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Hellebore
15-08-2008, 14:16
No, not in a 'oh I iz a tolkeen elf and can't die' way.

They've been around for 60 million years, they conquered the galaxy, they could crush suns, they have huge psychic potential.

How exactly in all that time did they not modify their genetics to live for ever? We are told that they used to reincarnate but wouldn't it simply be easier to prevent the body dying in the first place?

Why aren't there genetically perfected eldar?

If a Terran Monkey can alter the human genome to produce monsters, why didn't the eldar?

Is it agains their religion to tamper with their genes?

Hellebore

ChaosTicket
15-08-2008, 14:23
Check yourself.

The Eldar don't screw with their own genes like the Mon-Keigh, they don't mine or destroy worlds for resources, they grow their materials.

the Eldar don't need to do anything as the are incredibly long-lived, almost immortal.

Another thing is that Astartes are modified humans, not a new race. Astartes themselves are sterile, and the only way to make more is for Astartes to die and their Progenoid glands to be used to create more.

Hellebore
15-08-2008, 14:30
In the next hundred years we will be able to make the human race functionally immortal. It isn't actually that hard to do (you just need a functional telomerase gene).

Hellebore

Caelnaethon
15-08-2008, 15:23
Well, we don't (as far as I know) actually have any evidence to say whether the Eldar have a limited lifespan or not. We have the story of ancient Farseers eventually crystalising, but that's a result of too much direct contact with the Infinity Circuit, not their actual age. Individuals like Eldrad and Vect, both of whom are/were apparently over ten thousand years old, indicate that the Eldar have no problem living a long time if they want to, unless they're killed by some outside influence.

There is no particularly clear reason why the Eldar wouldn't fix any flaws in their genetics. A couple of theories (pure speculation):

1) The Craftworld Eldar dedicate themselves to rejecting the lifestyle of instant gratification that led to the Fall. Doing away with aging and other "inevitabilities" of existence would go against that. Age is something they feel they have to put up with.

2) The Eldar were engineered to serve a specific purpose by the Old Ones. The other major race created in this way, the Orks, have such a robust genetic structure that if you mess with it, it messes back. It's not impossible that the Eldar genetic code is somehow built to resist tampering.

3) Most of the Eldar background was written at a time when the idea of stopping all aging with a simply genetic switch would have sounded fairly ridiculous. The writers decided to exercise a little restraint and merely made the Eldar extremely long-lived.

Tarota
15-08-2008, 15:36
They tried it, and it didn't work well? The social consequences in human society would be severe, after all.
They enjoy the journey more than the destination?
The Eldar Gods/Old Ones forbade it?
Reincarnation is viewed as a pleasant vacation, a time of spiritual replenishment before getting back to work?

And I think you need more than a single genetic switch. Teeth only last for so long: you need to trigger new growth at some interval. Do you go through menopause multiple times? Puberty? Do you just keep growing forever, until your skeleton collapses under the strain? I'll agree the research looks promising; I'll even agree with the hundred year time frame. (Actually, I would call that conservative ;) .) I just don't think it'll be "plug in telomerase and go"...

Idaan
15-08-2008, 15:36
Because Marines are and if Eldar were too that would be stealing. Obviously.

More seriously, I don't know. It was all clear before the C'tan retcon: they were all able to reincarnate up until the Fall, so there was no need to modify the genes. Buddhists or other similar cultures don't have such a big fear of death as the Western cultures. Just think what if they knew for sure that reincarnation is scientifically proved fact.
Only when that Nightbringer crap was brought up it stopped making any sense. No matter how long you live, you usually long for more. The Eldar after WiH were pretty much in the same situation as we are: they had no proof that the gods exist or that there is life after death. Technologically they shouldn't have any problems with this, so only option is some religious taboo.

Hellebore
15-08-2008, 15:39
It's always irked me that humanity, ostensibly one of the most barbaric and sucky of races has the only purposfully physically modified troops (not counting the tyranids because of their unique position).

Genetic engineering, artificial organs etc, these are not hard to produce. The Emperor did not do anything that anyone else couldn't do, that we in reality are doing right now.

The only alien race I can think of that is described as having modified troops are the Laer that were destroyed by the Emperor's Children, which is kind of ott when they outnumbered the marines and were engineered to almost the same level. It smacked of 'just because we have primarchs and are marines we win'.

Which leads to another point, one I made a while ago in this forum - the emperor and the primarchs.

These are not freaks of nature, they are purposeful creations. They didn't require a one in a million event to make them (ie they aren't Incredible Hulk unique, one of a kind). One is the gestalt consciousness of Homo Erectus shamans (psykers) and the others are genetically engineered humans with extra organs and warp power, neither of which are unique to them (any psyker can channel the warp, and artifical organs aren't hard to make).

So why are there no Ork Emperors, no Ork Primarchs? Why no Tau space marines etc?

Apart from the obvious 'GW wants humans to be special and unqiue' I can't see any inuniverse reason for the alien races of the galaxy not to create their equivalent of these beings too.

Hellebore

leo_neil316
15-08-2008, 15:48
Humans popped up at random by accident.

Eldar -know for a fact that they were created by all powerful beings- their genome -hasn't mutated at all ever-.

Eldar never saw the -point- in trying.

PondaNagura
15-08-2008, 16:02
well humans can only live a few centuries, if they have the resources that enable that, most have pretty standard lifespans. marines immortality comes with the near-indestructible nature. think of elephants and rats. elephants have a slower birthrate/longer gestation period, also they might only have a few children, and longer lifespans. rats breed like crazy because they're small, prey species, with shorter life expectancy.
humans constantly acknowledge their mortality and make it a goal to lengthen it as possible...its that self-preservation thing that left over from our basic instincts.

eldar for all intents and purposes are pretty much immortal, they live an unrecorded mount of time, they try to stay out of harms way [unless called to war], and only really die in battle. gods in ancient Greece were immortal, yet could be killed.

it probably also has to do with the eldar superiority complex; "why should we tamper with our perfect genes? silly on you monkeigh for even daring to compare a candle to a star".

Neftus
15-08-2008, 16:12
So why are there no Ork Emperors, no Ork Primarchs? Why no Tau space marines etc?

