PDA

View Full Version : how to take out bolt throwers



Seraphon
05-11-2005, 22:31
i have been playing a friend(high elves) of mine who tends to take about 4 bolt throwers and everytime they get me and destroy my army (dark elves) is there anyway i can destroy all of them as i can usually only manage to take 2 out with my own bolt throwers any advice?

starlight
05-11-2005, 22:36
A hammer?

:p

Sadly my Dark Elf knowledge is lacking......

Nazguire
06-11-2005, 00:07
i have been playing a friend(high elves) of mine who tends to take about 4 bolt throwers and everytime they get me and destroy my army (dark elves) is there anyway i can destroy all of them as i can usually only manage to take 2 out with my own bolt throwers any advice?


Shades are good at that, being able to get to them quickly and pepper them with repeater crossbows. Or you could draft in Mengil Manhide and his Manflayers...but they are very expensive and should only be used in larger games.

Magic is also good. Chillwind is a goo idea, but Dark Magic is very short ranged to really affect the Bolters to early in combat.

turelhim vampire
06-11-2005, 00:35
Maybe a unit of Harpies, as they are fast and can kill the warmachine crews with relative ease.

My Dark Elf knowledge is also lacking, so I don't know how much help this is. :(

Frankly
06-11-2005, 00:39
Fast cavalry and flyers are the 2 main ways of taking out War machine crews

Bubble Ghost
06-11-2005, 03:58
If they're anything like my bolt throwers, ignore them and laugh as they miss with every single shot they ever take. My usual anti-war machine tactics are to completely ignore them, and wait for them to miss or misfire. It often works.

Magic isn't such a hot idea, for dark elves anyway. Too short-ranged and kind of unreliable even when you get the spells off (say 4 hits for Chillwind, 1 or 2 on the crew, 50/50 chance of offing one, tops... not exactly party time). Shades, fast cavalry and harpies are your best bets, if nothing else just to park in front of the bolt throwers to stop them shooting anyone else. You might also want to consider what happens during your terrain set-up; if you've got one of those gaming groups that doesn't consider it a proper game unless both players have a hill in their deployment zone, see how the High Elf player likes it with no hills in his deployment zone and three woods in the way between you and his bolt throwers.

Mars
06-11-2005, 13:43
Ignore Bolt Throwers? Do you play exclusively with Skirmishers or something?

True enough they're tricky to get rid off. Stuff that might help:

- Panic, especially if there's no general nearby. Than again you're fighting HE with DE, so never mind...
- Flyer units, i.e. Harpies. Skirmish and mobile. Maybe try to only have LoS on a crew member, so he can't actually shoot them.
- Deny targets: sounds odd, but if he deploys the RBTs badly, you can just deny his LoS.
- Skirmishers as a screen.
- Your own missile fire: massed Rxb would help if you can get in range, or your own RBT.
- Magic. Tricky, but doable: you only need to cause one wound with Chillwind.
- Shades: shoot/charge/both. Can also be tried with Dark Riders, but be prepared for high losses.
- Ignore them: although this would be strongly determined by deployment, it could be feasable do refuse a flank (the one with the most Bolt Throwers), charge forward and hope you can break him in close combat. You get hatred for something I guess.

That's about it I think. The good news he doesn't do much better against your own RBTs, so you could counter by taking plenty of them as well.

Bubble Ghost
07-11-2005, 01:31
"Ignore them" was a bit of an exaggeration, and was as much a joke about my own hopeless bolt thrower crews as anything else, but I don't see enemy bolt throwers as something that must be destroyed at all costs. I can accept that they're probably going to kill something, and I'll often send a token unit of Shades to annoy war machine crews, but I find the combination of speed and low numbers is my army's best war machine defence; makes it easier to hide behind terrain features/other units and stop them getting off enough shots against worthwhile targets.

Hence my point about terrain setup. I've noticed lots of players fight battles on boards which invariably have one or two hills in deployment for each player and minimal cover in between, and if you're a dark elf army routinely getting strafed full of holes by bolt throwers then there's a fair possibility that this is a contributing factor.

Mad Makz
07-11-2005, 05:17
There's an easy solution for Dark Elves, but you might not like it...

Dragon. :)

Scythe
07-11-2005, 10:32
Hmm, single bolts and a dragon usually don't match up very well... especially when there are 4 bolts comming at you per game turn...

Mad Makz
09-11-2005, 08:07
Single bolts aren't actually that scary in the scheme of things, assuming you have a wood to hide behind first turn. They have to hit, they have to wound, they then have to do enough wounds, plus you can have your dark elf lord on top who may take the hit (he has to be appropriately armoured).

Realistically you are looking at one turn to get into charge range, so you have to survive one turn of shooting against them at worst (assuming you can hide so you won't be targetted first turn.)

You hide first turn, then fly out - On the stats: 4 shots, lets say two are close range, two are long, so two hit on 2's, two hit on 3's. We'll say three hits. To wound. On average, one will go on the lord, so you'll want a ward save on the lord. Strength 6 versus toughness 6 on the dragon, so 1 wound on the dragon, multiplies by D3. So the dragon is DEFINITELY alive, Lord may be in trouble though, depends on your ward.

