one of a team of wannabe writers on a WFRP supplement that never got commissioned. As part of my research for the book I exchanged emails with Rick Priestley, who is a top gent, very helpful, and always handy with a snarky aside I often took at face value until I realised he was teasing me. However, with half-breeds he was quite clear: he sees them as being a D&D hangover, and worse, not a strong archetype. Rick (and as a result, Warhammer) is very fond of strong, distinct archetypes, and where the lines were once blurred (see half-orcs, gnomes, and plenty of other minor things that got dropped in previous editions), changes were made to make things clearer. If I remember correctly, he said something like "the problem with half-breeds is that they take two good ideas, but result in an idea that's not even half as good."

I happen to agree with him, not least because I always like my fantasy to have at least a basic grounding in reality; and while magic is a get-out card when it comes to reality, Warhammer has always been low-magic, and avoided the worst excesses of generic D&D-style fantasy (endless different races, distinct 'alignments'*, magic being treated as essentially normal, etc.).

Condottiere
27-09-2008, 02:23
I happen to like half-breeds, in very limited quantity, but tend to think of them as somewhat Mary Sueish.

Lamhirh
27-09-2008, 05:31
..."the problem with half-breeds is that they take two good ideas, but result in an idea that's not even half as good."

I actually recall reading something along those lines as well ;). I think the fact that passing references are even allowed in BL novels still keeps it within the realm of possibility, however. It's never stated outright because if word got out half-elves would suddenly outnumber elves and humans :rolleyes:. It's one of those tropes that few authors utilize well, which is where Rick is coming from. If they can't manage that much, then I absolutely agree that it's better to avoid it like the (Mary Sue) plague. You can leave it open to speculation without elaborating further. If they find an author who can write about half-elf characters in a well thought out manner on the otherhand...I would still make them extremely uncommon.


I happen to agree with him, not least because I always like my fantasy to have at least a basic grounding in reality; and while magic is a get-out card when it comes to reality, Warhammer has always been low-magic, and avoided the worst excesses of generic D&D-style fantasy (endless different races, distinct 'alignments'*, magic being treated as essentially normal, etc.).

LOTR is a rather low-magic setting for the most part. Think about the sheer numbers of Edain and Eldar that inhabited Middle Earth, yet only three 1st generation Peredhel were ever mentioned. Three in over five thousand years of history is pretty rare if you ask me. I'd say that Warhammer occupies a middle ground between that, Elric of Melnibone and some high magic AD&D settings. Honestly, some things in Warhammer are so over-the-top it's ridiculous :p! When people start waxing poetic about how much more 'realistic' it is it makes me wince. It's certainly not the grittiest or the most believable fantasy setting I've read about, that's for sure :eyebrows:...

Hellebore
27-09-2008, 06:18
afaik Rick P has said no (as RobC intimated).

I don't really like half breeds, they always struck me as special for the sake of being special. Distinct species makes more sense to me.

It's even clearer in 40k where everyone is an alien. Physical similarity in appearance does NOT make for genetic compatability - sharks and dolphins cannot breed, dogs and cats cannot breed. They look very similar to each other though.

A human has a better chance of reproducing with a crab than he does with an eldar, because at least his genes share a common ancestor with the crab. Apart from which, Xenology depicts eldar DNA as multistranded rather than the standard bi-strand of earth DNA. Which of course makes it impossible to actually CALL it DNA but that doesn't stop people using that acronym to simply mean 'genome'.

So anyway, I don't like it, don't think it's possible and don't think GW does either. The Gilead's Blood storyline was actually pointed out by Marc Gascoigne formerly of BL to say within the text that it's not true and it never was intended to be.

Just as orcs reproduce by spores no longer with female orcs (yes, I said it) neither do they reproduce with humans.

One thing I never got was why you never saw half halflings, gnomes, dwarfs etc. A human half dwarf or gnome is just as realistic as a half elf.

I've been thinking about writing a story where there are two races on the planet, dwarfs and elves, and a new race emerges: Man. From the interbreeding of the two original races (thus man is a bastard hybrid) - combining the male and female archetypes of dwarfs and elves.


Hellebore

MrBigMr
27-09-2008, 06:39
It's even clearer in 40k where everyone is an alien. Physical similarity in appearance does NOT make for genetic compatability - sharks and dolphins cannot breed, dogs and cats cannot breed. They look very similar to each other though.
I think Star Trek has already scrapped the "science trumps magicks in scifi" argument. And what was the reason for it? Oh yeah, they were all made by the same race. If only it was so in 40K too...


I do agree that enforcing a negative stance as a solution to the half-breed question is quite good on GW's part. I don't want the game to look like a game of Munchikin: "I'm a half-elf, half-werewolf detective/wizard..." Yet it'll never stop one from doing it and fiding hints in the background.

