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Joe Kutz
17-08-2008, 23:25
Given the resurgence of the Necrons - what do you suppose would happen if more than one Craftworld went to war against them (perhaps to prevent the awakening of another C'Tan) and each brought there Avatar?

Since they are both fragments of Khaine - would they join together and form a super avatar? Given the nature of gods in 40K - seems like a reasonable outcome. Perhaps getting all the craftworlds to bring there Avatars out would create a being powerful enough to destroy a C'Tan for good...

Anywho, just a thought.

Goruax
17-08-2008, 23:29
Potentially. But then who would take the Avatar home again? Or would it fracture after the battle/war?

Regardless, I think you should write a Datesheet for Apocalypse for it :D

Joe Kutz
17-08-2008, 23:34
Thats the thing - I don't think that the Avatar "exists" like an object to be taken home with you. I think it is more of a psychic construct...similar to a summoned daemon. When killed or no longer needed, it simply disappears until war requires the Craftworld to call it forth again (presumably through some form of blood sacrifice as hinted to in the Young King tale in the various Eldar codices).

The FW avatar model would work nicely (significantly larger than a normal avatar).

The Venerable Archmage
17-08-2008, 23:47
Each craftworld has, physically, a single avatar. This is just an inert metal shell enthroned in a specially appointed chamber near the heart of the craftworld. When the craftworld mobilizes for war and the Young King is sacrificed, the essence of Khaine is awakened in the avatar's physical form, and it becomes animated. I tend to think of it as a sort of daemonic possession, only instead of some gribbly possessing a tank, it's Khaine possessing a statue.

If there were two craftworlds in a single theatre of war, then each would presumably have their own avatar shells ready for awakening as two seperate avatars. However, I suspect such a gathering of eldar is practically unprecedented, so it would be equally plausible that something weird might happen, like the merger of the two to form a bigger, badder avatar, although seperating them afterwards might be a problem.

Perhaps if enough were gathered together in a single place (say, at Rhanda Dandra...) the shards of Khaine might begin to be reunited, but that's just ridiculous speculation on my part. Hmm, there's an idea for an Apocalypse game.

Slaaneshi Slave
18-08-2008, 00:24
If all the shards were gathered together it is possible Khaine might be reborn, but alas that wont happen as too many have been lost.

Malevon
18-08-2008, 01:55
Possibly, but each Avatar is still a physical statue. While they are animated by a shard of Khaine's soul, the physical statue itself isn't itself the shard. But maybe still, I don't know.

Messiah
18-08-2008, 10:52
Hmm, I always thought of it as the Avatar possessing the young King. The process of awakening the Avatar is never described other than the young Kings preparationg IIRC.

ctsteel
18-08-2008, 11:26
the suggestion of the avatars joining form makes me think of Voltron or those transformers that linked together to make a big one (like the constructicons I think).

I'd imagine them both stepping through the webway portal, looking at each other and snarling a bit in recognition, then stomping forward into carnage side by side. They are both shards of Khaine but still bound into separate forms, and linked to separate craft worlds so I kind of imagine them as having become slightly disparate over time and therefore a bit like clones/twins separated at birth, with their own idiosyncrasies and such.

Given they are both parts of the god of war, they might even have developed something of an attitude that doesn't like "competition" and so might even take issue with another avatar being on the same battlefield as 'their battle'. Like two dogs trying to be alpha male.

Revlid
18-08-2008, 12:12
I have this image of multiple Avatars linking together like Zords. Forming arms, head, etc.

Saul T
18-08-2008, 12:51
I have this image of multiple Avatars linking together like Zords. Forming arms, head, etc.

That is an image I had. Would be fun.

I know there is a limited in the army lists but I can't remember ever seeing a reason in the fluff as to why there couldn't be more than one avatar. Just be a very rare occurance. I suppose two avatars could end up fighting each other if 2 craftworlds went to war against each other.

I've a thought that at the final battle of the galaxy all the avatars merge and the god khaine is remade whole again.

EDIT: Sorry Slaaneshi Slave. Just noticed you posted the Khaine idea already.

olmsted
18-08-2008, 13:15
im on the side line of the bigger badder avatar. i would think it impossible for literally the essence of a god to stay so close to each other yet seperate.

Adra
18-08-2008, 13:32
I have this image of multiple Avatars linking together like Zords. Forming arms, head, etc.

Amazing. Go Go Power Eldar!!!!!

Do you think that, just like in Power Rangers, the bad guy will use dark powers to supersize their monster only for the linked Avatar's to tan its ass?

