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grabula
19-08-2008, 15:01
I was reading through the 'questionaire' thread and it seems like 25 orc boyz units with shields is pretty popular and I'm wondering why?

I mean, I get that you get a 4+ save in combat but it seems to me orcs do well on the charge and that there's a good chance you're going to get to charge (maybe animosities just worked in my favor so far) so why not go with the two choppas?

I guess I'm a little biased against armor, my main opponent plays dwarves so lots of armor penalties to ranged attacks, plus he likes to load up on great weapons. Several other armies in the area use alot of armor penalty based weapons that really makes it feel like the extra points aren't worth it.

Avian
19-08-2008, 15:21
I can list the pros of the different combos:

Choppa and shield
- cheaper (on a medium-sized unit you save almost the cost of an extra rank of models), and with greenies, cheaper is nearly always better
- since Orcs are quite slow and have quite low Initiative, they often strike last, which means that more armour lets more guys survive and by the time you get to strike, you often get as many attacks as a double-choppa unit would
- with a better save against shooting, you might get more guys making it into contact (especially since you could afford more guys to begin with)
- typically you want to have your units led by a fighter character and possibly you will also have a shaman in the unit. That leaves very few grunts to attack, so you get quite few attacks for your points

Double choppas
- on smaller units, the extra cost isn't really noticeable
- if you do get to strike first, you can do a good amount of damage and against soft targets, few will get to strike back, so a lack of armour is not so vital
- some units won't break, and need to be killed to a man. That doesn't work so well with just one choppa.
- an Orc Boss with two choppas is quite nasty for a relatively low cost
- if you take a small unit with two choppas, people will often not bother shooting at it anyway
- on anything with S5 or more, Boyz with shields don't get much of a save either (I would say it is noticeable at S4, though)


Personally I don't mind running a large block of double-choppa Boyz and they do okay against not-too nasty enemy units (they are heaps better against Zombies, for example), but if I were to build another big block of Boyz, they would have shields, as I think that tends to come out better on average. I have had some good experiences with small detachment-style units of 10 Boyz with two choppas and a musician as support in my 'Ard Boyz theme list this spring, though.

Malorian
19-08-2008, 15:46
I understand that the extra choppa is better in an MSU style of orcs, but what about shield vs naked?

If you have 25 orcs with shields you could have 30 orcs without shields. I guess it really depends on what you are fighting, but it seems to me that most of the time it would be better to have extra bodies against shooting and in combat as a lot of attacks are str4+.

(I'd definately want the shield against corsairs or witches though...)

Grom Hellscream
19-08-2008, 20:40
its true they both drop like flies to musket fire - but they both do have their advantages.
the shield orcs can take on huge amounts of S3 guys and massacre due to their 4+ save and win via static res, plus a few kills perhaps? the main point is that they are a "locking" unit, and need a flanker to usually break an opponent.
the 2choppa orcs, if they get the charge, its like getting hit by Saurus warriors... but there are more of them. they are infinatly better against enemies with S5+, but not so hot V S4 enemies.
if you can pull the charge - i'd say they're just way better, but with animosity you never know.... SO i take 2 big units (1 shield, 1 with 2 choppas) and assign them to fight certain units based upon their strengths before the battle starts.

Grom Hellscream
19-08-2008, 20:41
its true they both drop like flies to musket fire - but they both do have their advantages.
the shield orcs can take on huge amounts of S3 guys and massacre due to their 4+ save and win via static res, plus a few kills perhaps? the main point is that they are a "locking" unit, and need a flanker to usually break an opponent.
the 2choppa orcs, if they get the charge, its like getting hit by Saurus warriors... but there are more of them. they are infinatly better against enemies with S5+, but not so hot V S4 enemies.
if you can pull the charge - i'd say they're just way better, but with animosity you never know.... SO i take 2 big units (1 shield, 1 with 2 choppas) and assign them to fight certain units based upon their strengths before the battle starts.

grabula
19-08-2008, 22:28
yeah, I guess I can see where each type of unit has it's strengths. Down the road I'll have to add some choppa and shield boyz to give myself some flexibitliy against weaker units, though it's still pretty funny hitting tough 3 units with 10 attacks on a charge!

Fredmans
19-08-2008, 22:53
It also depends on the purpose of the unit. If I have my warboss in it, I equip the boyz with shield to minimize losses and let the general produce the kills. With the increase in S4 units and fear-causing armies, it sometimes depends on a single orc whether I am outnumbered or not, and then that 5+ save comes in handy. If I want double choppas, I tend to go with savage orcs instead. Sure, they cost more, but not by much and they can be used in smaller numbers.

