PDA

View Full Version : Female Power Armor



Col. Tartleton
20-08-2008, 18:21
Everyone Love Everyone!!! (thats the only rule I'm going to lay out for this)

Enough of the petty insults and cheap insinuations. This is not a discussion about the discussion of Female Space Marines. Its a discussion about the idea of Female Space Marines.

Now first of all, I don't think they need be called Space Marines as the Adeptus Astartes is firmly a fraternity (and I say that with all possible stereotypes of a fraternity.) However the idea of genetically upgraded power armored females is already in the game. SoB spring to minds as do arbites and inquisitors.

So the idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus or some other group has manufactured marine like females who are all but equal is entirely plausible (if not documented. (There were Female Space Marines, and there were Female Explorers in PA. They never outlawed the latter, which is what we're dealing with here.

First of all, the making of female marines need only be for fluff and art purposes as creating a female in a ton+ of alloy/ceramic reactive armor (which is actually silly as the marines are too curved to be of use for reactive armor. Only TDA makes any sense realistically as being reactive) is nearly impossible. Simply take some elf heads or something for the marines without helmets and then back it up with fluff. The marines are male only. No one said S**t about count as... if CSM can use marine rules (and I'm fine with it) then female heavy infantry can exist as well.

Now looking at it anatomically. A space marine is big for a human, but a 7'6" battle hardened super athlete is not a unkillable engine of destruction. A SM can probably bench 3X its body weight which would be over a thousand pounds. In armor they can bench a 18 wheeler and toss a car around like a barrel. A female marine would be proportionate: if she ways a few hundred (2-3 tops) thats like 6 hundred pounds of strength. Thats a lot less, but the PA will compensate and she'll still be able to bench 10 tons... its the armor not the marine where the strength lies. The marine is the incredible aim and reflexes and the ability to stop blood loss within seconds and go into a coma and spit acid. The armor is everything else. A mortal in PA of great skill could best a bloodclaw who has yet to finish his training is is still ws3 bs3.

zoodog
20-08-2008, 18:30
I see someone brought that up again lower in the forum, unfortunately it seems unlikely one reasonably well written argument will go very far in resolving something were people have such set views.

Lord Inquisitor
20-08-2008, 18:52
The armour doesn't add that much... most of the armour's strength goes into lifting its own weight. Going by the rules in Inquisitor, power armour only increases the wearer's strength by 20%.

Ultimately, the concept of genetically engineering females is not any more far fetched than males. Even with the "tied to male hormones" would be very easy to get around. Your "females" would be large and hairy, but nevertheless. There are plenty of reasons I can dream up why it might not be likely, but fundamentally it is not impossible. You've always got the old fall-back of "the missing primarchs were female!", although that's pretty much a cop out.

Whether such things actually exist in our fictional universe is another matter. Personally, it makes sense to me that GW should keep them male-orientated. That said, if you desperately want to make up a chapter of female SM, then more power to you.

At the end of the day, this hobby is model orientated. If you have female SM models, then clearly female SM exist, eh?

biggreengribbly
20-08-2008, 18:58
I must admit, I've been able to appreciate various pieces of nifty, if unfluffy monstrocities by simply blanking all implication what the writer/artist/modeller is in fact referring to is a Female Astartes Space Marine. It seems a shockingly hard thing for a lot of people to do, but I get by :angel:

Though on the wider topic of Female Power Armour as mentioned by your topic title, I'd like to see more cases of the aformentioned armour including some MKVIII style collars, because that unnecessarily indespensible cleavage is just a Bullet Trap and asking for a one way trip to a Ricochet grave. I mean if you're going to insist on sticking boobs on something, at least consider the practicalites folks. ;)

Wintermute
20-08-2008, 19:04
To ensure this thread does not devolve into a flame war or breaks any of WarSeer's Forum Rules or Posting Guidelines, I'll be monitoring it very closely. I've already changed the thread title to be less provocative.

Wintermute

MrBigMr
20-08-2008, 19:07
Actually, Inquisitor gives everyone in power armour the +20% boost. Or at least I've never found anything stating only Marines get the bonus.


Take a trained woman (WS4, BS4), put her into power armour (3+ Sv.), stack her up with bionics (like Iron Hands, T4) and arm her with an eldar chainsword (+1 Str.), dedicate her to Slaanesh (+1 Ini.) upgrade her to a veteran (Ld. 8) and tweak her with the Afriel Strain (ATSKNF). Bang, there's your Female Marine.