That plan never worked....why did they keep trying it? God baddies are rubbish.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
18-08-2008, 13:48
888pts bloodthirster?
No problem!
Avatars, combine!

daemonkin
18-08-2008, 14:12
Mighty Morphing Power Avatars...

D.

Cheesolith
18-08-2008, 20:38
I think the shards encased in the statues would just burst out of their cocoons and merge together in the host that's in the best condition. If they ever bring all avatars together and piece their god back together, which would be a huge asset on the battlefield but will most likely get pwned again the next time the nightbringer shows it's face again. The last time he only survived because somebody else tipped him on the nightbringer's weakness, something he will not fall for again.

Yayale
18-08-2008, 20:44
ok i havn't read much of the fluff on this subject but your even stating it here. Each craftword has a statue type thing which is kind of possessed by khaine; in which case surely only one statue could ever be animated at a given time, meaning there would be no morphing or super khaines milling around just a single one. Just my thoughts, again I haven't read much of the fluff.

MrBigMr
18-08-2008, 20:45
Damn you people, you've taken all the good responses. All I have left is this stupid one:
"Avatars assemble!"
*morph morph morph*
"Mega-Khaine!"

Slaaneshi Slave
18-08-2008, 20:48
Except the Nightbringer has been starved for the last 65 million years, so he is hardly at the peak of his power. Khaine fought Slaanesh, freshly devouring an entire species to a stand still. I think it would be a fairly good fight between the two. Khaine would be considerably weaker, but so is the Night Bringer.

Malevon
19-08-2008, 00:27
ok i havn't read much of the fluff on this subject but your even stating it here. Each craftword has a statue type thing which is kind of possessed by khaine; in which case surely only one statue could ever be animated at a given time, meaning there would be no morphing or super khaines milling around just a single one. Just my thoughts, again I haven't read much of the fluff.
Khaine doesn't exist as a coherent entity anymore. His soul was shattered into many shards, and each Avatar is animated by one shard. There is no debate as to whether more than one can be active in the galaxy at a time, just as to whether or not the Avatars would physically join because they are both animated by shards of the soul of the same entity, or stay separate because of physical limitations.

Joe Kutz
19-08-2008, 02:13
The myth is that Khaine was shattered into many shards, correct.

It doesn't quite pass the sniff test for me though, and would seem to be too straight forward of a tale for GW. Each craftworld (and potentially Exodite world as well - though they have never been addressed in detail by GW) would have had to construct a room prior to Khaine being destroyed. Of course, the shards could have migrated through space to the locations and formed the rooms, throne and statues by divine might...

Anywho, that is a different discussion altogether. I myself kind of favor the idea that the Avatars can join together, and perhaps that was part of the great plan foreseen by the Farseers when they fled before the fall. It would explain why all the Craftworlds have the Avatar - knowing that they wouldn't be able to control their gods as they did in the past to fight great enemies like the Necrons (and seeing them coming back in some unknown time in the future). By scattering the fragments of the psychic essence of Khaine in physical shells aboard all the Craftworlds they could ensure that their greatest weapons were never completely destroyed by their enemies...

ctsteel
19-08-2008, 07:26
the shards of Khaine's essence may have lodged themselves in the craftworlds' infinity circuits initially, at which point the eldar would have discovered them and sought to build the avatars to hold them from then on.

Assuming they had the IC at that point in the struggle against chaos/slaanesh

Joe Kutz
19-08-2008, 08:18
The way the Infinity circuit is described in a lot of the fluff seems to indicate that it would have already existed in pre-fall Eldar technology. Following the fall, they seem to have adapted it to not only provide power and communications through a large ship for example - but also to act as a safe haven for the Eldar souls.

Sai-Lauren
19-08-2008, 14:59
Thats the thing - I don't think that the Avatar "exists" like an object to be taken home with you. I think it is more of a psychic construct...similar to a summoned daemon. When killed or no longer needed, it simply disappears until war requires the Craftworld to call it forth again (presumably through some form of blood sacrifice as hinted to in the Young King tale in the various Eldar codices).

Nope, there is a physical avatar sat on a throne in the heart of the craftworld. The Young King is sacrificed to wake it up, and if it is "killed" (or at the end of the campaign) it fades out and reappears on the throne - presumably, it would need another sacrifice to reawaken it.

Two (or more) craftworlds in the same campaign could easily have their avatars awoken, and take to the field alongside each other, especially against a group of Keepers of Secrets - you don't get a super-Bloodthirster etc if you have more than one on the battlefield.

If you like, think of it that each shard is an aspect of the whole of Khaine, and has subconciously influenced the craftworld where it resides - one craftworld - Saim-Hann maybe, may have had the berserk warrior shard, another (say Alaitoc) the ambush predator shard, Altansar got the Reaper shard and so on.



