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View Full Version : Using 'size matters': Have you found it matters?



Malorian
20-08-2008, 17:48
It seems one of the best things O&G have going for them is the Size Matters rule. Much like my ogres don't take panic tests from gnoblars, orc units don't take panic tests from 'lesser units.

I was reading Avian's Orc tactica page (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/greenskin_battle_tactics.php) and he had a formation which had from left to right:

chariot, orcs, goblins, troll, orcs, troll, goblins, orcs, chariot

With this setup the chariots and trolls don't cause panic as they are less than US 1. The goblins are kept more than 6 inches apart to aviod panic test from each other, as are the orc units. (Obviously the general is in the center orc unit.)

I've been toying with this idea of size matters and have come up with several different formations, such as having a screen of night goblins in the front (joined by a black orc to keep them moving) and then behind them having the large blocks of orcs and chariots. So the night goblins act as a missile screen and when you are about to deal with charges the black orc joins the orcs behind, and then the goblins can bait the charge/redirect/speed bump as needed without causing any panic on the units behind.

But I'm wondering what the rest of you think. Do you orc generals out there take Size Matters into consideration when you are making your lists and setting up your deployment? Or have you found it too restrictive and only take the advantages as they come in return for using other tactics?

Thoughts?


Edit: This should be in the tactics thread. If a mod wants to move it that would be great.

Braad
20-08-2008, 19:51
Sometimes I take it into consideration, sometimes not. Doesn't really depends on anything, just on the stuff that goes on in my mind at the moment.
It can be helpfull to take it into consideration, ofcourse.

I do not tend to come up with tactics like you mention though. I don't see how they would improve the overall gaming experience.

And you really don't want your night gobbo screen roll 3 ones in a row for its animosity tests... Trust me, it happens.

Malorian
20-08-2008, 20:12
And you really don't want your night gobbo screen roll 3 ones in a row for its animosity tests... Trust me, it happens.

Thus the black ork character in the goblin unit.

I figure two units of 40 with a joined character would be enough to cover most of you army and still not be overly expensive. Then once they flee a charge they can reform and be a fairly effective unit.

To get the full effect of it, it seems you would have to have large blocks of black orcs (20-25), with small units of regular orcs to support it (10 with extra choppa), and then a screen of goblins.

But at the same time you would be wanting to get the ranks from the cheaper boyz than the costly black orks...

Znail
20-08-2008, 20:16
I have atleast considered the nightgoblin screen with blackorcs in. You essentialy need the blackorc to stay in the unit the first turn. The second turn he can quell any animosity and then leave the unit during that durn (he doesnt have to stay the entire turn after all, just be there at the start) and join his 'real' unit. This way the screen is guaranteed to move forward the first two turns and goblins are pretty cheap to lose 1D6 of.

Shimmergloom
21-08-2008, 00:01
I have atleast considered the nightgoblin screen with blackorcs in. You essentialy need the blackorc to stay in the unit the first turn. The second turn he can quell any animosity and then leave the unit during that durn (he doesnt have to stay the entire turn after all, just be there at the start) and join his 'real' unit. This way the screen is guaranteed to move forward the first two turns and goblins are pretty cheap to lose 1D6 of.

If the night goblins march then he cannot leave the unit. As he has used up all his movement.

And if the orcs then fail animosity then he won't make it back to the orcs unless you move less than 4 inches. In which case you are in just as bad a situation as you would be if the goblins had failed animosity.

You're going nowhere.

Also, there's this thing called character limits. You can only take 4 characters and you are going to want 1-2 shamans at least. So you can't just stick black orcs into every unit on the field and say that animosity is not a problem.

Gobbo Lord
21-08-2008, 02:20
The Problem with size matters is not inherant in the rule itself. The rule is great, and on paper looks like a great advanatge to the army.

Its the fact that to run a sucsessful list in the current army book you need to run mainly orcs. Goblins and Night Goblins are to expensive for what they (dont) do when compared to Orcs. And so applying it to units of goblin screners is, in my experience, a waste of energy. 20 night goblins with a musician is 64 points. For that you can get 10 Orcs with choppa and shield giving you two extra ranks to add to current units. Or a unit of 10 arrer Boyz with musician.

The only thing that is nice is your fast cavalry wont panic your main battle line. Though I auto break so often these days against dam infinite' skeletons that I pay little attention to the fact my goblins dont panic my orcs, at the end of the day everything breaks anyway, having a bsb is not fun when you need double one.......

