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foreverdancing
15-08-2008, 06:58
Hey, as im sure you guys are aware, in a vamp list you can very easily dump 1500 points on a unit of bloodknights with regen/ward save a hero and a lord with the blood drinker.

I was thinking about ways to defeat this behemoth, as if you ignore it, then you can't really get many points AND it makes for a pretty boring game just stringing along a unit.

Being a vamps player myself, with a forbidden lore lord, i was thinking using dire wolves to leave the flank exposed to a gg unit with a lord with flaming sword cast on her.

Any idea's what other armies could do against this uber unit?

El Haroldo
15-08-2008, 07:09
triple stank. I doubt you're going to see a ranked multi-hero BK unit in under 3k.

Oberon
15-08-2008, 07:26
You might be. We had a tournament of around 50 players around here last weekend, 1750 points per player, and there were blood knight regiment of about 8, and a black knight regiment of 10, not with the same player of course... It is possible, and in points denial it is very effective (in those points at least, who is going to break that?)

Lennart.nevanoja
15-08-2008, 07:35
As a dwarf player i am not so afraid i just use anvil of doom to slow them and a gyrocopter. i also play a VC so i would say that you match them up ageinst a zombie unit from hell and ION them if you play all out magic. But i must admit that they are nasty as hell if used properly. if you played another army with the possibility to charge beat the monster unit or just deny combat.

good luck

Oberon
15-08-2008, 08:04
Indeed. Gunline-dwarves might be in the best position to down the blood knight steamroller. Anvil to slow them down (does not work on black knights though), and flaming stone throwers to thin out the numbers, followed by flaming cannons to snipe the characters. Win in two rounds, GG. Helps, if you dwarves get the first turn (should happen, all guns are deployed at the same time so they have very very few deployment choices), otherwise blood/black knights get way too close for comfort, and multivanheling is dangerous beast to handle...

warlord hack'a
15-08-2008, 09:41
we are talking about a unit of 16 knights, a vamp lord dread knight and blood drinker and a wight BSB with drakenhof banner.

Now the weak spot of this unit is the wight bsb as he has a 3+ save only, but still a T5 and 3 wounds and regeneration. So it's sad that he is the weak spot, imagine the storng spot..However, if he is down, then no regen for the unit anymore..

The best you can do against this unit is first bait it so that a flank is exposed and then hit home in the flank with a character that is very good in close combat, as well as something that negates ranks. Good challengers are: an ogre with tenderizer, or someone with van horstman's, or a svg orc warlord on wyvern with shaga's screaming sword. Then challenge as any bloodknight has to accept it, kill this one knight, make sure you have a lot of overkill and crumble a few knights.

E.g. with my O&G speadfreak list I would bait them with fast cav and then hit a flank with my svg orc warlord with shaga's, kicking boots and enchanted shield mounted on a wyvern and a ginat in the same flank (just the warlord is not enough). Als, my night gobs will move up and release their fanatics, hopefully into the bloodknight unit..

The general will give me 8 ws6 S7 plus 4 ws5 S6 poisoned attacks. This will give me a net score of 2.44 dead knight (bloody regensave). So this will leave the battle a tie (except that the bloody knights have a musician) as they have +2 for banners plus outnumber and I have a flank plus 2.44 kills. However, the giant will tip the battle in my favor, so the knights will lose, some will crumble and they will lose their frenzy!

Next round they can move up some characters after which it is time for my lord to challenge.. I should last some time in a challenge as S 5 is the highest attack they can muster..

still it will be tricky as I need average or better rolls.

but in more general tactics: shoot them and magic them first. Oh no, first bait them and annihilate the remaining 500 points of his army. Then take care of the blood knights.. Yes they have a 4+ ward versus shooting, but since there is nothing else worthwhile to shoot shoot everything in the unit. Then flank them or keep leading them by the nose.

The point is the unit is a lot of points, but is also hard to take out. However, the rest of his army therefore is not, so take those 500-750 points first and then the VC player HAS to come and take out something useful on your side to break even. Yet since theyr are frenzied all they can ever hope to catch agains a decent opponent is one or 2 units of fast cav, flyers or scouts.

In short: you do not have to beat this unit to win, instead he hass to kill you to win. Preventing him from doing that is the key to winning. You get 500 points in kills from him, he gets 200 in kills from you, you have table quarters etc. You win.. Points denial only works when you can score some points yourself..

But if you do want to take them out hit them in the flank with something hard hitting or something that is very well protected, such as dwarven infantry.

warlord hack'a
15-08-2008, 09:46
or better yet: hit the flank with the giant and the rear with a wyvern rider. challenge with the lord, so instead of 5 knights fighting back it will be 0, This will give you 2 more combat res and you have already won even before the giant kicks in.

