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Spooky
19-08-2008, 21:39
Many of the First Founding chapters either dismiss the idea of the Emperor being divine entirely or embrace it in a more circumspect way. In fact most of the prominent FF chapters do not even have chaplains in the tradition sense.

The Ultramarines however do.


Do you they embrace the divinity of the Emperor? Do they think he was merely the savior and apex of humanity or something else entirely?

heretics bane
19-08-2008, 21:42
The ultramarines take the codex astartes as the bible basicly and living so close to terra they would have a pretty strong church(cant spell the big word) presence.

Brother Enok
19-08-2008, 22:15
I belive they all revere the Emperor, but see him as simply the pinicle of mankind. A great man, but a man none the less. They are his genetic granchildren in a sense, so would be greatful and in awe of his prowess and genius. I think even the Templars revere him as the greatest of men, more than worship him as a god.
Hence the Church and Astartes often butting heads. The exception would of course the Chaplains, whom recive the Roasirus as a symbol of unity between them and the Eclesarchy (sp). Still, I think the Chaplains simply raise thier brothers to new hights of devotion and fervor, than worship him in a sense.

Praise, revere, respect, kneel before and beatify, maybe even pray to. but not worship as a Christian Worships Christ or a Muslim worships Alah.

Narf
19-08-2008, 22:26
ummm not so close to terra Bane.

Smurfs are on the eastern fringe, terra western/central galaxy, actually space wolves are shown to be closer to terra, and imperial fists roam pretty much next to it.

NARF

Death Before Dishonour
20-08-2008, 10:46
I belive they all revere the Emperor, but see him as simply the pinicle of mankind. A great man, but a man none the less. They are his genetic granchildren in a sense, so would be greatful and in awe of his prowess and genius. I think even the Templars revere him as the greatest of men, more than worship him as a god.
Hence the Church and Astartes often butting heads. The exception would of course the Chaplains, whom recive the Roasirus as a symbol of unity between them and the Eclesarchy (sp). Still, I think the Chaplains simply raise thier brothers to new hights of devotion and fervor, than worship him in a sense.

Praise, revere, respect, kneel before and beatify, maybe even pray to. but not worship as a Christian Worships Christ or a Muslim worships Alah.

I've never really understood the status of the Chaplin's in chapters as most marines seem to regard the emperor as a man, a great man but still a man. Why would they worship him as such with prayers etc and the boltgun being an instrument of his divine wrath etc..
Its always seemed a bit in consistent to me they worship him as a god but don't regards him as a god :confused:

Adra
20-08-2008, 11:21
Yeah that is a bit odd. i think the chaplins help keep marines faith in there mission and in their leader but its not for worship just faith in his plan and rule. not questioning His will and that sort of thing. Marines dont see the Emperor as a god but do except that he is a step above normal mankind and that his powers reach into almost god like status.

pookie
20-08-2008, 11:49
I've never really understood the status of the Chaplin's in chapters as most marines seem to regard the emperor as a man, a great man but still a man. Why would they worship him as such with prayers etc and the boltgun being an instrument of his divine wrath etc..
Its always seemed a bit in consistent to me they worship him as a god but don't regards him as a god :confused:

Chaplins were first introduced tho to ensure loyality rather than to indoctrinate marines ( i think thats the right term ), after Librarians were outlawed by the Couincil of Nikea.

After this edict Chaplins were introduced to watch for the signs of corruption and that the marines showed loyality, rather than to ensure Marines worshipped the Emp etc.

Worship is for the masses, Marines know diffrent and as pointed out before they seem the Emp as grand daddy rather than a God.

MvS
20-08-2008, 11:59
I think that most Codex Marines, of which the Ultramarines are the best example, still view the Emperor as their creator, the founder of the Imperium, the saviour of humanity and the most amazing superman that has ever lived or who will ever live.

Over the 10,000 years since the Emperor 'went silent' I think it is pretty clear that all Marine Chapters, including the Ultramarines, have been affected by the popular deification of the Emperor by the untold trillions of humans in the galaxy. This is shown in the very religious behaviour and language of the Ultramarines.