If all the shards were gathered together it is possible Khaine might be reborn, but alas that wont happen as too many have been lost.

Depends, if the surviving shards recombine, there could be enough "power" there to recover the remainder and resurrect Khaine - the Phoenix Lords could be out looking for the remainder of the lost craftworlds and recovering the shards.

Although how to get the one back from the Slaaneshi corrupted craftworld in the Daemons codex is a good question - might even do that as an Eldar army at some point. ;)



It doesn't quite pass the sniff test for me though, and would seem to be too straight forward of a tale for GW. Each craftworld (and potentially Exodite world as well - though they have never been addressed in detail by GW) would have had to construct a room prior to Khaine being destroyed. Of course, the shards could have migrated through space to the locations and formed the rooms, throne and statues by divine might...

How about each shard passed into a single eldar on each craftworld, who became the first Young King/Avatar, then had the rooms built, wrote down the rituals, and their armour eventually reformed itself (presumably it's a form of Wraithbone) into that which the Avatar now has?

Exodite worlds might have something closer to the concept of Gaia/Earth Mother for their avatars - maybe an Avatrix, possibly an animalistic form (more like a protective spirit) - especially if the exodite worlds attracted the baser, more animalistic shards.

Or maybe the world itself becomes the Avatar, defending itself through natural phenomena (earthquakes, weather patterns), the animals, plants and so on - how do you fight an enemy when the world itself is trying to kill you?

NearsightedFarseer
20-08-2008, 01:11
I could see the physical shell start as a plain statue for worship purpose, but post fall it was a logical housing for a shard.
If destroyed, the shell and shard could theoretically phase out to the craftworld of origin.
On another note, a broken alliance game with 3 avatars is an interesting experience...

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2008, 02:59
Not wraithbone, necrodermis IIRC. The avatars are little different from a C'tan. They're just sexier and covered in magma and gore...and they have screaming swords and epic helmet/heads. They're pretty much uber death tiki.

General Squeek Squeek
20-08-2008, 06:54
It would be so bad ass to see khaine completely resurrected in this way. I'd imagine there could be some great fluff to go along with it too. Don't think I'd want to see it being played on the tabletop any more then I'd want to see a primarch, but would make for a great novel about the craftworlds slowly searching to gather all the shards in their sneaky eldar fashion of course.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-08-2008, 07:18
The only way I can see Khaine reborn is when the Eldar bring all the Infinity and World circuits together to form their God of the Dead (can't remember the name of the top of my head). God of the Dead forms, and since all the Craftworlds and essences of Eldar are together, Khaine reforms. Both are really pissed because almost their entire species are extinct, and go kick Slaaneshs ass. Theoretically, if Khaine were to be reborn exactly how he was when he shattered himself he would absolutely annhililate Slaanesh. It is said Slaanesh was the single most powerful being the Warp had ever seen at her birth, having just absorbed an entire species, and yet Khaine still fought her to a stand still. It would be interesting. Much more interesting than the Emperor reborn.

Since the Dark Eldar and Harlequins have no part in the end game of creating a new God (they have no infinity/world circuits) perhaps they would survive it's creation. With Slaanesh dead the souls of all those dead Eldar would possibly be released, allowing the new God to become the God of Life (or something), and allow the Eldar to once again be reincarnated. Perhaps this is the role the Craftworld Eldar forsee for the Dark Kin, and perhaps that is why the Dark Kin do not start using Soul Stone / Infinity Circuit technology.

EDIT. I really like this theory! This way the warp is calmer, making it safer for everybody, the Eldar are growing again (albeit there are not many left), and there is somebody to stand up to the C'tan. I'm sure Khaine would LOVE another round with todays weakened Nightbringer!

Rockerfella
28-08-2008, 22:02
SS, Asuryan!! The Eldar souls consumed by Slaanesh upon release, would form the Phoenix King. Reborn from the ashes and all that! hehe! Who then gets REALLY pissed and goes to kick someones cosmic butt!

I like your idea SS!

Helsing
28-08-2008, 23:47
Probably not. If the Avatars of Khaine could have been reforged into the Eldar God of War than the Eldar would already have done so.

Helsing.

Qualdinesh
29-08-2008, 00:53
I can just picture two avatars one standing on the others shoulder asking. "are we doing this right?"

Azriel45
01-09-2008, 15:13
i'm in favor of the thought that each avatar embodies a different aspect of Khaine, much the same way that the aspect warriors do.
Instead of one big avatar, you'd get a group of them working together in a unit.