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Defender of Ulthuan
17-08-2008, 18:05
1.NO NEW DARK RIDERS!!!

This one is quite obvious and needs little to no explanation.

HOWEVER,
There is no rule in warhammer (with, perhaps, the exception of charging spears not counting as charging a defended obstacle) which makes me more irate than Morathai's special rule:

2."Enchanting Beauty"

WHAT IS WITH THIS STUPID RULE?????

Was it simply GW's intention to make me mad? I've no idea, but congratulations, GW, you have succeeded.

Not only does her enchanting beauty affect the undead, but also things with absolutely no sex drive (apart from those horny skellies) like lizardmen, who spawn from pools, and have no genetalia to speak of. Oh, don't forget those Chaos spawns, and not to mention all those fanatics and elite warriors who do not suffer the pangs of psychology like lesser men. Oh yea, and dont forget those daemons whose only emotions are rage, etc.

OH YEA, AND ANY DARK ELF WHO'S BEEN TRAVELING WITH HER FOR MONTHS ON END AS PART OF AN INVADING ARMY.. OR MALEKITH.

In my mind this rule is so wrong... I can't even put a valid description on warseer, I want to curse so badly.

The rule needs two changes:

a) Put the word "enemy" between "Any" and "model".

b) At the end of the paragraph, add a clause for those itp units who don't deserve such filth.


WHERE'S MY ERRATA!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Defender

Gobbo Lord
17-08-2008, 18:14
Lol, what is the rule?

Defender of Ulthuan
17-08-2008, 18:24
At the start of every CC phase, ANY MODEL in BC with morathi must pass an Ld test or have their WS reduced to 1 for the remainder of the phase... BAH!!

Thommy H
17-08-2008, 18:25
In my mind this rule is so wrong... I can't even put a valid description on warseer, I want to curse so badly.

Did you ever consider that you might have your priorities in life a bit skewed?

And I would guess that the reason the rule effects skeletons and lizardmen and tomb scorpions is to avoid a whole page of exceptions since you could probably come up with a reason that every model in the game wouldn't be affected if you wanted.

Examples off the top of my head:

"My Grail Knights are chaste and virtuous; they are married only to The Lady and would never be attracted to an elf witch."

"My peasants are superstitious and prejudiced, they would find any elven female disgusting."

"My Griffon is not attracted to any humanoids at all."

"My Chaos Warriors only care about killing, not having sex."

"My Greatswords are converted Cathayan Eunuchs, so obviously the rule shouldn't apply to them."

"My Slayers only care about meeting death in battle, and hate all elves anyway."

"My Vampire Lord is a Lhamian seductress - she's sexier than Morthai."

"My Wardancer Highborn is gay."

And so on...

Arnizipal
17-08-2008, 18:26
Any model base to base with Morathi must pass a Ld test or be reduced to WS1 for that round.

Note that it doesn't say ENEMY models. :eek:

About the rule affecting lizardmen and undead, that's just streamlining the rules. I'm not perticularly fond of it either but we'll have to live with it.

gorenut
17-08-2008, 18:30
Yea.. the rule's description is pretty lame.. moreso the title. The effect is decent. I know GW was trying to make a point (too bad the model itself doesn't prove it).... I say.. like anything else that doesn't make sense in Warhammer, blame it on magic.

Defender of Ulthuan
17-08-2008, 18:31
Well, yes and no.

What I said about how I wanted to curse out the rule was both to avoid such a list as you said, as well as to exaggerate my point.

Oh, And can I PLEASE put this in my signature??????

"My Wardancer Highborn is gay."

Defender

P.S.- The WD hero is ITP by the way :D

Gimp
17-08-2008, 18:32
Did you ever consider that you might have your priorities in life a bit skewed?

And I would guess that the reason the rule effects skeletons and lizardmen and tomb scorpions is to avoid a whole page of exceptions since you could probably come up with a reason that every model in the game wouldn't be affected if you wanted.

Examples off the top of my head:

"My Grail Knights are chaste and virtuous; they are married only to The Lady and would never be attracted to an elf witch."

