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northoceanbeach
20-08-2008, 17:44
I am surprised I haven't heard it talked about on here but am hasn't it become apparent that this is maybe the most broken codex they've ever written?

They are just the one army that you cannot play against and have a fun game. The only way to beat them, and then it's only to have a chance to beat tham is to make the greasiest army possible, completely tailored to taking out orks.

I just think it's sad that people can't play their armies against them and have a fun or close game. Even normal ork lists are just disgusting. It's sad that maybe some guy has whatever army and he's painted it all nice, and then some ork player come with his broken unpainted junk and smokes him with no stategy. Because those are two things I never see an Ork player have, a painted army or any strategy. And I can't blame them for the lack of strategy because you don't need it, it's the worst example of just throw your crap on the table and charge I've ever seen.

How they came up with the basic 6 point troops is beyond me.
furious charge
great shooting
great close combat
constant 4+ cover saves
fast either with fleet, running or transport, a transport they can assault out of
unbreakable leadership.
the only unit that has a hidden powerfist that no matter how many wounds you get, you still cannot kill
3-4 attacks
6 points

Then of course you add things like:
Characters that give these units a 4+ fnp for a nominal cost, or allow them to come off your table edge and move and assault you, with absolutely nothing to prevent it.

Jump pack troops that are cheap, again have hidden powerfists and can maybe assault you turn one.

There really is just no way to stop this army, I'm totally frustrated with it.

Grimbad
20-08-2008, 17:52
Funny, I play orks and haven't won a single 5th edition game but me and my opponents have enjoyed all of them. I play either a feral ork-themed wazdakka-led biker list or an infantry horde with two weirdboyz. The weirdboyz have a tendency to mess up my plans in big ways, but I love them anyways.

Danny Internet
20-08-2008, 17:57
Yes, Orks have an unbelievably strong codex, particularly at the 1500-1850 points level. Above that they start to taper off, but are still extremely competitive. We'll see what the new SM codex has to offer (right know we know what's in it, roughly, but it doesn't matter much if we don't know the point costs).

My guess is that official GW tournaments (other than 'Ard Boyz, due to it being 2500 points) will see utter dominance of Orks and Tyranids this year.

Lord Damocles
20-08-2008, 18:00
I am surprised I haven't heard it talked about on here
Answering your own question perhaps?
Maybe people arn't complaining because there's really not so much to complain about...

Adra
20-08-2008, 18:06
Its a good codex. Yes its strong but also fun and with pitfalls. Now riddle me this...if we havent heared anything about the ork codex and its "broken", just how bad was that chaos codex? :D

Zephyr_Azure
20-08-2008, 18:08
Horde infantry swarms are over-rated. They give up a lot of kill-points. It may be hard to adjust if you built your army to down MEQs.


I've beaten the 150 ork swarm at 1500 points but my army is predominatly anti-infantry. I prefer mass fire to down MEQ armor so there be two devastator squads with 4 HBs each ready to mow down lanes and 2 assault squads with flamers to catch the stormboys (those flamers tend to get lucky on MEQ saves too). Throw in 2 tactical squads to hold the line and two dreadnoughts for anti-tank and you got something good.

I also have two whirlwinds on those days where I need to shave points and not use my dev squads.

This army also succeeds against MEQ swarms. Only struggles against heavy armor.

Waaagh Grignak
20-08-2008, 18:12
Orks only get a save (6+ at that) against lasguns and shotguns, everything else will kill them dead.

Lootas were broken in 4th ed, but following the changes to the damage table they have been appropriatley toned down!

Tankbustas... are rubbish, they have to shoot at any vehicle in SIGHT, not just range, so if they can see a landraider across the board they have to waste there shots?!

Large mobs are fearless yes, but all those small trukk mobs, lootas etc only have LD7 as the iron gobs have been removed! Given the orks crap armour, its not too hard to remove enough of the larger units to make them run away?

FNP has been nurfed to a great extent, so much that i dont bother with the 30pt upgrade anymore.

Stormboyz have lost the waaagh rule so they no longer have a one turn charge.


The hardest games i have are against balanced armies, they have enough shooty to reduce my numbers and enough choppy to fight off the remaining orks!

Badger[Fr]
20-08-2008, 18:14
Granted, the latest Ork Codex is nothing to be snuffed at, but Orks have several drawbacks as well: they lack S9+ shooting weapons, their leadership is rather mediocre (Ork mobs are fearless, but will therefore take severe casulaties in close combat), and their armor saves are, on average, very low. What kind of armies your opponents had been fielding?

Chem-Dog
20-08-2008, 18:14
.... great shooting.....

There really is just no way to stop this army, I'm totally frustrated with it.

Bs 2 is lousy shooting, no matter who you are.

I don't think the Ork list is broken, just incredibly flexible and powerful.
I do feel your pain though, I've played a handful of battles against an experienced Ork player and his force seems to batter me to death every time, it's the Trukks that really screw me though.

Morganstern
20-08-2008, 18:18
I played a game at 1000 pts last night against an Ork army that outnumbered my Chaos army nearly 4-1. I wiped them out. Orks aren't that broken.
Also in my local GW there are several nicely painted Ork armys.

Warjammer
20-08-2008, 18:28
Most armies in tournaments have been tailored to fight MEQ armies due to the prevelance of the army. Now with the Orks adding more flavor to the tournaments many armies understandably cannot deal with them since only a few years ago the orks were rarely played. Give it some time and you will see people will be able to adjust. With the new consolidate rule flamers in your reserve units can be real nasty. This happens whenever an army comes out. We may see a little of this for the new Marine Codex.

totgeboren
20-08-2008, 18:29
I have about 3000 pts orks, plus a stompa that took me over a year to build.

Now, after giving the codex a chance, having played well over 20 games with it, I can safely say that it is overpowered. I have lost two of those games, and both were objective-based games where the enemy managed to take out my troops. In those two game i only used two troops too.

Now im playing my Word Bearers again. Damn, its hard to play chaos with no Cult troops. Havnt won once with the new chaos codex, though I have only played 3 games. :)

Reaver83
20-08-2008, 18:47
I've played a few peoples orks with my CSM's they are very competent gamers who all play different lists, (Hoard, Kult of Speed, Lots of elites,) and I've not lost yet (not always won), I'll be honest I've changed my standard all comers list to take in a couple of flamers now, but I find that they are a hard army to play, and you really need to prioritise targets!

northoceanbeach
20-08-2008, 19:08
;2881745']Granted, the latest Ork Codex is nothing to be snuffed at, but Orks have several drawbacks as well: they lack S9+ shooting weapons, their leadership is rather mediocre (Ork mobs are fearless, but will therefore take severe casulaties in close combat), and their armor saves are, on average, very low. What kind of armies your opponents had been fielding?

Lack of strength 9 shooting only mattered in fourth. NOw when with your great speed you can assault vehicles, and you always hit the back which almost always is armour 10. Basic troops can hurt it, powerfists can demolish it. I would rather do that these days than try to hit the front with spendy lascannons.

Bs 2 is lousy shooting, no matter who you are.

I don't think the Ork list is broken, just incredibly flexible and powerful.
I do feel your pain though, I've played a handful of battles against an experienced Ork player and his force seems to batter me to death every time, it's the Trukks that really screw me though.

bs 2 is lousy shooting. But that's not the only factor that decides good shooting or bad.

What makes for good shooting is that they are 6 points, so for the cost of equivalent number of guard or of 25 orks to 10 chaos or space marines, you get a gun that get 2 shots at up to 24" with the move since it is assault, also, it is assault so you can shoot and then charge. it is the same strength as a bolte, and while you may hit quite less often, you get many more shots because you get so many more guns for the points.

I would say for 180 points 60 strength 4 shots that have the potential to then have a deadly following charge is fantastic shooting. Even if only 1/3 hit.
And it has 2 shots at greater range than any other troop guns besides grey knights.

Somnicide
20-08-2008, 19:10
Orks are only broken if your list is geared to kill MEQs. Low numbers of high quality shots aren't very useful against Orks, whereas they are the bread and butter against Marines.

bassmasterliam
20-08-2008, 19:32
Northoceanbeach what kind of list are you using/what race. If you tell us then we can show you how to kill orks, i find that massed bolter fire helps and basically any high armoured tank like for example, i love my predator destructor when playing against orks, i can use all weapons for both anti-tank and anti infantry.

Grogugluk
20-08-2008, 19:40
The ork lists are very strong lists however a couple things in 5th really lower there power level from my expierence.

1. In combat now because of the no retreat special rule combined with 6+ armor save they just get completely owned. People were afraid of the 30 ork shoota mob that is fearless that could take a charge from something and stick around for at least 2 turns while more boyz came into kill.

Now if you charge that squad with say some assault marines and win by 10 then they could lose another 8 or so orks just from combat rez.

2. With the way scoring units work now orks don't really have a troop choice that is designed to stay on objectives in their own deployment zone. I've found that my trukker mobs and shoota mobs go flying forward and alot of the time I can't get my own objective.


However they are a very very strong list.. I'm planning on taking them to the next 2500 point tournament I think.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-08-2008, 19:56
well, i find ork codex fun and powerful. as it should be.

no tactics ?

without tactics it is very very hard to win when playing good player.

hmm, maybe i'll start hordes to show them that green horde can be tactical

zoodog
20-08-2008, 20:00
perhaps orks are only overpowered with not fully painted. I've beaten an incredibly well painted all metal ork army (though the warp-head helped some).

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-08-2008, 20:02
The ork lists are very strong lists however a couple things in 5th really lower there power level from my expierence.

1. In combat now because of the no retreat special rule combined with 6+ armor save they just get completely owned. People were afraid of the 30 ork shoota mob that is fearless that could take a charge from something and stick around for at least 2 turns while more boyz came into kill.

Now if you charge that squad with say some assault marines and win by 10 then they could lose another 8 or so orks just from combat rez.

2. With the way scoring units work now orks don't really have a troop choice that is designed to stay on objectives in their own deployment zone. I've found that my trukker mobs and shoota mobs go flying forward and alot of the time I can't get my own objective.


However they are a very very strong list.. I'm planning on taking them to the next 2500 point tournament I think.

1.did some of above poster know what khorne berzerkers do against them ? and how powerfull lash + flamer is against ork units ? sure, if you take nothing but high S low AP weapon you are toasted more often than not. and it's fine - flamers have their role in new rules. close anti-personal firepower [pun intended]

2. Perhaps you should place your objectives more aggresively ?

they are strong and they deserve to be strong, its most common enemy - it is reason why there are serious threat.

sorienor
20-08-2008, 20:25
Orks are not unbeatable, but as you can see in my sig I've had really good success under the new Codex. As a side note, I have yet to play against Tau or Necrons at all.

I don't have a whole lot of advice on how to beat them though. The only things that really seem to hurt me are incredible high-fire rate weapons (like 18 scatterlasers) or really good CC units like Striking Scorpions and Berserkers. Even then I usually only lose 1 unit before the counter-charge takes care of them.

Generally speaking, I feel I can win every game provided I don't make mistakes.

sorienor
20-08-2008, 20:30
did some of above poster know what khorne berzerkers do against them ?

I had a unit of Berzerkers come out of a LR and assault a unit of 20 shoota boys. I lost 12 to them, killed 2 in return then got wiped out on the retreat. Next turn I shot and counter-charged with 11 shootas and 8 sluggas (1 PK), wiping out all of them over 2 combat phases. I also killed the LR with a deffrolla.

I won't underestimate Berzerkers again, I can tell you that.

Gensuke626
20-08-2008, 21:43
Oh My God. I can not believe someone could have written this topic without intent to Troll. but since northoceanbeach doesn't seem to be trolling and is being rather civil, I can only place my face into the palms of my hands, take a deep breath and trudge onward.


I am surprised I haven't heard it talked about on here but am hasn't it become apparent that this is maybe the most broken codex they've ever written? No it hasn't. We're still reeling from the 3.5th ed Chaos codex where Iron warriors could take a Basilisk and 3 other heavy support choices.
We still remember Seer Councils of Doom and Ranger Distruption tables.
We still remember when Fish of Fury and Jump-Shoot-Jump made Tau nearly untouchable.
For Christ's sake, Nidzilla + Scuttlestealers is the current list that folks are worrying about, and Lash is still giving folks problems.



They are just the one army that you cannot play against and have a fun game. The only way to beat them, and then it's only to have a chance to beat tham is to make the greasiest army possible, completely tailored to taking out orks.
Not true. If you make a Balanced list that is equally good at downing hordes and Meqs, you should be fine. Or if you choose to down Meq with weight of fire. You're just upset that they're mostly unaffected by Las/plas.

On top of that, you'll find that many people would disagree that they're not fun to play because of all the wacky special rules...and that necrons are less fun to play (as or against).


I just think it's sad that people can't play their armies against them and have a fun or close game. Even normal ork lists are just disgusting. You should talk to the Guard player I fought on Monday. He won his game by holding his objective and wiping out all the Ork scoring units on the table. He even used Ogryn and did not take any tanks other than the Ogryn's Chimera.
It's sad that maybe some guy has whatever army and he's painted it all nice, and then some ork player come with his broken unpainted junk and smokes him with no stategy. Because those are two things I never see an Ork player have, a painted army or any strategy.Ok, so your gaming group is lame...Don't take it out on us Ork players mate. Just because the strategy is simple doesn't mean it isn't there.

A Solid core of Boyz in the center with Trukks and Trax to the flanks advancing in a modified pincer attack is as viable a strategy as Las/plas gunline. (Actaully, it's a real strategy, as opposed to simply setting up and rolling dice)
And I can't blame them for the lack of strategy because you don't need it, it's the worst example of just throw your crap on the table and charge I've ever seen.You're Zogging kidding me, right? I mean seriously...The WORST example of throw crap on the table and charge? What about Khorne Berzerker Armies? Gaunt Swarm Nids with a Flyrant? Blood Angels all Assault Marine army?