However, religiosity, even extreme religiosity, does not automatically imply complete deification of the object of veneration - in this case the Emperor.

Some Marine Chapters clearly do worship the Emperor as a god however, but doing so is not in the Codex Astartes and so therefore it will never be wholly on the Ultramarines agenda - even after a staggering 10,000 years of growing ignorance, superstition, compulsory Emperor worship within the Imperium and the fact that other 'gods' and miracles have manifested in that time.

The Ultramarines are very, very loyal to the great tome written by their Primarch.

Death Before Dishonour
20-08-2008, 12:03
Chaplins were first introduced tho to ensure loyality rather than to indoctrinate marines ( i think thats the right term ), after Librarians were outlawed by the Couincil of Nikea.

After this edict Chaplins were introduced to watch for the signs of corruption and that the marines showed loyality, rather than to ensure Marines worshipped the Emp etc.

Worship is for the masses, Marines know diffrent and as pointed out before they seem the Emp as grand daddy rather than a God.

Chaplin's were introduced at the council of Nikea rather than after the heresy then, seems a bit odd to be looking for disloyal marines before the heresy :confused:
And corruption wouldn't that be more of a job for apothecaries
I think most marines now view the emperor as a god as it squares with their monastic warrior ethos :p

pookie
20-08-2008, 12:12
Chaplin's were introduced at the council of Nikea rather than after the heresy then, seems a bit odd to be looking for disloyal marines before the heresy :confused:

sorry loyality was the wrong word, more to do with that they ( the Legions )were following the Emp's orders not to use Psykers. ( although do you not find it a tad ironic it was a Chaplin that helped corrupt most of the Traitor Legions )


And corruption wouldn't that be more of a job for apothecaries
I think most marines now view the emperor as a god as it squares with their monastic warrior ethos :p

Apoths can only help with genetic corruption, i meant the corruption that comes about from medling with the warp.

Tommygun
20-08-2008, 12:14
I think the Ultramarines revere the Emperor in the same way a Britain may revere, say King Arthur.
A great leader, with great power, but still a man.
I have always thought of the Chaplains as morale officers and some what of a "Checker", in that they look for signs of Chaos in the ranks.

Death Before Dishonour
20-08-2008, 12:23
sorry loyality was the wrong word, more to do with that they ( the Legions )were following the Emp's orders not to use Psykers. ( although do you not find it a tad ironic it was a Chaplin that helped corrupt most of the Traitor Legions )



Apoths can only help with genetic corruption, i meant the corruption that comes about from medling with the warp.

ah, yes good old Erebus

I like the idea that were kind of like commissars ensuring that the emperor's will was carried out.

I've often wondered this point, I'd have thought only a Psyker would be able to tell if someone is corrupted or not, how could a Chaplin be able to tell if someone was serving Chaos.

Brother Siccarius
20-08-2008, 12:40
I've never really understood the status of the Chaplin's in chapters as most marines seem to regard the emperor as a man, a great man but still a man. Why would they worship him as such with prayers etc and the boltgun being an instrument of his divine wrath etc..
Its always seemed a bit in consistent to me they worship him as a god but don't regards him as a god :confused:

They revere him as someone to be exemplified, and who should be followed. Prayer isn't always to a god, you can pray for enlightenment from a being that you simply wish to follow by example as well. Never heard of Buddhism? Words like "divinity" have vast swathes of meaning behind them other than "godlike".

Faustburg
20-08-2008, 12:52
I've often wondered this point, I'd have thought only a Psyker would be able to tell if someone is corrupted or not, how could a Chaplin be able to tell if someone was serving Chaos.

How can a psychiatrist judge if someone in mentally ill?

"Ahem, Brother Bedlam, I'd like to see you in my office after you are done with your training here... Now, how are you feeling? Uh-hu... You see, I'm a bit concerned about the report that you were yelling... now, what was it *shuffling through files*...here... 'Gore for the Gore God', as your squad was storming the Ork bunker las week. Is there something you would like to tell me about that incident?"

