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Praexes
17-08-2008, 09:36
What characteristics and colours would Pre-Heresy, crusade era eldar have?

This is right after the Fall so:

- The bulk of the surviving Eldar are already on Craftworlds
- The Warrior Aspects are probably already established

But:

- How commonplace are the Warrior Aspects? Are they as firmly established in Eldar society as in the 41st millenium?
- How would the prevalence of Eldar psykers and Farseers be affected?
- What amour colours and 'uniforms' would be acceptable from a fluff stand-point besides the current ones?
- Would Eldar tech have been noticeably different?


Thanks,
++Praexes++

Sabbad
17-08-2008, 09:52
Pre-heresy Eldar are a background contradiction.

On one hand, the background teaches us that the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh blew away the warp storms that had isolated Terra for millennia. The death of the Eldar Empire immediately heralded the Emperor's crusade and rise of the Imperium. But on the other hand, if this is true, that would mean that the Dark Age of Technology (where humanity supposedly colonised most of the modern-day Imperium, hence the discovery of other human civilisations during the Great Crusade) would have to happen at the same time that the Eldar ruled the galaxy. Somehow I can't imagine those two empires living side by side peacefully.

Depending on what you choose to believe - whether the Fall happened millennia before the Great Crusade started, or earlier that week - your viewpoint on pre-Heresy Eldar is radically different. If the Craftworlders had been in self-imposed exile for thousands of years, then its safe to say that they would have developed the Path of the Eldar to as advanced a state as it is today. That means the Aspect Warriors have firmly established shrines, the Witch Path is fully introduced, and the way they appear and fight in battle is much the same as the 41st millennium. The alternative is that the Eldar are still trying to figure out how best to save their souls from Slaanesh, which could even means that the Emperor and Primarchs predate the Phoenix Lords in the time since their arrival.

In the book Fulgrim, the Primarch has a chat with Eldrad Ulthran (yes, he's really that old), who's brought a Wraithlord along for company. From this we can deduce that:

(1) The Eldar have Waystones and are therefore at least halfway there to establishing the Path of the Eldar.
(2) The Eldar have Spiritseers who can make the construction of a Wraithlord possible.
(3) The Eldar have been fighting for so long that they're apparently already desperate to raise the dead to fight for them.

As for Eldar tech, it's another contradiction really. Other than a half-arsed explanation of "They're a dying race, they don't have time for technological advancement", there's no real reason why Eldar technology has stagnated so much that by the 41st Millennium they've almost been overtaken by the Tau. To reference the book Fulgrim again, the Eldar seem to fight in a very conventional way, so make of that what you will...

Iracundus
17-08-2008, 10:04
Pre-heresy Eldar are a background contradiction.

On one hand, the background teaches us that the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh blew away the warp storms that had isolated Terra for millennia. The death of the Eldar Empire immediately heralded the Emperor's crusade and rise of the Imperium. But on the other hand, if this is true, that would mean that the Dark Age of Technology (where humanity supposedly colonised most of the modern-day Imperium, hence the discovery of other human civilisations during the Great Crusade) would have to happen at the same time that the Eldar ruled the galaxy. Somehow I can't imagine those two empires living side by side peacefully.

Why not? Humans were not necessarily as xenophobic as they are today. The Eldar empire may have already settled into a long running complacency. It is said in 2nd and 4th Ed. Eldar Codices that they were secure from outside threats. It could have been a case of the humans being content to let sleeping lions lie and steer clear of Eldar interests and worlds, even while humans spread to the far reaches of the galaxy.

Sabbad
17-08-2008, 10:19
Why not? Humans were not necessarily as xenophobic as they are today.

Yes, and maybe Orks were peace loving hippies who had tea parties with Bloodletters back in the good old days, but I doubt it. A consistent theme of 40K is that violence, hatred and prejudice are natural traits of humanity, so I doubt their first reaction to the Eldar in the way of their new galactic empire was tolerance. I'm also sceptical that the Eldar were content to let humanity build an Imperium-sized empire.

Iracundus
17-08-2008, 10:40
Yes, and maybe Orks were peace loving hippies who had tea parties with Bloodletters back in the good old days, but I doubt it. A consistent theme of 40K is that violence, hatred and prejudice are natural traits of humanity, so I doubt their first reaction to the Eldar in the way of their new galactic empire was tolerance. I'm also sceptical that the Eldar were content to let humanity build an Imperium-sized empire.