Hellebore
27-09-2008, 06:41
But like I said, eldar DNA is 4 stranded, making it impossible for it to combine with human DNA, thus making it impossible to produce human eldar hybrids.

Hellebore

MrBigMr
27-09-2008, 06:52
But like I said, eldar DNA is 4 stranded, making it impossible for it to combine with human DNA, thus making it impossible to produce human eldar hybrids.

Hellebore
The Kroot nor the 'Nids don't seem to have much problems with mixing and matching DNA of anything that has it. Besides, the picture in Xenology seems to indicate Eldar DNA is just 2 double helixes wrapped together. So fitting some good ol' human DNA in there could be possible. Especially if the Eldar DNA is as capable of adapting as I've heard (able to fix itself and "get creative" if needed).

And besides, it has happened before. It's more than what female Marines have ever gotten.

Lamhirh
27-09-2008, 07:23
I don't really like half breeds, they always struck me as special for the sake of being special.

That really has more to do with the skill of the writer, or the lack thereof than the subject matter itself.


Distinct species makes more sense to me.

Yet you do see interspecific hybrids, some intergeneric hybrids and (extremely rare) interfamilial hybrids, so it's not always that simple. Throw in Old One genengineering, 'magic' etc. and things can get downright unnatural...


A human has a better chance of reproducing with a crab than he does with an eldar, because at least his genes share a common ancestor with the crab. Apart from which, Xenology depicts eldar DNA as multistranded rather than the standard bi-strand of earth DNA. Which of course makes it impossible to actually CALL it DNA but that doesn't stop people using that acronym to simply mean 'genome'.

The carbon-fluorine-silicon based Aliens shouldn't 'work' they way they do and neither should Tyranids. Two creatures whose genetic material is carbon based are already more compatible by virtue of chemistry. Interestingly enough exotic DNA variants (inc. base pairs and rung structures) have already been created in laboratories IRL. You would have to have a retroviral like mechanism involved, but it wouldn't be entirely impossible to create something out of seemingly disparate 'alien' organisms either with advanced enough technology and/or a specialized adaptation of course. Without these things however...fat chance :p!


So anyway, I don't like it, don't think it's possible and don't think GW does either...

It does ultimately boil down to personal preference; the main concern that some GW authors seem to have is avoiding literary pitfalls rather than any scientific oversights. I say 'some' because others are perfectly content to string us along...Dan Abnett isn't the only one :eyebrows:.

FYI, 'handwavium' is the most common substance in the 40Kverse and by extension WF as well :D!


One thing I never got was why you never saw half halflings, gnomes, dwarfs etc. A human half dwarf or gnome is just as realistic as a half elf.

I never said they weren't as realistic, I was simply using the most common example available.

ChaosTicket
27-09-2008, 17:41
Yes. Some novel mentions female beastmen, who are quite timid when compared to the males. But then again, I think it might be just that particular group. I doubt all beastmen are goatpeople. Some might be like hyenas, which have dominant, agressive females.


All were made by the same maker. Ever heard of backwards compatibility?


Did you know there's a brand of condoms called Magic? Makes what you said rather funny. And contradictory to itself. But mostly funny.

I ment that unless there was basically Magic-enhanced fertility drugs, or magic was cast to allow any kind in inter-species breeding the races can't mix. The Beastsmen are an example, they were and are created by warping magic, same as skaven, and most monsters. Skaven however can breed as the do have females.

Whether any of the monsters like Beastsmen, Minotaurs, Trolls can breed.

Ogres breed, Skaven breed, humans breed, Elves breed, Dwarves breed, Lizardmen are spawned(I don't know how(no females to fill the pools with spawn). Could they breed together? Not likely as they don't have a base when they were created by the Old Ones. Humans weren't even made by the Old Ones, just an accident, and Skaven were created by the Chaos Gods(teh Horned Rat).

Do Orcs, beastmen, various magical creatures? Some are indentified as breeders like Griffons, Hippogryphs, Dragons, Cold Ones, Horned Ones.

MrBigMr
27-09-2008, 17:53
Humans weren't even made by the Old Ones, just an accident
DoC army book sez on pg. 14:
"It was the Old Ones who brought many of the races of the world into existence: Slann, Elf, Dwarf and Man."

ChaosTicket
27-09-2008, 18:13
I ment that humans growth was an accident. Humans were created shortly before chaos entered the world, so they weren't "guided" like Elves, Dwarfs, and the Lizardmen. Humans have just wung it since inception.

Brother Siccarius
28-09-2008, 10:13
I know that they're species and not races. But you never know, as genetics are like anything else "**** happens." The moment someone thinks they have all the answers, something totally weird happens that forces everyone to look at the thing again.

Holy Ligers, mules, and magic demon powers oh my!