"My peasants are superstitious and prejudiced, they would find any elven female disgusting."

"My Griffon is not attracted to any humanoids at all."

"My Chaos Warriors only care about killing, not having sex."

"My Greatswords are converted Cathayan Eunuchs, so obviously the rule shouldn't apply to them."

"My Slayers only care about meeting death in battle, and hate all elves anyway."

"My Vampire Lord is a Lhamian seductress - she's sexier than Morthai."

"My Wardancer Highborn is gay."

And so on...

Congratulations everyone of those points made me laugh ;)

Rolo Ramone
17-08-2008, 18:33
How can you explain it?

Simple, "Enchanting Beauty" is an Enchantment, so is magic, can affect anything...

Magic can solve anything.

jeje.

Lordsaradain
17-08-2008, 18:37
Any model base to base with Morathi must pass a Ld test or be reduced to WS1 for that round.

Note that it doesn't say ENEMY models. :eek:




Makes sense though... :D

Thommy H
17-08-2008, 18:37
Oh, And can I PLEASE put this in my signature??????

Hey, knock yourself out.

It's really the same thing as Poisoned Attacks. You either list a bunch of exceptions, which people can argue with, and which will change as you alter rules and introduce new units, or just do a blanket "it applies to everyone". The third option is to not include the rule at all, but obviously they don't want to do that.

EvC
17-08-2008, 18:55
Morathi's unlikely to be spending much time in base contact with friendly troops... it's just a good thing it doesn't affect her steed as well, that'd be WRONG.

gorenut
17-08-2008, 19:13
Morathi's unlikely to be spending much time in base contact with friendly troops... it's just a good thing it doesn't affect her steed as well, that'd be WRONG.

Yes it would... Morathi would be going down in history as one who has broken the most laws of nature.

Lordsaradain
17-08-2008, 19:17
Do we know if Morathi's horse is male or female...? :P

sabre4190
17-08-2008, 22:01
Balance. If Morathi's special rules just can't impact some races, then you shouldnt pay full cost. I understand if models with immune to psych ignore this, but thats about it. By making it generic, everyone goes on an even playing field.

Condottiere
17-08-2008, 22:32
I had a look at the rule.

Her mount is not effected, it's not in base to base contact with the model, as it is part of the model.

Any other model is, whether friend or foe.

robertsjf
17-08-2008, 22:51
"My Wardancer Highborn is gay."...
except you got the female sculpt, still vulnerable....

Duke Georgal
17-08-2008, 23:26
"My Greatswords are converted Cathayan Eunuchs, so obviously the rule shouldn't apply to them."

"My Vampire Lord is a Lhamian seductress - she's sexier than Morthai."

"My Wardancer Highborn is gay."

Very, very funny post.

Thank you.

Dark_Mage99
18-08-2008, 00:31
You're not gonna have many friendly models in base contact with her when she's on her flying mount.

There's nothing wrong with the rule, in my opinion. Even creatures like Saurus can appreciate beauty, surely. Even if it's a momentary hesitation, WS 1 can resemble this. Just think of it a bit like Beguile; she might have particularly entrancing eyes, or some form of witchcraft that confuses them.

There's probably no such thing as an elite warrior who is completely immune to the enchanting effects of the most beautiful women in the world, especially when that woman is also one of the most powerful wizards in the world.

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 00:58
You think that's weird? You whould see some of the 40K rules. Poison works on inanimate objects like Necrons, Tau Drones, Wraithguard, etc. And Gift of Chaos can turn the same inanimate things into spawns.

Xaskus
18-08-2008, 01:11
You think that's weird? You whould see some of the 40K rules. Poison works on inanimate objects like Necrons, Tau Drones, Wraithguard, etc. And Gift of Chaos can turn the same inanimate things into spawns.

You beat me to it.

Thommy H
18-08-2008, 01:36
Poison works that way in Warhammer too.

Captin Korea!
18-08-2008, 01:44
You think that's weird? You whould see some of the 40K rules. Poison works on inanimate objects like Necrons, Tau Drones, Wraithguard, etc. And Gift of Chaos can turn the same inanimate things into spawns.

