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Helsing
18-08-2008, 22:53
The history of the 1st Founding Legions eludes to the loss of their Primarchs and the belief that they will return at the end of eternity.

For the Ultramarines it was Roboute Guilliman who fell to the poison of Alpharius and for ten thousand years has been believed to be healing.
For the Imperial Fists they believe Rogal Dorn fell to the Black Legion, though he his ever at the edge of their dreams and racial consciousness. For the Ravenguard Corax is though to be searching for the soul of the Emperor in Hell. The White Scars lost Jhagati Khan to the Dark Eldar and believes he endures torment from the Kabal of the Black Heart. Lion El' Jonson is theorized to be leading the Fallen in a quest for redemption, for he believes himself and his hunted sons to be unforgiven. And Leman Russ is said to have led the Wulfen on a quest to find Magnus and carry out his Father's last command. However their are chapters whose Primarchs are gone. Sanguinas, for example, was slain at the hands of Horus in his fall. Vulcan is thought lost as is Ferrus Manus, though some believed he was rebuilt as a sentient machine on Mars and his slowly regaining his mind.

Another theory is that the Chaos Primarchs will be reborn. Mortarion, Magnus, Perturabo and Horus, but as a darker entity, the very same entity that has plagued man since the first millennium. The same entity that was Archaon, The Fallen, the true form of Chaos.

The question is, how will they return?

Malevon
18-08-2008, 23:27
Where did you get the information that the original legions believe their Primarchs will return? I know the Space Wolves and probably the others whose Primarchs are simply missing do, but I've never heard talk of the return of the Primarchs who are legitimately dead.

I also doubt the Chaos Primarchs would "return," as most of them are still alive. Horus and Konrad are dead, but Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Perturabo, Magnus, and Lorgar are all Daemon Princes. Either Alpharius, Omegon, or both are still at large, directing the activities of their legion.

Gdolkin
18-08-2008, 23:39
Interesting thread idea buddy, but I'd advise you to be clearer about what is canon and what is fan speculation (you may even be asked for sources), and whether you're asking for canon 'facts' or seeking to inspire fan specualtion, as warseer seems a little.. testy, just lately..
Now then,
Guilliman was poisoned by Fulgrim. He is kept in a stasis field on Macragge, and the wound to his throat still appears wet. As to whether he is stone dead or slowly healing, and just what a stasis field is and how it works, is a hot debate and a thread of it's own. Search it up :)
Rogal Dorn was either killed or disappeared during the first Black Crusade, on a Chaos warship, presumably of the Black Legion, I'm not sure. Some say they found his body, others say just his hand. Same issues and advice as per Guilliman applies..
Corax disappeared after botching his attempt to rebuild his Legion by accelerating the process of creating Astartes, resulting in deformed abominations. He personally euthanased each and every one of them, locked himself in his tower for a bit, then buggered off in the direction of the Eye, saying only "Nevermore". This searching for the soul of the Emperor in Hell bit is news to me..
Khan disappeared into the Webway, chasing Dark Eldar. Dunno what the White Scars think about that exactly.
Jonson is, if anything, stated from an external, God's-eye perspective to be held deep inside an inaccessible chamber within the Rock, the Dark Angels' fortress. The Dark Angels are unaware of this, I believe.
Russ suddenly got up and left the Fang, on Fenris, heading in the direction of the Eye, saying only that he would return "for the final battle, for the Wolftime."
Sanguinius very dead.
Vulkan disappeared at Isstvan V, no body recovered.
Ferrus Manus very dead, head cut off by Fulgrim. This is the hardest thing in all 40k lore for me to accept..
Horus very very dead, forsaken by the Chaos Gods, super-killed and soul-obliterated by the Emperor.
Mortarion, Magnus and Perturabo are all chilling in the Eye of Terror, already 'reborn' as Daemon Princes.
If you're alluding to Archaon the Everchosen from Fantasy, watch out, cos there's been a fair bit of 'whether the two are linked? They're not' going on and it derails threads.
All just friendly clarification :) Back to your question:
How will they return?

olmsted
18-08-2008, 23:52
Omegon, who the hell is this?