Humans are xenophobic in the current 40K era as a RESULT of their experiences in the past. When human civilization collapsed, all other races exploited them. The Dark Age of Technology was when humans were more enlightened.

Even if there were conflicts with the Eldar, the statements in the Eldar Codex mean the humans never posed a serious threat to the Eldar empire. The behavior of the Eldar pre-Fall with respect to the dorman Necrons suggest their attitude in general: if all is good, don't rock the boat. Neither the humans nor the Orks were a threat to the overall Eldar dominance at the time. The Eldar may already have starting on their downward trend towards decadence. The situation described by Vect in "A Torturer's Tale" certainly suggests an idyllic society untroubled by outside concerns, which is what allowed for the kind of introspection and ultimately degeneration that brought about the Fall. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a decaying empire ignored a foreign entity forming on its borders in favor of internal pursuits. Ming China is one example off hand.

Magos Explorator
17-08-2008, 13:55
What characteristics and colours would Pre-Heresy, crusade era eldar have?

This is right after the Fall so:

- The bulk of the surviving Eldar are already on Craftworlds
- The Warrior Aspects are probably already established

But:

- How commonplace are the Warrior Aspects? Are they as firmly established in Eldar society as in the 41st millenium?
- How would the prevalence of Eldar psykers and Farseers be affected?
- What amour colours and 'uniforms' would be acceptable from a fluff stand-point besides the current ones?
- Would Eldar tech have been noticeably different?


Thanks,
++Praexes++

To go alongisde my pre-Heresy marine force, I've been building and painting some Eldar. I decided to go with Altansar craftworld, as it was supposedly swallowed by the Eye of Terror soon after the Fall, so my force could either be while it is going strong or one of the small remnant fleets that was away from home when the Eye caught up, depending on when exactly you believe the Fall took place.

There's not really much information, though, on what Eldar society was like back then. We know what Sabbad has posted, not much else. It also seems reasonable to assume that, since the Eldar had a long-running empire, their technology then had been largely perfected long ago and so their M31 gear would resemble their M41 stuff.

As I've said, though, there's little "official" information so you have free rein. ;) I've used a bunch of Rogue Trader-era Guardians for my first squad, largely because I had them, and am painting my Aspect warriors in non-traditional colours (though this is as much from my ideas of Altansar as any suggestion about what pre-Heresy Eldar would look like).

I think that the second-edition Eldar codex mentioned Warp Spiders as being the newest (in fluff terms) of the major aspects, but I could be wrong, and don't know how new they would be.

Iracundus
17-08-2008, 14:01
There's not really much information, though, on what Eldar society was like back then. We know what Sabbad has posted, not much else. It also seems reasonable to assume that, since the Eldar had a long-running empire, their technology then had been largely perfected long ago and so their M31 gear would resemble their M41 stuff.


It depends on whether the Vyper had been invented yet. The latest Eldar Codex says the Vyper was first pioneered by Saim-hann and the various Wraithlord variants first introduced by Iyanden.



I think that the second-edition Eldar codex mentioned Warp Spiders as being the newest (in fluff terms) of the major aspects, but I could be wrong, and don't know how new they would be.

And you are wrong. There is no comment in the 2nd ed. Eldar Codex on the age of the Warp Spiders. There is no real comment on the Shining Spears either. All that is known is the Path of the Warrior was first opened when Asurmen settled on the planet of Asur and began teaching, and from those first disciples would spring the first Aspects. We don't know how many there were originally but what is known is the major Aspects of Dire Avenger, Howling Banshee, Swooping Hawk, Fire Dragon, Dark Reaper, and Striking Scorpion were among them. If there were other Aspects formed by the first disciples of Asurmen they aren't specifically mentioned.

Hellebore
17-08-2008, 14:17
Which is strange when the article on eldar mythology describes Vaul creating wraithlords and guard during the war in heaven to fight the void dragon.

I suppose it's possible that Iyanden 'rediscovered' that concept, but I don't know that they could hav pioneered something that was created 60 million years ago.

Hellebore

The Venerable Archmage
17-08-2008, 14:38
Yes, and maybe Orks were peace loving hippies who had tea parties with Bloodletters back in the good old days, but I doubt it. A consistent theme of 40K is that violence, hatred and prejudice are natural traits of humanity, so I doubt their first reaction to the Eldar in the way of their new galactic empire was tolerance. I'm also sceptical that the Eldar were content to let humanity build an Imperium-sized empire.