ROCKY
15-08-2008, 10:02
Well when we were in a 2 vs 2 1200 point game, the saurous player was hammering at the blood knights (charged em with saurous cavalry and foot soldiers) so yeah its doable if u deny them the charge AND if u attack with more than one unit.

Oberon
15-08-2008, 10:03
Only if BK have castellan, do they have to accept challenges, without castellan they can accept but do not have to, and with castellan they must issue challenges themselves. If you challenge, they could refuse, and your ork is not guaranteed a kill even if they accept. With regen banner they lose by one less they normally would, and then get to regen the wounds they do get from losing, so they won't fall *that* fast.

One could also say, that it is a bad player who lets wyvern to rear charge *and* a giant to flank them, one does have some control over BK after all.

KBing the BSB is a good strategy though, if a little luck-based. Worked for me once...

The Clairvoyant
15-08-2008, 10:19
In the above example, the kastellan would not have to auto-issue a challenge as there is another character in the unit with a higher Ld.

I'd also like to point out to any math-hammerers out there that the vamp lord is likely to generate his own extra +1 CR. I know mine always does.

And also, the Wight Lord BSB would also be a 2+ save as he comes with heavy armour and shield with his barded steed. There is no restriction for being BSB and carrying a shield any more in the latest army books.

warlord hack'a
15-08-2008, 11:34
we are talking 1500 points in one unit. I am pretty confident that the opposing player can lead these 1500 points by the nose as the VC will be so horribly outdeployed it will not be fun anymore. Against my speadfrak list the knights will never see combat unless I want them to, against my normal svg orc horde ditto as I have 15 deployment choices in both armies. With 1500 points in one unit he maybe has 4 or 5 deployment choices which means my expensive troops will be as far away from his knights as possible and all he will be facing is fast cav and said giant plus wyvern (if I feel like it). So Oberon, it's not a bad player, it's just a bad idea to make this unit so big and expensive.

And indeed even when flank chagred by a close combat character do the knights not fall fast, which goes to show that they have been made far too powerful. However, putting 16 in a unit is not making optimal use of them. I think a smaller unit is much more effective, if it gets baited at least you ave more army left to do something useful

Chicago Slim
15-08-2008, 12:22
Yep-- feed that unit one small (less than 100 point) unit per turn, starting on turn 2. You give up at most 500 points, you obliterate anything that isn't in his big unit, and you take 3 unanswered table quarters. Repeat until your opponent comes to understand that this is a dead boring build that'll pull a draw against anybody who knows this simple trick, and changes his build...

Yeah, it means you should always build with a half-dozen tiny throwaway units-- but that's seldom wrong...

warlord hack'a
15-08-2008, 13:39
and not every round will his charge sucessfully run you down.. so 5 fast cav units are not needed..

EvC
15-08-2008, 14:28
My Vampire Lady and her unit with Hellfire Banner would meet them in combat. It would be bloody, but I'm confident she would win. 4 attacks 3+ with re-rolls then 2+, -3 armour, no regen. I've killed 6 Bretonnians in one turn before- but there've also been rounds where she's killed none. I'd certainly have to make sure my unit is buffed up the wazoo before going in.

Urgat
15-08-2008, 14:51
Now the weak spot of this unit is the wight bsb as he has a 3+ save only, but still a T5 and 3 wounds and regeneration.

Lol (genuinely)!
That weak point is stronger than anything in my army :p

The idea is to crush a 16 strong unit of bloodknights, right? To destroy it to get the points?
So, with O&G? Well, (assuming the enemy just stands there and let it happen :p) my best bet would be to bait the BK so they show a flank, and "spearchukk" them as long as possible. The problem is the regen. We'gve got zero flaming attack, and no matter the strengh used, that will bump against the regen. I don't think I'd even bother sending anything in melee, I cannot see a single of my units winning, not even my beloved trolls.
Well, to make silly face-offs, I am able to field a unit of 15 trolls, make them river trolls, if someone wants to mathammerize the outcome of that fight (that's by far the strongest thing I can field, and it costs only -!- 900 points) , be my guest, I'm no good for such things. Pretty sure they'd lose badly anyway.

Da GoBBo
15-08-2008, 15:15
You could try and sneak in a couple of 5th edition lv.4 Slann mage Priests? ... yes, and an emperor dragon of said edition. That oughta teach im.

warlord hack'a
15-08-2008, 15:27
urgat, you do not have any giants? You can always have a yell and bawl and kill two whole knights to crumbling, or get into combat with the vamp lord or the wight and hope to get the pick up and stuff/squash/eat things, no amount of armour save or regeneration will help you there..

and yes I was abit synical about the weak spot being the wight king, turns out he has a 2+ save anyway.. Tha regeneration banner on them is just too much, should never have passed playtesting.

