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ihockert
19-08-2008, 07:02
I wander around 40k internet forums a fair amount and have seen a lot of armies anchored by what I call uber-units, such as units like the Seer Council or the crazy Ork Nob bikers. I understand that these things mostly show up in competitive play but I really just don't like the basic premise of them. Its a unit that is almost impossible for an enemy to deal without the proper tools.

Now to be honest, I have never seen any of these units in play at my store so maybe they are not as all-powerful as some of these forums imply but it feels like units like this take away a lot of the tactics from the game and I really don't like the fact that such units exist. Now, I might be overreacting but I wonder if anyone else agrees with me or if they disagree with me and why.

Master Stark
19-08-2008, 07:13
I wander around 40k internet forums a fair amount and have seen a lot of armies anchored by what I call uber-units, such as units like the Seer Council or the crazy Ork Nob bikers. I understand that these things mostly show up in competitive play but I really just don't like the basic premise of them. Its a unit that is almost impossible for an enemy to deal without the proper tools.

Now to be honest, I have never seen any of these units in play at my store so maybe they are not as all-powerful as some of these forums imply but it feels like units like this take away a lot of the tactics from the game and I really don't like the fact that such units exist. Now, I might be overreacting but I wonder if anyone else agrees with me or if they disagree with me and why.

Depends. These super units are often very expensive, and rarely a troops units. These days it is very posible to keep them tied in 'junk' combats, and use the rest of your force to slaughter his army denying him the ability to capture objectives.

GodofWarTx
19-08-2008, 07:14
Uber units are going to be fun to play against with the new chapter master orbital strike.

The problem with so called uber units is if they are countered, that army is going to be weakened considerably.

Its not really "fun" if you get to arbitrarily decide if your opponents army is "too powerful" or not. You should see your threats on the table and manuever to defeat them.

TheOverlord
19-08-2008, 07:19
The problem with uber units is that the only reason they exist is because we as players are enough of a dick to actually find that exploit and max it out to ludicrous levels.

Stingray_tm
19-08-2008, 07:22
Uber units are going to be fun to play against with the new chapter master orbital strike.

Which itself seems to be a uber unit, which actually proves the point.



The problem with so called uber units is if they are countered, that army is going to be weakened considerably.

Its not really "fun" if you get to arbitrarily decide if your opponents army is "too powerful" or not. You should see your threats on the table and manuever to defeat them.

But it basically comes down to having the right army list for this opponent or not. Why even bother playing the game, when taking the right or wrong unit in the army creation process is so important. That's just bad game design.

In 4th edition i needed an anti-Eldar Nid list in order to have a chance with my swarm. But this list was totally useless against Chaos. I'd rather prefer the ability to have lists, what work for everything, just take a unit you like and don't bother who you are up against. And STILL have a decent chance of winning.

Stingray_tm
19-08-2008, 07:24
The problem with uber units is that the only reason they exist is because we as players are enough of a dick to actually find that exploit and max it out to ludicrous levels.

The only reason those units exists is that GW can make a lot of money out of players exploiting that stuff. GW clearly is aware of things like Nidzilla, but hey, there was a new Carnifex set to be released and if you can sell 6 of those to every Nid player, why not...

GodofWarTx
19-08-2008, 07:29
Which itself seems to be a uber unit, which actually proves the point.


Someone is certainly jumping to conclusions.:rolleyes:


Fine, then you can hit those units with a Demolisher shell or battle cannon. :D

ChaosBeast
19-08-2008, 07:50
'uber-units' as you call them generally cost loads of points, which will leave your opponent with disadvantages as he has spent a load of points on an 'uber unit'. pretty much any unit can be destroyed if you have anti tank, anti infantry, and assault units in your army.

Grogugluk
19-08-2008, 08:11
Ya I've played in quite a few tournaments and haven't really run into any uber units that I couldn't counter.

Most of them have some serious drawbacks in addition to the high prices that you get coming in.