Personally, I think that this state of affairs is a 40k thing, rather than a pre-heresy thing. If you look at the Interex, for instance, they seem reasonably open minded and decent society who could cooperate with others. Unfortunately, the Imperium and the Emperor are fundamentally, and I think unreasonably, opposed to this point of view, and so they've crushed it wherever it arises. Sure, there are a few alien races who are anathema to humanity (Tyranids, Necrons, Orks) but there are others, the Tau and the Eldar, who humanity could cooperate with (and occasionally they do). Also, the ones who are anathema to humanity are usually anathema to everyone else, so it seems more sensible for the saner races to cooperate to take out the gribbly horrors rather than squabble amongst themselves.

If I were an alien race and all I knew of humanity came from the Imperium, I think it's be understandable if I believed humanity ought to just be wiped out. The Imperium is horrible and, frankly, evil, so I wonder how many hostile alien races are hostile because their first encounter with the Imperium was an aggressive genocide. When it come to all these wars that the Imperium is fighting, it's quite often the Imperium who started it.

Looking on the setting from a narrative perspective, I find the horror of it all a lot more compelling when there is, tragically, an alternative. The eldar and humanity, for instance, could work to each other's mutual benefit if the one side were less manipulative and the other side were more tolerant. Tau want to talk, so talk.

So, that's my rather long winded way of saying I think pre-heresy eldar and DAoT humans could have existed, if not in harmony, then at least in a climate of mutual accomodation.

PondaNagura
17-08-2008, 16:52
i feel that the pre-heresy/great crusade era eldar would have been either the craftworlds: who would have secluded themselves from the rise of humanity sweeping across the galaxy...having just experienced the Fall, would be a little cautious about exposing themselves to harms way.
and maybe bands of pirate eldar factions, ala RT style. where they might seek refuge amongst the maiden worlds, or in other known trade-spaces. places where xenos and humanity at least tolerate each other, if not trade/co-exist.

Sabbad
17-08-2008, 17:38
It depends on whether the Vyper had been invented yet. The latest Eldar Codex says the Vyper was first pioneered by Saim-hann and the various Wraithlord variants first introduced by Iyanden.


Which is strange when the article on eldar mythology describes Vaul creating wraithlords and guard during the war in heaven to fight the void dragon.

I suppose it's possible that Iyanden 'rediscovered' that concept, but I don't know that they could hav pioneered something that was created 60 million years ago.

...and I also think it's strange that Iyanden are supposedly "Wraithlord experts" when the great tragedy that forced them to rely upon Ghost Warriors for the bulk of their armies occurred in the year 40996.

Either most Wraithlord variants have been pioneered in the last three years, or its dreadfully convenient that the Craftworld unfortunate enough to be devastated by Tyranids just happened to have a massive, well honed army of dead people lying around beforehand.

Magos Explorator
17-08-2008, 18:58
And you are wrong. There is no comment in the 2nd ed. Eldar Codex on the age of the Warp Spiders. There is no real comment on the Shining Spears either.

There we go then. :) Saves me digging it out to check when I get home!

Disciple of Caliban
17-08-2008, 19:11
The book 'Fulgrim' seems to suggest that the warrior temples are well established. When Eldrad realises fulgrim is under the influence of a demon and sends in Ulthwes army they are accompanied by howling banshees (ok, were not given the name, but power swords and screaming make it clear enough) this would suggest the eldar fall happened some time ago, also, the fact that the Eldar are interested in human affairs, and the maiden worlds have already blossomed, suggests Eldar are much more like the race of the 41st millenium than the eldar of the galaxy spanning empire

Gropius
17-08-2008, 20:56
I have to say though, the description of the Eldar in Fulgrim is quite disappointing, they just act as a background for Fulgrim's awsomeness and act quite stupid in general, for example a Falcon deliberatly going into close combat with Fulgrim:wtf:

Malevon
17-08-2008, 22:03
Dark Age of Technology humans definitely could/would have been more tolerant. Human Xenophobia in 40k is largely a product of Imperial dogma and the Cult of the Emperor; if anyone who doesn't worship and love the Emperor is unholy, then an alien species not entirely familiar with the fellow certainly is. Dark Age of Technology humans, however, had no religion; that's the reason it's labelled a "Dark Age" by "current" 40k humans, rather than hailed as the Golden Age it really was. These enlightened ancestors are perceived as godless, and therefore evil. If they were free of the dogma that plagues humans in the 41st millennium, there would have at least been room for rational discussion of mutual interests, such as peace. This happens occasionally in the Imperium, but it has to be pushed under the rug by authorities, and the average citizen can't know or the concept that all Xenos are evil would come crumbling down.