You forgot about the ork that makes things into squigs. See that greater daemon? -poof- Now its a harmless little squig! :wtf:

Warboss Antoni
18-08-2008, 04:02
How often do you really bring Zogwort though, let alone get the squig power off? And that's the kinda thing that makes Orks fun =).



Hoenstly, I just bet that the beauty looks like whatever the person wants a lot or is appealing somewhat sexually to them.
Orcs want beer. Lots of it.
Skellies probably look at it as some giant grave to put their lance into.
Lizardmen see eggs in a pool.
Zombies see nice brians to eat out.
Trolls want I don't know, vomit or somthing =P.
Goblins want a little pet squig to play with.
Brettonians see someone hotter then lady and quickly get divorced.
Ect.

Helbane
18-08-2008, 09:24
I rember similar sort of problem with the old vampires who had a bound spell i belive which aged the unit it was cast against. i argued that it wouldnt afect my saurus who are immortal or that it would turn them into a unit of scar-vets but my friend would have none of it!

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 12:07
I've heard of a Great Unclean One being killed by that spell. All I can tell you is that the owner said GUO has always had a little something stuck between his teeth after that incident. He doesn't argue against what happened, but the reasoning behind it.

Dead Man Walking
18-08-2008, 12:14
If your comparing undead hornyness and the phalic capabilities of lizardmen then your probably taking this game too seriously.

Lijacote
18-08-2008, 12:17
If your comparing undead hornyness and the phalic capabilities of lizardmen then your probably taking this game too seriously.

If it doesn't make sense, it can irritate some people who like things making sense at least sometimes. And let's all play Legohammer from now on, Warhammer is just too serious, I mean, it has a setting and all. TOO SERIOUS.

Sorry if this seems too aggressive.

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 12:24
Are people seriously suggesting a skeleton can't have a boner?

logan054
18-08-2008, 12:26
"My Chaos Warriors only care about killing, not having sex."

pfft, what about followers of slaanesh :p, i think its more problems getting out thanks to chaos armour :P

winkypinky
18-08-2008, 14:49
What cant you whine about these days?

If this should ever be fixed in anyway due to people complaining about it being "unfluffy" they should just rename it to "enchanting presence" that would shut everyone up who whines about the NAME of an ability being wrong.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that perhaps the oldest elf currently alive, (isnt she?) why by the way have practised magic her whole, and rather long life, having an ability that enforces somekind of test or lowers WS.

(And that would remove a part of the fluff and feel of the game, since she is clearly not beatifull like she was before, now its just magic.)

And the crying about poison/acid affecting "inanimate" objects, is just stupid. And even more stupid when there is absolutely nothing that points to what these poisons are made of. You can easily brew something together that would be certain death for humans and machines alike if it got injected into the bloodstreams/curcuits of said things.
And whining about the chaos gods being able to manipulate souls (necrons) or the machine spirit (yes there is such a thing in 40k if you read the fluff, and it is in everything) is maybe just as lame.
There is one of them called Tzeentch, the manipulater. Who have more cunning plans than what a mortal would ever be able to imagine. And being able to manipulate with absolutely everyone, if he sets his mind to it (and therefor also "your" mind).
He would be able to rule the entire universe in a blink of an eye, he just dosnt want it. (or so it seems to mortals, maybe he wants it anyway, just in an other way.)

In settings like this it is just rediculous to whine about poisons affecting things without a "bloodstream" and the GODS not being able to do what they want. With noninanimate objects. (machine spirits + souls)

Zoolander
18-08-2008, 15:01
Well, they could easily have said that units immune to psychology and non-humanoid beasts are immune to the effect, and that would solve 85% of the problem right there.

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 16:23
And the crying about poison/acid affecting "inanimate" objects, is just stupid.
I don't think anyone whined about it, just pointed it out. You're taking this a little too seriously for a person who thinks it shouldn't be taken seriously.

But tell me, what type of a poisoned dart breaks a cast iron cannon?