For example the Nob bikers all upgraded with a nice boss runs around 800+ points which is just a crazy amount of points for 11 models. I'm not sure about Eldar armies but its hard for any of the MEQs to really get a uber unit that is worth even close to its points in my experience.

Especially now that troops are the bees knees I think its going to be even more rare that they have an impact.

ChaosBeast
19-08-2008, 08:20
i think thats half the reason they introduced troops as the only scoring units. to take power from the 'uber units'. they might excel at slaughtering troops, but 2/3 of the time, its the troops that will win the game for you.

DarkAzrael169
19-08-2008, 08:36
Using tactics and strategy to destroy difficult obstacles is what makes 40K fun and an exciting strategy game. Winning about how "Uber-units" are unfair, is very childish. Sure it can be very cheezy :cheese: to do certain combos, however beating that is quite rewarding. :evilgrin:

This is like complaining in a war that the enemy is bombardng me or using smart bombs. Its to be expected. Sometimes these combos can just be funny, come on "Flying Circus" just cracks me up... :D

What does tick me off is when someone bases their entire army around that one asset.

Chimaera2000
19-08-2008, 09:11
Part of it stems from the desire to say "mine's bigger" or even just "look what my unit can do!" Another part comes from fond memories of when that unit wins you games single-handedly. Of course, if you've sunk 30-40% of your points into a unit, it's no big surprise if it wins you the game; with that amount of points, it has to!

I personally prefer large numbers of smaller units. The truth is that there is no unit in 40k for which there's not a weapon designed specifically to kill it. If you face those weapons and suffer bad luck, you can suffer a disastrous loss from which you can't recover. All it takes is an unlucky Difficult Terrain roll on that Land Raider or a successful Battle Cannon shot on those Nob Bikers to wipe out your chances of victory.

I strive for redundant assets in my army; if one falls, another must be able to do its job. Units will die and another unit has to be capable of taking its place. Sinking far too many points into an "uber-unit" is fun for a single game but not something that I'd do when I seriously want to win.

Of course, sinking points into several uber-units (re: Nidzilla) is a perfectly sound tactical doctrine. :p

Stingray_tm
19-08-2008, 09:16
This is like complaining in a war that the enemy is bombardng me or using smart bombs.

Newsflash. 40K is a GAME. It is not WAR. You want to treat it like such, go ahead. But don't expect me to have me as your opponent.

TheOverlord
19-08-2008, 09:21
The only reason those units exists is that GW can make a lot of money out of players exploiting that stuff. GW clearly is aware of things like Nidzilla, but hey, there was a new Carnifex set to be released and if you can sell 6 of those to every Nid player, why not...

This is also a valid observation, although I'd like to think that GW aren't dicks enough to actually go that route, in which would only then further cement and aggravate my hatred towards SM. I already pay them enough with the minis I buy, I'd like to think they don't screw us over with a splintered stick while calling us 'Bambi' too.

Da Black Gobbo
19-08-2008, 09:21
Hi! i don't know if games workshop is trying to get the rid the "uberunit" syndrome from the players, but giving 3++ to thunderhammer wielder termmies is not the way to go, soon we'll see the 8 Assault termies of death, riding a crussader, expensive? of course, but go ahead, try to kill'em, probably one of the hardest units in game in the 2nd hardest transport out there.

Anyways and thanks god there are a very few of this kind of units. The most worrying units for me are 30 orks strong units, hard to kill and deadly in CC!

TheLionReturns
19-08-2008, 09:42
To be honest I don't mind uber units. I don't really field one right now, but as my Dark Angels expand to include a Deathwing contingent I plan to field a Terminator command squad equipped for close combat with Belial and and Interrogator Chaplain in a Land Raider Crusader. I am not sure how this ranks on the uber scale having not fielded it, but it is a hefty points investment.

The reason is that I simply like the idea of my army supporting a heroic and hopefully decisive assault by the Master of the Deathwing and the Chapters best fighters.

In game terms I guess the problem with uber units is that if you are equipped to deal with them you stand a really good chance of winning, if not you are very likely to lose, although perhaps 5th edition has changed this a bit.