Apart from the obvious 'GW wants humans to be special and unqiue' I can't see any inuniverse reason for the alien races of the galaxy not to create their equivalent of these beings too.

Hellebore
The biggest theme of 40k is the failure of technology as a whole to save mankind, and this is true for most of the other races as well. The Eldar are in a similar boat and do not actively use the most powerful of their technologies because itís what helped cause their fall in the first place (Their technologies did everything for them, even war, and that caused their decadent lifestyles). Thus, the Eldar returned to a primitive perspective on survival, relying on the aspects of their single remaining god to save them instead of their amazing technology. There is no aspect of Khaine or Pheonix Lord that has anything to do with genetic engineering, therefore the Eldar donít use it.

As for the Orks, theyíre totally driven by instinct, so itís obvious why they donít do genetic engineering because itís simply not in their genetics.

Tau could probably come up with something, but theyíre still young and stupid.

The race that would probably be the most into genetic engineering is the Dark Eldar. But, who knows what GW is doing with them.

Tarota
15-08-2008, 16:15
Apart from the obvious 'GW wants humans to be special and unqiue' I can't see any inuniverse reason for the alien races of the galaxy not to create their equivalent of these beings too.
Similarly, there's no reason for any race not to use alien technology, reverse-engineering it if necessary. Even Tyrannid weapons can be reverse engineered in theory, replacing direct neural connection with a firing stud and feeding lines with a food pouch.

I don't think it's just a case of 'GW wants humans to be special and unique'. I think they want every race, or perhaps every army, to be 'special and unique'. We might concentrate on humans, because we identify with them (I hope!), but all the races have weirdnesses that don't quite jibe. The Eldar are a dying race, that attacks enemy battlefleets using eggshells with hammers. Tau are xenophillic and technologically voracious, but we haven't seen much innovation in their kit (Shadowsun excepted, but does anyone think we're going to see XV22 squads released?).

It's all there to keep each army unique, to give it a hook to draw in players. It might not be realistic, but I think it is good storytelling: creating a universe from whole cloth is just too much to take in at once. Give each of the characters a unique hook, and the reader can hold onto that while they try to sort things out. In 40K, each character is an entire race, but the principle still holds.

Ubermensch Commander
15-08-2008, 16:22
Hey Hellebore, my pointy eared eldar questioning and keeping squat fluff alive amigo, check your 2nd edition (and briefly mentioned in the 4th edition book as well) for a reason why the Eldar dont do that whole gene mucking about for immortality business....THEY ALREADY HAD IT!! ahha they just floated in the warp til they were reincarnated. Which i think is a great explanation for how a society would devolve far enough to create Slaanesh. Ya live forever....ya get bored! Hence deeper and dark depravities. anyway back on topic.
With the ability to reincarnate along with their respect for the "natural" order of things, it makes sense that they would not focus on altering their bodies. They might see the body as transitory, a shell as it were, for their spiritual essence. Also, their arrogance might prevent them from gene splicing. Why mess with perfection?=)
That is actually what i love about their aspect warriors. The ultimate martial artist. Discpline and focus to the point that individual achieves superhuman(supereldar?) physical and mental potential. That is awesome. Overcoming limitation and achieving Ubermensch status through sheer appliaction of will without the need of articial chemical(or other) enhancements. Just some thoughts.

FireN.Brimstone
15-08-2008, 16:56
Regarding why only human alter their genes:
- Eldar I don't think they can die of old age, if they do it after 10,000+ years so really, not that much of an issue.
- Orks not only can they no die of old age (as far as I'm aware), they actually get bigger and meaner with age. Besides for what they want to be doing they are already prefect, what’s to alters?
- This leaves the Tau. In a sense, because of the cast system, their bodies are already tailored to their job. More over their all about solving their problems with technology, and probably would think messing with their genes is necessary. As to the short life span, my guess would be the Ethereals want it that way because they'll have a constant supply of freshly indoctrinated people, always young and dynamic, and by the time they might get old enough to see something beyond what the ruling class tells them, they die. Plus I think Ethereals are longer lived than the norm, and they have ways of lengthen the life span of important leaders from other castes.

olmsted
15-08-2008, 17:15
as some one from the diablo game once said

A life extended throug any unnatural means is hell.

immortality is not what its meant to be.

Flying Toaster
15-08-2008, 17:49
Humans popped up at random by accident.




Nah, the Deceiver decided to nuke the dinosaurs so, us, the monkeys would turn into humans then he decided to add the pariah gene in for his uber plan and after manipulated our civlisation for 40,000 years through time till we were ripe for harvesting. Its all coming together now...

Bregalad
15-08-2008, 18:03
In the next hundred years we will be able to make the human race functionally immortal. It isn't actually that hard to do (you just need a functional telomerase gene).

Hellebore
In a hundred years, we will have destroyed our life support system, the biosphere, and all science money will go into the survival of mankind, not in technological immortality. Even a genetically perfect being can't survive without a functioning biosphere.

I also don't get how you can define "genetically perfect". Is it some SciFi dream where all people are blond, slim and beautiful (with white skin of course)? Even if you manage to stabilize the population growth (which is not possible now despite high mortality), is a society of methusalems really desirable? In a Darwinian world, organisms are good enough to survive, not perfect in any boring way.

In addition, I guess that Eldar die out not because of old age, but by violence and war. So genes are not an issue.

Cavalier
15-08-2008, 18:09
eldar for all intents and purposes are pretty much immortal, they live an unrecorded mount of time, they try to stay out of harms way [unless called to war], and only really die in battle. gods in ancient Greece were immortal, yet could be killed.


No, Greek gods were immortal. They could be hurt, but not killed. Prometheus (technically a Titan) had his liver eaten by a giant eagle every day, and it just grew back because he's a god. No Greek god was ever killed in myth.

The Norse gods, however, could die.