Fist of Crimson
20-08-2008, 19:12
I mean if you're going to insist on sticking boobs on something, at least consider the practicalites folks. ;)

Most warseer members are male. You are asking an awful lot of us to consider anything when boobs are involved!

If it was possible for me to consider such practicalities I would probably agree with you :)

Lord Inquisitor
20-08-2008, 19:13
Though on the wider topic of Female Power Armour as mentioned by your topic title, I'd like to see more cases of the aformentioned armour including some MKVIII style collars, because that unnecessarily indespensible cleavage is just a Bullet Trap and asking for a one way trip to a Ricochet grave. I mean if you're going to insist on sticking boobs on something, at least consider the practicalites folks. ;)
Oh that follows the anime Law of Probably Attire (http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm). They're actually tougher with their boobs exposed.

Ultimately, the whole point of female space marines is to make them look female, which at 28mm scale means exaggerating curves or making their secondary sexual characteristics abundantly obvious!

Sticking down a squad of unconverted space marines and saying "well, there's no real reason female armour should look any different" would be something of a let down!

Demrush
20-08-2008, 19:30
Ahh bloody hell will you give up on the "its male hormones, won't work with females". For your information, whether you are male or female you have the same genetic information...what does that mean? It means that if a dude has that band of DNA (gene) to make hormone X, technically the women has it too. Why can't the women make this hormone? Thats because the gene has been repressed (its still there...just bunched up together so that it cant be replicated). So I'm pretty sure that if they wanted to make super human space marinawomans, they could and easily at that. All you would need is to play around with a few key repressing and activating elements.

Personally, I don't think women spacemarines are a good idea but please..don't bring up the "hormones" argument unless you are knowledgeable about genetic. Just let the men do the fighting or anything related to war/supremecy/survival (thats all were good for ;)).

Nero
20-08-2008, 19:55
Women and men all possess the exact same hormones. They also possess all the same chromosomes - women have an additional backup, but they do not possess any genes (or alleles for that matter) that men don't, and vice versa.

It's common sense rearing it's ugly head. Common sense tells you that something that works on men might not work on women, because that makes sense, even though there's no scientific basis for it. Common sense also tells us that heavy objects should fall faster than light objects and that the world is flat because you can see the edge.

It's more likely the result of Imperial misinformation propagated by ignorance that we get 'Space Marines can't be women', than a hard-corded, canonical 'fact' (mostly because there are no canonical facts in 40k).

StarshipBOb
20-08-2008, 19:57
Ahh bloody hell will you give up on the "its male hormones, won't work with females". For your information, whether you are male or female you have the same genetic information...what does that mean? It means that if a dude has that band of DNA (gene) to make hormone X, technically the women has it too. Why can't the women make this hormone? Thats because the gene has been repressed (its still there...just bunched up together so that it cant be replicated). So I'm pretty sure that if they wanted to make super human space marinawomans, they could and easily at that. All you would need is to play around with a few key repressing and activating elements.


Not quite. It's due to men having testicles and women having ovaries; the previous makes testosterone the latter makes estrogen and progestogens. If a female takes male hormones, feedback responses in the brain/pituatary tell that their is something wrong and mitigates the effect.

Nero
20-08-2008, 20:19
Not quite. It's due to men having testicles and women having ovaries; the previous makes testosterone the latter makes estrogen and progestogens. If a female takes male hormones, feedback responses in the brain/pituatary tell that their is something wrong and mitigates the effect.

Sorry, but that's wrong. Ovaries produce testosterone and testes produce estrogen. There is more testosterone in men (obviously), and vice versa, but neither sex lacks the hormone entirely.

Sekhmet
20-08-2008, 20:33
Here's a good example - look at the olympics. How many female athletes have large breasts?

Hm... none unless they play tennis (strange, isn't it?).

A female in power armor should look no different than a male, just as you can't tell female cadians or kasrkin apart from males.

theunwantedbeing
20-08-2008, 20:46
Fluff for female space marines could easily be that the world(s) that the chapter recruit from have a very small proportion of men compared to women, eg 15 women to every 1 man born.
This on a fairly small tribe would result in very few male candidates being available for recruit, so the chapter may have been forced to recruit girls rather than boys.

As for them turning into astartes. Well, untill they hit puberty boys and girls are physically the same in abilities and such (or near enough at any rate) so that when the process begins they aren't caused any problems in becoming a space marine (although the process may be a little trickier).

The end result would be an astartes, 7-8ft tall hulking slab of muscle made for combat. Stick armour on them and they would look identical.

Although it's a little dull saying "oh some of them are girls, but they all look the same".