Russ says he will return from whatever stage of death he is bound in and return during the wolf time.... sounds like this puppy is not goig to die anytime soon.

vulkan and dorn would be great primarchs to come back. i know that russ and vulkan would be a great help to the imperium as they were both very kind to the people of the imperium

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
18-08-2008, 23:58
Your informations is flawed, and a fair bit of it reeks of fan-invention...

Dorn is dead, and his body (in whole or in part) was recovered. He headed off an early Black Crusade almost singlehandedly. Pretty epic.
Corax disappeared into the Eye of Terror.
Khan was not captured. He pursued the Dark Eldar into the Webway on his own terms, and is believed to be at large in there today.
The Lion sleeps, in the deepest chambers of the Rock, attended by the Watchers.
All that is known about Russ is that his armor was found near the Cadian Gate, and that he will eventually return, for the Wolftime.
Vulcan disappeared on Istaavan V, fate unknown.
Ferrus Manus is quite dead, killed and beheaded by Fulgrim.

As for the Traitors...
Most have ascended to Daemonhood, and have their own planet in the Eye to enjoy.
Horus, on the other hand, was totally lolpwnd by the Big E, total existence failure, and all that.

Slightly ninja'd, but points are valid, and true. A bit of explanation as to the point of this thread would be nice, too. Also, you misused "elude", verb, to escape or avoid. You're looking for allude, verb, to reference or suggeust connection.;)


Omegon, who the hell is this?


Oh, dear. Spoiler time.
Omegon is Alpharius's ubertwin, "two souls, one body" style. Yes, the Alpha Legion has two primirachs. There. Yes, I know, but there might be someone, somewhere who hasn't read Legion (or the numerous speculative threads in Background) yet.

Malevon
18-08-2008, 23:59
Omegon is Alpharius' identical twin. The Alpha Legion has two Primarchs. Rouboute Guilliman may have killed one, but as it's standard for all Alpha Legionnaires to pose as Alpharius to outsiders, and Guilliman never confirmed the kill, it seems likely that he killed neither.

Praexes
19-08-2008, 00:09
Everyone is forgetting Angron! :P He's on the warp somewhere, banished by 100 Grey Knights during the first Armaggedon war. He'll be back soon though.

olmsted
19-08-2008, 00:09
i have only read one horus heresy book and that was the one where the luna wolves kill the false emperor and all that crap. i think it was the first one. i never liked the horus heresy series. terribly sorry to anyone i horrify with this but i just dont like them.

Malevon
19-08-2008, 00:22
Everyone is forgetting Angron! :P He's on the warp somewhere, banished by 100 Grey Knights during the first Armaggedon war. He'll be back soon though.
I mentioned that he was a Daemon Prince...

i have only read one horus heresy book and that was the one where the luna wolves kill the false emperor and all that crap. i think it was the first one. i never liked the horus heresy series. terribly sorry to anyone i horrify with this but i just dont like them.
That's fine, but I don't see what that has to do with this conversation...

They're not my favorite books either though.

Xisor
19-08-2008, 00:27
Vulkan

He evidently made it off of Isstvan V if he lived to oppose the instatement of the Codex Astartes. It's a medium term mystery that isn't quite resolved by the end of the Heresy (or isn't mentioned). And let's not forget: Collected Visions isn't terribly clear about things even within itself.

Corax, for instance

He's slipped into a stasis tube during the Heresy (after being returned to Terra) and simply forgotten about for the remainder of Collected Visions. Was he kept on Terra? Did those Raven Guard who rescued him leave Terra? Did they fight in the seige of the Emperor's palace? Weren't there also Salamanders with them, what were they doing?