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 18:49
In a hundred years, we will have destroyed our life support system, the biosphere, and all science money will go into the survival of mankind, not in technological immortality. Even a genetically perfect being can't survive without a functioning biosphere.


hah, you really believe all of that media?

remember like 10 yrs ago when the media was all over "holes in the ozone layer"? notice how there's no talk of it anymore?
know why? the ozone layer repaired itself.

lack of fossil fuels and the earth is running out? the CEO of shell told the media it's a ruse, that what shell has in holdings right now is enough to keep the entire earth running for another 100 yrs, and they've only started with deep sea drilling, finding abundancies galore... oil that they never knew existed.... now, given that the earth is covered by 75% water, i don't think we'll be running out anytime soon. good thing "fossil fuels" aren't left over dinosaur bones like scientists believed, and that they are made along with magma and such in the earth's core.

if humanity is to kill itself, it won't be because of the biosphere going... it'll be because we've warred with each other till next to no one is left.

PondaNagura
15-08-2008, 19:28
off-topic, briefly and only once:
you don't trust the scientists but you put your faith in a bureaucratic-know-thing? CEOs are number crunchers and penny pushers, they leave the labor for the people who know what they're doing [most of the time]. FF comes form organic matter, not just dinosaurs [there were never enough alone to make all of that]...mostly plants or ancient sea life. and theres a limit to what humans can do in terms of engineering for oil, that it becomes non-cost effective to even try.

on-topic:
as for immortality i doubt that fountain of youth will be found in the next 100 years, it's really not worth it when your cells turn against you and your immunities die down. We know eldar live long long lives, to a point that its not worth counting, because humans will never achieve that...the Emperor doesn't count because he's an alpha-class psyker mutant demi-god.

ARM0R3D ASSASIN
15-08-2008, 19:37
hah, you really believe all of that media?

remember like 10 yrs ago when the media was all over "holes in the ozone layer"? notice how there's no talk of it anymore?
know why? the ozone layer repaired itself.

good thing "fossil fuels" aren't left over dinosaur bones like scientists believed, and that they are made along with magma and such in the earth's core.

r u serious with that? thats crazy wher'ed u hear that?

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 19:53
off-topic, briefly and only once:
you don't trust the scientists but you put your faith in a bureaucratic-know-thing? CEOs are number crunchers and penny pushers, they leave the labor for the people who know what they're doing [most of the time]. FF comes form organic matter, not just dinosaurs [there were never enough alone to make all of that]...mostly plants or ancient sea life. and theres a limit to what humans can do in terms of engineering for oil, that it becomes non-cost effective to even try.

on-topic:
as for immortality i doubt that fountain of youth will be found in the next 100 years, it's really not worth it when your cells turn against you and your immunities die down. We know eldar live long long lives, to a point that its not worth counting, because humans will never achieve that...the Emperor doesn't count because he's an alpha-class psyker mutant demi-god.

offtopic: wouldn't it make more sense for the CEO salesperson to say "omg we're running out, get it now, buy buy buy!" than to tell you, "no worries, there's plenty for the next century at least, oil prices shouldn't be this high".. from a sales point, him saying there's tons means less incoming money if there isn't panic.

oh, and "fossil fuels" were called just that because they contained traces of ancient animal/plant microscopic molecules in them, so scientists thought that's where they came from and named them so. of course they are gonna have bits in them, nothing that's in the ground is 100% pure and untouched. if you struck oil and there was dirt/mud in it because it had been in contact with it, would you call it mud fuel? dirt fuel? use butter, it won't stay pure forever, eventually you'll get the toast crumbs in it, doesn't mean it still wasn't butter before then. is it so hard to believe that a planet like ours which has grown life, grown ITSELF (magma/lava turning into landmasses) could produce it's own oil (maybe that keeps the planet's core burning and reacts with the magma?) to keep from becoming a lifeless rock?
so far fetched? ...ok, so it was dinosaurs then.... riiiiiiiiiiiight.

ontopic: depends on if the fountain of youth is even real. it could end up (and probably is) another fairy tale with no real value. i agree with the statement that eldar these days are too snotty and high on their species to bother with "enhancement". if you think you're perfect, what needs to be changed to perfection?

Rabid Bunny 666
15-08-2008, 19:55
Fossil Fuels from the Mantle? Where'd this nugget of Geology wizz past my studies?

edit; whatwhatwhat?!



oh, and "fossil fuels" were called just that because they contained traces of ancient animal/plant microscopic molecules in them, so scientists thought that's where they came from and named them so. of course they are gonna have bits in them, nothing that's in the ground is 100% pure and untouched. if you struck oil and there was dirt/mud in it because it had been in contact with it, would you call it mud fuel? dirt fuel? use butter, it won't stay pure forever, eventually you'll get the toast crumbs in it, doesn't mean it still wasn't butter before then. is it so hard to believe that a planet like ours which has grown life, grown ITSELF (magma/lava turning into landmasses) could produce it's own oil (maybe that keeps the planet's core burning and reacts with the magma?) to keep from becoming a lifeless rock?
so far fetched? ...ok, so it was dinosaurs then.... riiiiiiiiiiiight.




The Ozone layer is starting to replenish itself though, i'll give you that one.

Back on topic, in Xenology, its mentioned that the Eldar fossil they found had exactly the same genetic makeup as a present day Eldar, despite the millennia between them. Eldar seek balance in acts, hence the paths, the last time the Eldar society seeked perfection in all things this bloody great thing called Slaanesh ate most of their empire.

Tau do genetically engineer in the most basic fashion, by keeping the Castes closed, the smart get smarter due to genetic stock being from "smart" parents. Fire Warriors are limited to mate with others from the Fire Warrior caste, keeping the traits that make them good fighters in the fighting caste.

Orks; they're Genetially engineered warriors to begin with, to paraphrase that Eldar renegade "They're perfect because they don't ask the questions that damned us" (its similar) They don't need to tinker with Genetics, a time consuming process, when they can fight with each other/the enemy and get stronger/tougher.

On the Eldar immortality front, i though they were, but in the Grimdark 40k universe, highly explosive rounds tend to be terminal :evilgrin:

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 20:05
well, seeing as nobody can get down to the planet's core, i guess we won't find out. but i would also like to point out, saturn was found to have "fossil fuels" in the planet itself also. you gonna tell me the dinosaurs roamed that planet too? you do realize that if it's not created in a planet's core, where all planets are roughly the same in terms of having that core (whether they contain life or are now a dead rock), that the ancient animals/plants we have here would need to be on that planet as well to make the "same" kind of fossil fuel.

pluto and neptune have water in the form of icecaps or over hydronated air.
look at mars, it have polar caps of ice.
mercury and venus.... oil.

did you know that scientists believe the sun contains oil as well, and that because of it's massive gravity well, everything is squished so much that it's all fusion reactions between the friction of the oil particles?

interesting... maybe the sun had dinosaurs on it too :O....