Shades of course, are the more viable option. But the dragon would likely make a mess of the army anyway BESIDES the 4 Bolt throwers.

Scythe
09-11-2005, 08:22
Then again, do you really want a 500 pts dragon rider to go of and chase 100 pts bolt throwers? I'd rather take some cheaper units...

Mars
10-11-2005, 12:05
@ Bubble Ghost: I thought that's what you ment, but I've had some very bad experiences with ignoring enemy war machines (think Dwarven Cannons facing CoCs :cries: ), so I reacted rather harsh.

True enough a Dragon would work very nice: it can survive quite a lot of Bolt Thrower fire (especially if you restrict his LoS), and he'll rip up the enemy army singel-handedly (a Lord with Hatred, mounted on a big monster usually doesn't mix well with those lightly armoured, expensive High Elves).

Now that I think of it, I don't think HE really have anything that can match our characters in close combat (excellent armour vs poor armour, we hit harder, although HE do have better Ward Saves).

Scythe
10-11-2005, 12:38
And they get their items cheaper, which is quite an advantage.

nikolai7
10-11-2005, 13:07
dogs of war cannons.. the galloper guns are amazing..

Savnock
10-11-2005, 15:33
This fellow plays Dark Elves. Telling him to ignore RBTs is a terrible idea. DE absolutely cannot take fire from 4 of those things.

Dragon is also not a hot idea- it's a waste on war machines, and vulnerable to a cavlary charge if it's that close in for that long.
Panic's also not going to work, as his general is probably nearby and Elves don't run enough even at the basic 8.

Really, you need to combine the four things listed below, as no one will work alone versus 4 BTs. The good thing is, all of these items are also useful for other things once you've finished off the BTs- Dark Riders will then be in a good flanking position, harpies can kill mages and archer units, noble can join combats of ranked units that need more strength, etc. So:


Best bet- harpies. Charge, kill, repeat. Try to stay out of arc of any archers. If you can't help it, try not to weather more than one turn of fire. Take 9 to make it neccessary to kill 3 for their terrible panic test.

Second best bet- Noble on pegasus, cloak, enchanted shield, lance. Fly to the flank, where only one BT can shoot you, if possible. Grit your teeth and take that one shot he gets on the chin. Then butcher him.

Third best bet: Dark Rider charge. Not shooting, even at close range- that's hopeless.

Fourth best- Chillwind. Actually not that bad, as you do have a 50/50 chance of offing one guy if it goes off, and that's all you need. I fyou have 2 mages, that's 2 Chillwinds/round. Your mages need to be close in to do much anyways, so don't worry about being outranged.

As I said, use these things together. No 1 will survive, but some of all 4 will wipe those BTs out in a turn andd then still be sitting pretty on your enemy's flank. With all those points in war machines, his CC units are probably either weak or out numbered.

Venerable Player
10-11-2005, 22:27
i have been playing a friend(high elves) of mine who tends to take about 4 bolt throwers and everytime they get me and destroy my army (dark elves) is there anyway i can destroy all of them as i can usually only manage to take 2 out with my own bolt throwers any advice?

When I play my HEs against a friend's DEs he usually squashes me. DE armies are agile and mobile. At 2000pts try a manticore/dragon combo with scouts, that usually does it to my 2-4 throwers.

VP

Scythe
11-11-2005, 08:32
Fourth best- Chillwind. Actually not that bad, as you do have a 50/50 chance of offing one guy if it goes off, and that's all you need. I fyou have 2 mages, that's 2 Chillwinds/round. Your mages need to be close in to do much anyways, so don't worry about being outranged.


Mah, I wouldn't count on it too much. Bolt Throwers are usually behind the main battle line and more on flanks, so it is usually difficult to target them within 24". Not to mention you have to get the spell off, hope for enough hits, randomize to the crew, and then wound something. Not great odds for me.

ElfGuy
11-11-2005, 18:37
A Beastmaster or Nobel on a Dark Pegasus.
A small unit of Harpies.
A small unit of Shades.
Two or more small units of Darkriders.
All of this stuff with few upgrades to keep the points cost down. Keep everythig hidden behind other units/terrian for the first turn, then move everything in charge range of a bolt thrower or two. Your opponent will not be able to eliminate all of these targets in one turn, especially if not all the bolt throwers have line of sight. Then charge with anything that has not been killed.

god octo
11-11-2005, 18:44
If you have some, you could use a unit of fliers, or if you really need to take out the RBs sacrifice a unit and try to get as near as possible. The loss of an unit may be worth the loss of your opponents RB.

Crazy Harborc
11-11-2005, 18:55
Fast cav being able to march/double move and shoot in the same turn is one answer my opponent uses. Dark riders and shades are his usual choices.

I preferred him using harpies. They died sooo well.

Kahadras
11-11-2005, 19:57
Flying will screw him up. I played a guy who took RBT in his High Elf army and I just presented him with a juicy target to shoot at for the couple of turns untill my flyers (Pegasus knights as I was playing Bretonnia) jumped him. Thats the best bet IMO.

Kahadras

PoiuyWired
11-11-2005, 20:52
or, bring 4 units of pegasus knights, and a church-flinger

Frankly
12-11-2005, 12:35
That might be abit hard since he's playing DE.