How they came up with the basic 6 point troops is beyond me.
furious charge We got FC in exchange for choppaz and the WAAAGH! check. On an individual level, we're better against GEQ and worse against MEQ. To balance that out, they gave us the ability to take enough boyz to overwhelm the marines. Ever try throwing a current build ork mob of 20 against 10 marines. The marines win combat almost half the time because of I4 and the powered armor.


great shooting HAHAHAHA! That's a good one...Great Shooting...Right. But seriously, Ork shooting isn't great by any means. Ork shooting can be spectacular, but it is unreliable at best. You're as likely to go through an entire turn and miss every shot you throw as you are to completely cream an enemy with weight of fire.

great close combat Ahh yes, the one accurate thing I've read so far. But it's a bit false simply because if an Ork list really wants to strive towards shooty, they have to make pretty drastic sacrifices from choppy. Shootas instead of Sluggas, Lootaz instead of Nobs or Meganobz, Shock Attack Gun instead of the Kustom Force field. The list goes on.

constant 4+ cover saves Just like every other army in the game? This can hardly be called an ork specific advantage when Guard, Nids, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Marines, Chaos Marines, Sisters of Battle, and even Necrons can benefit from the over abundance of cover saves.

fast either with fleet, running or transport, a transport they can assault out of Dark Eldar also have a transport they can assault out of. Infact, their transport is faster and has a better gun.

And fast? Footslogging Orks are no faster than any other army. Trukk Orks are a bit faster than most armies, but Eldar can still out run them due to the changes to vehicle speed. And unlike many assaulty armies, Orks can only get fleet for one turn per game unless the Wyrdboy rolls a 6 when he rolls his random psychic power for the turn.

unbreakable leadership. Have you noticed that fearless is really only an advantage against shooting these days? Being a Fearless assaulty army is actually a pretty big liability. Ask any Nid player.

the only unit that has a hidden powerfist that no matter how many wounds you get, you still cannot kill so untrue. Sure, the number of orks in the mob means that you need to kill much much more to get to that fist, but you can still get it. Try using, I dunno...Frag Missiles? Game I played on monday, the guard player had 3 missile launchers on a hill, fired frags and managed to land all 3 hits. 21 hits into the mob. You seem like a marine player. Imagine that with 4 Plasma cannons (Would've been 28) and come talk to me.

3-4 attacks 2 attacks base. Sluggas have pistol & CCW. They can put out a tonne of attacks, yes, but they need to be equipped for it. Shoota Boyz usually only have 2 S3 attacks...

6 points for the basic boy? Yes. But look at what you're getting. Something that shoots worse than a Nid, has the reaction time of a Tau, and has armor worse than a guardsman. They need to be cheap or the army isn't viable.


Then of course you add things like:
Characters that give these units a 4+ fnp for a nominal cost, or allow them to come off your table edge and move and assault you, with absolutely nothing to prevent it. In regards to Doks - They can only be bought in mobs of Nobs and Flashgits. Grotsnik is a special case, and he actually is pretty expensive.

In regards to Snikrot. Lesson learned, deploy to prevent Snikrot getting a charge on the turn he appears. I don't see how this is any more gamebreaking than Space Wolf Scouts, or Outflanking Stealers.


Jump pack troops that are cheap, again have hidden powerfists and can maybe assault you turn one. If the Stormboyz assault you on turn 1, you're doing something wrong. Or the dice hate you and he siezed the initiative.

Also, the max size of a stormboyz mob is 20. It's fairly easy to get to that PK Nob.


There really is just no way to stop this army, I'm totally frustrated with it.
This is the point where I tell you that you're just not fighting them correctly.

If the orks are rampaging around as easily as you claim, then that's because you're letting them. There are a few key things to remember about Orks...
1. They're a horde. Which means that there's probably not enough space for them to deploy when the game begins. Use that to your advantage with blast weapons. Also, since they're a horde, the individual ork is fairly fragile. Weight of fire is what's going to win games, not neccessairly quality of fire. Use ML/Flamer against them instead of Las/plas.
2. To beat the ork, you gotta fight like an ork. That means that when the oppertunity presents itself, you have to take the charge. Even if that means that a unit can't shoot that turn, you want to be the one charging the orks. The orks will lose Initiative, Strength, and an attack, all very valuable to an ork charge.
3. AV14 weakness. Orks suck at killing AV14. If you play guard, aggressively use Leman Russes. Tank shocks and Battle cannon/Demolisher cannon rounds should be the order of the day. If you're marines, a single LRC is enough to ruin an Ork's day.


Lack of strength 9 shooting only mattered in fourth. NOw when with your great speed you can assault vehicles, and you always hit the back which almost always is armour 10. Basic troops can hurt it, powerfists can demolish it. I would rather do that these days than try to hit the front with spendy lascannons. That's so not true. Lack of S9 shooting matters even more in 5th than it did in 4th. In 4th, tank busta boyz could glance a Land raider to death. In 5th, all of the orkz anti-heavy tank capability is either Melee based (Power Klaws and tank busta bommz) or random (Shock Attack Gun, Zapp Gunz, Zapp Wyrdboy power).

As for the great speed of orkz...If you know that Orks are fast, then set fast units high on your target priority list. Kill the Trukks, Bikerz, and Stormboyz first. If you're fielding Lascannons against an Ork army, you're not building it correctly. Missile Launchers.



bs 2 is lousy shooting. But that's not the only factor that decides good shooting or bad.

What makes for good shooting is that they are 6 points, so for the cost of equivalent number of guard or of 25 orks to 10 chaos or space marines, you get a gun that get 2 shots at up to 24" with the move since it is assault, also, it is assault so you can shoot and then charge. it is the same strength as a bolte, and while you may hit quite less often, you get many more shots because you get so many more guns for the points.

I would say for 180 points 60 strength 4 shots that have the potential to then have a deadly following charge is fantastic shooting. Even if only 1/3 hit.
And it has 2 shots at greater range than any other troop guns besides grey knights.
10 Angel marines with bolters = 180 points, right?
30 Shoota Boyz = 180 points.

Marines single shot = 66% hits. ~3 casualties vs orks
Marines Double tap = 66% hits. ~6 casualties vs orks

Orks 2 shot = 33% hits. 10 wounds vs Marines. ~3 Casulaties after armor saves.

Seems to be working as intended to me.

As for the assaulting issue? If you're letting the Orks charge, that's your own fault. When the ork tide is upon you, what you need to do is to unholster your pistols if you got them, fix bayonettes otherwise, and charge the orks to deny them the charge bonus.

Badger[Fr]
20-08-2008, 22:43
for the basic boy? Yes. But look at what you're getting. Something that shoots worse than a Nid, has the reaction time of a Tau, and has armor worse than a guardsman. They need to be cheap or the army isn't viable.
QTF. Ork Boyz may be one of the very best troop choices available in the whole game, but they will actually suffer severe casualties before reaching HtH: their armour save is pathetic, and they couldn't rely on a tough vehicle to protect them from incoming fire, unless the Ork player field an expensive Battlewagon. Moreover, they must get the charge and annihilate their opponent in a single assault phase, or they risk being wiped out because of the new "No retreat" rule. Ork Boyz need to be cheap, else the whole army isn't viable anymore.

Grogugluk
20-08-2008, 23:01
Ya the Basic orks get completely owned by other armies elite close combat troops because of the way fearless works now.

Also the way that blast weapons and template weapons work they are a really big advantage versus orks. If you fire 4 frag rockets now you can sometimes hit 15+ boyz easily shooting at a big mob.

Flamers are obscene. I had something like 19 hits on my squad from 2 flamers.

Its just alot of armies don't use flamers and you don't see as many template weapons but as this edition goes on you are going to see more of those things.


Then again.. I haven't lost with the new orks since I've been playing them so I'm one to talk.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-08-2008, 23:04
I'm with Gensuke626 on this. Orks are good fun to play against and far from unbeatable if you know what you're doing, and in all frankness, I think frustration is blinding the OP to properly analyzing the straits he's in.

These SW Scout Orks that come from behind can be a huge pain in the proverbial, that much is true. Whether it is worse for me than my two Hellhounds are for him is another question entirely...

AfroCelt
20-08-2008, 23:07
Oh My God. I can not believe someone could have written this topic without intent to Troll. but since northoceanbeach doesn't seem to be trolling and is being rather civil, I can only place my face into the palms of my hands, take a deep breath and trudge onward.

...

I vote Gensuke 4 Warboss. That post had some real gems for all you non-ork players out there.

MrGiggles
21-08-2008, 00:36
Orks are lots of fun, hopefully for everyone.

I will admit that their shooting can be scary, I generally field a unit of Shoota Boyz and after they carried my last two games virtually on their own, I'm considering adding another mob. That being said, I mainly took the mob because I had some Shoota Boyz around already and I wanted to see if I could actually hit something.

Orks should definitely be a fun army to play against too though. They're good and random and goofy. If they're not fun for the whole family, that's just unfortunate.

Like folks have been saying though, dealing with Orks isn't brutal hard if you're tooled up right. Blast weapons, template weapons, high rate or fire weapons, those are your key tools in dealing with Orks (and most hordes).

Given the Ork Furious Charge ability, you definitely want to take that away from them if at all possible. Trust me when I tell you that Ork Mobz become far less effective after round one of combat or when they're denied the charge. I know from experience that if I can't overwhelm something with my Orks in the first round of melee combat, my Boyz are getting squashed eventually. How long they last really depends on how good their opponents are at hand to hand, but the chances of the mob coming out of combat drops off quite a bit after round one.

Anyway, you've got some good advice here about dealing with hordes in general and Orks in particular. Try it out and give it a go.

Adra
21-08-2008, 00:54
Hay its not all smiles for orks...dont forget....

It's not easy being green
It seems you blend in with so many other ordinary things
And people tend to pass you over 'cause you're
Not standing out like flashy sparkles in the water
Or stars in the sky

Danny Internet
21-08-2008, 01:52
HAHAHAHA! That's a good one...Great Shooting...Right. But seriously, Ork shooting isn't great by any means. Ork shooting can be spectacular, but it is unreliable at best. You're as likely to go through an entire turn and miss every shot you throw as you are to completely cream an enemy with weight of fire.

The basic Ork Shoota Boy shoots about as well as a marine at > 12" due to having an assault 2 18" gun, the main difference being that Marines are better at shooting when in rapid fire range, however cannot assault after doing so, unlike Orks. This is changing with the new SM book where they get bolt pistols to allow for shooting and then charging, but at the moment the basic Ork Shoota Boy is very shooty for the measely 6 points he costs since his range and volume of fire more than make up for the BS 2, relative to other armies' Troops.

And then there are Lootas, which are almost as ridiculously shooty as they are cost-effective, even in 5th edition.

That being said, Ork shooting isn't going to blow you off the table, but it IS effective and it comes at almost no cost. Furthermore, it is vital for a combined arms approach, which is the most effective way to build and play an Ork list.


Have you noticed that fearless is really only an advantage against shooting these days? Being a Fearless assaulty army is actually a pretty big liability. Ask any Nid player.

Fearlessness is a huge advantage in close combat if you have a low initiative, which Orks do (relative to other assault units). Yes, the cost comes in the form of the No Retreat! wounds, but to say that it is an overall liability is a misrepresentation bordering on absurdity.


In regards to Snikrot. Lesson learned, deploy to prevent Snikrot getting a charge on the turn he appears. I don't see how this is any more gamebreaking than Space Wolf Scouts, or Outflanking Stealers.

So your answer is to deploy the army more than 12" forward (more than 18" if you factor in a WAAAGH!) when fighting an assault-based army? And while I don't think Snikrot is gamebreaking by any means, claiming that you don't see the difference between a unit that comes on from the opponent's table edge and a unit that comes on a random short board edges means either means you're feigning ignorance or just being argumentative.


As for the assaulting issue? If you're letting the Orks charge, that's your own fault. When the ork tide is upon you, what you need to do is to unholster your pistols if you got them, fix bayonettes otherwise, and charge the orks to deny them the charge bonus.

Easier said than done when the Ork army has on-demand Fleet.

CthulhuDalek
21-08-2008, 02:17
Have you noticed that fearless is really only an advantage against shooting these days? Being a Fearless assaulty army is actually a pretty big liability. Ask any Nid player.


I am still confused on why this would affect nids...

Nids are *not* fearless, they have synapse which does not make them count as fearless. They pass their tests the same way a fearless model would--but because they don't actually have the fearless rule I am pretty sure they take no negative modifiers during combat.

northoceanbeach
21-08-2008, 02:30
I think you are much too fooled by gensuke's post. Just because it looks long and well written doesn't mean his points are valid and like the poster above me has begun to point out, they really are not.

He's taking things like my saying orks are fast and his response is "oh, yeah, well eldar is faster"

or when I said they can assault out of their transports he replied with Dark Eldar can too. He's taking the one army in the game for each point and using it as an example of how I am wrong, without taking in the fact of all Dark Eldar's faults. So while yes, Eldar may be the one army that is faster. It doesn't mean that orks aren't fast.

And their shooting is really no more unreliable than any other army. They both use the same dice and laws of probability, and like I said above, what thewy lack in a too hit roll, they more than make up for in how many too hit rolls they get to take.

Yes I think they have a weak save and 6+ makes sense. But I have been told by above posters of course you have to use target priority, and you do, but if you do this, 9 times out of ten that unit is behind 50% terrain or easily shielded by the unit in front, so effectivewly, while on paper orks have a 6+ save, I would say more often than not in the game they are getting a 4+ cover.

Venerable_Bede
21-08-2008, 02:30
Do you hear my violin playing?

Why, oh why, is Warseer filled with such ridiculous whining rants?




I am surprised I haven't heard it talked about on here but am hasn't it become apparent that this is maybe the most broken codex they've ever written?