GodofWarTx
17-08-2008, 23:04
Dark Age of Technology humans definitely could/would have been more tolerant. Human Xenophobia in 40k is largely a product of Imperial dogma and the Cult of the Emperor; if anyone who doesn't worship and love the Emperor is unholy, then an alien species not entirely familiar with the fellow certainly is. Dark Age of Technology humans, however, had no religion; that's the reason it's labelled a "Dark Age" by "current" 40k humans, rather than hailed as the Golden Age it really was. These enlightened ancestors are perceived as godless, and therefore evil. If they were free of the dogma that plagues humans in the 41st millennium, there would have at least been room for rational discussion of mutual interests, such as peace. This happens occasionally in the Imperium, but it has to be pushed under the rug by authorities, and the average citizen can't know or the concept that all Xenos are evil would come crumbling down.

That "godless" spiel works out great until you find something clawing its way out of the ether and you exclaim " oh my god! DEEEEMONS!" To me, it seems blatantly clear that negotiations in the galaxy as presented in warhammer 40,000 is delaying the inevitable war at best, and a waste of time at worst. The galaxy is a cold harsh place. Seems to me the ruling on aliens is put in place to safeguard against the worst. Better be safe than sorry. Just like one would treat a gun as always loaded, rather than assume its safe and can be trusted not to fire if the right triggers are pulled ;)

Look at the Eldar, being such a "enlightened, dogma free race". You dont see them allying with many aliens. You dont even see any other races fighting under an Eldar banner. They serve their needs first, other races second. Eldrad has had to convince lots of his fellow eldar that humanity might be a good bulwark against chaos too. Eldar have fought eldar before. An example was an ulthwe force was trying to stop a alaitoc force from annihilating a colony of imperials that mistakenly landed on an eldar claimed world. The alaitoc wanted the interlopers dead, while the ulthwe farseers saw the world, if left alone, would provide a huge fortress against the coming Great Devourer. The two parties warred, and sadly the Alaitoc won, going on to crush the colony.

I would say the DAOT was tolerant because they were blissfully unaware of how cruel the universe was, or how their alien allies would treat them when the intergalatic human empire collapsed, and humanity rapidly became enslaved and prey to the other alien species. I would say the Emperor, being the steward of humanity, knew how other races would exploit mankind, and he wouldnt allow that.

Just look at the eldar. Before the fall they were wildly decadent (reference : dark eldar) and used other races as playthings when they did bother to involve themselves in others affairs. All through up to 40,000 the eldar have given with one hand and slapped with the other in accordance to their manipulations. How would you react if you got kicked in the nuts every time a friend of yours gave you candy? After awhile, you wouldnt take the candy at all, and would probably tell your friend what he can do with himself.

The emperor warned about all the dangers of alien cultures and what might seem innocent might be incredibly perverse. The laer were a great example of how easily just even the slightest absorption of an alien culture can bring down even the primarchs into forsaking humanity.

*spoiler*

Then you have the group represented by John Grammaticus. "We messed up in dealing with chaos, but we want you, humanity, to self-implode and destroy yourself so chaos can ultimately lose". That just smacks of such smug self-importance to tell an intelligent species they need to fail and die for a *possible* defeat, when they made no such sacrifices of their own. That would be like the US, Great Britain, and Canada telling Spain to give up its entire culture because its interfering with the globablization of the english language, which would benifit all.

In regards to the Eldar culture, it stands to reason their technology would be very similar. The eldar ways of war seem to be perfected, its only in the eldar's numbers to bring to bear that they are currently forced to operate as a raiding force rather than a mighty army of conquest as surely they could have before the fall. Eldar technology is still so advanced it seems like magic to most lesser races. Even the Tau have to rely on quite crude weapons and technology as compared to the easy elegance by the Eldar. I would say the Eldar would have been a force that would be folly to run into on the field of battle, with high technology, highly trained soldiers, and superiority of numbers as compared to "modern" 40k.