Death Before Dishonour
20-08-2008, 13:22
How can a psychiatrist judge if someone in mentally ill?

"Ahem, Brother Bedlam, I'd like to see you in my office after you are done with your training here... Now, how are you feeling? Uh-hu... You see, I'm a bit concerned about the report that you were yelling... now, what was it *shuffling through files*...here... 'Gore for the Gore God', as your squad was storming the Ork bunker las week. Is there something you would like to tell me about that incident?"

lol :D

well I'd consider if someone is corrupt and thus highly secretive harder to get answers out of when they are on the Chaplin's couch doing visualtion excercises.
"look at this picture what do you see....":p

On a serious note I seem to remember in one of the space wolf books about each applicant being probed and tested psychicly to see if they would fall to chaos

pookie
20-08-2008, 14:12
On a serious note I seem to remember in one of the space wolf books about each applicant being probed and tested psychicly to see if they would fall to chaos

all chapters do this at the stage of recruitment, doesnt mean they wont be tainted later on tho.

ryng_sting
20-08-2008, 18:03
Ultramarines view the Emperor as most Space Marines do - a supremely powerful man with god-like powers and vision, but still just a man.

Mr Carrot
20-08-2008, 18:32
As Brother Enok points out it is possible to view an individual as an empowered super being or god (small g) and pray to them and revere them without viewing them as God.

The Greeks and Romans with their pantheon had great men with godlike powers, supreme heroes and the like, its not too much of stretch to see in the 41st millenium marines viewing the greatest man as having god like powers, and being responsive to prayers. It is only in our current climate with our predominant religions and cultures obsession with Abrahamic omniscient and omnipotent beings which no one is capable of ever reaching equivelent power with. Or more importantly ever view as taking rational courses of action, make mistakes, interact with the physical plane directly. Greek gods were faliable powerful entities - just like the Chaos gods are depicted - so it is not too much of a stretch to see that the UMarines with their current roman theme treating the Emperor like a roman god.

biggreengribbly
20-08-2008, 18:33
ah, yes good old Erebus

I like the idea that were kind of like commissars ensuring that the emperor's will was carried out.

I've often wondered this point, I'd have thought only a Psyker would be able to tell if someone is corrupted or not, how could a Chaplin be able to tell if someone was serving Chaos.

If I remember correctly however, 'Chaplains' within the Word Bearers legion predated the council of Nikea, and were perhaps a little closer to their current incarnation of inspirational warrior/demagogues than the form the Emperor took when he stole their idea to make his little internal-affairs teams.

MarinesInSpace
21-08-2008, 03:14
I think I have to agree with everyone who says that the UM worship the Emperor not as a god in the Judeo-Christian sense, but as the most powerful, Important man who ever lived. I like the connection with King Arthur. I would think of the emperor, as well as the primarchs to be a sort of demi-god.

darth mortis
21-08-2008, 14:26
it may be possible that they look too the big e with so much awe because he basicly kicked the crap out of all the primarchs in contests ( if they did not know who he was at first hand ) or was classed as a draw etc etc which were like demi gods in there own rights. in this sense they maybe worship his power not his divinity? and the fact that he gave mankind a purpose in the stars.
i thought the bt didnt have psychers so how would they test psychicly for taint?.

ChaosTicket
21-08-2008, 14:49
Chaplains are the disciplinairy officers of tha Astartes. They fullfil the role of Commisar more than Priest. They also train the neophyte astartes and instruct them on how to adapt and use their astartes strength and organs.

Ultramarines, like nearly every chapter, worship the Emperor as the Ultimate Human.

Black Templars don't have psykers are it isn't in part of their gene-seed, a noticeable flaw, but one they have adapted too, almost the entire Black Templars chapter are unofficial Witch Hunters.

Lion El Jason
21-08-2008, 17:22
Chaplains do pre-date the council of nikea.

Also note librarians were never outlawed. Only sorcery. Theres nothing wrong with Psykers nor Psychic abilities.