They are just the one army that you cannot play against and have a fun game. The only way to beat them, and then it's only to have a chance to beat tham is to make the greasiest army possible, completely tailored to taking out orks.

I just think it's sad that people can't play their armies against them and have a fun or close game. Even normal ork lists are just disgusting. It's sad that maybe some guy has whatever army and he's painted it all nice, and then some ork player come with his broken unpainted junk and smokes him with no stategy. Because those are two things I never see an Ork player have, a painted army or any strategy. And I can't blame them for the lack of strategy because you don't need it, it's the worst example of just throw your crap on the table and charge I've ever seen.

How they came up with the basic 6 point troops is beyond me.
furious charge
great shooting
great close combat
constant 4+ cover saves
fast either with fleet, running or transport, a transport they can assault out of
unbreakable leadership.
the only unit that has a hidden powerfist that no matter how many wounds you get, you still cannot kill
3-4 attacks
6 points

Then of course you add things like:
Characters that give these units a 4+ fnp for a nominal cost, or allow them to come off your table edge and move and assault you, with absolutely nothing to prevent it.

Jump pack troops that are cheap, again have hidden powerfists and can maybe assault you turn one.

There really is just no way to stop this army, I'm totally frustrated with it.

northoceanbeach
21-08-2008, 02:39
What? the little whining rant you just posted? I know, why do people whine about others' posts that they haven't contributed to? You'd think they'd have better things to do.

Gensuke626
21-08-2008, 02:40
The basic Ork Shoota Boy shoots about as well as a marine at > 12" due to having an assault 2 18" gun, the main difference being that Marines are better at shooting when in rapid fire range, however cannot assault after doing so, unlike Orks. This is changing with the new SM book where they get bolt pistols to allow for shooting and then charging, but at the moment the basic Ork Shoota Boy is very shooty for the measely 6 points he costs since his range and volume of fire more than make up for the BS 2, relative to other armies' Troops.Agreed, en masse the ork shoota boy puts out relative amounts of shooting on a point for point basis compared to Space Marines. This does not mean that Orks have Great shooting, it means that orks have decent shooting.

Being able to assault after shooting is HUGE, but that doesn't mean that my ability to shoot is somehow bolstered by the fact that I can charge. It speaks volumes for my mobility, but I still won't rely on Ork shooting in the same way I can rely on Ork assault.


And then there are Lootas, which are almost as ridiculously shooty as they are cost-effective, even in 5th edition.

That being said, Ork shooting isn't going to blow you off the table, but it IS effective and it comes at almost no cost. Furthermore, it is vital for a combined arms approach, which is the most effective way to build and play an Ork list. Again, we're in agreement. Lootaz are wonderfully shooty, but also rediculously unpredictable. They're as likely to put out 15 shots per mob as they are 45 shots. And they're still BS 2.

They eptitimize what I love about Orkz, the mass of attacks they throw makes their potential for damage insanely high, but average and below average stats in those same areas means that you end up with above average and average rolls, with the occasional "Where'd my Carinfex Go?" moments when the Lootas are done.

Ork shooting is effective, but I'd never call it great, unless you focus on shooting for your list, but then you're ignoreing the ork's natural strength in Assault.




Fearlessness is a huge advantage in close combat if you have a low initiative, which Orks do (relative to other assault units). Yes, the cost comes in the form of the No Retreat! wounds, but to say that it is an overall liability is a misrepresentation bordering on absurdity.
I was going to reply with some anecdotal evidence on why Fearlessness is a liability more than it's a help, but then I read this over 2 or 3 times and I realized what you were saying. In general, yeah Fearless is an amazing helper in Close Combat. It's saved more greenskins than it's hurt because of how Sweeps are handled.

But in Northocean's case, I think he's a Marine player (He came down to my FLGS a few times. Nice guy, and I recall he had marines) so in regards to him, I'd much rather have ATSKNF than Fearless, but I have to admit that Fearless is indeed more of a help than a hinderance for Orks.

Now in the case of most Demons...I think it Hurts more than it helps...But it also helps represent "Demonic Instability"



So your answer is to deploy the army more than 12" forward (more than 18" if you factor in a WAAAGH!) when fighting an assault-based army? And while I don't think Snikrot is gamebreaking by any means, claiming that you don't see the difference between a unit that comes on from the opponent's table edge and a unit that comes on a random short board edges means either means you're feigning ignorance or just being argumentative.
I compared Snikrot to Space Wolf Scouts and Scutlling stealers specifically because I consider the two as big a threat as a Snikrot led Kommando squad.

Scuttling stealers do come off a random shortedge, but they also have fleet, so they can easily charge a unit within 13" of a short edge, and can get as far as 18" in from the edge. On top of that, these are Genestealers. They're not quite as deadly in 5th as they were in 4th, but they're still a pretty big threat.

Space Wolf Scouts have the Behind Enemy Lines ability which means that each squad of those guys can pull a Snikrot anyway. And they've got Marine stats and Carapace armor.

In both cases, you can also have multiples of the same squad, so not only are they more likely to come out when and where you need them, but you can also co-ordinate 2 attacks against the same or complimentary targets at the same time.

You were right though, telling him to deploy 18" from board egde is absurd when fighting orks. Better to keep a throw away squad of something cheap to tie Snikrot up or to counter charge when he appears. Although it is viable to keep models out of Snikrot's assault range if you use alot of city ruins as your terrain.



Easier said than done when the Ork army has on-demand Fleet.
They get one on demand fleet. It is a poor ork commander who wastes it...or a very good one, depending on how late in the game it is. Depending on how you deploy and how you pick your targets, it is possible to steal the charge from the orks.

But you're right, I am making it sound a lot easier than it really is. My advice would be to keep an assault squad ready to steal the charge, and force the orks to advance under high firepower. Snikrot throws a wrench into the works...but that is what he does best.


I am still confused on why this would affect nids...

Nids are *not* fearless, they have synapse which does not make them count as fearless. They pass their tests the same way a fearless model would--but because they don't actually have the fearless rule I am pretty sure they take no negative modifiers during combat.

No Retreat! affects more than just Fearless units. Any unit that automatically passes it's Ld check when making a break check in assault can take wounds.



He's taking things like my saying orks are fast and his response is "oh, yeah, well eldar is faster"

or when I said they can assault out of their transports he replied with Dark Eldar can too. He's taking the one army in the game for each point and using it as an example of how I am wrong, without taking in the fact of all Dark Eldar's faults. So while yes, Eldar may be the one army that is faster. It doesn't mean that orks aren't fast. My point with the Eldar comparisons wasn't to disprove that Orks are fast. I even say that Orks are fast, but that's not exactly a point that you can call them Overpowered on. There are armies that are much faster and much more reliable in their speed than Orks.


And their shooting is really no more unreliable than any other army. They both use the same dice and laws of probability, and like I said above, what thewy lack in a too hit roll, they more than make up for in how many too hit rolls they get to take. But if they're no more unreliable than other armies due to low accuracy compensated by huge batches, it doesn't mean that their shooting is "great" either.

Their shooting is unreliable because you can get a tremendous amount of misses, or you can cause massive damage and you never know what you're going to get. As a whole, I'd say that Ork shooting is average with higher potentials in both directions.



Yes I think they have a weak save and 6+ makes sense. But I have been told by above posters of course you have to use target priority, and you do, but if you do this, 9 times out of ten that unit is behind 50% terrain or easily shielded by the unit in front, so effectivewly, while on paper orks have a 6+ save, I would say more often than not in the game they are getting a 4+ cover. This is the mark of a Smart opponent, putting things in cover to grant them a save. There aren't a lot of ways around cover saves (yet), so generally you have to do one of 2 things:
1. Try to target units that are not in cover, which is not always the smartest idea.
2. Overcome cover through weight of fire, which is what GW studios seems to want to encourage.

Remember though...If your opponet is getting cover saves then it's likely that he's in difficult terrain. That's an advantage on your part since the Orks need to hit as a single massive wave to do the most damage. Anything that slows down a flank and buys you time is a god send.

If they're behind a screening unit there isn't alot that you can do...You could kill the screeners and hope that it leaves you with enough time that you can still kill the wave, or you can ignore the screeners and try to just take out the more important targets. Again, weight of fire is the tool you want to use in those situations.

Orks with 6+ armor is actually very very important for 1 reason. They can't get cover saves in Assault. So the time they're most vulnerable is when they're also at their deadliest. That's why stealing the charge from orks is so important, it robs them of their best feature.

Meriwether
21-08-2008, 03:29
In 1850 points with a take-all-comers Eldar list, I destroyed both a Speed Freaks and an all-horde list, in both cases without losing a _single squad_.

I play six armies, one of them -- my first and dearest -- being orks. They are competitive with the new codex and edition, but they are not overpowered.

Any ork player who thinks that 'plunk crap down and charge!' is a viable strategy will get totally owned by any halfway decent player.

Meri

Gensuke626
21-08-2008, 03:33
Hear, Hear Meriwether!

Meriwether
21-08-2008, 03:50
LOL. I'm not sure if the pun was intentional, but it was funny.

Meri

olmsted
21-08-2008, 03:58
i want what ever the OP is drinking. i have always loved playing against orks and their players. they are some of the best guys ever and great opponents.

Luckywallace
21-08-2008, 06:12
Just my responces to this Topic Creator.

First of all his comment that "Because those are two things I never see an Ork player have, a painted army or any strategy."

- I have both a fully painted ork army and always have since first taking them to the field (Bad Moons if you want to know). Also, many of he armies that they have played (and beaten the stuffing out of) were unpainted or semi-painted, so the situation you described could easily be reversed. I also do play with a stratergy and the new "no consolidate into close combat" rule means Orks have to be VERY careful these days with who they attack and when.

In general I feel the "problem" people have with Orks seeming overpowered is because the meta-game is *SO* heavily geared to fighting against MEQ. All those power swords and plasma guns will be of little use and over-costed against Orks. That is not the Orks' fault! If you know that you are fighting against Orks then you can max out on template weapons, flamers etc. and really give Da Ladz a hard time.

I think the 'greenskin rise' since the new codex will be good for the game in general, and hopefully move armies to being more balanced and less geared up to fight MEQ armies.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-08-2008, 07:56
We all know that "overpowered" and "unpainted" doesn't go together well - unpainted models roll worse, right?


The basic Ork Shoota Boy shoots about as well as a marine at > 12" due to having an assault 2 18" gun, the main difference being that Marines are better at shooting when in rapid fire range,


Don't forget the Marine is better at 18"+! :)


at the moment the basic Ork Shoota Boy is very shooty for the measely 6 points he costs since his range and volume of fire more than make up for the BS 2, relative to other armies' Troops.


Indeed. That's WAD to me. A horde of boyz, all aiming their crude guns in the general direction of the enemy and scoring lots of hits due to the sheer concentration of lead in the air.

On the other hand, shootas means one less attack. Not that I care, I play Guard. 40 or 60 or 80 attacks - it makes no difference.



He's taking things like my saying orks are fast and his response is "oh, yeah, well eldar is faster"


I agree with you, Orks are fast. Nevertheless, that doesn't make them unfun or overpowered. Light transports are pretty fragile, and will fall to a hail of multilaser and autocannon or even heavy bolter shells (flashes). Getting Waagh! from the psyker is unreliable, and it isn't that difficult to deal with hordes at least on one flank.



He's taking the one army in the game for each point and using it as an example of how I am wrong, without taking in the fact of all Dark Eldar's faults. So while yes, Eldar may be the one army that is faster. It doesn't mean that orks aren't fast.


You've got that backwards. You're saying that this speed is what makes them overpowered. If speed would make them overpowered, and others are fast as well, then consequently you must criticise them all and not pick out a random force.

I don't really see were your complaints are coming from. I've handsomely beaten the new codex-Orks with my Guard. I've seen them getting tabled by Eldar twice, and everytime everyone had was generally enjoying himself. It's not all doom and gloom.



Space Wolf Scouts have the Behind Enemy Lines ability which means that each squad of those guys can pull a Snikrot anyway. And they've got Marine stats and Carapace armor.

In both cases, you can also have multiples of the same squad..


I believe you can have multiple SW scout squads but only one OBEL unit.

Koryphaus
21-08-2008, 08:08
Last time I played Orks, I got owned so badly it was funny. 1750pt 4th Ed (January this year), but I had such an awesome time! I love playing orks, even when I get hammered.

Bunnahabhain
21-08-2008, 10:00
Orks are currently powerful, not overpowered. Unless the ork player is significantly better than you, or you've taken a heavily anti-MEQ biased list, than you should have a close game.

I could easily rant about just how cheap and effective those boys are, compared to my poor, poor gurdsmen, and my almost total lack of ability to deny them the charge, but that's a function of the Guard codex, not the Ork one.

I'll just get on with the game, take more blasts and templates, and hope for the needed price corrections in the Guard codex, so we can show the green horde what massed, disciplined fire-power look like.

Metaphorazine
21-08-2008, 11:03
Any marine player who tunes his list solely for killing MEQ then :cries: about orks does not get my sympathy.

The only thing that would change my mind would be if orks demonstratably dominated everything for the next 10 years to make up for the 10 years that they were the laughing stock of 40k.

Gensuke626
21-08-2008, 11:29
I believe you can have multiple SW scout squads but only one OBEL unit.

Ahh, you are correct. I hadn't looked at wolves for a while so it had slipped my mind.

But that basically means that they can operate like Kommandoz and snikrot for roughly the same points, maybe for less depending on how you build them. And like normal kommandoz they can still outflank.

Latro_
21-08-2008, 12:55
northoceanbeach this is the second time i'v seen you moaning somewhat about how powerful orks are.

A couple of times people have asked you to post what army you'v been using which you havent. If you did perhaps we'd get a better idea about where its all going wrong because orks are not the all powerful unbeatble army you make them out to be. If it is the case you load out on las/plas etc then you have yourself to blame.