Rabid Bunny 666
15-08-2008, 20:12
We can't get dn to the Planet's core, but using data from P and S waves we can work out what its inside is, and its a solid crust at the top, the mantle isn't a liquid, its a semi solution solid (its a bloody big word i forgot :D) followed by the Core mantle boundary, which is melted rocks/ melting rocks/iron followed by an Iron core. Thats an extremely stripped down version of the earth model though.

Also, point of reference, the Methane on Saturn isn't biological in origin.

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 20:17
Also, point of reference, the Methane on Saturn isn't biological in origin.

i'm not talking about the methane gas on the planet's surface. i'm talking about the "fossil fuel" identical in composition to our terran based powerjuice, that was found underneath the surface.

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 20:19
sorry for double post, wanted to add...

there are 2 options for saturn's fuel to have the same composition as ours.
1. dinosaurs and plant life were present on saturn, as well as other planets within our solar system.
2. planets produce their own, as to why it'd be more common amongst various planets to have it.

Rabid Bunny 666
15-08-2008, 20:24
haven't heard about any underground fossil fuels on Saturn, i'll keep my eye out for that.

PondaNagura
15-08-2008, 20:25
wait your talking about abiotic 'oil' that's not the same as "fossil fuels".
fossil fuels are primarily made from dead bio-matter.
abiotics are probably closer to primordial ooze...neither organic or inorganic, but they formed into petroleum-like [well hydrocarbons] substances. the earth might spit them out, but that's not what 'powers' the earths movement...that's a mix of inertia, gravity, friction, and the cosmic forces that flung everything into motion.

who cares about 'oil' on the sun, when it's fusion produces substances we can't even classify; or at least we could harness those nice base-elements to work with, like hydrogen...mmm hydrogen.

yes other planets have base elements found on earth...mostly because they were all products of the fusion of the first-gen stars. like that moby song...'we all made of stars'.

...like the c'tan, who hate the eldar, who lived very long...look back on topic...
seriously talk about this on 'random musings' forum!

edit:
actually scientist found that if you feed a strand of the E. coli bacteria it secrets small amounts of diesel-grade oils. check CNN.
and you kinda did say they 'work the earth' with the 'keeps the core burning and reacts with magma" part.

HereticLosMorte
15-08-2008, 20:32
the "fossil fuel" that is refined for your car, is from that "abiotic oil" and is only impure because of the "fossils" in it, otherwise it would still do the same thing.

i know the earth isn't run on them, that's not what i was getting at, merely saying that they are all part of how the earth works, not that they work the earth :P

work the earth.... like prostitutes..... which remind me of slaanesh... who likes to eat eldar souls... because their lives must be tasty being almost "immortal"..... (yay, i'm back on topic too!) and lookee, it's home time! cya guys later!

Tarota
15-08-2008, 20:32
hah, you really believe all of that media?

remember like 10 yrs ago when the media was all over "holes in the ozone layer"? notice how there's no talk of it anymore?
know why? the ozone layer repaired itself.
Know why? People stopped dumping chlorine compounds into the ozone layer. That part was in the media too... :rolleyes:

Sephiroth
15-08-2008, 20:34
How exactly in all that time did they not modify their genetics to live for ever? We are told that they used to reincarnate but wouldn't it simply be easier to prevent the body dying in the first place?

It's a standard contradiction of GW background: The Eldar were created from the ground up by the Old Ones (going by Xenology), to a degree were its impossible to identify a fossil ancestor. They were created so genetically 'perfect' that like Terran sharks, they've never needed to change or evolve, since their so simplistically perfect. Even their insides had a level of complexity that supposedly stumped any attempt to glean anything but the basics from it.

And yet said lifeform is, for all intents and purposes in game rules, a human analogue. A very fancy, pretty one, but it's roughly on par with a human none-the-less.

You then have an immortal God-Emperor create some demi-god beings from his own flesh and imbuing the warp into them. From this "magic-flesh" (since we can't scientifically grasp the warp), implanted in suitable humans, we get a hybrid between a man and a Primarch - an Astartes.

What it all smacks down to is, the Eldar's background doesn't match up to their abilities. We're told they are a 'perfect' alien race (minus the Fall thing), but we essentially get an advanced human species.

Poseidal
15-08-2008, 20:53
i'm not talking about the methane gas on the planet's surface. i'm talking about the "fossil fuel" identical in composition to our terran based powerjuice, that was found underneath the surface.
What? Saturn is a gas giant: It doesn't have a conventional surface; it's a fluid object.

haven't heard about any underground fossil fuels on Saturn, i'll keep my eye out for that.
Don't hold your breath. There isn't a 'ground' on Saturn for anything to be under.

heretics bane
15-08-2008, 20:55
In addition, I guess that Eldar die out not because of old age, but by violence and war. So genes are not an issue.

And take in to the account we dont kown of any disease's eldar are vunrable to. Humans start to become susceptible to more diseases as we get older.

While the eldar would have a cure for pretty much every disease/alement further lenghting there lifespan and since craftworlds are pretty safe places you less likely to die of an accident or have a high infant mortality rate.

Poseidal
15-08-2008, 21:08
On further inspection, the oil isn't on Saturn but one of it's moons.

Looks like it is abundant in Hydrocarbons. If it's mostly methane though, a lot could escape.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-20080213.html

Cavalier
15-08-2008, 21:35
Just as a little tidbit, the whole "fossil fuels are produced by seismic reactions" thing isn't really accepted in America or Europe, but it's pretty much the official state policy in Russia.

To get out of the off-topic stuff, it may be a lot harder to genetically engineer enhanced lifespans than we think. After all, we haven't done it yet.

sneb
15-08-2008, 21:49
I dont think immortality holds the same importance to us as it does the eldar, as they have an insanely long life span as it is, inceasing an seemingly infinite lifespan seems like a moot point, and that in most cases the craftworld eldar's spirits are kept in an orb, being semi concious after "death".