To make a space marine look more femenine you'll have to accentuate the hips a bit, the easy way would be to slightly trim the leg towards the knee join, thus giving the appearence of wider hips.
As for the chest thing, well just move the arm's backs a fraction and raise the angle of the chest. The difference would only be subtle but it would make a difference in the appearence of the marine, from a miniature standpoint at least (even though fluffwise it's a bit pointless as they wouldn't look different).

So ruleswiese, they're just normal marines.
Modelwise, the female ones just look that little bit more femenine.(although nothing overly spectacular like massive breasts, or sculpted armour).

Lord Inquisitor
20-08-2008, 21:03
Ahh bloody hell will you give up on the "its male hormones, won't work with females".
:wtf: I did say that it was easy to get around.


It means that if a dude has that band of DNA (gene) to make hormone X, technically the women has it too. Why can't the women make this hormone? Thats because the gene has been repressed (its still there...just bunched up together so that it cant be replicated). So I'm pretty sure that if they wanted to make super human space marinawomans, they could and easily at that. All you would need is to play around with a few key repressing and activating elements.
Ha... Nothing wrong with what you're saying, just that I'm doing my PhD in molecular genetics... Not had things explained to me like that in quite some time! :D


A female in power armor should look no different than a male, just as you can't tell female cadians or kasrkin apart from males.
Which really goes against the "rule of cool," doesn't it? I'm sure there's an anime law about improbably large breasts...


The end result would be an astartes, 7-8ft tall hulking slab of muscle made for combat. Stick armour on them and they would look identical.
And rather circumvents most people's reason for doing it...


To make a space marine look more femenine you'll have to accentuate the hips a bit, the easy way would be to slightly trim the leg towards the knee join, thus giving the appearence of wider hips.
As for the chest thing, well just move the arm's backs a fraction and raise the angle of the chest. The difference would only be subtle but it would make a difference in the appearence of the marine, from a miniature standpoint at least (even though fluffwise it's a bit pointless as they wouldn't look different).
Seen this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img465e646bcd50b.jpg)?

StarshipBOb
20-08-2008, 21:30
Sorry, but that's wrong. Ovaries produce testosterone and testes produce estrogen. There is more testosterone in men (obviously), and vice versa, but neither sex lacks the hormone entirely.

Don't forget the adrenal glands which produce both, but that wasn't the point. My statement was poorly worded, but the fact remains that if a female wishes to become a space marine, they'd have to receive supplemental hormone treatement and either remove their ovaries or suppress certain aspects of the pituatary gland from working. While not impossible, it's something that hasn't been done due to any number of reasons.That said, this is starting to meander off topic and I won't comment on it anymore.

On topic, I think my avatar of a person in Fallout 2 advanced power armor is a good showing on how female based astartes armour would look like. A mid cleft in the breastplate and a relatively narrow waist are definite signs of feminity.

madd0ct0r
20-08-2008, 21:37
Here's a good example - look at the olympics. How many female athletes have large breasts?

Hm... none unless they play tennis (strange, isn't it?).

A female in power armor should look no different than a male, just as you can't tell female cadians or kasrkin apart from males.

My girlfriend would like to point out the tennis girls have very unevenly developed breasts. She thinks this may extrapolate to FemMarines who always use their chainsword in the same hand.

I'm saying nothing.

MrBigMr
20-08-2008, 22:29
Common sense tells you that something that works on men might not work on women, because that makes sense, even though there's no scientific basis for it.
I could go into some detailed info on sex change operations, but I better not as long as The Man is watching. I guess it's ok to at least tell you that it's 3 times more expensive to turn from a woman into a man, than vise versa.


Here's a good example - look at the olympics. How many female athletes have large breasts?
How many women have large breasts at all?

But seriously, it's really about body fat. Does it say that Marines don't store it at all? I mean, they're forced to work maybe weeks on end without food, so having stored bodily energy would be nice. Athletes need to be as fat free as possible, since they're athletes and not soldiers. An athlete wouldn't survive such enduring tests as military as well as a normal fit person who stores fat and can stretch the his endurance more than few seconds of action that the atheletes are mostly trained for. At least the guys in the army that I knew, that had sports background such as sprinters could do well on the physical tests, but not so well on the actual field conditions, where as fit guys or people with backgrounds in the fields of security or rescue could push well beyond that.

Yes, bulking up reduces breast size, but the women that were in the army didn't all have big knockers, but that didn't stop them from complaining about how their kevlars were uncomfortable. And that's a flexible material. Imagine pressing your breasts flat against your chest with a sheet of metal. Even small ones will feel the force of it. This would mean that there would have to be some room inside there. Which would lead to the armour being thinner and as a result the armour would have to be expainded outwards. Or that's just my silly conclusion of the idea.