Played Vamps tonight, good game, took out his Black Coach on turn one, Vargulf turn two, got into combat with my horde of "awsome hard combat troops", Auto broke over the next few turns and watched my army crumble once again. Bonus laughs though, his Vampire Lord general miscast and rolled double one resulting in being pulled into the warp...

Znail
21-08-2008, 02:47
If the night goblins march then he cannot leave the unit. As he has used up all his movement.
He can leave the night goblins before they move, so no problem there.


And if the orcs then fail animosity then he won't make it back to the orcs unless you move less than 4 inches. In which case you are in just as bad a situation as you would be if the goblins had failed animosity.
If the orcs failed the first check then he can let them move first before he leaves the goblins to join them, so no problem here either. Its also quite possible to have more units following behind then you have Black Orcs and joining the ones you thing benifits you most. Mounting them on Boars will make it easy to move them around among the units.


You're going nowhere.
I disagree, but keep the critique comming as it helps show that this might work.


Also, there's this thing called character limits. You can only take 4 characters and you are going to want 1-2 shamans at least. So you can't just stick black orcs into every unit on the field and say that animosity is not a problem.
2 Black Orcs and 2 Shamans, works for me!

Malorian
21-08-2008, 15:01
The comment that 20 goblins is the same cost as 10 boyz is a good one as far as missile losses are concerned, but have that goblin unit out front also lets you release fanatics and then use the unit to bait/redirect. This makes them very attractive.

Gobbo lord: If skeletons are giving you trouble then this would work even better. The skeletons charge the goblins (or orc screen) and overrun into your boyz behind (no use baiting because they will just vanhels into the orcs). Then on your turn you can counter charge and do some serious damage to the unit.

I still haven't thought of a good way for orcs to deal with cairn wraiths though...

Gobbo Lord
21-08-2008, 15:15
Yeah undead are awful, Carin Wraiths are very tough to beat. They move 6, 12 inch march, can unleash fanatics with no worries, cause terror. Can only be hurt by magic weapons and misslies. I find that i usually end up sending every magic missile I have their way to try and kill them. But with undeads huge pile of dispel dice it is hard to get them through. And if you do the undead player can spam reraising them, one wound at a time.

Plus I find that dealing serious damage to a unit is fine. The other day I charged wolf riders into the back of Grave Guard and managed the Waaagh spell (Irresistable) to get a block of 25 orcs with two choppas into their flanks. I bounced off them spectaculary, not causing many wounds (Regen banner) but still wining the combat. This is the second big problem other than outnumbered by fear causers, undead do not break. They reraise their losses and whilst your unit of Orcs is locked in combat they can move Carin Wraiths, Vargulfs etc int them, turning the tide in their favour No matter how much you hurt them in the first turn.

Size matters is handy, yes you can redirect or bait with goblins, Or get them destroyed so your Orc unit takes an overrun charge. But id rather 10 extra Orcs in the regiment taking the charge so I have better odds of not Auto Breaking. Im playing a tournament (My First) on Sunday, and im praying I dont face Vampire Counts.

Malorian
21-08-2008, 15:28
With the O&G army I'm planning, I'm not planning to have any magic at all (other than a lvl1 NG hero with staff of sneaky stealing). As you say (and is very much the case in my group) there is just too much magic out there and if it isn't your forte you're better off just going defensive.

Actually this vampire scenario is one of the reasons I'm questioning Size Matters. Using the rule you would have a units of goblins besides the orcs who would than be doing the counter charging, but against undead you would want the most kills possible, so the counter charge unit would be better off being 10 orcs with extra choppas, or better yet, 10 savage orcs with extra choppas. Then the only way to make size matters work is to have your big block be black orcs which quickly bumps up the cost.