Idaan
15-08-2008, 22:06
But that's purely from a human perspective. To the Eldar their lifes don's seem long or seemingly infinite, but normal: they don't know other options. And as such, they would naturally desire longer lifes, and strive to make them such.

The contrary would be similar to us humans thinking ourselves long-lived, because mayflies live only two days and 80 years compared to that is nearly eternity.

Sephiroth
15-08-2008, 22:09
I dont think immortality holds the same importance to us as it does the eldar, as they have an insanely long life span as it is, inceasing an seemingly infinite lifespan seems like a moot point, and that in most cases the craftworld eldar's spirits are kept in an orb, being semi concious after "death".

I don't see how the Old Ones would bother with such a race, especially as 'warriors' during the War in Heaven.

We as humans don't want to die because it's in our instincts not to die. We've evolved to avoid it, in the same manner that if you touch a flame, you burn your fingers, and a 'pain' signal is transmitted to your brain; pain = bad.

If the Eldar lacked a sense of self-preservation, they wouldn't have much of a desire to survive as desired in a 'warrior-race'.

But you do raise an interesting point Sneb on if they are almost wholly artificial, has this stunted their self-preservation and desire to reproduce?

Bregalad
15-08-2008, 22:14
1.) I believe that we are seriously damaging our biosphere not because of media hype, but because I professionally work on that topic. The ozone layer problem is a side topic, the main problem is the accelerating destruction of ecosystems and biodiversity, supported by climate change. And both problems are graver than media can currently imagine. The hundred year timeline quote was arbitrary of course.
2.) I agree that Shell can pump up and sell enough fossil fuels to kill two biospheres by climate change. That doesn't help though.
3.) Fossil fuels are called that, because they (including coal) are made of fossils, mostly small marine organisms. No mere seismic action can produce such complex organic materials in that quantity.
4.) A cultural caste system is not genetic engineering. Or would you say that Hindus practice genetic engineering for thousands of years? Taboos are not the same as manipulating some genes in a laboratory. So Tau do not make genetic engineering.
5.) Craftworlds are not safe. Remember Iyanden?

Alcibiades
15-08-2008, 22:19
It's always irked me that humanity, ostensibly one of the most barbaric and sucky of races has the only purposfully physically modified troops (not counting the tyranids because of their unique position).

The Kroot, in addition to the Tyrannid, perform regular physical modifications to their forms and genetics. I don't see what distinction you're drawing between the tyrannic genetic modifications and humanity's.

Tarota
15-08-2008, 22:23
But that's purely from a human perspective. To the Eldar their lifes don's seem long or seemingly infinite, but normal: they don't know other options. And as such, they would naturally desire longer lifes, and strive to make them such.
Indeed, they know no other options. And they know a fact of reincarnation, measured and quantified; rather than the human faith in reincarnation we are familiar with. They're no more likely to desire longer lives, than I am to desire sturdier clothes. Which is to say, some might like them, but some might be just as happy to change outfits more often. There certainly doesn't need to be a uniform racial drive for physical immortality.

Tarota
15-08-2008, 22:38
4.) A cultural caste system is not genetic engineering. Or would you say that Hindus practice genetic engineering for thousands of years? Taboos are not the same as manipulating some genes in a laboratory. So Tau do not make genetic engineering.
Actually, I would say that Hindus have been practicing genetic engineering for thousands of years, just as I say shepherds have been practicing genetic engineering for thousands of years, and farmers have been practicing genetic engineering for thousands of years. I wouldn't vouch for how effective that engineering has been, though... Manipulating genes in a lab is generally going to work faster, but it isn't the only way to modify the genetics of a population. AFAIK no dog breed has ever been created in a lab, but I find it hard to argue that Chihuahuas and Great Danes came from a common ancestor without manipulating their genes.

Also, the Tau go considerably beyond a cultural caste system. You see distinct differences between castes, epitomised by the Air caste which is actually capable of limited flight. (Or was it gliding?) And in modern times, Etherials not only prevent inter-caste mating, but guide/control intra-caste matings as well. I suspect, if the Tau do avoid laboratory genetic engineering, it is for fear of what would be discovered about their genetic past.

ARM0R3D ASSASIN
15-08-2008, 22:46
3.) Fossil fuels are called that, because they (including coal) are made of fossils, mostly small marine organisms. No mere seismic action can produce such complex organic materials in that quant
oil is lighter than water, yes? so how does oil get into those underwater ocean reserves? if theres a crack for an animal to swim into and die n wouldnt water get there before it, causing the oil to rise up? and oils has been found DEEPER than where the deepest fossil was found, and a well in pensilvania has been pumped dry in the late 1800, but by the turn of the centuryit was refilled. hmm i guess that a dinosaur got down there sometime during the 1900's :eyebrows:

oh and in seattle a man by the name of Thomas Gold is trying to get the textbooks changed becuz the "fossils" theory has been disproven.

Bregalad
15-08-2008, 22:47
Engineering comes from engineer and engine, so it means technically manipulationg things. Genetically engineering is manipulating genes by technical means, in a laboratory. Breeding changes the gene pool, but does not manipulate genes themselves. Chosing your girl friend is not engineering either ;)
And the Tau caste differences developed naturally, not by engineering (with the possible exception of the ethereals, who according to ONE very controversial Xenology theory were genetically manipulated by Eldar, not Tau).


oil is lighter than water, yes? so how does oil get into those underwater ocean reserves? if theres a crack for an animal to swim into and die n wouldnt water get there before it, causing the oil to rise up? and oils has been found DEEPER than where the deepest fossil was found, and a well in pensilvania has been pumped dry in the late 1800, but by the turn of the centuryit was refilled. hmm i guess that a dinosaur got down there sometime during the 1900's :eyebrows:

oh and in seattle a man by the name of Thomas Gold is trying to get the textbooks changed becuz the "fossils" theory has been disproven.
1.) Oil is in underwater ocean reserves because plancton sank to the ocean floor, got covered by debris, then transformed anaerobe to oil, so basically because it originated there millions of years ago.
2.) Oil is a fluid, so can refill an empty reservoir given time. If you suck dry a well, it also eventually refills.
3.) There are other Americans trying to get textbooks changed because they don't believe in fossils at all :rolleyes:

heretics bane
15-08-2008, 23:09
1.) 5.) Craftworlds are not safe. Remember Iyanden?