DarkAzrael169
18-08-2008, 06:31
I have to say though, the description of the Eldar in Fulgrim is quite disappointing, they just act as a background for Fulgrim's awsomeness and act quite stupid in general, for example a Falcon deliberatly going into close combat with Fulgrim:wtf:

I'm sorry, this is gonna be a rant...
Ya I'm tired of that stuff too. It is redundantly stupid for Eldar to always get their asses handed to them... Their average person, or lets go with their weakest soldier a guardian: a person who is pretty much a craftworld's militia. Take note this is their weakest guy... They have a six pack, their lean and fit, have a gun that is the equivalent of the bolter just shorter range, they are agile and quick, the equivalent if not better than the best in the olympics... Initiative of Space Marines. They process thoughts twice as fast as a human (This has its downsides though). This is their militia. And I ask you how these people can be beat so easily, when they even look towards the future to make sure they win fights? Done with rant :angel:

I think they would be similar to pre-heresy except for one thing. I think Eldrad had hope for humanity, that was until he saw the heresy and Fulgrim corrupted. I think in general Eldar are a lot less inclined to be tolerant towards humanity... After 10 thousand years of Abbadon launching crusades and everything else humans screw up. They lost whatever faith they had in humanity when the Horus Heresy started.

Joe Kutz
18-08-2008, 08:49
All that is known is the Path of the Warrior was first opened when Asurmen settled on the planet of Asur and began teaching, and from those first disciples would spring the first Aspects. We don't know how many there were originally but what is known is the major Aspects of Dire Avenger, Howling Banshee, Swooping Hawk, Fire Dragon, Dark Reaper, and Striking Scorpion were among them. If there were other Aspects formed by the first disciples of Asurmen they aren't specifically mentioned.

The most complete story of the founding of the Aspects was in Craftworld Eldar Codex (might have been reprinted in another book - but that is where I remember it from). The planet is never named...only that it was settled by the people lead by Asurmen and the shrine was called Asur. The story describes them to be more like Exodites than other Eldar - so they would have likely left before the fall by a fair amount of time (based on other accounts of the timeline of the fall).

In that story, Jain Zhar and Fuegan founded the first aspects after the Dire Avengers (Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons respectively). Maugan Ra founded the Dark Reapers following the destruction of Altansar (he created his aspect to avenge the destruction) so they would be post fall. The Swooping Hawks and Striking Scorpions are mentioned after the Dark Reapers...though it doesn't specifically mention that they are formed after them. Those are considered to be the first born Aspects - and are said to be eternal.

Other aspects have been developed since then (as mentioned in various other Eldar fluff bits) and some have made it into the books with official rules (Warp Spiders, Shining Spears) but most are only mentioned in passing.
_______

The above is paraphrased from a page long fluff section in the book. It was apparently a translation from an Eldar artifact found by Imperial forces.

Poseidal
18-08-2008, 10:11
It says that Jain Zar and the others were direct students of Asurmen. Also, Craftworlders had been leaving before the fall; I think they were stated as giant trading vessels, which happened to have to become the area of living for them

I think Asurmen's first shrine was more 'generic' and all of the aspects came from that - it could be they are all developed from Dire Avengers.

Idaan
18-08-2008, 12:53
In the book Fulgrim, the Primarch has a chat with Eldrad Ulthran (yes, he's really that old), who's brought a Wraithlord along for company. From this we can deduce that:

(1) The Eldar have Waystones and are therefore at least halfway there to establishing the Path of the Eldar.
(2) The Eldar have Spiritseers who can make the construction of a Wraithlord possible.
(3) The Eldar have been fighting for so long that they're apparently already desperate to raise the dead to fight for them.
(4) The author couldn't be bothered with imagining something new and logical regarding Eldar civilisation immediately after the Fall, so he just assumed that it's all the same as in M41.
Thus:
-Eldar is already in charge of the most psychic Craftworld, so probably he isn't the youngest of Seers (otherwise why would he be chosen). This makes him not 10000 years old but probably 15000 or so. Lame, even Vect was merely a child at the time of the Fall.