Stingray_tm
19-08-2008, 09:58
Hi! i don't know if games workshop is trying to get the rid the "uberunit" syndrome from the players, but giving 3++ to thunderhammer wielder termmies is not the way to go, soon we'll see the 8 Assault termies of death, riding a crussader, expensive? of course, but go ahead, try to kill'em, probably one of the hardest units in game in the 2nd hardest transport out there.


Yeah, that's something i am really looking forward to with my Nids.

"Want to stop my Land Raider? Sorry, you can't. You ranged weaponry is almost unable to affect it."
"Now my Termies have disembarked. What are you gonna do now? Kill with with your shooting, you don't have? Kill them with rending, which helps you almost nothing at all, because they got storm shields? Muahahah!"

Very nice, GW...

DarkAzrael169
19-08-2008, 10:04
Newsflash. 40K is a GAME. It is not WAR. You want to treat it like such, go ahead. But don't expect me to have me as your opponent.

:eek:I didn't mean it like that, I just wanted to make a point about how stupid it is to whine about such trivial things.

anthrax1990
19-08-2008, 10:50
i played an ork player this weekend with a warboss on a bike. that model must have killed 3 squads of 7 plague marines before going down, it wasnt even funny.

of course, at the time i laughed it up, and the guy i was playing wasnt trying to be cheesy he just wanted to try out his cool new conversion.

he usualy comes along with a nice balanced list, and i think units like this are ok when used once every now and then to spice up a list, but i wouldnt play someone who brought it along every game, or if i had to play them i would do something just as bad to teach them a lesson :angel:

Toe Cutter
19-08-2008, 11:09
Fine, then you can hit those units with a Demolisher shell or battle cannon. :D


QFT

Imperial Guard may not have any uber units (uber assaulty units anyway) but we do a good line in humbling the uber units.

Of course it appears that the kiddie winkles who play space marines aren't content with stealing our demolisher cannons but have actually whinged enough to get a unit thats immune to them (3+ invulnerables for assault terminators) but meh. No point whinging about that - thats what the space marine list generally does.

MrGiggles
19-08-2008, 11:19
This post makes me want to build an Uber-Unit of Grotz.

I could put Mad Dok Grotsnik with them! Fear my Grot Mob! Even if you shoot them, they won't feel it, they're tough..........against weapons S3 and lower....:)

Honestly though, I tend not to worry all that much on the uber units. Crazy special characters, 700-800 point Nob Bikers, most of them have about the same solution: toss 180 points of Slugga Boyz at them and watch the unit sit in a tarpit for a few turns. Sure, they're probably going to mulch the Sluggas, but it'll take time and the Boyz might do a wound or two back.

That tactic will work most of the time, though there are probably better ones out there.

Hellfury
19-08-2008, 11:22
There is an easy fix to get rid of uber units.

Force everyone to use the DA codex. :p

Of course, it may be hard to play with everyone falling alseep from boredom all the time... :D

Disciple of Caliban
19-08-2008, 12:02
I dunno, DA can field a fairly uber unit, deathwing termis supported by 2 characters cruising in a LRC will be pretty tough to deal with. If the new assault termis are as hard as people claim they will probably be better at this though.

I'm not generally a fan of fielding uber units myself, the only exception are my space wolves, who have an uber unit of wolf guard to keep the rune priest/wolf lord company. Yes, they're really hard, but come on, they only have a 3+ save, one decent battle cannon shot and its 500pts down the drain. Still, space wolves should always field one unit of wolf guard, they're just so fluffy (and furry, but thats another story)

Game wise uber units are rarely that powerful, which is why they're rarely fielded in games. Sure, we all come on here and hyposthesis over how uber a unit we can make, but people rarely deploy such things because they know that one good round of shooting will see them dead (demolisher cannons, plasma weapons, pulse lasers, they're all capable of bringing down such a squad).

oCoYoRoAoKo
19-08-2008, 12:33
i played an ork player this weekend with a warboss on a bike. that model must have killed 3 squads of 7 plague marines before going down, it wasnt even funny.