/Fredmans

Gork or Possibly Mork
19-08-2008, 23:00
I can list the pros of the different combos:

Choppa and shield
- cheaper (on a medium-sized unit you save almost the cost of an extra rank of models), and with greenies, cheaper is nearly always better
- since Orcs are quite slow and have quite low Initiative, they often strike last, which means that more armour lets more guys survive and by the time you get to strike, you often get as many attacks as a double-choppa unit would
- with a better save against shooting, you might get more guys making it into contact (especially since you could afford more guys to begin with)
- typically you want to have your units led by a fighter character and possibly you will also have a shaman in the unit. That leaves very few grunts to attack, so you get quite few attacks for your points

Double choppas
- on smaller units, the extra cost isn't really noticeable
- if you do get to strike first, you can do a good amount of damage and against soft targets, few will get to strike back, so a lack of armour is not so vital
- some units won't break, and need to be killed to a man. That doesn't work so well with just one choppa.
- an Orc Boss with two choppas is quite nasty for a relatively low cost
- if you take a small unit with two choppas, people will often not bother shooting at it anyway
- on anything with S5 or more, Boyz with shields don't get much of a save either (I would say it is noticeable at S4, though)


Personally I don't mind running a large block of double-choppa Boyz and they do okay against not-too nasty enemy units (they are heaps better against Zombies, for example), but if I were to build another big block of Boyz, they would have shields, as I think that tends to come out better on average. I have had some good experiences with small detachment-style units of 10 Boyz with two choppas and a musician as support in my 'Ard Boyz theme list this spring, though.

Thankyou Avian. I played a lot of 6thed orcs and only a handful of 7thed orcs
and your tactica page helped alot. I consider myself an ok general. Not good but not terrible either. my first few games I struggled losing or drawing just about every game except one in which I got a massacere. I usually play against vampire counts (6th haven't played new VC yet) dwarves, chaos, darkelves (again 6th haven't new DE yet) and Empire.

Since I read your tactica my win ratio has been about 40 to 50 % where before it was about 10 %. The friends I play against all have much more experience than me. They play a few games a week and Im lucky to get two
or three games a month in if that. Anyway I just wanted to say thanx for
your tactica page It helped me alot:D

Fobster
20-08-2008, 14:05
I noticed someone used their night goblins in a 8/5 formation. Do you think you could go over the reasoning behind this?

Don't want to take the other thread off topic.

Malorian
20-08-2008, 14:39
If they have spears and nets that could be a fairly nasty unit to get stuck in combat with.

Avian
21-08-2008, 10:46
I assume you mean 8 wide by 5 deep? Personally I am going with this size for Skarsnik's Bigmob, since placing him off to one side coupled with the maximisation rules means that often only one model will be able to attack him.

semersonp
21-08-2008, 16:18
regular orc boys take shields if you're using them 25+ as your main footsoldiers... that +2 swing to armour save coupled with T4 really keeps them together...

savages get 2nd hand weapon because 19 attacks is just too good to pass up...

also...

giving gobbos spears...

bad doggies! :p

Malorian
21-08-2008, 16:26
Sounds like the shield option is in the lead...

warlord hack'a
21-08-2008, 16:52
shields on normal boyz, if you want loads of attacks you might as well get svg orcs:

normal orc with light armour and double choppa = 7 points, giving you a 6+ AS and 2 attacks
svg orc with single choppa = 8 points, giving you a 6+ wardsave (better) and 2 attacks. Plus panic free (nice on a ld 7 unit).

I love svg orcs.

sulla
21-08-2008, 22:25
shields on normal boyz, if you want loads of attacks you might as well get svg orcs:



No plastic savage orcs is the only thing stopping me starting an O&G army up again. I've got everything else I need as a result of skull pass and just collecting models I like, but if we ever see plastic savage orcs...:D

Grom Hellscream
22-08-2008, 06:47
i feel ya, I want a savage themed army, but the $$....

as for the 8x5 night gobs, i do that, it was 8x5 with spears - last edition. now its just nets and a BLORC bsb w/ morks thingummy... and if i think they're gonna shoot me a lot, i field 'em with the "lancy" 5 wide x 8 deep to guarentee that +3 dispel dice

quina2525
22-08-2008, 15:12
I play orcs with 2 choppas, and they do fairly well if they get the charge.

They do drop like flies.

Ive never played with shields, as all my orc models are the ones from the 6th ed box set.

Ive got some shields though and im gonna chop off a choppa[haahaa]
and give them shields and see how they fare.

Cheers for the info avian ;)

Da GoBBo
22-08-2008, 16:37
Before you start molesting your models you might just use em as proxies first :)

quina2525
23-08-2008, 02:32
Why the hell did i not think of that??

Must've wanted to molest my orc warriors too much :p