Also, since women can't posses equal muscle mass to men without anabolic steroids (and I do think that the gene-seeds merely boost the body's natural hormonal secretion, rather than take it over themselves) the women wouldn't actually bulk up as much as the males and would lead possible to a slightly slimmer armour. Also the hips would need to be wider and the shoulders narrower.

I mean, the Sister armour is suppose to be based on the SM armour, and it's quite a lot slimmer than the bulky Marine one, yet offers the same protection. And it's said by some that the breast cups are more of a decorative than practical thing. Naturally the Sister armour is slimmer as it's for leetle goorls (bad attempt at an Austrian accent) and not big bulky men. But as female SM would not reach the bulkiness of the men, they would still be slimmer. At least to some strange logic in my head. Of course there's the "one size fits all" army mentality, but the SM are the best of the best and have hand crafted gear and all that, so it's not above them to have fine, personalised gear.


A female in power armor should look no different than a male, just as you can't tell female cadians or kasrkin apart from males.
And what do you have to give us as a basis for this argument?


Seen this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img465e646bcd50b.jpg)?
How about the real deal:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatc/SF/whatm/GW/id/169720
http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatc/SF/whatm/GW/id/169721

Lord Inquisitor
20-08-2008, 22:43
Heh, I was going to link to the same models (http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt601adventurers.htm) but decided I liked the 200mm one better... However, these are noted as being "Female Warriors", I'm not 100% sure they're actually Female Space Marines.

As for Sisters power armour, the first and most obvious thing is that they're 28mm models and therefore their feminity is exaggerated and any real considerations about armour and breasts is entirely superflous. Anyway, the Sororitas armour is definately inferior to the Astartes, it isn't quite as tough (~25% less protection to the main areas compared with the bulky Astartes chestplate, pauldrons and greaves, ref: Inquisitor), and doesn't provide the strength bonus (ref: Codex Witch Hunters).

The last thing is that the armour need not be entirely functional. If a female Space Marine chapter really existed, they might indeed accentuate their femininity. They might have hairy chests, but their armour may still be curvey purely for asthetic reasons. So if you want curvey female SMs, all this talk of comparative physiology need not be a factor.

PondaNagura
20-08-2008, 23:06
i'd imagine the shoulders to be less wide like a male marines...not so body-hugging, and yeah, no bronze-boobs.
wait didn't someone make a female in power armor out of GS, eldar, marine bits awhile ago on this forum.

as for the geneseed thing, i'd imagine it's much more adequate to implant organs into a steady-growing body such as a puberty-stricken male, than a female whose body chemistry is in constant fluctuation from puberty onwards; granted women whose estrogen levels decrease and testosterone increase lose their MS cycle...

Sekhmet
21-08-2008, 00:31
But seriously, it's really about body fat. Does it say that Marines don't store it at all? I mean, they're forced to work maybe weeks on end without food, so having stored bodily energy would be nice. Athletes need to be as fat free as possible, since they're athletes and not soldiers. An athlete wouldn't survive such enduring tests as military as well as a normal fit person who stores fat and can stretch the his endurance more than few seconds of action that the atheletes are mostly trained for. At least the guys in the army that I knew, that had sports background such as sprinters could do well on the physical tests, but not so well on the actual field conditions, where as fit guys or people with backgrounds in the fields of security or rescue could push well beyond that.

Actually I don't know if Marines have to go weeks on end without food. I think their armor actually stores lots of nutrients. Anyway, Marines aren't supposed to be away from their bases for more than a week or two - they're a strike force, they hit hard and get out. Space Marines are not army.



Yes, bulking up reduces breast size, but the women that were in the army didn't all have big knockers, but that didn't stop them from complaining about how their kevlars were uncomfortable. And that's a flexible material. Imagine pressing your breasts flat against your chest with a sheet of metal. Even small ones will feel the force of it. This would mean that there would have to be some room inside there. Which would lead to the armour being thinner and as a result the armour would have to be expainded outwards. Or that's just my silly conclusion of the idea.

Being in the Army hardly qualifies you for being the most physically fit or strongest person in the world. It only means you can run 2 miles in something like 19 minutes if you're female, can do a bunch of pushups in 2 minutes and a bunch of situps in 2 minutes. Most people who are in shape can do that. Regular humans are NOT astartes.



