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Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-08-2008, 11:04
Right, time for an open, honest question, to which your opinion and observance mean you have the correct answer. Huzzah!

This is inspired by two threads, one in Sci-Fi Games General, and one here, about GW and the coming recession.

Now, the Recession thread has a comment that of all TTWG Manufacturers, GW stands the best chance of surviving a recession relatively intact due to market share. Pop into the thread and read post #20 for the complete picture.

And, in the AT-43 performance thread, there seems to be wildly different opinions as to the state of AT-43, Warmachine etc in seperate areas....

Now, sadly, I cannot really comment on this, as I live in GW dominated Britain, and have to go up to London to find an Indie, something which I don't do often enough to see any ebb and flow in gaming trends.

So, the question I put to you is.....

'Have you, in your area (please feel free to state where!) been witness to a shift in popularity between different games. And if you have, how fickle are the gamers loyalties? Is it a case of flavour of the month, or just different gamers settling into different niches?'

Now, critical thing here, although in Other GW, this thread is about a comparisson between GW's fortunes and it's competitors. It's a general question about the hobby as a whole. Perhaps Flames of War has died off as AT-43 took hold. Perhaps Hordes caused a Warmachine resurgence which ate into Rackham's player base. Or perhaps 5th Ed has seen more player take up other games, for whatever reason!

So, key points here....your opinion, for once, is fact. The thread is not intended as a GW VS X affair. And as ever, keep it friendly, and try not to decry other peoples experiences.

snurl
16-08-2008, 11:13
Games have been coming and going for years in central Pennsylvania.
I remember the store being loaded with Kyromek, Battleground, Fantasy Wars, Leviathan, to name a few. RPGs seem to be faddish as well, but I don't pay too much attention to them anymore.
The prize for the fastest gamut from new fad to bargain bin had to be Hundred Kingdoms. It went from new release tournaments to zero in about 9 months.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-08-2008, 11:19
So what's happening in your neck of the woods at the moment?

snurl
16-08-2008, 11:24
The store seems to have an abundance of Flames of War, it's been there since early last year, no sign of slowing down yet.
While the rules seem a bit on the too simple side, I am glad to see an interest being re-generated in historical gaming.

GW games still seem to be selling pretty well too.

Darkmaw
16-08-2008, 11:54
HI, in Singapore, from what i can see, there has been a steady decline of warhammer fantasy players as the players dropped out from various real life committments. (I have played WHFB for past 10 yrs). There has been lack of newblood to the warhammer players pool while for the 40k side, this has been steadily increasing. The 40k players outnumber the fantasy players. As a guide, the most recent tournament organised saw a turnout of 12 WHFB players compared to 24 40k players.

Flames of war is also being played here with a fair amount of players, mostly people also playing 40k. Hordes and Warmachine are also popular.

But strangely most people who play FOW/Hordes/WM tend to play 40K too, while majority of WHFB players play only WHFB.

Reaver83
16-08-2008, 11:55
Again living in britain there's pretty much GW domination, though a few people are now playing FOW at a local club i've been told.

Templar Ben
16-08-2008, 12:17
I don't know any 40k players that don't also play another game. Here (Germantown, TN) the biggest by far would be Star Wars Battles. Most of the players I have seen have armies that would fill a table if they didn't use 10 minis at a time in a game. I know that when kids go into the friendly store (instead of the GW bunker) the owner generally doesn't try to push GW even though he has some in stock. Instead he just tells the kids how much everything costs and what needs to be done. When you can pick up a D&D booster for $12 and play in about 15 seconds that is different than buying a $30 Space Marine box and then spending hours glueing and painting. His big thing with GW is really you tell him what you want and he orders it for you and gives you a discount. He gets a fair bit of traffic from GW players that are just looking for a discount and they then go to the Bunker to play because in the store people would prefer to play D&D or Star Wars.

Hero Clix is big at the Hobby Store (younger crowd) and you also see a lot of Star Wars there but almost no D&D. There was a lot of Warmachine but the WM/Hordes players moved to playing at Barnes and Noble because of the Starbucks. That forced out the D&D mini players and they picked of Star Wars for the most part with about 25% picking up Hordes.

There is a gaming group in area (formal GW one) but they don't just play at the bunker anymore as a new store opened up in North Mississippi. I have seen that they talk about other games now that they play at the Depot. Maybe Memphis Mark can say if there is any change in that crew. I will only comment on the part I know about.

Spoke to a couple of game store owners in my old college town. Apparently GW there has not been selling and people are picking up Warmachine. Hordes is not selling either and no one will touch pirates. There is no Monsterpocalypse buzz to speak of and so they have both said they don't know that they will both ordering.