A tendril of hive fleet kraken or somehting or other hit it its not like that happens every day.

Cool he do climate research? wouldnt mind have a chat with you about that some time.

Brother Siccarius
15-08-2008, 23:14
It's always irked me that humanity, ostensibly one of the most barbaric and sucky of races has the only purposfully physically modified troops (not counting the tyranids because of their unique position).

Genetic engineering, artificial organs etc, these are not hard to produce. The Emperor did not do anything that anyone else couldn't do, that we in reality are doing right now.

The only alien race I can think of that is described as having modified troops are the Laer that were destroyed by the Emperor's Children, which is kind of ott when they outnumbered the marines and were engineered to almost the same level. It smacked of 'just because we have primarchs and are marines we win'.

Which leads to another point, one I made a while ago in this forum - the emperor and the primarchs.

These are not freaks of nature, they are purposeful creations. They didn't require a one in a million event to make them (ie they aren't Incredible Hulk unique, one of a kind). One is the gestalt consciousness of Homo Erectus shamans (psykers) and the others are genetically engineered humans with extra organs and warp power, neither of which are unique to them (any psyker can channel the warp, and artifical organs aren't hard to make).

So why are there no Ork Emperors, no Ork Primarchs? Why no Tau space marines etc?

Apart from the obvious 'GW wants humans to be special and unqiue' I can't see any inuniverse reason for the alien races of the galaxy not to create their equivalent of these beings too.

Hellebore

Errr, they do have genetically modified warriors. Orks are genetically modified warriors in themselves. Tau are the creation of Millenia of carefully controlled mating and genetics. Tyranids, yeah, don't even need to touch that. Dark Eldar, plenty of genetic engineering and research built in there as torture, or for the dark eldar, pleasure.

Why no Tau Space Marines? Because they don't fit the Tau's ethos and way of fighting a war. Why no ork Emperors? There are, specifically one, Ghazghkull is to the Orks what the Emperor was/is to humans, though, just like the Emperor, he doesn't command respect just by existing, he has to actually go forth and conquer other tribes to collect them.

The reason the other races don't use the same methods that humans do is because it doesn't always fit their reasoning. Why are aliens different than humans? Because they're alien in both body and mind, and they don't fit our reasoning of why they should do things.

The Eldar are essentially immortal in that they can maintain their sentience for practically ever, if not through body then through the use of waystones and their technology which is essentially built upon keeping them sentient and cognizant as long as possible and protecting their souls. Which fits their way of being much more than some bulky, un-subtle, genetic monstrosity (ie. Space Marines).

Tarota
16-08-2008, 02:55
Chosing your girl friend is not engineering either ;)
Sez you! :p :)

Honestly though, most of the "genetic engineering" done to date hasn't created genes either. It has taken genes from one organism and added them to another genome. It has done so in a more certain way than cross-breeding, and often from species so ludicrously far apart that cross-breeding would be impossible, but (usually) no genes are created independently.


And the Tau caste differences developed naturally, not by engineering (with the possible exception of the ethereals, who according to ONE very controversial Xenology theory were genetically manipulated by Eldar, not Tau).
I don't find it all that controversial. In 6000 years, a plains-dwelling species migrates to the mountain tops and develops the ability to fly, without losing either sentience or their hands? The species splits into four (or five) sub-species with very distinctive features, while remaining in physical proximity and retaining the ability to crossbreed? The Tau lifespan may be shorter than the human one, but it isn't that much shorter.

No, I'm pretty sure they were manipulated in some way. It might not have been the Eldar; even the Xenology story could be explained by the Eldar trading their...guest to whoever actually did the manipulation. I'll admit this is never explicitly stated, but I just don't see any other way to tie it together.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 03:23
What are you talking about? Eldar do live forever, it's just their bodies that don't.


Chosing your girl friend is not engineering either ;)
Until they come up with robot girlfriends.


The reason the other races don't use the same methods that humans do is because it doesn't always fit their reasoning. Why are aliens different than humans? Because they're alien in both body and mind, and they don't fit our reasoning of why they should do things.
I agree. I mean I want to know why no human Greater Good? Why no human Aspect Warriors? Why no human mass production hover tanks? Why no human S5 standard issue weapons? Why no human Waaagh!? Why can't we all just get along?

Those are about as good questions as why aliens don't do human things.

Hellebore
16-08-2008, 03:45
There is a difference between alien thinking and coming to the same conclusion.

Just because aliens think differently doesn't mean they are stupid. If engineered soldiers are BETTER than other soldiers, why wouldn't you make them?

The eldar have proven their curiosity. They spent millions of years developing the ability to turn inhospitable planets into edens. They spent millions of years perfecting psycho-reactive plastics that work in a very similar manner to living tissue. Yet in all that time they never once turned their minds to seeing how their own body's functioned?!

That is clutching at straws in my opinion. They were portrayed as an intensely curious race, a curiosity that eventually led them to perversion and excess. Their development is never shown to be that different from humanity's. Sure they don't have the same tech base, but the way they went about building it isn't any different from any other alien. It would be ridiculous to believe that in all that time, with all that curiosity and ability that not even ONE eldar decided to play with genes.

The 'too alien to understand' line is the excuse BL uses to refuse to write books from the perspective of alien races.

Unfortunately for GW they just didn't describe their aliens as particularly alien. An eldar thinks and feels just like a human, albiet to a 'higher' degree (this is the given difference, an eldar simply emotes more dramatically than a human. This really doesn't make them very different).

The tau are pragmatic and build whatever is needed to further the greater good. Their science endeavours are portrayed no differently to modern human research.

As for the orks, I left them out because they started out as a genetically engineered warrior race. However, we don't see an maddocs trying to engineer a better ork. The closest we get is That old Renegade Runt Master that bred supergrotz.

