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Atrahasis
18-08-2008, 11:12
I wanted to take a combined arms Empire list to the GT, not too hard but able to put up enough of a fight to get me through to the Final.

I'd love to drop the War Altar, but it makes such a huge difference that spending the 100 points anywhere else just leads to a vastly inferior list.

Arch Lector [291]
Biting Blade, VHS, Shield of the Gorgon
Heavy Armour, War Altar

Level 2 Wizard, Rod of Power [130]

Level 2 Wizard [100]

Battle Standard Bearer [127]
Doomfire Ring
Barded Warhorse, Full Plate

23 Swordsmen, Full Command [163]
9 Free Company [45]
5 Archers [40]

23 Spearmen, Full Command [158]
9 Free Company [45]
5 Archers [40]

5 Knights [115]
5 Knights [115]

12 Flagellants, Prophet [130]

2 Great Cannon [200]

5 Pistoliers, Musician [97]
5 Outriders, Musician [113]

8 Flagellants, Prophet [90]

1999 points, 6 power and 6 dispel dice, 2 bound.

If the detachments count as core units for Total Annihilation, then I'll be taking something else.

I'm working from memory, so some of the points costs may be a bit off (the knights may be able to afford musicians, for example).

Any thoughts?

Uriain
18-08-2008, 13:12
I have stared at this list for about 10 min now, as I am drinking my tea at work here. I like the list.. Normally I am not a big fan of the War Alter/VHS combo, as alot of people find it to be very.....well you know. But I can respect the fact that you want to drop it, but it makes the list weaker for the way you are playing it.

My only real question, is why is there 2 units of Flagellants, both of which are fairly small. To me (and I don't play empire, but play against an empire opponent who uses 24 Flagellants) a bigger unit would help you out more. Plus it would give you rock solid center.

Just my thoughts though.

Gokamok
18-08-2008, 13:14
I'd recommend taking Swordsmen instead of Spearmen any day of the week, 4+ AS is your friend:D

What is your plan with the 2 small units of Flagellants? I can see them acting as nice speedbumps, but they risk getting shot quite easy, or get overrun on the charge by powerful units. Unless you have had very good experiences with small units of these boys, I'd probably switch them for knights, Pistoliers or more infantry.

I think you should consider a Seal of Destruction for one of your wizards. 50% chance to destroy Invocation of Nehek from the "LOL I can use 8 dice a turn with +2 to my roll" Vampire Lord is just a golden opportunity, especially since there'll likely be quite a bit of VC players at the GT.

eleveninches
18-08-2008, 13:18
Which units were you planning on capturing objectives with?

For scenario 1, YOu do realise that you have 24 kill points possible. Its would be quite easy to kill your special and rare choices and make your swordsmen run away, and then that's 16 kill points and game over.

Caboose123
18-08-2008, 14:50
2 bound?
2 from the Lector, 1 from the War Altar, 1 from the Doomfire Ring... I counts 4...

For various reasons I just don't like the list... :p

I don't like the Items on his Holiness, Biting Blade?... VHS + Shield of the Gorgon is nasty, but IIRC you should be able to afford a nce big thwacking stick on him... :)
I dislike the Rod of Power, I think Power Stones or Dispel Scrolls would be better, or the Casket that steals spells...
I would go for 2 swordsmen units (of 25, with attached guys, so a 5x5 formation) you want to limit casualties with these guys.
I like the 2 knight units and the Pistoliers and Outriders. The Outriders will need protection though. I like giving both Pistoliers and Outriders unit champions.
I would put the flaggelants together in 1 unit. 2 small units can be killed too easily IMHO. They will be handy for tying up their strongest units and pack some firepower if they charge.

Atrahasis
18-08-2008, 16:50
Ok, the major criticisms:

Flagellants in smallish units : I've always found that two small units is a better spend of 220 points than one large unit. They offer more tactical flexibility, and two prophets are better than one.

Spears : The vast majority of my collection consists of halberdiers. I only have ~30 swords and ~30 spears, so it's a unit of each. The spears have shields, so they're only lacking 1WS if I choose to go defensive.

4 bounds instead of 2 : I don't tend to count the Lector's prayers when I'm building a list, as they really only come into their own in the later stages of the game.

Biting Blade : I had 5 points left over and wanted magical attacks :) I considered a bigger thwacker but the VHS+Shield only leave 45 points for it, and I don't know what I'd drop to justify +2 strength or +1S ASF. I could drop the Shield and Blade for the Mace of Ubiquity, but I'd have to free up 30 points, and most things are pretty sleek already.

No scrolls/seal : I don't take scrolls. I just don't...


Which units were you planning on capturing objectives with?I have plenty of US5 units, and I'll be relying on neutralising enemy capturing units and defending my own objectives than an all out assault.


For scenario 1, YOu do realise that you have 24 kill points possible. Its would be quite easy to kill your special and rare choices and make your swordsmen run away, and then that's 16 kill points and game over.