And whining about the chaos gods being able to manipulate souls (necrons) or the machine spirit (yes there is such a thing in 40k if you read the fluff, and it is in everything) is maybe just as lame.
Maybe you should check your fluff before making such claims. Necrons don't have souls. They were consumed when their minds were downloaded into the bodies. They don't believe in such things. It's just living metal and circuitry, nothing supernatural about it. Might as well turn a BMW or an iron girder into a gibbering lump of flesh.

Machine Spirit is both a superstitious gibbering and renamed AI. To the Imperium, anything mechanical is guided by a Machine Spirit. So if you don't respect the spirit in your lasgun with keeping the gun clean and oiled, it'll get angry and jam your gun. Then there's the traditional AI, from the basic calculators to the advanced that go mad and try to reduce humanity into ash (Men of Iron, Dreadclaw boarding crafts). And then there's the Imperial decree of having biological stuff within the machinery, such as servitors and AIs that use actual living brain matter within them (I think Land Raiders have such things).

Tau Drones are nothing but AI's. So the only machine withing the ones I've mentioned to actually having a soul is the Wraithguard/lord, but their souls are stored within soulstones which are designed to protect them from Chaos. So I doubt a mere sorcerer can in the middle of battle home in on the eldar soul within the durable wraithguard body and tap into it in order to turn it into a gibbering blob of flesh.


There is one of them called Tzeentch, the manipulater. Who have more cunning plans than what a mortal would ever be able to imagine. And being able to manipulate with absolutely everyone, if he sets his mind to it (and therefor also "your" mind).
Except the C'Tan, who are may be even better. Not only did they almost eradicate the entire galaxy void of life, but destroyed the Old Ones and their empire, sent the galaxy into 65 000 000 years of darkness, have come up with devices that hold back the Eye of Terror, are even able to employ anti-warp technologies, are totally outside of the realm of the Chaos Gods as they're 100% real space (Tzeentch can't manipulate them), implanted the concept and fear of death into every sentient creature in the universe and field an undying army of things that can strike anywhere anytime without the need for elaborate rituals, weak spots within the fabric of space or a timecard on how long their bodies will hold out.

How do you turn such a thing into a spawn? How do you turn pure, corporeal energy into a spawn. Might as well turn a lightning bolt into one. Or a Pariah, who is actually anti-Chaos, a void, a blank spot that all sorcerers dread. That's like shooting at a black hole.


He would be able to rule the entire universe in a blink of an eye, he just dosnt want it.
Hey, I have something in common with Tzeentch. I can rule the entire universe in a blink of an eye. You're forgetting that at least in WHFB Khorne is the most powerful god with the power to destroy the world with his mighty sword. Tzeentch is just a bookworm in comparison, so is a creep like that gonna outmatch the mighty Khorne?

Thommy H
18-08-2008, 16:28
Except that there is no such thing as "humanoid" in the game rules. It's a really simple situation: they used to have exceptions like this, but it brought up too many questions. If Undead models aren't affected, does that mean Necromancers are immune? Aren't they just evil human wizards? What about ghouls? Pretty soon, you're filling army lists with pointless definitions explaining how poison (or whatever) affects every kind of model. Why even bother with a blanket rule in the first place if it's applied so inconsistently?

So, in order to deal with this, they added in that little line that explains how there are "poisons" that can affect Undead and Daemons too (i.e. blessed water) and it's assumed that your models have the required substance to hand. The justification works for anything similar. It prevents every rule being a list of exceptions.

EDIT: Another, more important reason this rule is in place: it prevents points being thrown away on something useless. If poison doesn't work on Undead, then the x points spent on poison attacks is wasted if you happen to face someone with an Undead army in a tournament or pick-up game. Similarly, Morthai, if her powers don't work on [whatever] is going to be too expensive against [whatever] army. You can't charge a fair points cost for abilities that don't work on arbitrary targets.

Malorian
18-08-2008, 16:30
Some times these silly things just have to be accepted for the smooth playing of the game.

Otherwise, if we did away with generalities, the rule book would be several times the size it is now (and not just pretty pictures... just pages and pages on how each rule effects each model).