If I played with my orks and my opponent had a whirlwind and a couple of units with flamers i'd start bricking it! no joke.

ChaosTicket
21-08-2008, 14:02
Orks, don't have great shooting. Orks have str 4 small arms, bs 2, and AP6.

Orks take a 2-1 to equal shooting of Space Marines and then their are differences in teh quality of weapons, and the fact that Space Marines are 3x as tough as orks.

Orks simply are a offensive melee army. Whether you use swarms or speedy vehicles is your choice.

Orks have some simple weaknesses, as in they can be shot to death by every ordnannce weapon in the game, whether from Swooping Hawk Grenade packs, Leman Russ MBT battlecannons, Whirlwinds' launchers, or anything else.

You think they're broken? I think they are one sided like Tyranids and Tau. You won't see any orks with long range guns, anti tank weapnons besides Tankbustas, "Hidden" powerfists, and 2 rokkit launchas on nearly everything.

ashc
21-08-2008, 14:23
Orks certainly have a far more powerful codex now, but they are by no means unbeatable.

I can understand your frustration at a number of your local Ork players if they are so lazy with putting their armies together and painting them; but don't go tarring every Ork player in the known universe with the same brush, most of them are incredibly dedicated to their army :).

Ash

Danny Internet
21-08-2008, 14:35
Agreed, en masse the ork shoota boy puts out relative amounts of shooting on a point for point basis compared to Space Marines. This does not mean that Orks have Great shooting, it means that orks have decent shooting.

The quality of anything in this game is relative to its cost. When Ork Boyz at 6 points a pop pump out the same firepower while advancing towards close combat, where they are even more deadly, as marines can only do while stationary then that IS great shooting. They skirt the opportunity cost of rapid fire weapons, which is valuable in itself. They are the most cost-effective firepower in the entire game. The fact that virtually every competitive Ork player takes Shoota Boyz over Slugga Boyz should be an indication of how much of a bargain they are. The value of such cheap firepower becomes even more apparent when contrasted with the 5 point imperial guardsman.

I think your other points are sound, just initially exaggerated. I personally don't have any real problems with Orks, but I do think they have the strongest codex at the moment in the tournament scene along with Tyranids. (I don't think the margin is that wide, so there's nothing wrong with this--someone has to be on top after all.) As others have said, this might be a result of people being stuck in their ways and bringing anti-MEQ lists to tournaments thereby giving horde armies an edge. However, I suspect it has more to do with the massive flexibility and customization allowed by the Ork book, similar to the 4th edition Chaos codex.

ChaosTicket
21-08-2008, 14:54
Oh that's sure. Lascannons and lances are great against vehicles, but next to worthless against swarms, while firepower units like Havocs with heavy bolters, Basilisks, and other units end up good.

It's difficult to balance anti MEQ, anti Tank, and Anti Swarm.

AlexCage
21-08-2008, 15:56
The value of such cheap firepower becomes even more apparent when contrasted with the 5 point imperial guardsman.

.

6 Point :cries:


I'm the first one to whine and cry that "A BOY SHOULD NOT BE AS CHEAP AS A GUARDSMAN! EVER!", and pound for pound, the Boy is insanely better. I'm also the first to moan and grumble at the hidden powerklaw that just WALLOPED my Sentinel Squad (as it does every damn game).

And still, I RELISH the opportunity to play against a non-MEQ. It's a refreshing change of pace that lets me vary things up (it's liberating to NOT have to take the 4 Plas Command Squad just to have a chance). And Orks I actually stand a chance against! Yes yes, WALK into my Artillery, yes this will go well for you...

But regardless of how powerful they are, I've never had a BAD game against Orks. I've lost plenty, but it's always alot of fun. Watching the Big Mek go careening into a squad of Guardsmen from across the table, the mental imagery of a squad of 15 Lootas rolling a 5 or 6 (The trees are spitting fire! YOU HAVE ANGERED THE FOREST GOD!), dropping a big ol' pie plate on a big squad of Shootas, or watching the Trukk lose control and scream across the front to explode in glorious, Orky fashion. It's all great fun, for everyone involved.

Hey, maybe you shouldn't be so overly concerned with winning? Maybe if you just let go and enjoyed a good guffaw with your opponent when the Orks did something particularly Orky? Maybe then you'd have more fun?

Or maybe you can continue on the WAAC mindset, maybe that's fun for you.


Also: I find it kind of funny that I was going to start a thread just to mention how much I LOVE Orks when I saw this. And I don't even play the filthy green blighters!

Danny Internet
21-08-2008, 16:35
I also find that I've never had a bad game playing Orks. Unfortunately they are extremely rare around here nowadays, even with the new codex. I only know of one player in my current group who has an Ork army and he doesn't come around very much.

Latro_
21-08-2008, 16:46
The quality of anything in this game is relative to its cost. When Ork Boyz at 6 points a pop pump out the same firepower while advancing towards close combat, where they are even more deadly, as marines can only do while stationary then that IS great shooting. They skirt the opportunity cost of rapid fire weapons, which is valuable in itself. They are the most cost-effective firepower in the entire game. The fact that virtually every competitive Ork player takes Shoota Boyz over Slugga Boyz should be an indication of how much of a bargain they are. The value of such cheap firepower becomes even more apparent when contrasted with the 5 point imperial guardsman.


I fail to see how this whole advancing and firing thing is so amazing. Conceptually it sounds great. If you actually use 20+ shoota boys it is a different story. They have an 18" range, a large unit goes back what 6-10" so generally when ya in 18" range you will fire maybe 5-10 orks. The next turn you will either still be at front rank 18" away or be able to move to 12" and fire more. Either way you will now be able to fire most of them at 18", by which time if you opponent isnt stupid their numbers will be whittled down somewhat and if you are in assult range after that (just) then firing them at full whack is idiotic as your opponent (again unless hes stupid) will take off models which are 'just in' assault range.

It is a rare occassion you can have 20+ shoota boyz actually firing off 40shots into an enemy. The mechanics of an actual game with models on the board and unit coherency is such a big factor.

Orks work much better if you engage with fast stuff that dents the enemy but wont wipe them out, which gives the rest of the footsloggers time to march up the board and jump in once the fast stuff is dead/diein.

I run two units of shoota boyz at 20 stong, and i wish now i'd made them sluggas for the extra attack.

the_crazy_russian
21-08-2008, 16:48
i have fought orks with my tau, my marines, and my eldar. each time, the orks died horribly. it was only close once, when almost all my firewarriors refused to hit the broad side of a barn until turn 4. i also play orks myself, and can tell you that i take an appaling amount of casualties on my way to combat.

orks are good in a scrap, but not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination. there are still units that can be much faster than mobs, and due to the new fearless rules, hand to hand crazies can wade through a mob with flying colors. have you ever seen what scorpions do to orks in combat (after dismounting from their wave serpent)? it's not pretty, i can tell you that. assault marines will have much the same effect, also faster than your average boyz. just take care to eliminate their own fast assaulters.

everyone whines about grotsnik and his giving of fnp to a random unit. have you ever read his special rules in more detail? everyone at our local club sturggled with a foot assault army containing grotsnik, because he made it damn near impossible to kill the 30 strong 'ard boy mob AND everything else. then i made him play 'chase the stealthsuits' all game, and shot everything else to ribbons. every unit has a weakness that YOU have to learn to exploit.

fearless leadership? not unless you shoot enough of them. focus your fire on one mob at a time, until you drop them to 7 or less, at which point morale will hit them pretty hard. of course, if you kill 3-4 boyz out of each mob, they'll laugh at you. in addition, a whittled-down mob like that can be swept away with an assault from your own basic troops once they get close (needess to say, don't try that with tau).

snikrot is only a game-breaking problem if you mass all your units together so that he can charge more than one and thus stay in combat for another turn. a full mob of kommandos should be able to break most things it charges in one round, leaving him open to be shot.

even without assault elements, a fast army can deal with orks. focus fire on one part of their battle line (preferably a flank), leaving a hole for yourself to escape through once they get close.

firepower? every army has infiltrators that can outflank it. while not as reliable as snikrot, they can show up where you want them most of the time to cut up the lootas/big guns/shokk attack gun mek. as most of the remaining horde will be pressing forward, you can be almost certain that there will be no retribution.

cover? a double edged sword. while it makes them tougher, it also slows them down. it can take a mob of boyz 3 turns or more to clear a piece of terrain. also, 25% terrain is not that overpowering (assuming it's not all set up in the middle of the board), not every mob will have cover to hide in. i only had problems when the board was about 50% terrain.

in short, don't play one-trick-pony lists, know your enemy, and fight them accordingly.

northoceanbeach
21-08-2008, 17:27
[QUOTE=the_crazy_russian;2884347]

cover? a double edged sword. while it makes them tougher, it also slows them down. it can take a mob of boyz 3 turns or more to clear a piece of terrain. also, 25% terrain is not that overpowering (assuming it's not all set up in the middle of the board), not every mob will have cover to hide in. i only had problems when the board was about 50% terrain.
QUOTE]

Don't forget now that the unit in front gives a unit behind cover, so if you want to shoot lootas, at the back of the board, they have a 4+ cover, as does every unit besides the first.

The fact is most players of this game for whatever reason are not very good. So they come on here and post how orks aren't overpowered because they lose with them.

Fine, I play chaos. And chaos has the second best basic troops. My list has berserkers and flamers and plenty troops and I can beat orks. But it's not even.

I had what I thought was a nice painted fun, themed army, salamanders basically:

Captain, combimelta, power sword 5 marines, hammer 2 melta
razorback
2 10 man tacticals in rhinos, 1 with flamers, 1 with meltas hammers

5 man 2 plasma razorback

scouts

dread

some tanks

This list couldn't beat a good ork player. The only reason my chaos can is because it is a generic chaos list, with berserkers and black troops that I made no story for and made to be a good playing army. I don't want to use berserkers, I don't like khorne, but I have to if I want to win.

My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

Danny Internet
21-08-2008, 17:33
I fail to see how this whole advancing and firing thing is so amazing. Conceptually it sounds great.

Orks want to get closer to their enemies. Having assault weapons allow them to advance closer to said enemies without sacrificing range or their assault move. It is great not just conceptually, but practically.

Even if you only fire a few weapons, that's a few more weapons than you would have been able to fire if you had rapid fire guns (assuming you didn't want to sacrifice your assault move) or pistols. You want to advance along a wide frontage in 5th edition as opposed to a deep mob. You no longer have to fear partial contact charges and having your engaged models killed and, more importantly, this allows you to potentially contact multiple units simultaneously to prevent the situation where you massacre on the charge and get annihilated by rapid fire weapons/flamers in the subsequent shooting phase.

Luckywallace
21-08-2008, 17:50
Hmm, another attack on Orks using unpainted, proxy models by northoceanbeach. Where is this coming from?

I have fought plenty of crappy-looking, "grey" Marines and messily undercoated Imperial Guard armies (with my own, fully painted Ork army) and yet never thought to tar all Marine and Guard players with the same brush.

A painted Ork army looks awesome, and many Ork players love painting their green horde so please can people lay off generalising about Ork players fielding un-painted armies.

AfroCelt
21-08-2008, 18:10
Don't forget now that the unit in front gives a unit behind cover, so if you want to shoot lootas, at the back of the board, they have a 4+ cover, as does every unit besides the first.

The fact is most players of this game for whatever reason are not very good. 1 So they come on here and post how orks aren't overpowered because they lose with them.

Fine, I play chaos. And chaos has the second best basic troops. My list has berserkers and flamers and plenty troops and I can beat orks. But it's not even.

I had what I thought was a nice painted fun, themed army, salamanders basically: 2

Captain, combimelta, power sword 5 marines, hammer 2 melta
razorback
2 10 man tacticals in rhinos, 1 with flamers, 1 with meltas hammers

5 man 2 plasma razorback

scouts

dread

some tanks 3

This list couldn't beat a good ork player. The only reason my chaos can is because it is a generic chaos list, with berserkers and black troops that I made no story for and made to be a good playing army. I don't want to use berserkers, I don't like khorne, but I have to if I want to win.

My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table 4 beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

I've placed a few markers in the above quote. Please reference the item number to the selection it refers.

1. This piece of "evidence" is both highly subjective and cannot reasonably be inferred. Have you played most of the Warseer fanbase? If you have, I'd love to know how.

2. So, your fluffy force was a chaos list with an emphasis on making salamanders? Sounds great. I know nothing of Salamanders (or chaos) past the fact that they like flamers, though, and I only see one? You may have better luck using more flamers.

3. Do you notice that multimeltas and meltas are very high strength, low AP, single shot weapons? Do you notice that despite hitting every turn with a melta, you only kill 6 orks? Las/plas/melta weapons are meant to kill MEQ as everyone has stated before. Your list is built to fight MEQ armies...try making something a bit more all-comers. Also, what tanks? I love anything that puts out blast templates as they'll slaughter orks...you don't need anti-tank weapons against an army with no tanks.

4. I'm very sorry that this player had broken proxied crap. Please do not attack someone for the example that one player makes. I could say that since I've seen a chaos marine player whine, all chaos players are whiners. Is this true?

On the topic of the "400 new ork players" - Yes, you'll see many more since they are the other army in the new beginner set, much like the tyranids exploded at the start of 4th. It cannot be helped will most likely die down in 1-3 more codexes, since there's something referred to as "new army syndrome" that many 40k players suffer from.

Hope this helps.

CthulhuDalek
21-08-2008, 18:16
[QUOTE=the_crazy_russian;2884347]

cover? a double edged sword. while it makes them tougher, it also slows them down. it can take a mob of boyz 3 turns or more to clear a piece of terrain. also, 25% terrain is not that overpowering (assuming it's not all set up in the middle of the board), not every mob will have cover to hide in. i only had problems when the board was about 50% terrain.
QUOTE]

Don't forget now that the unit in front gives a unit behind cover, so if you want to shoot lootas, at the back of the board, they have a 4+ cover, as does every unit besides the first.