Something tells me that if someone really wanted to create a half-breed it might be possible. The leader of Archaon's Slaaneshi contingent was technically half-demon, having combined with one at some point, rather than just being possessed.

As to half-dwarfs...I'd be afraid of trying to pick a dwarf woman out of a crowd of dwarfs....what happens if you pick wrong?

You know...same goes for elves...

As to where it would likely happen, the Bretonians have a weird affinity with the Wood Elves near their border, so who knows. The Empire is also a very open place, and Snorri from the Gotrek and Felix novels was well known to try picking up a few human women during his travels.

MrBigMr
28-09-2008, 12:03
As to half-dwarfs...I'd be afraid of trying to pick a dwarf woman out of a crowd of dwarfs....what happens if you pick wrong?
Here's a tip: Go for the ones that don't have a hairy face (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060205013&orignav=13).


You know...same goes for elves...
Elven women are superior to human ones, even if they're men.

kikkoman
01-10-2008, 03:19
I'm going to have to write a story now about the tragic love between a dwarf miner and the White Lion who fell in love with her, how their forbidden love bloomed in the battlefield.

Condottiere
01-10-2008, 07:01
Does this go under furry or bestiality?

stormblade
01-10-2008, 07:29
I'm going to have to write a story now about the tragic love between a dwarf miner and the White Lion who fell in love with her, how their forbidden love bloomed in the battlefield.

Really?

then I'm going to write a story about an ogre in love, I'll name it "The Beauty and the Feast "

:evilgrin:

MrBigMr
01-10-2008, 10:52
I would write interspecies stuff if I hadn't already done it.


Does this go under furry or bestiality?
What ever way it swings, you know you'll like it non the less (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/6/2/).

jimbobodoll
01-10-2008, 11:57
Damn... I always thought the old ones created humans by mixing together the juju from elves and dwarves and sprinkling it with sunshine... Not as lithe, but not as fat... not as clean shaven, but not as beardy... Not as good wine producers or beer brewers: just goes to show, never mix your drinks kiddies! ;)

Lamhirh
01-10-2008, 16:18
I'm going to have to write a story now about the tragic love between a dwarf miner and the White Lion who fell in love with her, how their forbidden love bloomed in the battlefield.

A Warhammer version of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JimT0UTQ71U) you mean? I double dare you :D! If there was ever any elf down-to-earth (and hard-drinking) enough to elope with a dwarf lass it would have to be a White Lion :p. Somehow I can't imagine a Dragon Prince of Caledor breaking with tradition to that extent :wtf:...


I would write interspecies stuff if I hadn't already done it.

Not for Warhammer Fantasy you haven't ;)...

Paviel
05-10-2008, 03:37
The Gilead's Blood storyline was actually pointed out by Marc Gascoigne formerly of BL to say within the text that it's not true and it never was intended to be.

Really? I thought the closest the story ever came to implying that Nithrom wasn't Erill's father was on the last page: "I miss my father, though... if father he truly was to me. Certainly I believe that to be so." The fact that the elven blade "felt right" to Erill on page 239 also seems rather suggestive, unless it can be proven that another human ever had such a connection to an elven blade.

So on what page does it explicitly say that Nithrom was not Erill's father?

stormblade
05-10-2008, 16:20
Really? I thought the closest the story ever came to implying that Nithrom wasn't Erill's father was on the last page: "I miss my father, though... if father he truly was to me. Certainly I believe that to be so." The fact that the elven blade "felt right" to Erill on page 239 also seems rather suggestive, unless it can be proven that another human ever had such a connection to an elven blade.

So on what page does it explicitly say that Nithrom was not Erill's father?

Well, most humans that can get their hands on the elven blades tend to stick with them as they are, more often than not, of superior craftsmanship to the blades of man.

Paviel
07-10-2008, 01:54
Yes, but has any other human ever obtained an elven blade according to Warhammer canon? I'm pretty sure, for example, that Felix has a magical sword; is it elven, and does he feel the same way about it that Erill felt about Nithrom's sword?

stormblade
08-10-2008, 10:12
Yes, but has any other human ever obtained an elven blade according to Warhammer canon? I'm pretty sure, for example, that Felix has a magical sword; is it elven, and does he feel the same way about it that Erill felt about Nithrom's sword?

I think that Felixs sword isn't of elven origin.

In "The Guardians of the Forest" (Graham McNeil) there is a hauman who ends up wielding an elven blade.

RobC
08-10-2008, 10:33
Bear in mind that the story is written from the perspective of the narrator. It's entirely possible that his belief that he is a half-elf is implied to be true within the story by mentioning how natural the blade felt in his hand.

Or it could be that Gilead's Blood was written without certain elements of background being made entirely clear to the authors. There are no half-elves in official Warhammer material, only those who think they might be half-elves.