Dead Man Walking
18-08-2008, 17:01
If you find this topic worth arguing over then you need to sit back and huff some glue. Smile and enjoy life a little. ;)

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 17:13
Or stop huffing glue.
*puts his super glue bottle away and waits for a moment*
Oh man, there's like an ocean of negative wibes here, dude.
*goes away*

logan054
18-08-2008, 17:20
EDIT: Another, more important reason this rule is in place: it prevents points being thrown away on something useless. If poison doesn't work on Undead, then the x points spent on poison attacks is wasted if you happen to face someone with an Undead army in a tournament or pick-up game. Similarly, Morthai, if her powers don't work on [whatever] is going to be too expensive against [whatever] army. You can't charge a fair points cost for abilities that don't work on arbitrary targets.

I dont see the difference between that and KB witch only effected certain models, if for example i play a ogre army and i have bought KB then havent i wasted points?

Actually thats the only thing that really bugs me, how less and less models are effected by KB (ghrr).

prince_dios
18-08-2008, 17:24
1: Yeah, it sucks that 5 cold one rides are 24 bucks and 5 dark riders are 50 bucks. But they have been doing two waves of releases for each army, lately. There's always hope.

2: GW has been trending away from making exceptions to each rule. IE, poison affects undead because they just assume that the troops bring holy water or something instead.

That said, if one special character's rule is the biggest grip you have, I think GW's put together a pretty good army book...

Thommy H
18-08-2008, 19:23
I dont see the difference between that and KB witch only effected certain models, if for example i play a ogre army and i have bought KB then havent i wasted points?

Actually thats the only thing that really bugs me, how less and less models are effected by KB (ghrr).

No, because the Killing Blow rule is tied to the basic mechanics of the game (it only works on US 1 models). Saying that poison doesn't work on "Undead" or that Morthai's ability doesn't work on [whole slew of models] introduces an arbitrary distinction that is not taken into account in the points cost of Morthai or those models.

gorenut
18-08-2008, 19:57
As already mentioned more than once in this thread.. anything you don't agree with in fluff/logic terms.. just blame it on magic.

logan054
18-08-2008, 20:10
Why are you mentioning Morthai? i didnt mention her in my post, anyways while you are right your originally analogy is flawed for the reason i said, points being wasted, im sorry but this is a common thing in warhammer and KB being useless against ogres (thus being a waste) is really no different than poison be useless on Undead (not that it is). Really for the same reasons poison works on many things KB really should (bat perhaps large targets).

At the end of the day it something that bugs me that way GW is changing warhammer cool things such as KB are just be coming redundant while others becoming far to common (ASF springs to mind, ITP, etc).

Zoolander
18-08-2008, 20:20
Except that there is no such thing as "humanoid" in the game rules. It's a really simple situation: they used to have exceptions like this, but it brought up too many questions. If Undead models aren't affected, does that mean Necromancers are immune? Aren't they just evil human wizards? What about ghouls? Pretty soon, you're filling army lists with pointless definitions explaining how poison (or whatever) affects every kind of model. Why even bother with a blanket rule in the first place if it's applied so inconsistently?


Not quite. Necromancers and ghouls would be immune because they are immune to psychology. They can simply state that anything on a base size larger than the standard size (mounts, monsters, ogres, what have you), could be immune as well. Problem solved. No need for explanations, FAQs or anything else. You're just making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Arnizipal
18-08-2008, 20:20
Why are you mentioning Morthai? i didnt mention her in my postPlease read the very first post of this thread ;)

Thommy H
18-08-2008, 20:31
im sorry but this is a common thing in warhammer and KB being useless against ogres (thus being a waste)

But things like immunity from KB is built into the cost of US2+ models - it's a feature of the KB rule and those models inherent in the system. Immunity to poison/Morthai's ability/anything else that "seems wrong" is not built into the cost of Undead (because they'd then be too expensive against armies with no access to those abilities). It's the difference between a systematic immunity and arbitrary immunity - being US2+ has more than the effect of being immune to KB, it has other advantages.