But anyway, this bus indeed needs baiting.

okay, some troll mathhammer: assuming you charge him in the flank as he is baited: he's three ranks in total so that is 6 inches. you can fit 5 trolls against that. all 5 vomit, should get you 1 2/3 dead knight after saves. leaves 1 to fight back with 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 0.5 wound after regen. So le't say you win dynamic combat with 1, have a flank and outnumber, but he has banner plus BSB. So you win by 1 only. If you would add a BO big boss BSB with warbanner to the unit you would win by 3. Still the knights are there and next round their characters will move into fightin position (if they were not there in the first place)..

No, giants or baiting, I think those are the only 2 O&G options, combines with shooting with chukkas and smashing with fanatics of course.

theunwantedbeing
15-08-2008, 15:39
The beast cowers.
Stops them right in their tracks and makes them unable to do anything, just make sure they dont get to use van hels as that'll allow them to move.

Failing that, fast cav to get them to persue at funny angles to keep them out of the fight.

Something like a bloodthirster would be useful, bloodthirster plus a bunch of heralds on juggernaughts all with the firestorm blade and re-rolls to hit.
That'll make a mockery of that unit.

Failing that, bring your big rulebook and slam it down on top of the guys unit.
He wont want to play you then.(obviously not the nicest thing to do but he did bring a 1.5k unit to a battle afterall)

Malorian
15-08-2008, 15:43
1500 points? I'm sure I'm sure 30 cairn wraiths could do the trick :evilgrin:

Urgat
15-08-2008, 15:56
urgat, you do not have any giants? You can always have a yell and bawl and kill two whole knights to crumbling, or get into combat with the vamp lord or the wight and hope to get the pick up and stuff/squash/eat things, no amount of armour save or regeneration will help you there..
Yeah, I do have giants, but I don't see one of them last more than a couple turns in melee... Even then, you'd need to be incredibly lucky, and then, goblins could do just as well, if you count on luck :p


okay, some troll mathhammer: assuming you charge him in the flank as he is baited: he's three ranks in total so that is 6 inches. you can fit 5 trolls against that. all 5 vomit, should get you 1 2/3 dead knight after saves. leaves 1 to fight back with 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 0.5 wound after regen. So le't say you win dynamic combat with 1, have a flank and outnumber, but he has banner plus BSB. So you win by 1 only. If you would add a BO big boss BSB with warbanner to the unit you would win by 3. Still the knights are there and next round their characters will move into fightin position (if they were not there in the first place)..

I figured as much ><


No, giants or baiting, I think those are the only 2 O&G options, combines with shooting with chukkas and smashing with fanatics of course.

Fanatics? They don't even cancel saves anymore, so they wound on 4+, then you've got to go through a 4+ save, the ward save and the regeneration. You gotta send a hell of a lot of fanatics, then :p
I stand on my "make them run after the spiders.wolves, and shoot them to death with spear chukkas and doomdivers"... It's both way more efficient, a lot less risky, and a hell of a lot cheaper, in fact. So 6 chukkas, a doomdiver and a couple baiting units, just in case.

Rodman49
15-08-2008, 18:44
Stuff that could wipe that dirty Blood Knight unit - we've seen it in our group.

1. Greater Daemon in the Flank
2. High Elf Prince on Star Dragon in the Flank (Either Kitted or Null Stone)
3. Vaul's Unmaking the Magic Items
4. Beast Cowers the unit
5. Spirit of the Forge the unit
6. Steam Tank on the Flank
7. Multiple Volley Guns
8. Kitted Dwarf Lord - just challenge the characters and kill them.
9. Dark Elf with Dragon on the Flank

etc.

Chicago Slim
16-08-2008, 00:39
I stand on my "make them run after the spiders.wolves, and shoot them to death with spear chukkas and doomdivers"...

Yeah-- add arrer boyz to your list of things to make them run after: they LOOK like a real unit but they're 60 points!

Also, why bother trying to kill that unit? If all they do is pick up a couple of small units, you win everything else!

Da GoBBo
16-08-2008, 00:48
Because it's mighty fun to do so :D

Couldn't you send a couple of assasins at em in the first swoop, soften them up with repeater boltthrowers when that regenerationbanner is gone and finish them off in a last mighty wave when they are just another heavy cav unit on their own?

Urgat
17-08-2008, 11:45
Also, why bother trying to kill that unit? If all they do is pick up a couple of small units, you win everything else!

To teach them :p
Quite honestly, I find wraiths a much more complicated problem to deal with...