I count 19:

6 for characters
5 for core
7 for special
1 for rare

Special+Rare+S****men = 10

As I say, if the detachments count as 1 each for TA then I'm taking something else (not Empire).

Caboose123
18-08-2008, 22:27
Beating down characters with *just* their stats could backfire on you (If they accept the challenge with their unit champion, for example...)... It would mean cutting points from what is a well tuned list... Still, I like the +1 S ASF option to me :)

You like flaggies in 2 low strength units? Well MSU could work, you need to be able to flank with those knights quickly though...

Lack of models... I sympathise... They can choose sword/shield if they need to... Think if instead of minus 1 Ws its minus 1 T, its a pretty big deal, and this is the difference it will make for the majority (Ws4) enemies. Still, Spears have their uses, good against Zombies/Slaves/Gnoblars that are just thrown at you.

I think the seal is under rated... Aldred's casket I think its called. You mages hide in your units, which will be moving forward. Their mages will be in their units (cos of the 2 cannons). Those units will prolly be marching forward. Seems likely that at some stage the 2 will come within 12", then you can "mindrape" them on a 4+, and another Bound Spell, w00t. Still just my 2c... And no scrolls? I won't ask...

Early on, the only real Lore of Light spell that will help is Guardian Light (D6 S4 isn't THAT great IMHO), which is a good spell, but isn't really helpful outside close range anyway, besides your army does plan on getting stuck in nice and early! The 2 spells he does carry are quite strong themselves.


I've never played WH competetivley though...

Atrahasis
18-08-2008, 22:38
The casket and seal are two different things. The seal is an auto-dispel item that destroys the cast spell on a 4+.
I love the casket, I really do, and normally take a captain on pegasus to take it to the enemy, but the BSB is vital.

If I knock the outriders down to pistoliers, and drop a couple of models from the blocks I can squeeze the Mace in in place of the Shield+Blade, so I might playtest that a couple of times.

Guardian Light is ItP within 12", which is certainly helpful, but Burning Gaze is also handy if there's not much damage (panic) or terror about the place early on.
Hammer of Sigmar is very useful for mages I suppose.

Thanks for the feedback :)

Kalec
19-08-2008, 03:04
I prefer VHS, meteoric iron, and the sword of sigisimund for my lector, but the gorgon shield is good too. I prefer a war priest over a captain, because the extra dispel die and bound spell is just too good, not to mention giving one of your blocks hatred.

I would have to agree that one big flagellant block is far better then two smaller blocks. The martyr ability, which is how they win combats, needs a big block to be effective, and cutting the rare flagellants would help your killpoints issue. The points saved from dropping a prophet could go towards a musician for a knight unit.

Atrahasis
19-08-2008, 06:55
The two units of flagellants are worth 2 points total. The large unit is core, the small unit is less than 100 points.

Martyring is a waste of time for any sized block.

Caboose123
19-08-2008, 12:12
The point of his flaggelants sint to win combat, so they dont use the martyr ability. I dislike using flaggies this way, but it could be just as effective.

I meant the casket thing, not the seal :)

I like Kalec's choice of equipment on the Lector...

In this list the outriders are the only unit that stand back and shoot. The rest should prolly be moving forward meaning: With 24" guns they may need to move forward for 1 turn, there may have to be a hill in the centre of the board or LOS will be obstructed... I'm not sure, Pistoliers with a musician will be able to lure chargers and harass enemies flanks (cos you need more of that in this list :))

Atrahasis
19-08-2008, 13:13
Updated list : changed the magic items around a bit, switched the Outriders to Pistoliers.

The Outriders I'm not sure about, as while they are the only (non-war machine) unit that would be standing still, they're still very mobile, and can put 15 shots anywhere within 24". I'm thinking they're very good anti-support, taking out the fast cav and flyers that would otherwise be looking for easy points from the Cannon.

I'll just have to playtest I think :)

2000 Pts - Empire Army

Arch Lector of Sigmar @ 324 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield
Van Horstman's Speculum
The Mace of Helstrum
War Altar

Battle Wizard @ 130 Pts
Magic Level 2
Rod of Power

Battle Wizard @ 100 Pts
Magic Level 2

1 Captain @ 127 Pts
Barding; Full Plate Armor; Battle Standard; Warhorse
Doomfire Ring

22 Swordsmen @ 157 Pts
Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Duellist
9 Free Company @ 45 Pts
5 Archers @ 40 Pts

21 Spearmen @ 231 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Sergeant
9 Free Company @ 45 Pts
5 Archers @ 40 Pts

12 Flagellant Warbands (Core) @ 130 Pts
Prophet

5 Knightly Orders @ 115 Pts
5 Knightly Orders @ 115 Pts

1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts

5 Pistoliers @ 97 Pts
Musician

5 Pistoliers @ 97 Pts
Musician

8 Flagellant Warbands @ 90 Pts
Prophet

Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 124
Total Army Cost: 1998