The fact is most players of this game for whatever reason are not very good. So they come on here and post how orks aren't overpowered because they lose with them.

Fine, I play chaos. And chaos has the second best basic troops. My list has berserkers and flamers and plenty troops and I can beat orks. But it's not even.

I had what I thought was a nice painted fun, themed army, salamanders basically:

Captain, combimelta, power sword 5 marines, hammer 2 melta
razorback
2 10 man tacticals in rhinos, 1 with flamers, 1 with meltas hammers

5 man 2 plasma razorback

scouts

dread

some tanks

This list couldn't beat a good ork player. The only reason my chaos can is because it is a generic chaos list, with berserkers and black troops that I made no story for and made to be a good playing army. I don't want to use berserkers, I don't like khorne, but I have to if I want to win.

My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

If you switch our your meltas for flamers and take plasmaguns on your razorbacks as Heavy Bolters you could turn this list around. Maybe another tactical quad or increase your squad sizes instead of your scouts. For the "some tanks" maybe buy a landraider crusader--the bane of orks--and it even has a multimelta. Or even wait for the new landraider redeemer with big flamers.

What does your dread have?

I have had plenty of games against the new orks and I have seen their brutality as well as their flaws. If they have trukks pop em quickly. I hate lootas and try to get rid of them where possible. Use basic marines to whittle them down, maybe invest in some missile launchers for their ability to take out armor and infantry with equal capability.

I agree that Orks are difficult to play UNLESS you tailor your list to fight them. For example, my two most frequent opponents are Nurgle Marines and Orks -- two opposite ends of the spectrum. In order to kill Orks my weapons have to be completely different than against Marines. But that's what I have to work around. I am basically going to make two variant lists where I can switch out flamers and MLs for Plas, lascanons(Because I have the models!)

I think an Ork is cheap and effective and it grinds my gears that they are the same cost as a spinegaunt... but I think that just means spinegaunts need a little revision!

Irondog
21-08-2008, 18:39
Hear hear, Luckywallace. There are many of us old timers with painstakingly painted Ork armies. Have a look at the pics below for proof.

I think what the OP is running into is the classic 'bandwagon' complex. A new codex comes out with some shiny new rules, the cheeseball WAAC players grab said codex, slap some models together, and go to town. These 'bandwagoners' (or should it be 'battlewagoners' :D) will move on to the next new codex when it comes out. Mark my words, half the people the OP is playing against will drop Orks and move onto Marines in the next few months when they get their codex.

I would also echo the words of many of the other posters in this thread. You need to stop lumping all ork players into one category! The schmucks you are running into are what can be called 'ork codex users', they play orks because of the fancy new rules and because they can win with them. They are a vastly different breed to 'ork players', who play orks because they're orks, regardless of what rules they have. Ork players also paint their boyz. Please make the distinction and adjust your future posts accordingly.

Herman the Heathen
21-08-2008, 19:16
What is it with all this hate against the orks?

So they finally got themselves a good codex? OMG then they're of course broken...

Of course orks are powerful, they are the newest codex, and a good one, and then combine this with an ork player (not the same as everyone playing orks as explained by previous posts) that has played and suffered for longer than anyone else with an out-dated, underpowered and overpriced codex. We learned our tactics back then, fighting as the underdog, and now when we our green fingers on some real good stuff...who's surprised that we can perform good?:evilgrin:::evilgrin:

Saying no ork players don't need tactics is insulting and only shows lack of own tactics (or maybe lack of reacting to the enemies...)

Saying no ork players has fully painted armies is equally insulting, I have personally NEVER used a non painted model for as long as I can remember... which is 'bout 20 years... I have played of a multitude of opponents with unpainted armies, but never considered any special army being over represented in this case.
I take great pain and time in converting and painting my orks so a statement like this is...:wtf::mad:

Moriarty
21-08-2008, 19:19
I am surprised I haven't heard it talked about on here but am hasn't it become apparent that this is maybe the most broken codex they've ever written?

There really is just no way to stop this army, I'm totally frustrated with it.

I agree with you totally, and support your estimations to the hilt.

So, when do you make the jump to the Green Side, young paduan?

And can you send your old, pathetic, weakling army to me?

Meriwether
21-08-2008, 19:34
Don't forget now that the unit in front gives a unit behind cover, so if you want to shoot lootas, at the back of the board, they have a 4+ cover, as does every unit besides the first.

Not if you shoot _over_ the units, so that they don't block LOS to what's behind them. High vantage points are very good for your long-range shooty guys, no matter what army you're playing.

I recently upset a Blood Angels player by parking my ravager on a hill and obliterating most of a 12-strong jumpy squad that was hiding behind a cheaper tactical squad. He was expecting to get cover saves, but tall hill + tall model = no cover from the intervening unit.

Terrain matters.

Meri

P.S. In 1850 points, my maximum killy death toll is against horde orks with Eldar. I killed over 80 orks in a single shooting phase, using storm guardians, dire avengers, and war walkers (with farseer support). He went from outnumbering me 3:1 to being outnumbered in a single phase. *poof*

redrum
21-08-2008, 19:53
Irondog and Herman, wow beautiful armies both of you. Really inspires me to get to painting my boyz. I just started collecting them a few weeks ago, I'd like to not consider myself a bandwagoner though. I've been saying for years that if I ever got back into 40K it would be Orks all the way. It's a little daunting looking at so much plastic that needs painting. I've been considering mixing it up and having a bunch of different clans represented but seeing how good the two of your armies look as a unified clan I might change my mind. Of course it probably doesn't hurt that you're both obviously much better painters than I am :)

Meriwether
21-08-2008, 19:55
IMO, a unified paint scheme looks much better than a mixture of clans. My boyz are a mixture of clans, and I've regretted it ever since -- but have so many unpainted models I've never gotten around to re-painting already-painted models.

Meri

redrum
21-08-2008, 20:09
IMO, a unified paint scheme looks much better than a mixture of clans. My boyz are a mixture of clans, and I've regretted it ever since -- but have so many unpainted models I've never gotten around to re-painting already-painted models.

Meri

Yeah I was a little worried it might look a little disheveled to have a mix of clans but then I thought, eh they're Orks they're supposed to be a bit disheveled, lol.

Hmm so if I go with one clan it'll either be Goffs or Evil Sunz. I like Bad Moons but painting yellow sucks. What do you guys think, Goffs, Evil Sunz or Bad Moons?

Herman the Heathen
21-08-2008, 20:12
Irondog and Herman, wow beautiful armies both of you. Really inspires me to get to painting my boyz. I just started collecting them a few weeks ago, I'd like to not consider myself a bandwagoner though. I've been saying for years that if I ever got back into 40K it would be Orks all the way. It's a little daunting looking at so much plastic that needs painting. I've been considering mixing it up and having a bunch of different clans represented but seeing how good the two of your armies look as a unified clan I might change my mind. Of course it probably doesn't hurt that you're both obviously much better painters than I am :)

Tnx for the praise.

But please, don't fall in the trap of multi clan ork armies... this was the 2nd ed thing for orks. You got specific benefits for having units from different clans, Blood axes meant you could loot tanks, Goffs could have more Nobz, bad moons more special weapons and so on...

...so I still have an old army looking like a paint shop accident... Bad moon meganobs, death skull lootas, goff slugga boys, evil sunz bikers, snakebite boar boys and so on... still great fun to bring to ths shop and play with from time to time but...

...a unified paint scheme does look better, leave the hippy/fruity/multicolour stuff for the panzees...:angel:

Meriwether
21-08-2008, 20:16
LOL. I learned my lesson with my orks. For my Eldar I rejected the 'skittles army' look and went for a unified color scheme. Uppity fluff-worshipers *hate* it, but I like it much better.

Meri

slingersam
21-08-2008, 20:30
The reason orks are so cheap is because of a a 6+ save, just imagine a regular SM for 10pts but with a 6+ save they will be dropping like flies, could you see how wrong it is to increase the price of a boy. It would get to expensive to field any boy mob. The reason they are so cheap is the 6+ save.

redrum
21-08-2008, 20:31
...so I still have an old army looking like a paint shop accident... Bad moon meganobs, death skull lootas, goff slugga boys, evil sunz bikers, snakebite boar boys and so on... still great fun to bring to ths shop and play with from time to time but...


Lol, that's very similar to what I was considering. Hmm the last time I played 40K was 2nd edition maybe that's why I had that idea stuck in my head. Thanks for setting me straight, now I just need to pick a clan and get to work :eek:

the_crazy_russian
21-08-2008, 20:41
Don't forget now that the unit in front gives a unit behind cover, so if you want to shoot lootas, at the back of the board, they have a 4+ cover, as does every unit besides the first.

The fact is most players of this game for whatever reason are not very good. So they come on here and post how orks aren't overpowered because they lose with them.

Fine, I play chaos. And chaos has the second best basic troops. My list has berserkers and flamers and plenty troops and I can beat orks. But it's not even.

I had what I thought was a nice painted fun, themed army, salamanders basically:

Captain, combimelta, power sword 5 marines, hammer 2 melta
razorback
2 10 man tacticals in rhinos, 1 with flamers, 1 with meltas hammers

5 man 2 plasma razorback

scouts

dread

some tanks

This list couldn't beat a good ork player. The only reason my chaos can is because it is a generic chaos list, with berserkers and black troops that I made no story for and made to be a good playing army. I don't want to use berserkers, I don't like khorne, but I have to if I want to win.

My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

so who said anything about shooting them? why do people insist on engaging in firefights with shooty units and trying to beat assaulty units in hand to hand? there's half your problem right there. use your own assaulters to break through their charging line and attack their firebase! break through on a flank, focus fire on the unit beside your intended target to keep them from charging in to help. all you need do is keep your assaulters from getting bogged down in a protracted combat (the ork will need to bring to bear more than one squad to do this). then use your own shooty stuff to whittle down the mobs in the manner described earlier.

if you are hell-bent on shooting them, try meriwether's suggestion.

also, read over what you just wrote: "a good ork player". if your opponent is good, it doesn't matter what army he's playing. if you want to crush all opponents to a paste, play against the plethora of 8-12 year olds that invariably hang around all game stores. i, for one, don't like my opponent's army to be a pushover.

your list also indicates why you're having problems. you will certainly paste MEQ armies. but this just won't work against hordes. swarm tyranids will roll over you just the same.




I don't want to use berserkers, I don't like khorne, but I have to if I want to win.


no, you don't. there are plenty more viable options to use. raptors (probably the best of the lot), generic chaos marines (add marks at own discretion), tanks, defilers, havocs. the list is huge!




My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

and for crap's sake, stop implying all ork players are noobs that use unassembled models and deodorant bottles for tanks. not counting what has been presented here, i have seen ork armies painted better than eldar (never mind space marines). this is a failure of the individual player and has absolutely no reflection on other ork players as a whole or the army. i just think you're bitter because you refuse to change your tactics to adjust but want to win nonetheless.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-08-2008, 20:50
the very day, i fried 20 orks using one raptor squad with 2 flamers. there was 30 of them in the squad, and said raptor squad beat them in CC.

my squad costed 240 points [10 man with MoK and 2 flamers]

to fry such amount of orks all you need is 5 raptors with 2 flamers - 110 points. too expensive ?

another option is 5 man with flamer and combi-flamer rhino. they even score!

Gensuke626
21-08-2008, 21:03
The quality of anything in this game is relative to its cost. When Ork Boyz at 6 points a pop pump out the same firepower while advancing towards close combat, where they are even more deadly, as marines can only do while stationary then that IS great shooting. They skirt the opportunity cost of rapid fire weapons, which is valuable in itself. They are the most cost-effective firepower in the entire game. The fact that virtually every competitive Ork player takes Shoota Boyz over Slugga Boyz should be an indication of how much of a bargain they are. The value of such cheap firepower becomes even more apparent when contrasted with the 5 point imperial guardsman.A couple of things here.

I think the fact that the 6 point ork is much much better than the 6 pt guardsman is more of an indication of the weakness of the guard list than the strength of the Ork list.

Secondly, I've argued for a very long time that the strength of shoota boyz is mostly precieved value as opposed to true battle field strength. It's very much like the Tankbusta / Loota debate.

Many people won't take Tank Bustas because they view them as weak due to the Glory Hogs rule. And people Love Lootas because of the potential number of shots they can output and the fact that they can theoretically tear through medium armor like paper.

I've found that Glory Hogs doesn't really act as a hinderance if you properly support the Tank bustas. I've sucessfully used Tank Bustas on many Occasions and they're slowly becoming one of my favorite little cheap units.

Lootaz, I love lootaz, but these days it's mostly because my opponent is so scared of them. I usually field a mob of 10 and my opponent targets them first and ignores some of my more dangerous toys like my Trukks. Forget the fact that the Lootaz I field rarely ever make their points back directly over the course of the game, they're a terror weapon and they're worth their cost indirectly.

With Sluggaz and Shootaz it's the same precieved value. Many people say that sluggaz really aren't worth it because shootaz get more shots at longer range and are more flexible on the battle field, even if they cause less damage in melee.

I've never found a good use for Shootaz other than to hold an objective on my side of the table. I run 3 20 ork mobz, 2 are always sluggaz and they advance with KFF in tow. They usually get to charge and they are a wonderful core to my army.

The biggest problem comes in with smart opponents. Shoota boyz look good on paper, but there have been many occasions where I choose to not fire my sluggaz if I can't garuntee a charge. If I eyeball it and I look like I'm 5-6" from the enemy, I don't shoot cause I KNOW that my opponent is going to try to remove the model closest to me regardless if it's a flamer, a heavy bolter, or a vet sarge with lightning claws, just to prevent me from getting the charge. If my chances to kill with shoota boyz are much better, then I'm wasting quite a bit of firepower.