of course, at the time i laughed it up, and the guy i was playing wasnt trying to be cheesy he just wanted to try out his cool new conversion.

he usualy comes along with a nice balanced list, and i think units like this are ok when used once every now and then to spice up a list, but i wouldnt play someone who brought it along every game, or if i had to play them i would do something just as bad to teach them a lesson :angel:

i wouldnt really call one biker-boss an uber unit. assuming he had a power claw, the plague marines should have struck first, leaving the boss with only T6 (granted this is the hardest thing to get around), 3W and a 4+ save to hide behind. also, after the first unit dies, hes out on his own ready for the other 2 units o rapid fire into him. Now, if that boss was in a unit of Cybork Nob bikers with dok for FNP it would be a different matter entirely :P

Cy.

Mojaco
19-08-2008, 12:39
The only reason those units exists is that GW can make a lot of money out of players exploiting that stuff. GW clearly is aware of things like Nidzilla, but hey, there was a new Carnifex set to be released and if you can sell 6 of those to every Nid player, why not...

Yep, that's all GW does. Make plastics and then create overpowered rules for them so we buy them. Spawns, Possessed, Piranhas, Bloodletters, the whole Dark Angel range, it's all so powerful!

Ruroni
19-08-2008, 12:59
I swear one day I'll write a browser script that searches the page for certain names that just cry heresy, gimp, pwn, and cheese at everything and don't display them anymore. For the amount that some people think this game and company is f'd you'd think they'd just stop playing or something. Chill out, have a beer, and relax buddy, we're supposed to be having fun.

Anyway, on topic, I agree, the troops modification is really a good fix to uber unit syndrome, plus, as some have said, if you're knowledgeable and have a good list, a lot of these aren't a problem. Most times I see someone cry cheese at a unit, they didn't know what kind of potential it had until they got hit by it. I remember the 1st game I used genestealers, like 10 years ago, vs my best friend. He didn't shoot at them, they hit a lot of his best marines/commander, and they evaporated. Now we all know stealers basically disappear if you bolter them, and they for 16 pts per guy base are pretty far from krafty, but at least on the onset they seem that way. Then you end up with threads like ZOMG how do I kill geensteelers!? There's not a lot of things that are overly hard to win against if you know what to expect, and play smart.

Sometimes of course, you'll find yourself in situations where you're facing say, 6 Fexes and 2 Tyrants, and don't have any ap2 and/or high str weapons, and are pretty much done, but at that point, you didn't play very smart eh?

Adra
19-08-2008, 14:01
some things are just too good when it comes to power over price....csm deamon princes for example. Some things are worth it and you just cant say no to if you want an edge in battle. does not mean cheese but thats just how it goes.

ihockert
19-08-2008, 18:07
I can see the reason in the points being made here. Uber units are basically a gamble that probability will hold true during your game. Like I originally said, I haven't seen any of these uber units where I play, so I guess I'm just looking at them from a theoretical standpoint (which we all know is not always representative of how things work in game). I guess I'm just tired of seeing mostly the same stuff in people's competitive lists. Chaos usually has double lash oblit spam, Eldar have seer councils (either on bikes or with Eldrard and Yriel), Orks...well orks have a lot of good builds. I guess I'll just stay away from the competitive 40k environment.

The_Outsider
19-08-2008, 18:29
Uber units are a joke, they are rarely effeceint and more often than not aren't as good as 2 moderately kitted units.

Uber units by definition fall victim to themselves, especially CC units as they are more often than not such overkill they can easily be forced into compirmising positions. If the opponent doesn't fall for the trap said unit probably isn't doing anyhting then wasting all those points.

Its these reasons why the BA/DA and ironically DE codices are so awesome.

lanrak
19-08-2008, 18:36
Hi all.
Yes I am tired of the 'Uber Unit Syndrome'.
And to be fair, AFAIK this only applied to GW games any way.(Especialy 40k.)