Dark Age of Technology humans definitely could/would have been more tolerant. Human Xenophobia in 40k is largely a product of Imperial dogma and the Cult of the Emperor; if anyone who doesn't worship and love the Emperor is unholy, then an alien species not entirely familiar with the fellow certainly is. Dark Age of Technology humans, however, had no religion; that's the reason it's labelled a "Dark Age" by "current" 40k humans, rather than hailed as the Golden Age it really was. These enlightened ancestors are perceived as godless, and therefore evil. If they were free of the dogma that plagues humans in the 41st millennium, there would have at least been room for rational discussion of mutual interests, such as peace. This happens occasionally in the Imperium, but it has to be pushed under the rug by authorities, and the average citizen can't know or the concept that all Xenos are evil would come crumbling down.You're looking at it from the wrong side. It's the Eldar who have been tolerant to the humans settling on the worlds they didn't want for themselves, just as you are tolerant to ants as long as they don't start infesting your house. It is clearly said in the codex that at the height of the Eldar empire, no other race posed a threat to it. Yet somehow Orks, Hrud, Demiurg, Q'orl and myriads of other smaller races somehow survived in the Eldar-reigned galaxy. It would be only possible if the Eldar weren't interested in exterminating them, as long as they didn't try to colonise Eldar worlds. Eldar population was probably much smaller than Imperium's, with less occupied worlds. And considering the fact that Imperium is pretty thinly spread across the galaxy, there would be thousands of worlds Eldar didn't find fertile or interesting enough. Add to that the increasing stagnation in the Empire which was simultaneaous with human DaoT, and it is pretty possible that the Eldar didn't even notice that Mankind was spreading across the galaxy. And in my opinion, there wasn't any central human government during DaoT, or at least if there were, it wasn't very effective or respected. Otherwise it has fallen far to easily to psyker plague and Terra being isolated. Yes, Iron Man rebellion has weakened it, but obviously humanity won that war. So in my opinion there wasn't any Human empire in DaoT. Maybe some loose alliance or federation, but nothing more that would pose a threat to the Eldar.



Also, Craftworlders had been leaving before the fall; I think they were stated as giant trading vessels, which happened to have to become the area of living for themBut most left only immediately prior to it, with those closest to the Eye (Ulthwe, Altansar) riding on the psychic shockwave in desperate attempts to escape the epicenter with what survivors they could gather.

Poseidal
18-08-2008, 13:14
In the book Fulgrim, the Primarch has a chat with Eldrad Ulthran (yes, he's really that old), who's brought a Wraithlord along for company. From this we can deduce that:

(1) The Eldar have Waystones and are therefore at least halfway there to establishing the Path of the Eldar.
(2) The Eldar have Spiritseers who can make the construction of a Wraithlord possible.
(3) The Eldar have been fighting for so long that they're apparently already desperate to raise the dead to fight for them.
Which is interesting, as I thought the Wraithlord was pioneered by Iyanden around the time of the Tyranid invasion? (I think I read that in the current book - not sure if that's exactly what was stated though.)

Ubermensch Commander
18-08-2008, 16:45
Which is strange when the article on eldar mythology describes Vaul creating wraithlords and guard during the war in heaven to fight the void dragon.

I suppose it's possible that Iyanden 'rediscovered' that concept, but I don't know that they could hav pioneered something that was created 60 million years ago.

Hellebore

Oh ye gods, is that the same article that has the warp entity/god Khaine "tainted" by the Necrodermis of the C'tan to create his aspect as the Destroyer?:rolleyes: Yeah....wunderbar. More shoehorning of Necrons.
At any rate, Wraithlords/guard being around before the Fall makes little sense. Since the Eldar had no fear of Slaanesh(since Slaanesh had not yet been birthed by their decadence) they had no need to create the spirit stones which would power the Wraith constructs. Thus I am inclined to believe the "Iyanden pioneered it" rather than the "It was to fight the Necrons!"