I think your other points are sound, just initially exaggerated. I personally don't have any real problems with Orks, but I do think they have the strongest codex at the moment in the tournament scene along with Tyranids. (I don't think the margin is that wide, so there's nothing wrong with this--someone has to be on top after all.) As others have said, this might be a result of people being stuck in their ways and bringing anti-MEQ lists to tournaments thereby giving horde armies an edge. However, I suspect it has more to do with the massive flexibility and customization allowed by the Ork book, similar to the 4th edition Chaos codex.
Again, we agree...this must be some kinda record for us Danny...I really think that the biggest reason that Orks are dominating is because of the metagame and the "Bring to kill Marines" mentality more than the orks codex being OP.

But I think even you'll agree that the old Chaos Codex was much more powerful and flexible than the current orks are.


Don't forget now that the unit in front gives a unit behind cover, so if you want to shoot lootas, at the back of the board, they have a 4+ cover, as does every unit besides the first.As I said above, if you're shooting at the Lootaz, you may be targetting the wrong unit. Unless the guy's army is based around the concept of a Loota Firebase, it's generally safe to ignore the Lootaz to concentrate on the Trukkz, the Wagonz, and the Green Tide...you know, the stuff that will actually kill you with more than a lucky shot.


The fact is most players of this game for whatever reason are not very good. So they come on here and post how orks aren't overpowered because they lose with them.Woah, woah woah...back up a minute. Most players are not very good? Excuse me? Did you just say that I'm not good? Did you just say that Irondog isn't good? Did you just say that Cailus, Reddanekks and all of my mates on the WLO thread are not good? Did you just say that Brimstone and Philbrad aren't good?

Watch your blanket statements mate. It doesn't help your arguement at all.


Fine, I play chaos. And chaos has the second best basic troops. My list has berserkers and flamers and plenty troops and I can beat orks. But it's not even. Not even as in what? Not even as you can't get a close game, it's always a massacre for one side or the other, or not even as in you can't consitently win? Previous posts from you would indicate that you're the kind of player who thinks that a list isn't even if you can't beat it on a regular basis.


I had what I thought was a nice painted fun, themed army, salamanders basically:

Captain, combimelta, power sword 5 marines, hammer 2 melta
razorback
2 10 man tacticals in rhinos, 1 with flamers, 1 with meltas hammers

5 man 2 plasma razorback

scouts

dread

some tanks

This list couldn't beat a good ork player.
Last statement first, that's because it's a bad list. I don't know the specifics of your list, but I'm going to go gen an SM list that I think can handle a horde while being a decent take all comers list.


The only reason my chaos can is because it is a generic chaos list, with berserkers and black troops that I made no story for and made to be a good playing army. I don't want to use berserkers, I don't like khorne, but I have to if I want to win. have you tried using Noise Marines vs Ork mobs? I've seen noise marines disintegrate Ork mobs. And you don't need to use berzerkers, it's just that they're better than raptors, but I've also seen raptors and termies rip ork mobz to Shreds. I know you're in Hawaii, but I'm not sure where you are. On Hawaiigamers.net forum, there's a guy posting under the name Fenris. Ask him about the list he brought to the last RTT. That's a mean list.


My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.Others have better painted Ork Armies than I do. In my defence, most of my stuff is at least 3 color minimum. It takes a long time to paint 110 models, Mr. Marine player...

But painting and following the precieved fluff is only part of the game. List building and table tactics is the other side. If you don't build your list properly or know what to do when you hit the table, you're going to lose.

LOL. I learned my lesson with my orks. For my Eldar I rejected the 'skittles army' look and went for a unified color scheme. Uppity fluff-worshipers *hate* it, but I like it much better.

Meri

Eldar, Taste The Rainbow?

Captain Frankus
21-08-2008, 21:14
Hmm..... well I'm starting orks now as my secondary army. I've got the codex and the orks are well.. random. They will best most armies at melee, but will not not be the best shooty army. I like the concept of orks! No structured way to fight with them, unlike chaos (usually take khorne and nurgle) I play space marine because when I was young and didn't go to the store much thought they were a rare army. I mean i thought "There are so many cool armies! They can't all be space marine right? RIIIIIGHT?" Boy how wrong I was. I hope not to be a battlewagon person

the_crazy_russian
21-08-2008, 21:57
Woah, woah woah...back up a minute. Most players are not very good? Excuse me? Did you just say that I'm not good? Did you just say that Irondog isn't good? Did you just say that Cailus, Reddanekks and all of my mates on the WLO thread are not good? Did you just say that Brimstone and Philbrad aren't good?


that's a solid point, gensuke, i hadn't thought to rip up that particular statement of the OP. if most players aren't good, and say that orks are not overpowered because they can't win with them, then what's to complain about? or, on the other side of the coin, what does that say for the skill of the complainer?

Grand Master Raziel
21-08-2008, 21:59
I've had two games against Orks since the new dex came out, one a 4th edition game, the other a 5th edition game, 1500pts both times. Used a take-all-comers Space Marine list both times. Won both of them by a fair margin.

AfroCelt
21-08-2008, 22:14
I've had two games against Orks since the new dex came out, one a 4th edition game, the other a 5th edition game, 1500pts both times. Used a take-all-comers Space Marine list both times. Won both of them by a fair margin.

Raziel, could you post one of those lists? It'll help the OP see what works and what doesn't in killing orks (and everyone else!)

Grimbad
21-08-2008, 22:41
My Salamnders were nice and I tried to make them according to fluff, but they sucked and you take a nice army that you took time to convert and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

I, like so many other ork players here, take offence at this. I don't take offence at what you said earlier about unpainted ork armies, as that does apply to me (I spend too much time converting to paint*) but broken, proxied crap? I've seen more salamanders armies with broken, proxied crap than ork armies in such a condition, and I've only ever seen one salamanders army!

Take a quick look at some of the projects here (http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25118) before you make another generalized insult to the artistic talent of ork players.

*Because I play an incredibly fluffy feral ork force, complete with boarboyz and squiggoths.

Gensuke626
22-08-2008, 00:49
I spent some time looking things over and realised that I don't know marines well enough to make a good list with them. I keep coming up with model counts around 50 and 60 and I keep thinking, man, I'd kill for another 40 guys. Guess Orks have spoiled me on the whole numbers game.

That being said, my thoughts on having a good Salamanders themed Marine list that would fare well against an ork horde revolved around 2 10 man squads with 2 flamers that Drop pod in. The pods would ahve deathwind launchers, cause I was looking at them and I figure a S5 AP6 large blast weapon on a deep striking AV12 vehicle would be more than worth it when fighting horde Orks.

These two squads would drop in behind the tide while a firebase made up of ML/flamer equiped tac squads and HB Razor Backs try to hold the line against the tide.

Originally I also had an LRC with 5 Assault Termies (FC + LCs) being led around by a Chaplain in Termy armor with a pair of LCs, but I decided that that was too much of a point sink for me.

Metaphorazine
22-08-2008, 07:29
Please make the distinction and adjust your future posts accordingly.

And OBEY THE TURBO-SQUIG! I love that little guy, so cute, with his little wheels and big teeth... :D

Moriarty
22-08-2008, 07:49
...a unified paint scheme does look better, leave the hippy/fruity/multicolour stuff for the panzees...:angel:

Oi! And the Freebooterz!

:-)

bratbag
22-08-2008, 07:57
See, this is what happens when you leave orks with that crappy early 3rd edition codex for so long.

The people that stuck with orks and learned to make them competitive had to become incredible gamers just to have close fights with other forces (believe that the tournament winners with their cheesy eldar/CSM/M/Zilla lists are the best if you want, I believe that every ork gamer who managed to achieve a better than 50/50 win/loss ratio under the old ork codex touched levels of skill those 'winners' never could ;) )

Now, after years of us old -timer ork gamers becoming lean, mean wh40k fighting machines we get given a codex thats actually competitive at baseline without an excellent player using them.

What do you thinks going to happen :D

Radium
22-08-2008, 07:59
...a unified paint scheme does look better, leave the hippy/fruity/multicolour stuff for the panzees...:angel:

But once again said panzees seem to have no problems at all with the orks. Avengers, Scorpions, Scatter Lasers, Mind war (to take out the Nob) etc etc.

I haven't lost from Orks once with my Eldar. And I have played some very different lists (from horde, to loota spam, to bike lists) at everything from 1000 to 2000 pts.

Orks are a very tough list, but they can be beaten at their own game when you pick your targets right.

Latro_
22-08-2008, 11:24
See, this is what happens when you leave orks with that crappy early 3rd edition codex for so long.

The people that stuck with orks and learned to make them competitive had to become incredible gamers just to have close fights with other forces (believe that the tournament winners with their cheesy eldar/CSM/M/Zilla lists are the best if you want, I believe that every ork gamer who managed to achieve a better than 50/50 win/loss ratio under the old ork codex touched levels of skill those 'winners' never could ;) )

Now, after years of us old -timer ork gamers becoming lean, mean wh40k fighting machines we get given a codex thats actually competitive at baseline without an excellent player using them.

What do you thinks going to happen :D


You know what, there is alot of truth int that! Not so much about the gamer's being amazing but the fact that ork players have had a hard time over 10 years trying to refine tactics and knowing the limits of their troops. That much refinement is defo gonna produce players who know what they are doing with the green ladz and combined with a more powerful list creates instant deadly orky armies.

Meriwether
22-08-2008, 16:35
I never thought the old codex was uncompetitive. A lot of the whining I heard didn't keep me from winning a lot with them. :D

Meri

Jos
22-08-2008, 16:46
I haven't played orks that much but it sems OP's arguments were somewhat unclear and "whiney". Nothing wrong with that, it comes with every new release...

Gensuke626
22-08-2008, 20:22
I haven't played orks that much but it sems OP's arguments were somewhat unclear and "whiney". Nothing wrong with that, it comes with every new release...

I think there's definately a lot wrong with the OP being as "whiney" as he's being. He's being whiney to the point where he's insulting whole swathes of players because he thinks he's right. Not that he's saying that we're all powergamers or anything. If that were the case, we'd just laugh at him.

Op's arguments are:
Ork Players Lack Tactics
Ork Players Lack Painting Skills
Ork Players always proxy half of their models.
Ork Players can't assemble their models correctly
Ork Players are generally bad at 40k


Those aren't whiney comments. Those are outright attacks.

Irondog
23-08-2008, 02:12
Damn right, Gensuke.

In fact I'm suprised the mods didn't shut this thread down for trolling from the start. It's pretty obvious the OP started the thread to get a rise out of people. We haven't seen him in this thread for a while now. Typical troll, he starts with the inflammatory comments and then runs and hides when the heat gets too much for him.

Gensuke626
23-08-2008, 02:30
Which is sad cause I know the guy. He lives down here in Hawaii...and I never thought he was a jerk untill he showed up on Warseer and started up an argument about something else. I think it had to do with Assaulting out of difficult terrain...

vladsimpaler
23-08-2008, 04:01
well, i find ork codex fun and powerful. as it should be.

no tactics ?

without tactics it is very very hard to win when playing good player.

hmm, maybe i'll start hordes to show them that green horde can be tactical

Maybe it's just me, but Ork hordes are the worst example to me of point and click.

Move all your guys. Luckily you have 180 of the darn things so it doesn't matter if you mess up. Then run.

Next turn, move again. You're most likely close enough. If not, then move and run again. If you are, then do a WAAGH!, and then you're assaulting the enemy with at least a hundred attacks.

SwordJon
23-08-2008, 04:02
See, this is what happens when you leave orks with that crappy early 3rd edition codex for so long.

The people that stuck with orks and learned to make them competitive had to become incredible gamers just to have close fights with other forces (believe that the tournament winners with their cheesy eldar/CSM/M/Zilla lists are the best if you want, I believe that every ork gamer who managed to achieve a better than 50/50 win/loss ratio under the old ork codex touched levels of skill those 'winners' never could ;) )

Now, after years of us old -timer ork gamers becoming lean, mean wh40k fighting machines we get given a codex thats actually competitive at baseline without an excellent player using them.

What do you thinks going to happen :D

This. A hundred times this. With the old book, I had between a 60-70% win ratio. My most difficult games were typically against balanced Tyranid lists. I didn't win much of those.

I've probably played 25-35 games with the new rules (most of which were in 5th edition, I got to start using it at my LGS a month before it's release), and I haven't lost a single game, and only had maybe around 5 draws.

Suck it, oomies. Suck it.

vladsimpaler
23-08-2008, 04:40
Suck it, oomies. Suck it.

I think that this comment would carry more weight if the Orks could sexually reproduce! :p


P.S. Freebooterz are the coolest Orks ever.

Zephyr_Azure
23-08-2008, 05:38
I finally had my first official not-againt-a-friend 5th edition game with my orks against a typical tau list with crisis suits x6 emphasis. (1000 points)

Having switched from marines, I was dismayed to watch my first mob get evaporated by a firewarrior squad, but wow.....lootas are the death of crisis suits.

Won contesting the table quarters since I outnumbered him with a balanced list and had my bike squad and two trukks worth of shoota boys rampaging through his deployment zone.

Three cheers for the rise of a new GREEN age!

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 10:12
they just change the metagame. i think it is fair.

lachlin
23-08-2008, 13:30
Maybe it's just me, but Ork hordes are the worst example to me of point and click.

Move all your guys. Luckily you have 180 of the darn things so it doesn't matter if you mess up. Then run.

Next turn, move again. You're most likely close enough. If not, then move and run again. If you are, then do a WAAGH!, and then you're assaulting the enemy with at least a hundred attacks.

Doesn't this kind of represent the "green tide" effect GW mentions in all its fluff? besides it would be less than 100 attacks being as the orks will be getting the crap shot out of them for possibly two turns and then go last in HTH (generally) once they get there.