Necromancers and ghouls would be immune because they are immune to psychology. They can simply state that anything on a base size larger than the standard size (mounts, monsters, ogres, what have you), could be immune as well. Problem solved. No need for explanations, FAQs or anything else. You're just making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Why would Ogres be immune (they have big bases)? Why would Grail Knights (they're Immune to Psychology)? I can think of reasons that these two examples might be immune (see my earlier list of examples), but if you can justify them being immune then you can justify almost anything being immune - which was the purpose of my humorous list in the first place. Ultimately, if we start injecting personal opinions on our models into the debate, the rule's not going to apply to anyone is it?

Grunge
18-08-2008, 21:20
Just pass the damn LD test.

Freak Ona Leash
18-08-2008, 21:35
Freak agrees with Grunge. So much in fact, that his agreement made him talk in the third-person again. Oh, woe is Freak...

logan054
18-08-2008, 21:43
Please read the very first post of this thread ;)

Im very aware what the first post said, i happen to agree that its to make things simple, i just posted something that annoys me, sorry for voicing a opinion, i try not to in future.


But things like immunity from KB is built into the cost of US2+ models - it's a feature of the KB rule and those models inherent in the system. Immunity to poison/Morthai's ability/anything else that "seems wrong" is not built into the cost of Undead (because they'd then be too expensive against armies with no access to those abilities). It's the difference between a systematic immunity and arbitrary immunity - being US2+ has more than the effect of being immune to KB, it has other advantages.

Thing is that the pricing for units from what i understand is what feels right rather than having strict formula, so i dont think we can say what is truly taken into account with the pricing of units, its not a perfect system to begin with.

LaughinGremlin
18-08-2008, 21:50
This "enchanting beauty" allows for some great imaginary moments. Every time your Morathi comes into contact with an enemy model , the opponent should be asked to imagine whatever the enemy model is most attracted to...

i.e. A Slann Mage would see a very sexy Slaan Mama or a huge bowl of doable tapioca pudding.

As for the comment earlier about a gay high elf, we all know what he'd "thee." Afterall, Morathi got her name from a gay elf who wanted to see more assi.

Defender of Ulthuan
18-08-2008, 22:21
Geeze, see what a simple forum-rant gets you?

Well ANYWAY, I agree with the thought that it could still have an effect upon friendly models, and also that it is, for the most part, a null issue, with its incongruity of occurrance.

However, I still stand by my original thought that, although she is beguilingly hot, ITP units should remain unaffected.

As to seeing whatever you want, she is beautiful, especially so with the enhancement from her magic cauldron o'hotness, but mortal eyes still see only her. She's not Slannesh for the dark gods' sake! (or maybe I'm completely wrong lol? if so I'm sorry for the snarkiness in advance)

All I want is a clause for not affecting those blessed with ITP!!!!!!
(Oh, and please resist the urge to make complete fools of yourselves [you know who you are] and get into angry arguments in this thread, fair enough?)

Thanks for all the posts,
Defender

Malakai
19-08-2008, 09:08
Did you ever consider that you might have your priorities in life a bit skewed?

And I would guess that the reason the rule effects skeletons and lizardmen and tomb scorpions is to avoid a whole page of exceptions since you could probably come up with a reason that every model in the game wouldn't be affected if you wanted.

Examples off the top of my head:

"My Grail Knights are chaste and virtuous; they are married only to The Lady and would never be attracted to an elf witch."

"My peasants are superstitious and prejudiced, they would find any elven female disgusting."

"My Griffon is not attracted to any humanoids at all."

"My Chaos Warriors only care about killing, not having sex."

"My Greatswords are converted Cathayan Eunuchs, so obviously the rule shouldn't apply to them."

"My Slayers only care about meeting death in battle, and hate all elves anyway."

"My Vampire Lord is a Lhamian seductress - she's sexier than Morthai."

"My Wardancer Highborn is gay."

And so on...

By far the coolest post I've ever seen. Just when I thought nothing could repel whining of the OT's magnitude.:evilgrin:

-Malakai