When I look at 40k it just screams 'rock ,paper, scissors.'
Lots of strategic conciderations in list building and deployment.
But due to the limited tactical options (chioces in game , )in 40k , army build and luck has far greater impact on the game result than it realy should, IMO.

Rather than write special rules that artificialy constrict player choice and actions.
Most other games I play, let the unit combinations
players take determine play style, without having to rely on any units in particular to be successful.

Mind you most of these rule sets are written by games companies , not a minatures company, perhaps this has some thing to do with it?

Any how, I have given up on 40k rules.Untill GW actualy use more suitable game mechanics , 40k will continue to run at a fraction of its potential.

Mojaco
19-08-2008, 20:02
Paper scissor rocks is pretty much how real war works too, right? Besides, you can't tell me with a straight face other games are perfectly balanced when picked apart to the extend 40k is. Warmachine anyone?

Kahadras
19-08-2008, 21:00
Uber unit syndrome went west with the old Eldar codex and the Seer council of doom. Uber units are a suprise but they are only a one hit wonder before people catch on. After a couple of games you can usualy work out a way of dealing with them and the problem usualy goes away.

Kahadras

lanrak
19-08-2008, 21:24
Hi Majoco.
In my limited experiance,( if real war is reflected reasonably accuratley in historical rule sets), then real war is far from 'rock paper scissors'.
Most use 'combined arms ' (wide range of unit types), and its not what units you put on the table but what you do with them 'in game' that determines the result.

I dont think I mentioned the 'level of ballance' at all in my post.And as GW do not proclaim 40k to be a 'wargame suitably ballanced for competative play' it would be unfair of me to do so.

More of an objection to having unessisarily 'Uber Units' due to poor game development,(reactive ammendments to unsuitable game mechanics.)

If the dev team used more suitable game mechanics there would be more tactical options(in game chioces), and so the units chosen would not impact so heavily on the game play -end result.And so 'uber units' simply would not exist, and there would not be a requirment to increase the value of 'Troop' units artificialy.

Unfortunatley game development at GW towers is influenced by more than game play requirments alone.

Hope that better defines my 'objections' to the current state of the 40k game.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Bunnahabhain
19-08-2008, 22:06
No, I'm not tired of uber units. Not tired at all, as they don't work.

If my opponent chooses to sink 1/2- 1/3 of the armies points into one unit, then it just makes my life easier. I've then got one very valuable target to neutralise, or ignore.

These very expensive units are very rarely as efficient as a couple of moderately equipped ones, and more importantly, can only be in one place at a time, targeting one unit at a time. If that seer council/nob biker unit/ assualt terminator retinue hits me, it can kill an 80 pt guard squad, or 120pt hell hound, and then evaporate under three platoons rapid fire.

If three squads of scorpions/ 2x 30 boys mobs/ 2 x assualt marine squads ( all about the same points as the above uber units of their race) hits me, that's far more trouble.

I am tired of the real uber units- the mercifully now gone invunerable falcons, elite shooty carnifixes, and similar. The significantly dangerous, very much underpriced units....

Lord Exander
20-08-2008, 01:40
Am I tired of uber-units? Not really. I view them as a challenge.

What I am tired of is people whining about them rather than trying to figure out how to counter them. That's what's really tiresome.

Frostden
20-08-2008, 02:42
For a few games this guy I played against fielded a massive mixed power and terminator wolfguard in a land raider crusader.
It was an uber unit.
The next couple of games he tried the same thing, but I had stocked up on bright lances, banshees, and defend avengers.
The unit was free victory points.
The forth game he ditched the wolf guard and went troop heavy. Suddenly troops were my uber opponent, my anti elite army not having the manpower to deal with them.

So I reckon that there are no uber units really, just variations on the game ruining "win or lose on your army list" min-maxing that's been in 40k since I started playing.