Back to Vulkan

There's a rumoured (and largely confirmed) new character in the upcoming Codex: Space Marines named Vulkan He'stan who is to be searching for the seven artefacts of Primarch Vulkan which are rumoured to correspond to the Primarch's return when they're all brought together. He has Inquisitor-like authority (within the Chapter?) in the pursuit of this task, we're told...

olmsted
19-08-2008, 00:33
I mentioned that he was a Daemon Prince...

That's fine, but I don't see what that has to do with this conversation...

They're not my favorite books either though.

its me stating why i didnt know alpharius had a twin

Gdolkin
19-08-2008, 00:37
See, thinking about Alpharius and Omegon, now it's been spoilered anyway.. Was there really a distinction? It occurs to me that, to them, perhaps neither was more truly Alpharius than Omegon, and vice versa. What with the whole identical twins, 'one soul, two bodies' thing, perhaps their very identities really were that ambiguous even to them. See what i mean? Like, one of them is only 'Alpharius' in so far as the other is, at present, 'Omegon'. They could misdirect and confuse others by switching when they're together or both being one or the other when they're apart.. Really, there's no 'truth' about it, to them they're both 'Alpharius and Omegon'..?
Sorry, that's completely off topic, bugger.
Maybe Alpharius/Omegon has come back, he'd be sly about it.
Russ would have interesting words for the Administratum, Munitorum, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition etc.. but what context are we trying to imagine his return in? He reckoned he'd be back for the Wolftime, so what do you suppose that is? Rana Dhandra? Galactic Apocalypse? Emperor's Death? The return of a Primarch brings with it or implies the destabilisation and transformation of the setting we recognize, and so it's tricky to conceive.

Malevon
19-08-2008, 00:52
its me stating why i didnt know alpharius had a twin
Ah, I see.

See, thinking about Alpharius and Omegon, now it's been spoilered anyway.. Was there really a distinction? It occurs to me that, to them, perhaps neither was more truly Alpharius than Omegon, and vice versa. What with the whole identical twins, 'one soul, two bodies' thing, perhaps their very identities really were that ambiguous even to them. See what i mean? Like, one of them is only 'Alpharius' in so far as the other is, at present, 'Omegon'. They could misdirect and confuse others by switching when they're together or both being one or the other when they're apart.. Really, there's no 'truth' about it, to them they're both 'Alpharius and Omegon'..?
Sorry, that's completely off topic, bugger.
Maybe Alpharius/Omegon has come back, he'd be sly about it.
Russ would have interesting words for the Administratum, Munitorum, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition etc.. but what context are we trying to imagine his return in? He reckoned he'd be back for the Wolftime, so what do you suppose that is? Rana Dhandra? Galactic Apocalypse? Emperor's Death? The return of a Primarch brings with it or implies the destabilisation and transformation of the setting we recognize, and so it's tricky to conceive.
Why would Alpharius Omegon "come back?" They never left.

Conceivably, at the end of the Time of Ending, when the Emperor is failing and all. But there's no way GW would ever advance the timeline enough to end the Imperium, as no one would be able to play the game anymore.

Also, it's entirely possible that Russ is dead. I've heard it suggested that he left to fulfill the Emperor's last command, to destroy Magnus and the Thousand Sons. If this was his mission, he either is taking his time or has died trying.

Lionsbane
19-08-2008, 00:58
Russ would have interesting words for the Administratum, Munitorum, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition etc.. but what context are we trying to imagine his return in? He reckoned he'd be back for the Wolftime, so what do you suppose that is? Rana Dhandra? Galactic Apocalypse? Emperor's Death?

You forgot Ragnarok.


Also, it's entirely possible that Russ is dead. I've heard it suggested that he left to fulfill the Emperor's last command, to destroy Magnus and the Thousand Sons. If this was his mission, he either is taking his time or has died trying.

Russ searchs for the Tree of Life, whose fruit will bring the Emperor back to life. And Russ has defeated death. Old fluff is the best fluff.

olmsted
19-08-2008, 01:40
please tell me about this fluff. the tree of life first begins with the seed of knowledge if you catch my drift.

jma037
19-08-2008, 01:41
Alpharius and Omegon, think the movie The Prestige.