Seems the best bet is to have goblins in the front, then big blocks of orcs for combat res, and supported by small groups of savage orcs and chariots.

semersonp
21-08-2008, 16:06
yep, 'size matters' matters...

its a nice feature to have when you've fled from a charge with your wolf riders or spiders... they can do their bit of business without a concern for your bigger footsloggers turning tail...

though i don't know why you'd suggest building some rube goldberg device of an army... may as well suggest an 'all night gobbo' force... sigh

orc + gob are the ultimate variegated army... take a smatter of troops... squigs, black orcs, regular boys, gobbos, night gobbos, giants, snotlings oh my! each bit of madness compliments the whole...

besides, why would poor gobbos run around (or leave their beloved tunnels in the case of night goblins) if it weren't for bullying orcs shoving them down the road of war? orcs, goblins and snotlings form a precarious tripod... remove even one leg and you've got nothing that will stand up against other forces...

greenskins unite!

play to bring glory to the horde... not to perpetuate some mad scheme of yours that is a one note pony! (tpb)

anyway, yeah 'size matters' is a nice little molecule of meat on this bone they've thrown us in 7th edition... just don't go all crazy on it...

Urgat
21-08-2008, 17:47
Its the fact that to run a sucsessful list in the current army book you need to run mainly orcs

How so? My win/loss ratio is positive with my all gob lists, and negative with my mixed lists... And there's hundreds of battles behind that claim, not just a dozen for each. You just need to go with sneaky plans rather than hope that this or that unit will deal enough damage.

eagletsi1
21-08-2008, 20:06
I have seen it used to great effect.

One of our standard OG players does the following.

Orc with Black Orc.
Night Goblins with Fantatics
Stubborn snotlings.

He puts his snotlings in front to take shooting, Night Goblins behind(Large problably 35 or so) and Orc's with Black Orc hero behind them. If the Orcs move forward to animostiy they hit the Night Goblins and stop.

Then he moves his snotlings forward about 6 inches, continually keeping distance. If you don't charge them he just keeps moving foward. When you finally do charge because you are with-in 8" the Fanatics are released, then he just has to roll a 6 because of the 40mm bases and his Fanatics will hit his own unit and pop through them striking your unit that charged. He usually anyway if you break them you run into his net weilding goblins and then even if you break them his units behind don't care.

It works well for him, He also protects his flank by using chariots and other Goblin units with Fanatics and snotlings. If you sit around and don't engage he just he bombards you with Stones, and Bolt's with a little Flying goblins too.

His list and strategy works well. It's tough to crack.

Hope that helps,

woytek
21-08-2008, 20:51
So he has three units BEHIND eachother, of which the middle one suffers animosity?? How can he possible handle that. I can't imagine an army like that working. He would be flanked in no time.

Malorian
21-08-2008, 22:20
This is the kind of thing I'm worried of. Trying things like that which are tactically a mistake (assuming you aren't fighting in a passage 300 style).

Cragspyder
21-08-2008, 23:33
I have seen it used to great effect.

One of our standard OG players does the following.

Orc with Black Orc.
Night Goblins with Fantatics
Stubborn snotlings.

He puts his snotlings in front to take shooting, Night Goblins behind(Large problably 35 or so) and Orc's with Black Orc hero behind them. If the Orcs move forward to animostiy they hit the Night Goblins and stop.

Then he moves his snotlings forward about 6 inches, continually keeping distance. If you don't charge them he just keeps moving foward. When you finally do charge because you are with-in 8" the Fanatics are released, then he just has to roll a 6 because of the 40mm bases and his Fanatics will hit his own unit and pop through them striking your unit that charged. He usually anyway if you break them you run into his net weilding goblins and then even if you break them his units behind don't care.

It works well for him, He also protects his flank by using chariots and other Goblin units with Fanatics and snotlings. If you sit around and don't engage he just he bombards you with Stones, and Bolt's with a little Flying goblins too.

His list and strategy works well. It's tough to crack.

Hope that helps,

See, that's what I was trying to hypothesize about in the giant thread in the General Forum "Why do people want Orcs to suck?". Though in this case I see problems when both the Goblin and Orc unit in a paticular line roll 1's for Animosity. but they remain protected by both Fanatics and Snotlings regardless.

I don't think it would be that easy to flank, especially since he is covering the flanks with fast units and expendable Goblins.

Besides, its hard to argue with a real, live, winning record, though I suppose it is the internet so it could be all lies.

sephiroth87
22-08-2008, 04:16
I use the size matters rule liberally with my fast cavalry. I'm more willing to flee with my fast cav, knowing my infantry units (mainly orcs) won't panic. Other bonuses are usually incidental in my games.

Grom Hellscream
22-08-2008, 06:43
well, i sure like it - not that its much different from last edition - but it lets me sacrifice a block of orcs to let my black orcs charge some tough expensive unit in the flank....