GW have not described the psychologies of their aliens as particularly alien at all. They've simply taken extrme parts of real human psychology and applied them wholesale to a single species. This is how all aliens are created simply because humans cannot imagine something outside their sphere of experience (as all our imaginings are based on the stimuli we receive from our environment).

The greater good is merely an idea positied by HUMAN philosophers for years. It's not an inherently alien concept. Aspect Warriors are versions of kung fu fighting styles/shaolin temple techniques etc.

ALL of the stuff aliens use in 40k is derrived from realworld human concepts.

Thus, they already DO exist amongst humanity.

Hellebore

Brother Siccarius
16-08-2008, 07:37
There is a difference between alien thinking and coming to the same conclusion.

Just because aliens think differently doesn't mean they are stupid. If engineered soldiers are BETTER than other soldiers, why wouldn't you make them?
If cloned DNA or cells can stop Parkinson's, why don't they do it? Because at this current time it's not within the ethos (or psychology, beliefs, sociology, or philosophy, whatever you like) of our race in general. There are those who do have it as part of their ethos, but they're/we're not the entirety of our race.

The line of thinking you're following has proven very dangerous to humanity in the past, and I doubt any race, fictional or otherwise, would undertake it lightly. The Emperor himself didn't do so until he realized it's necessity, otherwise, why not do it from the start?

It was said that "We should not allow our soldiers to become stronger than our people, lest they grow to fond for them and becomes beasts"


The eldar have proven their curiosity. They spent millions of years developing the ability to turn inhospitable planets into edens. They spent millions of years perfecting psycho-reactive plastics that work in a very similar manner to living tissue. Yet in all that time they never once turned their minds to seeing how their own body's functioned?!
Oh, they did. It's just that their interest in seeing the insides of each other led to a chaos god being born and the ultimate destruction of their race. As the Dark Eldar prove, the Eldar have a very good understanding of their biology. I'm certain that craftworld eldar have physicians and people who both know and understand their physiology, and certainly they seem to have the ability to create replacements or "augmetics" from their wraithbone technology.


That is clutching at straws in my opinion. They were portrayed as an intensely curious race, a curiosity that eventually led them to perversion and excess. Their development is never shown to be that different from humanity's. Sure they don't have the same tech base, but the way they went about building it isn't any different from any other alien. It would be ridiculous to believe that in all that time, with all that curiosity and ability that not even ONE eldar decided to play with genes.
I'm sure there has been an eldar to play with the genes, however, the Eldar don't just play the crude game of "stick an organ there and here". Their entire race and culture is about letting things grow and blossom with as few of nudges in the "right" direction as possible. It's their survival guide in guiding the events of the future, and it shows itself again in their architecture.


The 'too alien to understand' line is the excuse BL uses to refuse to write books from the perspective of alien races.

I never said they were too alien to understand, but that they were too alien to be subjected to the "why's and where-fors" thought processes of humanity. Certainly you'd be able to understand them if you tried to think outside the (humanity) box.



The tau are pragmatic and build whatever is needed to further the greater good. Their science endeavours are portrayed no differently to modern human research.

With the exception of their social pathos. Balance is the key to their society, should one caste grow stronger than the other, the civilization falls apart. They do not need the supermen of the Astartes, because their tactics do not involve being close enough to need super strength, to be able to spit acid, or any of the other genetic enhancements necessary to classify a being as a space marine. As to the Armor, they already have the superior of that, as well as the superior strength of ranged weapons.


As for the orks, I left them out because they started out as a genetically engineered warrior race. However, we don't see an maddocs trying to engineer a better ork. The closest we get is That old Renegade Runt Master that bred supergrotz.

Actually we see more tinkering with genetics and augmetics in the orkoid species than in any other species save the Tyranids. The orks, capable of accepting any implant or donated tissue from another ork, are often caught unawares by any mad dok with some spare seconds on his hands and a pet project (of course, having a mad dok's pet attached to you can be bad for your health).



GW have not described the psychologies of their aliens as particularly alien at all. They've simply taken extrme parts of real human psychology and applied them wholesale to a single species. This is how all aliens are created simply because humans cannot imagine something outside their sphere of experience (as all our imaginings are based on the stimuli we receive from our environment).

I beg to differ, Orks and Tyranids are quite alien in their psychology. Races that neither praise nor care for deep thought is entirely alien to humanity. It's an often confused subject that just because an alien being has some similar concepts to our own, that they are any less alien and more human.


[/quote]
The greater good is merely an idea positied by HUMAN philosophers for years. It's not an inherently alien concept. Aspect Warriors are versions of kung fu fighting styles/shaolin temple techniques etc.

ALL of the stuff aliens use in 40k is derrived from realworld human concepts.

Thus, they already DO exist amongst humanity.

Hellebore[/QUOTE]

Tau are almost entirely alien, just on the face of things, being able to give up freedoms and choices to join together in a society such as theirs. The fact that they've succeeded where humanity has failed is proof of concept to their alien-ism. Even though their society itself is based off of a human concept, their successful prosecution of it in light of our own failure, makes them no less alien.

As derived from human concepts as it is, the fact is, that, while the concept was thought of by us, we have proven that human nature precludes us from accomplishing it with any degree of success. Certainly there has been a high toll in human lives given up to that point.

olmsted
16-08-2008, 07:38
.... maybe people just dont want to be immortal.... i know i wouldnt. people are meant to die. when people dont die..... horrible things begin to happen.

Poseidal
16-08-2008, 07:54
You could say that perhaps they [other races] do [enhance their soldiers] and marines are just over represented in the rules.

In RT, Power Armour was 4+ and Marines were S and T 3.

The_Warsmith
16-08-2008, 08:34
as for the tau i think they do genetically engineer organs and stuff like that for wounded fire warriors maybe but personally i think as a young naive race they still have a few moral and ethical barriers to cross before they reach 'Tau Astartes'

Splog
16-08-2008, 09:31
I recall several years ago reading an article about how a bunch of statisticians had worked out / guesstimated that if humans were functionally immortal, they would have a mean lifespan of a little over 1,000 years. This figure was derived from death rates from accidents, disease, violence, etc. Obviously for the Eldar with different physiology, society, technology, and hordes of angry aliens trying to kill them this figure will be different. But, it could be that Eldar are immortal, or "immortal enough" given their expected lifespan, already.