CULCHAIN
19-08-2008, 02:08
lionsbane "Russ searchs for the Tree of Life, whose fruit will bring the Emperor back to life. And Russ has defeated death. Old fluff is the best fluff."

true dat

Lionsbane
19-08-2008, 04:03
Russ defeated death, Codex Space Wolves (the first one).

Tree of life explanation was in one of the Chaos books I believe, but will have to look for the referance. Its one of a half dozen reasons why Russ left that have been given. Of course in the original Rogue Trader book he was deceased, but there were no primarchs then.

abasio
19-08-2008, 04:23
Maybe when the Emepror is re-born like in the star child theory he will start another crusade & search for his missing children. Healing mortally injured ones, waking the sleeping ones, finding the lost ones, removing the taint of chaos from the ones reluctant to embrace chaos & killing the unrepentant ;)

Faustburg
19-08-2008, 07:37
Russ defeated death, Codex Space Wolves (the first one).

No... Russ, in his dying words, promised to disobey the rules of life and death to come back to help his chapter at the final battle.

He is, atm, dead...

setekhite
19-08-2008, 08:10
Retconned.

Those were Russ' dying words when they were first printed ("Chapter Approved - The First Book of the Astronomican" back in 1988 IIRC). That predates the whole superhuman / immortal Primarchs concept, and it was later amended to be his departing words to the Chapter before disappearing.

Malevon
19-08-2008, 08:29
No... Russ, in his dying words, promised to disobey the rules of life and death to come back to help his chapter at the final battle.

He is, atm, dead...
Erm, in current fluff, Russ left Fenris, along with all of the Wolf Guard of the time besides Bjorn the Fell-Handed, for the Eye of Terror, promising to return for the final battle. The Space Wolves search for him when they hold the Great Hunt, and they have now recovered his armour. He's not confirmed as dead, however.

Faustburg
19-08-2008, 09:50
Not a ret-con, it even has the "our chapter will be dying, even as I am now" (sic) part... depending on authors, it varies between a variant of that line, and him saying nothing as he left the party with his wolf guard.


Now how that have gotten back to the chapter it doesn't say, but it would be plausible that they found a recording at some point during one of those quests they go on, to retrieve pieces of his armour or other wargear...

Narf
19-08-2008, 12:38
Rogal Dorns body was recovered, its encased in amber on the phalanx, and used to feed to new initiates to allow certain pyscho surguries etc. His fists are seperate and used by each captain of the Fists to inscribe there personnal heraldry on, and are ment to almost be full of the scrimshawing (bone carving). whether or not he'll come back is open, as the amber covering his bones regrows itself, and whose to say what might happen if his fists are finally covered in heraldry

But this is also out the Book that put imperial fists as pain worshippers, but its still a good book

Faustburg
19-08-2008, 12:47
Where do you get that from? I don't remember any mentioning of Dorn's body being in amber, and certainly not "fed to new recruits", whatever you mean by that, in the Space Marine novel.

His scrimshawed finger bones being kept by the chapter was established in that book though, and reused in contemporary background (along with their tendencies to "purify" themselves through intense chastising, although "worshiping" pain is to go a bit too far...)

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
19-08-2008, 13:03
Close, but no cigar. It is a known fact that Dorn's hand was recovered form the wreck of the Sword of Sacrilege, and some suspect that the rest of said body was also recovered. The bones of the hand reside in a case of amber (not encased, in a case, they come out) in the Shrine of the Primiarch aboard the Phalanx. The bones of the hand are inscribed with the name (name only, and microscopically, at that) of each Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists. The body, if entirely recovered, would be kept in absolute secrecy, as befits the body of a Primiarch. The whole "feeding" thing comes across as bunk, although you are rather difficult to understand.