Idaan
18-08-2008, 19:23
It says that Iyanden pioneered many variants of the Ghost Warrior (Wraithlords and Wraithguards) constructs. That could mean that:
- there weren't any Ghost Warriors before 992.M41, or they weren't widespread among other Craftworlds. Which would be lame, as that would mean that all Wraithlords are 8 year old.
- it applies to specialised Ghost Warrior variants which aren't in the codex, such as rumoured close-combat Wraithguard (a little blurb of text in WD when plastic Wraithlord was released says that Iyanden makes Lords and Guards suited to every task, close combat included)
- GW can't keep track of Eldar timeline and think that Fall of Iyanden was aeons ago. Which wouldn't be that strange, considering that rulebook timeline shows Prince Yriel as a Pirate in 766.M41, whereas he was still the High Admiral until around 950.M41. Or, for a different example the portrayal of their race in 'Fulgrim' itself, with (several hundred year-old) Autarchs, Exarchs, all Aspects already widespread, Avatar ready to go to war, ancient Wraithlords and ridiculously old Eldrad Ulthran, the whole Craftworld culture already formed and refined mere 300 years after the Fall. Lame, lame, lame.

IMHO it really makes no sense whatsoever for pre-Heresy Eldar being identical to M41-era Eldar. It isn't the Imperium where you just take away ass-cannons and plasma guns, and swap helmets for the Marines. The whole culture had to be built from scratch, its pillars nonexistent before the Fall:
- the Path system - we can argue if it was in place before the Fall or not, but it strikes me as odd that such a precise and finesse way of avoiding Slaanesh's attention would be created before the nature of the enemy and its thirst for souls was even known. It is said that some have forseen the cataclysm and the fall of Eldar empire, some even worshipped the Prince in his sleeping form, but how possibly would they know that he would hold dominion upon their souls which couldn't be escaped except for one way? That the god which feeds on excess and perfection wouldn't be empowered if said excess and perfection were channeled in only one area?
Yes, one can imagine that pre-Fall refugees had some mystical way of self-denial to separate themselves from their kin's madness, and even that it later evolved into Path proper, but no way that the Path of the Warrior existed pre-Fall in its current form, with Exarchs for example (as these are dependent on Spirit Stones) , and style of fighting totally unfitting the tactics of Eldar at that time
-Spirit stones - there were legends of Isha's Tears, but they were only used to communicate, and again, there was no need to trap one's soul after death: Warp was perfectly calm and safe for them.
-Infinity Circuits - again, there was no need for them.

Not to mention the need of total change of the Eldar way of fighting. Before the Fall they just obliterated the enemy, according to Vect they had whole armies of constructs to do the fighting for them. Using the hit&run, stealthy tactics when you're the master of the universe would be like Americans operating in Iraq using small group of guerilla fighters with AK-47 and no air/armoured support. The only unit I imagine to be a leftover from Imperial times would be the Titans (and we know that DaoT humans and Orks constructed their Titans to ape Eldar construction), maybe Scorpion tanks. We know for sure that Vyper is post-Fall invention (Saim-Hann created them), same for all vehicles dependent on Spirit Stones. One can easily trace jetbike's or War Walker's origin in some civil vessels, too.

All in all, it makes no sense for pre-Heresy Eldar to be current Eldar. Or at the very least, it is a waste of narrative potential.

Praexes
18-08-2008, 21:32
I think the Paths were developed after the Fall, not before.

The survivors survived simply because they 'got out in time' before the Eldar home worlds were turned into the eye of terror. The Paths were developed focus the incredibly potent psychic feedback and energies of any group of Eldar (even the tiny number left after the Fall) to non-destructive, non-corrupt practices. This was all done to prevent the same thing happening where ever Eldar went, as:

- They generate huge amounts of psychic 'background noise' in the warp
- They wanted to go to extreme measures to prevent another castastrophe, as the shock and terror of the Fall was still fresh in their minds. Real Life example: the US randomly invading Iraq because they were afraid of another 9/11.

Joe Kutz
18-08-2008, 22:05
If you take a look at the actual fluff though, it seems to point that those who survived the fall (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites) actually started to leave the Eldar homeworlds a generation before the fall. Various psychics (who would become known as Farseers) saw the problems which were coming, and realized it was there only hope to survive.

Most the paths were probably started before the actual fall itself...though at that point, the fall had become inevitable and foreseeable for the Craftworld Eldar. The source material from the Craftworld Eldar book states that the path of the warrior was founded before the Fall.

From other fluff, the Eldar who remained on the Eldar homeworlds seem to be closer to Dark Eldar than the others (maybe with less murder and more general gluttony and other vices). Liber Chaotica describes this time period as being fairly short - which makes a fair amount of sense.

Eldar prior to that period were probably closer in behavior to the Craftworld Eldar (aloof, arrogant and advanced) - however as opposed to following the Paths as they do now, it would like have been something more of a free for all in terms of training and professions (as they might be). Again, this is covered in some detail in the various bits of fluff that exist regarding both the Eldar and Dark Eldar.