It seems to me like trying to force balance through the force organisation chart is a waste of time. It would probably ruin the game, but I think that the only way to avoid min-maxing would be to make it that 10-40% of your army has to be light, medium, heavy infantry, or vehicles.
It would be a nightmare to get working, with the wide, wide range of unit types in 40k, but it would ensure that armies are balanced. I'm sick of taking small arms against terminators and anti tank against hordes.

ChaosTicket
20-08-2008, 14:00
Personally I like the Idea of Uber units, mainly because that means that you would get "Elite" versions of some units or new ones entirely, such a Ork Boyz and units of Nobs, or Tactical Marines and Terminators.

However most Uber units have lots of offensive upgrades, but none in the way of defensive ones. Terminators have terminator armor, Nobz have 2 wounds, and some times it goes on, and other times you get a unit of Chosen with 4 Pairs of Lightning claws, and they aren't any more resilient than a Chaos Marine Squad.

I'm hoping to see more "Elite" units come out, but have either defense upgrades as well, or have cheaper but less powerful offensive upgrades, like a whole squad with their close combat weapons upgraded to power weapons or +2 str weapons like 'Uge Choppas.

Some examples are good elite targets are Genestealers. They can be given great offensive powers, but have little in the way of defense outside of the standard melee defense of being in combat or in cover.

zaarin7
20-08-2008, 15:03
A post above hit the nail on the head. He faced what he perceived to be an uber unit. What did he do? HE BOUGHT MORE MODELS! That's what its truly all about folks. Selling models. I'm partly convinced at least some of the thought that went into making only troops count as scoring units was to sell more models.

GW is a business. They make a profit by selling models. View every decision they announce through the lens of 'Will this sell more models?' and a lot of things make way more sence.

Personally I think uber units were scaled back by two things, the above troops thing and eliminating consolidating into assault.

randyc9999
20-08-2008, 19:10
I think that one of the reasons why people use a strong high-point unit is that quite often it means less painting. If you paint to a high standard, then each model can be very time-consuming. I'd much rather paint 6 warlocks on bikes than paint 60 guardians ...

totgeboren
20-08-2008, 19:46
über-units are only really dangerous if the other player also uses überunits. Take a unit of bikernobs with warboss vs IG for example.

Its almost impossible for them to earn their points back aslong as the guardplayer just thrown guardsmen between them and their tanks. Also, the guard player should be able to fire at them almost every turn.

On the other hand, those nobs vs a player that uses 3 units of sternguard will be totally horrifying. They will plow down the sternguards, who costs so much that the orks only need to kill like two units.

I guess there are two ways of neutralizing über-units, and thats by either having no über-units yourself, or having a better über-unit than your opponent.

If you have an über-unit thats not as über as the other guys, you are gonna lose. :P

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-08-2008, 21:19
i played an ork player this weekend with a warboss on a bike. that model must have killed 3 squads of 7 plague marines before going down, it wasnt even funny.

of course, at the time i laughed it up, and the guy i was playing wasnt trying to be cheesy he just wanted to try out his cool new conversion.

he usualy comes along with a nice balanced list, and i think units like this are ok when used once every now and then to spice up a list, but i wouldnt play someone who brought it along every game, or if i had to play them i would do something just as bad to teach them a lesson :angel:

use a dread or defiler :P

teach them that said warboss is not-immune when sombody hit him in the head with dreadnought close combat weapon [10S] :D

or use vindicator [much less reliable, but could work]

Lord_Squinty
20-08-2008, 22:28
I havent *yet* met the "Nobz biker squad with Painboy uberness squad of doom!"
But I'm pretty sure most of my armies will be able to cope with it WHEN it arrives.

But I am really struggling to see how a single warboss on a bike can take out 3 squads?

Unless the player had units scattered all over the table unsupported.. In that case its not an uber unit - its poor tactical awareness.

Grogugluk
20-08-2008, 23:03
Warboss on a bike is a very very nasty unit. If you don't have a power klaw or something its pretty easy for him to do alot of damage.

T6 against marines is really hard to crack.

Its kinda like a daemon prince hitting your squads.. just about as killy and as tough. I'm sure plenty of people have had daemon prince's kill 3 squads.