Flames of War is not really changing that I have seen. Not growing and not shrinking.

stonehorse
16-08-2008, 13:06
Here in Leeds at the Leeds Night Owls club, Warmachine/Hordes, and Flames of War are very popular... sometimes it is rare we see one of the three core GW games being played. The club is a big club, we have 2 floors, at a push we can have 12 6' by 4' tables... so it is quite a big club.

With the new edition of 40K there have been a few more games of 40K.

Four/Five years ago the club was strong hold of GW games, a few people brought along the Warmachine Prime book... and within a month 9 regulars had Warmachine armies (me included), at this point we were called the Heretics. Fast Forward a few years and those who have bought the Warmachine armies branch out into other non-GW games. Flames of War also had the same affect on the club, a lot of the Warhammer players were big fans of Warhammer Historic games, so were after a more realistic game based on history.

We the original heretics are no longer called such, as nearly every regular plays non-GW games. The club does have a 'Bring it and we'll play it' attitude, so it is easy for any game system to get a look in, which may be a big factor in the conversion from pure GW games, to all games.

As I said earlier, 40K is going through a peak of popularity, I have a feeling that this may last longer as the 5th edition is a much better edition.

Warhammer and LOTR go through phases of popularity, one regular will start a campaign, and this snowballs. Then it will die down in popularity for a while.

Gaebriel
16-08-2008, 13:15
In the open (private gaming groups not included), we only have two major scenes here - GW (Warhammer and 40k, next to no LotR or Specialist Games), and Flames of War in the historical sector - FoW is going really strong, and some of the players played GW before, and not much GW now - but I'm not in it enough to say they quit GW for FoW.

Other than that those who play GW are not really into other games. I know of about a dozen who quit GW, and all but two stopped wargaming in general - the other two went into historicals.

There has to be some Rakham/Confrontation/what's it called-players here, as our local indie has a lot of Rakham stuff, but nothing apart from that.

So basically a lot of GW, with most of the players not interested in other systems, and stopping when leaving GW. No major shift between the two most popular systems. And no impression of "trends", people seem very stable in their chosen systems.

sephiroth87
17-08-2008, 04:53
I don't know any 40k players that don't also play another game. Here (Germantown, TN) the biggest by far would be Star Wars Battles. Most of the players I have seen have armies that would fill a table if they didn't use 10 minis at a time in a game. I know that when kids go into the friendly store (instead of the GW bunker) the owner generally doesn't try to push GW even though he has some in stock. Instead he just tells the kids how much everything costs and what needs to be done. When you can pick up a D&D booster for $12 and play in about 15 seconds that is different than buying a $30 Space Marine box and then spending hours glueing and painting. His big thing with GW is really you tell him what you want and he orders it for you and gives you a discount. He gets a fair bit of traffic from GW players that are just looking for a discount and they then go to the Bunker to play because in the store people would prefer to play D&D or Star Wars.

Hero Clix is big at the Hobby Store (younger crowd) and you also see a lot of Star Wars there but almost no D&D. There was a lot of Warmachine but the WM/Hordes players moved to playing at Barnes and Noble because of the Starbucks. That forced out the D&D mini players and they picked of Star Wars for the most part with about 25% picking up Hordes.

There is a gaming group in area (formal GW one) but they don't just play at the bunker anymore as a new store opened up in North Mississippi. I have seen that they talk about other games now that they play at the Depot. Maybe Memphis Mark can say if there is any change in that crew. I will only comment on the part I know about.

Spoke to a couple of game store owners in my old college town. Apparently GW there has not been selling and people are picking up Warmachine. Hordes is not selling either and no one will touch pirates. There is no Monsterpocalypse buzz to speak of and so they have both said they don't know that they will both ordering.

Flames of War is not really changing that I have seen. Not growing and not shrinking.

Where is Germantown? I'm from Murfreesboro, TN.

Our local store is generally fueled by 40k and Heroclix, although warmachine has really grown lately.

DarknessDawns
17-08-2008, 05:37
down my way (australia) it seems taht GW is always played, kind of a main game but branches pop up and the like, iv played D&D(3.5, 4th seems too much like WOW) and warhammer consistantly while played other, smaller side games, and that seems apart from D&D to be the trend.

Ward.
17-08-2008, 06:44
In my local area we get a lot of warhammer fantasy with some flames of war on the side every few weeks. strangely no one plays 40k (apart from cities of death any more) although I suspect that's changed since 5th edition came out.

nanktank
17-08-2008, 06:52
I have been all around australia, and have been playing for about 15 years, when I first started WHFB WH40K, and Space Marine were the most popular, what are now refered to as "specialist" games where also all the rage then came Lord of the Rings and the gaming community became polarised between that and WH40K, now that specialist games arent as accessible anymore and the Lord of the Rings ninja turtle, pokemon like craze is over people generally play a lot of 40k with the veterans getting into flames of war.