Narf
19-08-2008, 22:23
Where do you get that from? I don't remember any mentioning of Dorn's body being in amber, and certainly not "fed to new recruits", whatever you mean by that, in the Space Marine novel.

His scrimshawed finger bones being kept by the chapter was established in that book though, and reused in contemporary background (along with their tendencies to "purify" themselves through intense chastising, although "worshiping" pain is to go a bit too far...)

This is where i show (A) how old i am, and (B) how much of a nerd i am :P

Actually if you would like to turn your copy of "Space Marine" to page 74 (should really be the paperback 1993 version) and read the 2nd full paragraph.....

" .. . . .housing the fists' holiest relic: the mighty skeleton, embedded in clear amber contoured to body form, of the primarch . . .. . ."

The chaplain/reclusiarch then goes to brush down the said incased bones of dorn, then cuts the amber big toe off (page 75) and melts the amber in his teacup (chalice), making the marines (sorry Aspirants/Neophytes/scouts) breathe in the fumes. Then he lops off the end of one finger on each scout( just a little cut though), lets the blood drop into the tea cup, and drinks it himself (page 76)


Close, but no cigar. It is a known fact that Dorn's hand was recovered form the wreck of the Sword of Sacrilege, and some suspect that the rest of said body was also recovered. The bones of the hand reside in a case of amber (not encased, in a case, they come out) in the Shrine of the Primiarch aboard the Phalanx. The bones of the hand are inscribed with the name (name only, and microscopically, at that) of each Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists. The body, if entirely recovered, would be kept in absolute secrecy, as befits the body of a Primiarch. The whole "feeding" thing comes across as bunk, although you are rather difficult to understand.

At least i can write in paragraphs though ;) (joke). Anyways if you would all turn to page 76 again.

"... . . in transparent stasis cases within, with magnilenses inset, hung rogal dorns fleshless fists, entire, scrimshandered.... "

"...... the commander of the chapter alone to inscribe his HERALDRY as minutly as he can upon these sacred bones....."


So i think that pre-retcon or rewrite the fluff is correct, btw the aspirants are then taken down a hole where the chaplains play marbles with there amber poop (its there and lex cant fathom what mystic things may occur here ;) )

So i do apologise i managed to forget it wasnt the aspirants who drank the amber.

To me "Space Marine" is one of the best GW books out there, some of the others are the original "Dark Future" books or the original "Inquisitor" books, did they get a rewrite when re-released?

Please feel free to correct me if the book has been changed since, as i know it was re-released, though you have to remember that ian watson was a very dark writer and GW/BL books now are a lot lighter in tone and pace.

Other wise, as i am starting up a imperial fist army, please do point me in the direction of said "new" fluffso i can have a gander too.

Cheers

NARF

Helsing
20-08-2008, 21:07
My apologies,

My information was gleened both from the White Dwarf Index Astartes and personal insight. If my information is flawed it is either due to the fact that my sources have changed in the last two years (I just got back into the hobby) or that my other sources are to varied or not valid.

Helsing.

djinn8
28-08-2008, 22:42
Just a theory but if the Trator legions could clone Horus from his recovered corpse (succeding only in creating "mewling abominations" because his soul had been destroyed) couldn't Rogal Dorn be cloned from his hand:confused:

Rabid Bunny 666
29-08-2008, 00:46
I thought Russ left by himself to go into the Eye of Terror, always thought he was looking for the Lion to be honest.

Scorpius_78
29-08-2008, 01:32
I thought Russ left by himself to go into the Eye of Terror, always thought he was looking for the Lion to be honest.

In truth we really dont know where Russ want to. Most ppl will say he want to the eye but even that is up for grabs. And if he did go in the eye (which I believe he did) we dont know why he want there. Some ppl say to find a cure for the BIG E, others will tell you that hes there trying to carry out his last orders.

Chem-Dog
29-08-2008, 02:14
For the Ultramarines it was Roboute Guilliman who fell to the poison of Alpharius and for ten thousand years has been believed to be healing.
Wasn't he killed Fulgrim?!