How long is an Eldar generation? Don't know - probably close to 1000 years or so...maybe longer. However since Eldar like Eldrad are usually referred to as old even for Eldar, I would guess it is less than 10,000 years.

Helsing
18-08-2008, 22:59
As the Warrior Aspects were founded relatively recently, they would have been limited mostly to the Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions, as these were the most ancient and numerous of Aspects. The Eldar Farseers would have been vital for the early Eldar's survival and would be the first and last figure of authority. After all, it was their foresight that had led the Eldar from the Fall and continued to save them as a species.
Eldar military uniforms would not have been as developed as Eldar Craftworld culture was still developing.

Helsing

Idaan
19-08-2008, 10:25
How long is an Eldar generation? Don't know - probably close to 1000 years or so...maybe longer. However since Eldar like Eldrad are usually referred to as old even for Eldar, I would guess it is less than 10,000 years.Normally Eldar live for around 1000 years 'before old age takes them' (2e and 4e codices). Humans live around 100 years and each generation is 25 years, so in proportion one Eldar generation should be around 250 years. That said we don't know exactly how does the Eldar procreation look like, so possibly we can extend one generation to 300 years given their 'long living, dying race with low numbers' theme.




Most the paths were probably started before the actual fall itself...though at that point, the fall had become inevitable and foreseeable for the Craftworld Eldar. The source material from the Craftworld Eldar book states that the path of the warrior was founded before the Fall.Well, my CW Eldar book says something completely different, or maybe I'm understanding it wrong:


It is fortunate that these primitive flaws were quickly identified by the Ancients in the aftermath of the Fall. They foresaw the need for protection against the aggression of younger races and for channelling the negative essence of the Eldar psyche.

One who is known only as Asurmen, established the Path of the Warrior at the time of the Fall.

So the Path as a whole came into existence after the Fall, with Path of the Warrior opened as one of the first, if not the first one. However it is possible that Asurmen went into refuge before Fall, and his teaching coalesced into the Path only after it.


As the Warrior Aspects were founded relatively recently, they would have been limited mostly to the Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions, as these were the most ancient and numerous of Aspects.Actually, the first Aspect was Dire Avengers. The second generation was Howling Banshee and Fire Dragon started by the greatest of Asurmen's disciples: Jain Zar and Fuegan. The third wave of Aspects was started few hundreds of years after the Fall, after the destruction of Altansar, because Maugan Ra is the first one of them mentioned, and we know that Baharroth was his close companion. Ahra, the first Striking Scorpion Exarch is mentioned alongside with them. Note that first Scorpions would be different from the ones we know now: Ahra's teachings were more dark, concentrating on destruction and slaughter, which was tempered with hunter's patience and devotion only by Karandras some time later.

oCoYoRoAoKo
19-08-2008, 15:16
right, my knowledge of eldar fluff is a bit shakey so forgive me if this is a little off:

is it possible the timeline goes something like this:

The war in heaven: Big fight with the necrons, Vaul realises that he can put the souls of dead eldar into artificial bodies to create the first wraithguard/wraithlords (using soulstones or other means), the warrior path was developed around this time (helping the fight against the necrons?) or a little later whilst the eldar were taking over the galaxy.

Rise of the Eldar: post war in heaven - the eldar take over the galaxy, wraithguard/lords fall into the realms of myth, warrior path exists in the form of the eldar army.

Fall of the Eldar: the eldar slip into decadance, the paths abandoned, slaanesh is born, lots of eldar die. Creation of spirit stones and the first 'true' wraithguard/lords (from the myths of vaul and his ghost warriors?) to help save them from slaanesh and the predatations of other races in the galaxy. - wraithguard/lords not widely used because eldar dont like doing it much. the aspect paths are created from the (now less used) warrior path to stop it happening again.

Gt Crusate and the heresy: Eldrad and Wraithlord Vs Fulgrim

Fall if Iyandin: Iyandin-ites perfect the use of spirit stones and wraithguard/lord creation (thus they could feasably be called pioneers) with many new types of wraith-construct being made at this time.

thats kinda how i see it but like i said, my knowledge of eldar fluff is a bit off (tyranid and necron however, is another story :D )

Cy.