DarknessDawns
17-08-2008, 07:00
what is flames of war?

tassiewargamer
17-08-2008, 07:10
OMG you don't know what Flames of war is..:eek:

Well its a ww2 game made by a New Zealand games comapny called battle front.

Nephilim of Sin
17-08-2008, 07:42
Ooooh, rant time (aka "I hate my little small town that thinks it is a big town, but is not :mad:....:cries:). We have two LGS here in Knoxville were you can play; one is the Hobbytown USA, which made the (to me) mistake of moving across town a few years back to the 'growing' area where it is incredibly expensive to run an establishment. The store is larger than their previous one, which I don't think had game tables, but I have slowly seen their GW focus dwindle over the years to the point it is now less than half what it was two years ago. Now, one side of a ten-foot aisle is 40k, the other is Fantasy. Periodically they have massive 50% off sales to clear year-old stock, where I find myself spending a whole paycheck....:cries:

At first they made room for Flames of War, but that did not last long at all. I have yet to find any players in my area, but I do know that they have tables available on Saturdays, and some tournaments here and there. Today was an interesting twist where they let the player's have a 'flea market' set up for a few hours in the gaming area, which was a novel concept, but I believe ultimately only a few people showed up. I am not sure if it is just that area that does not have a huge Warhammer community, or Knoxville as a whole. It really does seem like every game they get in (especially Haloclix) gets the spotlight for a moment, but stock is rarely renewed until it hits the clearance shelves.

As for the other gamestore (a 'true' gamestore), I rarely go out that way since traffic is murder to begin with, and the route there has become a detour for the 'downtown' interstate section that was closed off. I do know that it is easier to find limited items there, as I was able to get the WD XXX a few days after release, not to mention a couple of Hero Basing Kit's almost a year after they stopped selling them. They have areas for people to play, but not a huge selection of Warhammer really.

The other store within walking distance where I live went under new ownership, and I believe have more unopened box sets than they do for Warhammer (and 40k), while they still have a plethora of D&D minis, Star Wars minis, Reaper, and a small section of Haloclix. I think in one of these stores they still have a Chaos Dwarf Rocketlauncher sealed in it's dusty old blister, right next to the 'Gobbos' blister from long ago.

Oh, one last thing; Warmachine has suffered both here and in Ohio at every store I went to. It started out big, but, like I mentioned about everything else, just dwindled in stock until it hit clearance time. Makes me wish I lived in Britain....

lorbaat
17-08-2008, 14:06
'Have you, in your area (please feel free to state where!) been witness to a shift in popularity between different games. And if you have, how fickle are the gamers loyalties? Is it a case of flavour of the month, or just different gamers settling into different niches?'

My local gaming store has its share of both. There is a part of the community that will go all flavor-of-the-month, the core of which kind of follows the cult of personality of the owner. But there is also a segment that is just hard-core into the game/s they're into, and it takes a fairly large shift to move them.

While there's always been a solid 40K group, and a solid WHFB group (both of which at this point exist without much store support, organizing their own events and using the store as a venue for them), there have been people sucked into Flames of War (a group that still plays, supposedly, although I haven't seen a game of it in a while), AT-43 (Strong for a while on the game's release, but I've ever seen anyone playing, just sitting around with their figs), Confrontation (had a big group building up from the game's release that even started to get into Ragnarok, but rules changes killed it), HeroClix (I was a part of this group, but again, rules changes and a general growing disdain for blind-box collectible games killed it).

The most significant one was a Starship Trooper community that grew up because the owner of the store had decided that it was the Thing That Could Kill 40K (he had a falling out with GW). He encouraged most of the store's 40K players at the time to take up Starship Troopers, flat out stopped running 40K events in favor of ST events, even ended up working for that company in some capacity (for some reason, he refuses to simply work at his own store, preferring to work full-time elsewhere and employ people to run his shop). But, of course, Starship Troopers also died on the vine.

I don't think it's a matter of GW outlasting a recession- I think that for whatever reason, GW or their games simply have something others don't. I have zero faith that any game will last as long as or truly compete with 40K and WHFB (yes, that includes LotR).

rich1231
17-08-2008, 14:16
Problem is we the public have perceptions based on short term comfort and "what you know" Change no matter how it is packaged causes fear and misunderstanding. But nothing stays the same. You will perpetually have people that find change difficult to swallow and the internet gives an audience to the ranting.

Gaming is no different.

robertsjf
17-08-2008, 14:44
what is flames of war?

"warhammer 1.941 k" former GW employees took the 3rd edition game engine and adapted it to 15mm WWII....