Chilltouch
16-08-2008, 10:18
The biggest theme of 40k is the failure of technology as a whole to save mankind, and this is true for most of the other races as well. The Eldar are in a similar boat and do not actively use the most powerful of their technologies because itís what helped cause their fall in the first place (Their technologies did everything for them, even war, and that caused their decadent lifestyles). Thus, the Eldar returned to a primitive perspective on survival, relying on the aspects of their single remaining god to save them instead of their amazing technology. There is no aspect of Khaine or Pheonix Lord that has anything to do with genetic engineering, therefore the Eldar donít use it.

As for the Orks, theyíre totally driven by instinct, so itís obvious why they donít do genetic engineering because itís simply not in their genetics.

Tau could probably come up with something, but theyíre still young and stupid.

The race that would probably be the most into genetic engineering is the Dark Eldar. But, who knows what GW is doing with them.

Close, but no cigar.
The Eldar rely on a strange, almost primitive system. The Paths. One of the Eldar can only walk a single Path at a time, but there are probably more Paths than we know. The Path of the Warrior is one, the Path of Command or something similar for the Autarch I think, the Path of the Outcast is another, the Path of the Seer too, there's probably a Path of the Artist, a Path of the Craftsman and so on. Thing is, Eldar can become trapped on any of these paths and absolutely perfect them. Eldar seem to last longer when they reach this stage of perfection - Exarchs, Farseers, Autarchs, they all seem to live for longer periods of time than the rest of the Eldar.

Bregalad
16-08-2008, 10:56
IIRC the Eldar were created directly by the Old Ones to fight the C'tan. And who are you to say that the Old Ones produced genetic junk? ;)
Perhaps the Eldar are happy with their "God-given" body and don't want to argue with the Old Ones.

Lothlanathorian
16-08-2008, 16:58
Okay, I didn't see it in here, so here is my answer for why Eldar aren't immortal: Thermodynamics. I don't know how or why, but, well, it seems to be everyone else's argument against anything in 40K, so thermodynamics is the leading cause of death in the Eldar. If that doesn't make sense, then shut up:p

DapperAnarchist
16-08-2008, 17:18
Iyanden isn't proof that Craftworlds aren't safe, just that they can fail sometimes - that meaning their not safe is like a plane crash meaning air travel isn't safe (it is. very.).

Where does it say eldar aren't immortal? They die in battle. Farseers turn to crystal, but seem to keep going. Even a dead eldar can come back... We don't know anything about the old age of eldar.

Sceleris82
16-08-2008, 17:37
I think its impossible to turn immortal. Forexample Nurgle is all about decay being invertible. Hell the necrons the most advanced race ever tried to do it. Only solution was being turned into a robot.
Maybe the reason for the other races not making space marienes is due to their body not being able to be modified in the way orcs and humans are. Forexample im pretty sure if the nercons could have increased their lifespan with gene stuff they would have done it.

Adra
16-08-2008, 18:17
Queen said it best...

Who wants to live forever,
Who wants to live forever,
Who dares to love forever,
When love must die

Brother Siccarius
16-08-2008, 18:37
IIRC the Eldar were created directly by the Old Ones to fight the C'tan. And who are you to say that the Old Ones produced genetic junk? ;)
Not quite, the eldar were mentioned as one of the races that was envied by the Necrotyr before their transformation. They envied the long, and near endless lives of the Old One's creations.

Perhaps the Eldar are happy with their "God-given" body and don't want to argue with the Old Ones.
Too true. Some people just don't want to live forever.

Iracundus
16-08-2008, 18:50
Not quite, the eldar were mentioned as one of the races that was envied by the Necrotyr before their transformation. They envied the long, and near endless lives of the Old One's creations.

Incorrect. The Necron Codex said the Necrontyr envied the Old Ones. It did not say they envied the Eldar or the Old One creations.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 22:33
How can the Necrontyr have envied something that wasn't created until they were turned into Necrons?

DarkMatter2
17-08-2008, 00:44
Maybe the Eldar are genetically engineered NOT to genetically engineer themselves?

Hellebore
17-08-2008, 00:59
Iyanden isn't proof that Craftworlds aren't safe, just that they can fail sometimes - that meaning their not safe is like a plane crash meaning air travel isn't safe (it is. very.).

Where does it say eldar aren't immortal? They die in battle. Farseers turn to crystal, but seem to keep going. Even a dead eldar can come back... We don't know anything about the old age of eldar.

Their soul may keep going but their body doesn't and once dead the soul is no longer as potent as it used to be (souls see everything in a dreamscape and are a little more 'airyfairy' than living people).

The background describes eldar lifespans as ~1000 years iirc (I don't have my 2nd ed eldar codex on me, but I'm pretty certain it says it in the section on eldar physiology etc ~pg10 if anyone could look it would be appreciated).


Hellebore

MrBigMr
17-08-2008, 01:02
Maybe it's part of their evolutionary sterilisation. I mean, they haven't evolved a bit in 65 000 000 years. I don't know much about the Eldar, but aren't WHFB elves immune to Chaos mutations? So they won't get tentacles or anything like that. Though the possessed Eldar in the Canadian Medusa V campaign was mutated, but it could be the result of the possession (a GD will play with your body whether you wanted or not), rather than any biological manipulation over time.

Who knows.

Iracundus
17-08-2008, 01:57
The background describes eldar lifespans as ~1000 years iirc (I don't have my 2nd ed eldar codex on me, but I'm pretty certain it says it in the section on eldar physiology etc ~pg10 if anyone could look it would be appreciated).

Hellebore

It is repeated verbatim on p. 3 of the latest Eldar Codex.

Hellebore
17-08-2008, 01:59
It is repeated verbatim on p. 3 of the latest Eldar Codex.

It is? I knew it the new codex repeated most of the 2nd ed one, but for some reason thought that particular point had not been put in it.

Well there we go, modern codex evidence.

Hellebore

Brother Siccarius
17-08-2008, 06:28
Incorrect. The Necron Codex said the Necrontyr envied the Old Ones. It did not say they envied the Eldar or the Old One creations.

<---good on ethereal and psychological topics, terrible on straight facts.

I stand corrected.