For the Imperial Fists they believe Rogal Dorn fell to the Black Legion, though he his ever at the edge of their dreams and racial consciousness.

IIRC the most recent stuff (By Pete "Perturabo" Haines" is that only the hands were recovered.


For the Ravenguard Corax is though to be searching for the soul of the Emperor in Hell.

Didn't he disappear off in the direction of the EoT doing his Edgar Allan Poe?
Suppose we could interpret the EOT as hell.


Lion El' Jonson....
Is asleep in that bit of the Rock that no DA has ever looked on because it's too holy :rolleyes:. The guy leading the Fallen (for better or worse) is the Guy known as Cypher.


Leman Russ

Did the whole "Wolftime" speech before going to the EoT.

Sanguinius is deadder than dead.


Vulcan is thought lost...

Galaxy in flames seemed to suggest Vulkan at least made it off of Istvaan V.


.... as is Ferrus Manus, though some believed he was rebuilt as a sentient machine on Mars and his slowly regaining his mind.

DE-CAP-IT-ATE-D
(Although, if you subscribe to the "C'tan Hands" theory, it's not entirely unthinkable that he's somehow subsumed or combined with the Void Dragon but it does sound like fan-wish based on the Iron Hand's closeness with the Adeptus Mechanicus) .


Another theory is that the Chaos Primarchs will be reborn. Mortarion, Magnus, Perturabo and Horus, but as a darker entity, the very same entity that has plagued man since the first millennium. The same entity that was Archaon, The Fallen, the true form of Chaos.

The question is, how will they return?

Firstly, as others have mentioned, most of the Chaos Primarchs are still very much alive and kicking (in the broadest most chaos infused sense of the word).

Secondly, IF any Primarchs were to return, the obvious, and distinctly less hokey, way of doing it, is to utilise Progenoid glands to re-make them. Horus has been cloned so it stands to reason that other Primarchs could be too, indeed where you actually have some part of the Primarch it might be easier.



i have only read one horus heresy book and that was the one where the luna wolves kill the false emperor and all that crap. i think it was the first one. i never liked the horus heresy series. terribly sorry to anyone i horrify with this but i just dont like them.

Yeah, that's Horus Rising.


What with the whole identical twins, 'one soul, two bodies' thing, perhaps their very identities really were that ambiguous even to them.

I think people are way too eager to read something into this, they are two seperate organisms, raised the same way and possessed of the same Gene Forged


Maybe Alpharius/Omegon has come back, he'd be sly about it.


To quote Baudelaire "la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!"

They are Keyser Söze ;)



Also, it's entirely possible that Russ is dead. I've heard it suggested that he left to fulfill the Emperor's last command, to destroy Magnus and the Thousand Sons. If this was his mission, he either is taking his time or has died trying.

Give the Guy a break! That whole "Century passes in the blink of an eye/ Second takes an aeon to pass" thing can really mess up the Schedule. ;)




Actually if you would like to turn your copy of "Space Marine" to page 74 (should really be the paperback 1993 version) and read the 2nd full paragraph....

I would personally disregard any of what Ian Watson books say, practically everything about the 40K back story has been retconned or expanded since he wrote those (not dissing the Books).
On a similar principal, Churning out quotes from "Slaves" or "Lost" has little real meaning now.

If it ever got to expanding past 40K's timeline and it was deemed necessary to bring back the Primarchs, it might be easier to have new ones made.
Of course, the Logical (if Highly Heretical) progression of this line of thought is:- If you can Rebuild a Primarch using the Progenoid Glands of Space Marines , who share a fraction of the Primarch's power thanks to the Geneseed) then perhaps it's just possible to build a new Emperor (as the Primarchs are made of the "Geneseed" of the Emperor).

olmsted
29-08-2008, 02:35
but that would require pulling the plug. imagine all the paper work for that.

Chem-Dog
29-08-2008, 02:44
Ah, you've not spent much time talking to Thorians then ;)