AyatollahofRockinRolla
23-08-2008, 13:58
I played horde Orks with the old codex, before it was the flavor of the month. I had more wins than losses. As the other veteran Ork players have said, we've honed our skills with an underpowered codex, now we're unleashed upon the galaxy.

A mighty Waaahhg has been called, tremble in your boots you fishy\spikey\beakie\oommie\tin'ead\pansies.

I have to admit the allure of shooty Orks has infected me. I'll take Lootaz over my old min/maxed Flash gitz any day. The Lootaz have to make up for my missing looted Basilisk also.

When the new codex came out I ran 2x30 slugga boys and 2x30 shoota boys. Now I run 3x30 shoota boys and 1 squad of gretchin(10-19 grots).

BTW The army I field is 100% painted to a decent standard. 19 out of 21 pts at the last RTT tourney I attended.

northoceanbeach
23-08-2008, 17:50
Which is sad cause I know the guy. He lives down here in Hawaii...and I never thought he was a jerk untill he showed up on Warseer and started up an argument about something else. I think it had to do with Assaulting out of difficult terrain...

I'm not sure me voicing my opinion about something I don't like about a game makes me jerk exactly. I've heard lots of anti space marine sentiment and I wouldn't translate what is written on warseer to whether or not I liked that person with many other qualities, in real life.

Also I never said ork players lack skill. I don;t know where that came from. If you want me to summerize what I said it was this.

I don't like orks first off. I think they are cartoonish, add a comic element I don't like and are a direct rip off of lord of the rings.

Ork codex is overpowered, making for poorly matched games. Ork PLAYERS have a greater tendency to not paint their armies. whether it is because of the high model count which is understandable and overwhelming, or the fact that because they are a cartoony army, they attract players that are younger or whatnot, I don't know. So, if I have a nice army and play a game with a stranger, I don't like their unpainted, perhaps proxied army beating mine. I'm not a powergamer, that's just a situation I don't like.

The fact is every one agrees that compared to gueard orks are too good. My point is that it's not necessarily the guard codex, or any other codex that needs to be changed to be brought inot line with orks, it's the fact that thew orks is out of line with the rest of the codeces.

I didn't insult anybody here, so don't take it so personally. I've got a right to an opinion, and if I don't than all warseer will become is a love fest where we can't openly and honestly talk about the good and the bad, but only the good and it will really be pointless.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 18:10
I'm not sure me voicing my opinion about something I don't like about a game makes me jerk exactly. I've heard lots of anti space marine sentiment and I wouldn't translate what is written on warseer to whether or not I liked that person with many other qualities, in real life.

Also I never said ork players lack skill. I don;t know where that came from. If you want me to summerize what I said it was this.

I don't like orks first off. I think they are cartoonish, add a comic element I don't like and are a direct rip off of lord of the rings.

Ork codex is overpowered, making for poorly matched games. Ork PLAYERS have a greater tendency to not paint their armies. whether it is because of the high model count which is understandable and overwhelming, or the fact that because they are a cartoony army, they attract players that are younger or whatnot, I don't know. So, if I have a nice army and play a game with a stranger, I don't like their unpainted, perhaps proxied army beating mine. I'm not a powergamer, that's just a situation I don't like.

The fact is every one agrees that compared to gueard orks are too good. My point is that it's not necessarily the guard codex, or any other codex that needs to be changed to be brought inot line with orks, it's the fact that thew orks is out of line with the rest of the codeces.

I didn't insult anybody here, so don't take it so personally. I've got a right to an opinion, and if I don't than all warseer will become is a love fest where we can't openly and honestly talk about the good and the bad, but only the good and it will really be pointless.

imo your reasoning is bit flawed.

SM can beat orks just fine, you just need to use FLAMERS and BLAST weapons.

Imperial Guard is weaker than Orks, but it is IG who need to be updated.

You speak from strict MEQ perspective. MEQ domination need to be thing from the past. Metagame should shift from High S low AP weapons, to Low S high AP weapons with many shoots/blasts/templates.

Before you ask. I play SM and CSM, and i have non-proxied, well painted army.

slingersam
23-08-2008, 18:33
Ok the way u said it might be a little understanding but in your original post it was an out right Bash on Ork players. Also the Ork codex isn't over powered its that the other codex's need to be brought up to date. Also people really do need to start bringing all comers list now not anti meq lists.

Meriwether
23-08-2008, 18:56
I'm not sure me voicing my opinion about something I don't like about a game makes me jerk exactly.

In my experience most people are jerks _because_ of their opinions. This is not categorically true, but it's often true.


Ork codex is overpowered, making for poorly matched games.

...and you have since demonstrated that you have made no attempt to modify your own army to deal with the new metagame of a horde army that actually _works_.


Ork PLAYERS have a greater tendency to not paint their armies.

I'd love to see anything even vaguely approaching proof of this. You are casting asperations on an entire group of people based on what must be a tremendously limited field of experience. (How many Ork players have you played? Out of how many are there? How do the percentages of ork players with unpainted armies or parts of armies compare to the percentages of non-ork players with unpainted armies or parts of armies? Where's your _data_?)

If casting asperations on an entire group of people based on a limited experience isn't being a _jerk_, it is absolutely being _prejudiced_. Now, mind you, prejudice-against-people-who-play-a-particular-40K-army is a pretty tame form of prejudice to succumb to (as compared to, say, sexism, racism, or homophobia), but it's still prejudice.

Note: I am using the actual definition of the word, and not using it as a pejorative.

One could equate prejudice with general jerkism, and I for one do not see that as an unreasonable parallel to make.


So, if I have a nice army and play a game with a stranger, I don't like their unpainted, perhaps proxied army beating mine.

I fail to see what that has to do with Orks, the Ork army, or Ork players.


The fact is every one agrees that compared to gueard orks are too good.

Ah. So you've polled _everyone_. Can I see the data?


I didn't insult anybody here, so don't take it so personally.

Actually, you _did_ insult people with your prejudiced remarks. Big time. Perhaps you did not _intend_ to insult anyone, but you did. And the reason you insulted people is that what you said was (a) prejudiced and (b) insulting. It is situations like this for which the apology was invented.


I've got a right to an opinion, and if I don't than all warseer will become is a love fest where we can't openly and honestly talk about the good and the bad, but only the good and it will really be pointless.

Very true. You also have the right to be (or not to be) a prejudiced jerk, if you so choose. That doesn't mean that you have a right to people *liking* your opinion, *respecting* your prejudices, or responding favorably to your complaints.

Meri

Kurisu313
23-08-2008, 19:24
What Meri Said.

At my club we have two ork players, both with fully painted armies. So by my data, 100% of ork players have fully painted armies :D

How can you not like orks? Even when you lose you have fun! I kill orks by the hundreds and lose? That feels good to me! The comedic nature of orks make them a joy to play against. And that's not saying that I don't have wins against them, cuz I do.

You're a salamander player, right? Well, they were at armageddon, and my bet is Tu'shan said put away the meltas and break out the flamers. Sallies are famous for flamers too, y'know.

We'll be getting a new marine dex soon complete with a sallie character. I imagine that your win ratio will increase then.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 19:48
We'll be getting a new marine dex soon complete with a sallie character. I imagine that your win ratio will increase then.

somebody need to play better to increase win ratio :>

northoceanbeach
23-08-2008, 21:03
Actually, you _did_ insult people with your prejudiced remarks. Big time. Perhaps you did not _intend_ to insult anyone, but you did. And the reason you insulted people is that what you said was (a) prejudiced and (b) insulting. It is situations like this for which the apology was invented.

Meri

Well, noone on here is an ork, so to me, they shouldn't take it as hard as they did.
Maybe the purpose of a forum is different to me than to others. I think it is a way to express my opinion, and hear others express theirs whether I like it or not. But maybe to alot of people it is a way to make online friends and interact and try not to hurt others feelings or say anything that may offend anyone.

I would rather know what people really think of the game and it's rules. It doesn't look like many agree with me, and that's ok. Now I know the concensus of opinion on the power of the ork codex which is what I wanted in the first place.

Dribble Joy
24-08-2008, 00:11
I am still confused on why this would affect nids...

Nids are *not* fearless, they have synapse which does not make them count as fearless. They pass their tests the same way a fearless model would--but because they don't actually have the fearless rule I am pretty sure they take no negative modifiers during combat.

Not sure if this has been answered, but this point is incorrect. It is not only fearless/ATSKNF units that suffer from No Retreat, any unit that automatically passes Ld based tests does too. Page 44.
Cause a combat loss of 18 on a full unit of basic gaunts and the unit is dead.

I can't really elaborate on the thread subject as what needed to be said has been.

I do have a full painted army of Orks, even up to about 5000 points. Though to be fair it's mostly meganobs and super heavies.

Latro_
24-08-2008, 00:45
Well, noone on here is an ork, so to me, they shouldn't take it as hard as they did.
Maybe the purpose of a forum is different to me than to others. I think it is a way to express my opinion, and hear others express theirs whether I like it or not. But maybe to alot of people it is a way to make online friends and interact and try not to hurt others feelings or say anything that may offend anyone.

I would rather know what people really think of the game and it's rules. It doesn't look like many agree with me, and that's ok. Now I know the concensus of opinion on the power of the ork codex which is what I wanted in the first place.

ok my opinion is that space marines are also cartoonish, and overplayed. They are a rip off of storm troopers from star wars. People who paly marines lack imagination and skill since they are such a forgiving army. They also are poor at painting as all the models are very basic and bland.

See... that glimmer of annoyance you just felt? It is more or less the same kinda roasting you gave orks and ork players....

Orks are SO not broken. I just came back from a game tonight, blast and flamer weapons annihilate ork mobs. My mate used two flamers on a mob of 20... 9 dead. The 'only' thing i'd consider a bit too powerful is a biker warboss with squig, power klaw, cybork body he's T6 has 6 S10 attacks on the charge and cant be instant killed by marine powerfists. I run this lil fella and he always is the bane of my opponent's life. He's 150 pts and in this game today killed 500pts worth of stuff.

Meriwether
24-08-2008, 03:12
Well, noone on here is an ork, so to me, they shouldn't take it as hard as they did.

This, sir, is a copout. The points that people took offense to had nothing to do with orks. They had to do with ork _PLAYERS_, and the very uncharitable (and unfounded) generalizations/stereotypes you projected onto them.

Some things you've said about ork PLAYERS --and not the ork army or the fictional little critters themselves, but actual human beings who responded negatively to the tripe you're spewing-- include (underlines for emphasis mine):


...and then some ork player come with his broken unpainted junk and smokes him with no stategy. Because those are two things I never see an Ork player have, a painted army or any strategy.

...and then one of the 400 new ork players throws their broken proxied crap on the table beats you, it's not win at all costs, it's not playing the game as it was meant to be played. In my opinion it is just as greasy to leave out 50% of the hobby which is painting as it is someone who plays the game with some strategy and would like to win.

...Ork PLAYERS have a greater tendency to not paint their armies.

All of which are directed at Ork PLAYERS, and not the orks themselves. So your flippant little remark about none of us being orks is a copout and a load of garbage. We _are_ ork players, and you have made some prejudiced, unfounded, and obnoxious comments defaming us as a group... Thus, copout.

If you're going to make prejudiced comments that unjustly defame a group of people you've never met, either own them or apologize for them, but don't try to say you never said anything.

The 'convenient ignorance of things I've just said' prize goes to the next two quotes. The reason will be obvious when you put them side-by-side:


The fact is most players of this game for whatever reason are not very good. So they come on here and post how orks aren't overpowered because they lose with them.

....Also I never said ork players lack skill. I don;t know where that came from.(Meri interjectin: **WE** know where it came from...)

Thus, copout, copout, copout.

If you don't care whether or not you insulted a bunch of people, that's your thing, man. But don't expect us to swallow some stupid line that you were talking about the ork _army_, and not ork _players_, when we have all the evidence to the contrary staring us in the face.

Either own your prejudiced, obnoxious comments, apologize for them, or pretend they never existed. Your choice. My suggestion would be to man up, but then, I'm just an ork player.

Meri

Rombo Baak
24-08-2008, 03:15
Clap, clap, clap

Ghilleman
24-08-2008, 03:25
those are two things I never see an Ork player have, a painted army or any strategy. And I can't blame them for the lack of strategy because you don't need it
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm rather insulted that you insinuate that all Ork players must have unpainted armies and use no tactics. I suppose these "unbeatable" Orks must give all their players a X-0 win/loss ratio. I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where any ork player can win by effectively picking his nose and throwing dice around.

And where exactly is this "great" shooting that permeates the army when we have at BS2?

Irondog
24-08-2008, 03:55
Well said, Meri.

A very well thought out, accurate, and eloquent response. You sure you plays orks, man? ;)

I for one probably have more ork in me than is healthy. I just want to grab the OP by the neck and bury a choppa in his face. :D

the_crazy_russian
24-08-2008, 03:58
Well said, Meri.

A very well thought out, accurate, and eloquent response. You sure you plays orks, man? ;)

I for one probably have more ork in me than is healthy. I just want to grab the OP by the neck and bury a choppa in his face. :D

this is why i never argue on forums beyond 2-3 posts. neither side will ever back down and only grow more billigerent because the sobering kick in the soft bits can't be delivered.

Irondog
24-08-2008, 04:14
this is why i never argue on forums beyond 2-3 posts. neither side will ever back down and only grow more billigerent because the sobering kick in the soft bits can't be delivered.

Very true. However, I know somebody that probably can deliver it. Hey Gensuke, wanna do me a favor? :D

Metaphorazine
24-08-2008, 05:01
A lot of stuff.

Well said, sir, well said. The OP's attitude was very insulting, and then to come along and say "Oh, I just wanted an opinion on the rules! Why the hostility?" was very shortsighted (and a barefaced lie.)