Than W
18-08-2008, 00:33
Ummm, no. While FoW certainly took some inspirations from 40K (the move/shoot/assault turn sequence for example) it is a completely different game. If somebody familiar with only 40K watched a FoW game or read an army book, they would have no clue what was going on.

In my area (Christchurch, NZ) our gaming store has no room for tables, but we do have two gaming clubs. The one I attend regularly (the Cavaliers) usually has around a dozen people playing 40K, half a dozen each of WHFB and FoW, and one or two other games (mostly Warmachine, but occasionally FoG or Starship Troopers) running.

robertsjf
18-08-2008, 01:38
While FoW certainly took some inspirations from 40K (the move/shoot/assault turn sequence for example)

that's the beating heart of the system! Took inspiration? Why don't I take, dunno, Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage and I'll change all the names and do it in a prose format. it'll be completely different, I promise.

And I'm sure they're good friends of yours, being on the same island-nation, and I have no beef with the FoW rules as they are pretty cool adaptations (like being able to hit troops based on their experience level), but saying that it's "nothing like 40k" is a crock. and this coming from someone who's played a few games.

lorbaat
18-08-2008, 01:44
that's the beating heart of the system! Took inspiration? Why don't I take, dunno, Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage and I'll change all the names and do it in a prose format. it'll be completely different, I promise.

Wouldn't that be more like taking Byron's book and then writing another with words, sentences, and paragraphs?

You get to take all your actions in your own turn in the board game "Monsters Ravage America" too, but I wouldn't say it's ripped off from 40K.

robertsjf
19-08-2008, 00:18
You get to take all your actions in your own turn in the board game "Monsters Ravage America" too, but I wouldn't say it's ripped off from 40K.


does it have a move phase where movement is dictated by overall unit type and not specific model type? Is that followed by the shooting phase? Is it then followed by an assault phase where attacking teams can damage units in a 2" radius?

Crazy Harborc
19-08-2008, 01:08
Florissant, Missouri is very close to St.Louis, Missouri. This area has over one hundredtowns and small cities making up an area with a population og 2.6 to 3.1 million (depending on who's figures/numbers you use).

This area has had a wargaming community......several actually for decades. There is one official organisation (nick named Big Muddy). All kinds of rules, all kinds of wargaming....NOT including WHFB, 40K, LoTRs etc. At this time, there are no real general wargaming supply stores in the area. There were, they are gone...not just because of slow business....other reasons abound.

There are several stores that have FOW, Warmachine, this and that and "some GW". Around here there are several small places that have some role playing, card games, Star Wars...then they have their money makers....comics, paperbacks, various historical and fantasy board games.

There is a local chain of 6 stores that had been well supplied with the full range of GW (brand named) products. That chain is still around, but...with GW at only one location. The chain is mainly all about comics, roleplaying, this and that.

The one GW store (They had planned to have at least one more by now) is the main source of GW in the area. Just about the only store with GW systems gaming.

Having gaming tables at home has been the norm in this area for decades.
To my knowledge there are no private club owned or rented wargaming buildings.

A little WAB, Confrontation, Warmachine, FOW, ACW, OOP rules and limited interest rules. Now add a growing interest in FOG. Most of the Non-GW minies come from mail-order and or on-line stores.

Oh well too much rambling. Got more threads to read.

CarlostheCraven
19-08-2008, 01:44
Hi

My experience is a strong leader, either the store owner or one of the regulars or perhaps both, set the tone for a store that includes gaming tables. They set the tone and the followers follow. If you have the right blend multiple systems can flourish, otherwise things ebb and flow according to the whims of the leadership.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Pravus
21-08-2008, 14:21
I'm based in Leicester and play regularly at Leicester Phatcats.

40K and WHFB are persistent. Alternative games are blossoming, especially FoW, Hordes and Warmachine. Blood Bowl, is as ever, popular as well as Warhammer Quest, board games (Civillisation at the moment) and Wings of War. Lot of ROLE-MA-PLAYING going on too with Dark Heresy (you crazy role-ma-players!). There's a lot of other gaming randomness too - Infinity, Rules of Engagement, Aeronautica Imperialis, Fields of Glory, Epic Armageddon Heavy Gear (although that lasted a week). We're like the gaming version of the Baby-Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells - animal, vegetable, mineral - we'll do anything too anything.

One interesting feature is that the GW participation is far less vibrant than the other systems. People are organizing campaigns, ladders and interclub events for the other systems whereas GW gaming is focussed around tournament preparation and other essentially "sterile" activities. The advent of 5th edition has a few players questioning their desire to continue playing 40K at all. From a personal point of view I'm on the cusp of abandoning WHFB - Warriors of Chaos is essentially the last chance saloon and only then because I've already got a chaos mortals army that I probably won't need to buy anything for to play.