If it wasn't for the sheer hilarity of a Marine player claiming that Ork's have the "Win-Gaem-Nao-Pls" button, I'd be even more infuriated. Orks languished many years with a sub-standard codex, and now that they have a competitive one and the OP's list designed around killing MEQ's doesn't work quite so well on Orks, he comes on here and spews vitriol. Not impressive at all.

Luckywallace
24-08-2008, 08:11
Well said Meri.

I think we have all concluded that the Ork Codex is not over-powered, just decently competative and that many of the problems stem from the las-plas reliant anti-MEQ metagame.

Now, time for me to get back to my (fully modeled and pained) Bad Moons and continue their Waaagh!

GloomyGrim
24-08-2008, 08:24
I just wanna say to the Op and people with same opinion...
Excuse us ork players for finally have a decent,competitive codex after 9 years of waiting.:rolleyes: we'll try to lose more games to make you feel better. :rolleyes:

Gensuke626
24-08-2008, 21:37
Very true. However, I know somebody that probably can deliver it. Hey Gensuke, wanna do me a favor? :D

See, the thing is, do you want a swift kick or a pineapple drop?

Irondog
24-08-2008, 23:07
See, the thing is, do you want a swift kick or a pineapple drop?

Dealer's choice, my man. Dealer's choice. :D

Fire Harte
24-08-2008, 23:19
Dealer's choice, my man. Dealer's choice. :D

Well I vote both!:D

Orks are not broken. In fact every game I have ever played against orksies except my first one, I have had close games against. The OP is wrong, there are still many mistakes a gamer can make with an orky horde it is unbelieveable.

I'll be playing orks soon, and I am looking forward to the fair, fun and amusing games I am sure I will have!

Gensuke626
24-08-2008, 23:23
You'll like Orks, I'm fairly certain.

Orks aren't for everyone. We know that there is no One size fits all army. OP just has an irrational hatred of the Green Tide. Dunno what else to call it.

I think this thread has ran it's course of usefullness. More Ork love should go to the WLO thread. Anyone else with Ork hate can shove it.

Just kidding, just kidding. If you can't beat orks, post to the tactics forum. Ork players like giving advice on how to beat them. Close games are much more fun.

vladsimpaler
25-08-2008, 01:14
And where exactly is this "great" shooting that permeates the army when we have at BS2?

Your shooting is better than an Imperial Guardsman? :eyebrows:
This is what I've encountered, at least.

For example, 6 Ork shootas is 12 shots, and you're going to hit with 4.
However, 6 Guardsmen is 6 shots, and they're going to hit with 3.

And please don't get me into the to-wound rolls...:(

ron3090
25-08-2008, 02:01
Your shooting is better than an Imperial Guardsman? :eyebrows:
This is what I've encountered, at least.

For example, 6 Ork shootas is 12 shots, and you're going to hit with 4.
However, 6 Guardsmen is 6 shots, and they're going to hit with 3.

And please don't get me into the to-wound rolls...:(
Ah, yes, but the Guardsmen have TANKS. Lots of big, heavily armed tanks.

vladsimpaler
25-08-2008, 02:37
Which have to stay stationary most of the time. And are always hit on the rear armor when assaulted.

I suppose that you've heard of the 30 Ork Boyz mob with a Nob that has a Power Klaw?

Yeah, that's pretty much a dead tank right there. :(

Aladin_sane
25-08-2008, 12:45
. More Ork love should go to the WLO thread. Anyone else with Ork hate can shove it.


There's one of these? Where damn it?! :D

Eta
25-08-2008, 13:49
"Who loves Orks" thread can be found here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080).

Cheers

ChaosTicket
25-08-2008, 14:13
Actually I think it is that Orks have changed since the 3rd edition, and it's not all that good. Orks now either have small easily destroyed units, or huge ones that win only through numbers and hidden Powerclaws.

Now that ork boyz are only 66% of the cost they were before, why not get 30 strong units? Even more so that most of your heavy weapons have been given to units of Burnas, Tankbustas, and Lootas.

You barely need to try as orks. Yes huge numbers of Orks with "Hidden" Power Claws are major threats to enemies. If your Opponent takes a Predator Annihilator, it with be completely worthless versus orks without vehicles.

People who do swarm orks have alot to paint.

Orks, are limited overall in what they can or can't do. Orks don't have any tough vehicles besides the Battlewagon, orks don't have any long range besides Deffguns, Big Gunz, and Big Shootas. You either swarm the enemy with foot boys or Rush to them with Trukk boyz.

I don't expect it will be long before orks have lost almost all armor and firepower and focused into a complete melee army like Tyranids, with only enough shooting to keep your enemies' head down before you get into melee.

Fire Harte
25-08-2008, 15:46
Actually I think it is that Orks have changed since the 3rd edition, and it's not all that good. Orks now either have small easily destroyed units, or huge ones that win only through numbers and hidden Powerclaws.

Now that ork boyz are only 66% of the cost they were before, why not get 30 strong units? Even more so that most of your heavy weapons have been given to units of Burnas, Tankbustas, and Lootas.

You barely need to try as orks. Yes huge numbers of Orks with "Hidden" Power Claws are major threats to enemies. If your Opponent takes a Predator Annihilator, it with be completely worthless versus orks without vehicles.

People who do swarm orks have alot to paint.

Orks, are limited overall in what they can or can't do. Orks don't have any tough vehicles besides the Battlewagon, orks don't have any long range besides Deffguns, Big Gunz, and Big Shootas. You either swarm the enemy with foot boys or Rush to them with Trukk boyz.

I don't expect it will be long before orks have lost almost all armor and firepower and focused into a complete melee army like Tyranids, with only enough shooting to keep your enemies' head down before you get into melee.


What? That is what orksies are! Damn of course they have 20+ mobs of boyz or loadsa vehicles! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF AN ORK WAAAGH!

Latro_
25-08-2008, 15:50
Really, has anyone actually faced 180 foot sloggin boys?
That many orks are going to be taking lots of difficult terrain tests, not to mention having to be bunched up in their deployment zone. Without fast stuff they are also gonna take lots of punishment early on from shooting.

Time and time again i see this 'ork spam, just chuck as much on the table and run' = win. Its a load of rubbish. To play an effective ork army you need a mix of fast stuff to engage the enemy early on and plenty of long range stuff to keep home objectives and provide covering fire. All of this involves careful planning and tactics, the core foot slogging element should indeed be the core of any ork force but never the whole of it.

and,,,

If your Opponent takes a Predator Annihilator, it with be completely worthless versus orks without vehicles.
so what? If i turn up with a deathwing army mounted in land raiders then a predator destructor is now 'worthless'? The whole point of collecting and putting together an army is so that it can take on 'anyone'.

RampagingRavener
25-08-2008, 16:09
orks don't have any long range besides Deffguns, Big Gunz, and Big Shootas.

And Killkannons. And Boomguns. And the Shokk Attack gun.

Latro's quite right. The idea that you can just throw 150-odd models down on the table, scream "ZERG- I mean, ORK RUSH!" And collect your instant Massacre result is a blatant fallacy. I'm not going to doubt that Orks are one of the more powerful armies out there, but it's not quite as easy as a lot of people seem to be making out.

AfroCelt
25-08-2008, 21:23
I was taken apart this weekend by a skillful SM Player. Even after a lucky shot by my Shokk Attack Gun instantly killed his ENTIRE COMMAND SQUAD (I love double 6s...) he managed to hold me off two objectives by focusing fire on the trukks, bikes and fast stuff, making me slowly slog 80 boys under a hail of bolter rounds. He didn't even need a flamer to do it.

End of the game, I held one objective and contested two...he had two completely controlled.

I'll also target that str 10 AP2 demolisher cannon first next time...

Moriarty
25-08-2008, 21:41
I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where any ork player can win by effectively picking his nose and throwing dice around.


Damn, there goes _my _ battle-plan, then.

So, smackdown complete, can we leave this to die the ignominious death of all ignored threads?

Ben
25-08-2008, 22:40
I've seen a fair few games played with the new Ork dex in fourth, but not fifth yet, and it is fine. Not as hard as the panzees, and has problems with CSM built to fight hordes, but better than most of the old 4th codices.

I'll be collecting Orks when AoBR comes out, already got a number here for Gorkamorka.

northoceanbeach
25-08-2008, 23:38
Either own your prejudiced, obnoxious comments, apologize for them, or pretend they never existed. Your choice. My suggestion would be to man up, but then, I'm just an ork player.

Meri


I'll be sorry for saying that they usually play with a bunch of unpainted crap. That was insulting and I'm sorry. I miss Hawaii. I haven't been there in about two months and I'm about ready to go back. Not everywhere has the great gaming scene that place has. Not here certainly.

Captin Korea!
26-08-2008, 00:13
I'll be sorry for saying that they usually play with a bunch of unpainted crap. That was insulting and I'm sorry. I miss Hawaii. I haven't been there in about two months and I'm about ready to go back. Not everywhere has the great gaming scene that place has. Not here certainly.

Where are you gaming at right now? I have never had a bad exp with orks. The 30 man mobs are scary, yes but that's why we have battle cannons heavy bolters, flamers and a better I.

ChaosTicket
26-08-2008, 15:23
And Killkannons. And Boomguns. And the Shokk Attack gun.

Latro's quite right. The idea that you can just throw 150-odd models down on the table, scream "ZERG- I mean, ORK RUSH!" And collect your instant Massacre result is a blatant fallacy. I'm not going to doubt that Orks are one of the more powerful armies out there, but it's not quite as easy as a lot of people seem to be making out.

Oh, no orks can be massively powerful. If you don't have adequate anti-tank weapons that Speed Freaks can rush you, if you don't have Sufficient anti-infantry you'll get swarmed.

Orks can have Weirdboyz, Warbosses, or Big Meks each with strong abilities, like the Weirdboy can give you a free WAAAAGH! move, maybe every turn if he's a Warphead. A Big mek with a Shokk Attack gun can blow up whole squads of MEQs at 60". A Warboss on a Bike and carrying a powerclaw can rip through units and damage tanks.

The things is that orks tend to be one-sided. You can have lots of Rush units or swarms, but they don't work that well together.

As I already made several examples, things like 30 strong boyz mobs and 20strong stormboys can be devastating, or completely ineffective.

I'm personally peeved that you can't do anything to secure that, like if you want heavy weapons you need to get Burnas, Lootas, or Tankbustas, but it wasn't so with the 3rd edition codex, as you could easily get 4 Big Shootas or Rokkit Launchas in a 20-strong boyz mob, and lead them with Ard Boyz or distract your enemy with Tankbusta-armed Kommandos.

Now My ard Boys are gone, My Kommandos can't bust tanks anymore, my Looted Leman Russ gets shelved, and so on. I can still Try those things but Kommandos can't do nearly as much with 2 rokkit launchas as they could with 10 tankbusta bombs.

Lootas, Burnas, and Lootas recieve the Heavy weapons Ard Boys and Boyz mobs used to have. Why Would anyone really want them if you didnt the things they have from your mobs? Those mobs don't even have stickbombs or any "shield" guys in their mobs.

kdh88
29-08-2008, 15:21
Your shooting is better than an Imperial Guardsman? :eyebrows:
This is what I've encountered, at least.

For example, 6 Ork shootas is 12 shots, and you're going to hit with 4.
However, 6 Guardsmen is 6 shots, and they're going to hit with 3.

And please don't get me into the to-wound rolls...:(

That's because Imperial Guard is overcosted and underpowered. Really, if IG is your point of comparison, you're going to have to massively nerf every army other than the Inquisition and maybe the Kroot Mercs

pootleberry
29-08-2008, 17:50
I agree with the op. I play Orks and our gaming group have found them to be extremely effective. Blasts make a mess of them but a 3 strong killa kan screen seems to help this immensely. We still have fun though. I think it's frustrating for other players due to the cheapness of the basic ork boy: 6 points is cheap.

The codex isn't broken though just because they are difficult to beat. At the end of the day, if the Orks are infantry heavy (usually) and you've taken a highly mobile shooty army then you will be able to whittle them down.

McPherson
29-08-2008, 21:09
While Orks is my second army I dont find any problems playing against them here.

While I'll admit i'm about 1/2 of the regular ork players in the area the other guys who play them occassionally (borrowing my minis or using their own armies) have tried pretty much every ork tactic in the book and they all make for intense fun games.

I win some, I loose some, I enjoy ALL.

Thats what 40k should be about.

- McPherson

Griznak
30-08-2008, 22:50
I win about 60% of my games, and that number is quickly droping as people are geting used to fighting me. My nid buddy was singing the "orks can't be beat" tune till he figured out a roster that I can't seem to beat.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
30-08-2008, 23:12
I win about 60% of my games, and that number is quickly droping as people are geting used to fighting me. My nid buddy was singing the "orks can't be beat" tune till he figured out a roster that I can't seem to beat.

but orks cant be beaten in battle, if they win - they win, if they flee - they can fight another battle and if they die it doesnt matter.

seems like he's right.

Misanthrope
31-08-2008, 00:20
It's true that the most success I've had playing 40K has come with my Ork army but I wouldn't say they're overpowered. One thing they are is underestimated -- or atleast were, before people began getting used to them.

One thing that makes Orks very powerful is that it's a very, very flexible list, infact I'd have to say I have yet to see two duplicate lists. It's not like Tau which are basically one-trick ponies, or other armies with a limited number of viable variations -- with Orks, you can have dozens of different themes and styles and they're all still quite effective, which makes countering Orks so difficult -- they can beat you so many ways.

But this doesn't make them overpowered. It makes the Ork dex one of the best made, because it's managed to quite successfuly completely avoid the "one list to rule them all" syndrome which has plagued 40K for years.

Anyway, I love 'em, for their character, their style and the fun I get playing with them. And I always load up on lots of Shokk Attack Guns, Warpheads and anything else that has just as much a chance of sending half my army screaming into the maw of the warp than harm a fly, because it's just damned fun to obliterate some guy's 250pt souped-up daemon prince and then destroy everything within 6" of my Mek.