Also, since women can't posses equal muscle mass to men without anabolic steroids (and I do think that the gene-seeds merely boost the body's natural hormonal secretion, rather than take it over themselves) the women wouldn't actually bulk up as much as the males and would lead possible to a slightly slimmer armour. Also the hips would need to be wider and the shoulders narrower.

Why wouldn't you genetically engineer the women to be just as strong as the men? That's the ENTIRE POINT of a Space Marine - to be the best of the best and then some. If Females made weaker Space Marines, they simply wouldn't be used. :rolleyes: So I'm assuming they'd make equal Space Marines, because otherwise this whole debate is stupid.



I mean, the Sister armour is suppose to be based on the SM armour, and it's quite a lot slimmer than the bulky Marine one, yet offers the same protection. And it's said by some that the breast cups are more of a decorative than practical thing. Naturally the Sister armour is slimmer as it's for leetle goorls (bad attempt at an Austrian accent) and not big bulky men. But as female SM would not reach the bulkiness of the men, they would still be slimmer. At least to some strange logic in my head. Of course there's the "one size fits all" army mentality, but the SM are the best of the best and have hand crafted gear and all that, so it's not above them to have fine, personalised gear.

Sisters aren't genetically enhanced and 40k table top is highly simplified - in a more detailed system, I don't think they'd offer the same protection. I mean, they don't even wear helmets and they get a 3+ save.

Adra
21-08-2008, 00:36
I said it before and ill say it again. Dont see many Brothers of Battle convertions do you? Dont see many converted Male Howling Banshees? Dont see many converted Man-Wyches?

No, all we get is people putting boobs on things. And people say to me that 40k is immature......dear oh dear oh dear.


Sorry anyway on topic. I dont think there is much of an issue with the size and relative shape of power armour in relation to the female form. I think only minor adaptions would account for body shape and as pointed out the armour basicaly carries itself when active.

straightsilver21
21-08-2008, 01:25
ummmm, this post is exactly identical to the other one.

why do we need two posts effectively on the same thing?

Nazguire
21-08-2008, 02:32
Sisters aren't genetically enhanced and 40k table top is highly simplified - in a more detailed system, I don't think they'd offer the same protection. I mean, they don't even wear helmets and they get a 3+ save.

Just to be a nitpicking bastard, but Sisters of Battle wear helmets.:p

Malevon
21-08-2008, 04:12
Just to be a nitpicking bastard, but Sisters of Battle wear helmets.:p
Only half of them.

Hellebore
21-08-2008, 04:35
I said it before and ill say it again. Dont see many Brothers of Battle convertions do you? Dont see many converted Male Howling Banshees? Dont see many converted Man-Wyches?


Actually, there are already several male wych models. They don't follow the same fluff that the witch elves follow, so both male and female dark eldar exist in the wych cults.


If nothing else, female power armour would not have cleavage. It directs shots/hits INTO the chest through riccochet (hence why breasplates tend to be curved to deflect AWAY from the chest). All you need to do is push the cleavage outward and you've got the same chestplate that men wear and one that won't get you killed.


Hellebore

Foolish Mortal
21-08-2008, 08:23
Just to throw in a thought here, but if we're assuming that female marines are identicle to male marines, then isn't it possible that during the implantation of the black carapace, that the breasts could be removed to either make implantation easier, or as they may be considered unnecessary and/or a hinderance?

Also fluff wise I don't see the problem with femal marines - It's already been stated that the 40K universe is huge - anything can happen. I particularly like the idea a few posts ago about a world where perhaps women are more abundant than men, so they get recruited.

Another idea could be that some Imperial/admech guy stumbles across some lost/forbidden/secret text that suggests that females would actually make better marines than males, but this idea was outlawed as heretical.

pookie
21-08-2008, 10:02
Only half of them.

and whats the point in half a helmet :D :angel:

Hrw-Amen
21-08-2008, 12:03
Back in the very olden days GW did make something called a 'Sister Space Marine.' I have one, it is what it was called when I bought it. Although it is considerably slimmer than even a SOB and in a more figure hugging set of power armour without a helmet. It has a close combat weapon and a bolter. I think they only made the one model and later on they changed the name of it and it became just some random female explorer or adventurer or something. But nonetheless it shows that when 40K was first being marketed they were at least considered a possibility even if it was never developed.

jfrazell
21-08-2008, 12:38
Once you start bio surgery and genetic playing, the current general restrictions on size go out the window. There’s no reason for female space marines to be any different in size or muscle mass. They’re not really human at this point so human restrictions are eliminated.

As for the armor itself, there should be no difficulty there either. The armor is made for hulking gorillas. Its irrelevant if the chest size is a couple of inches greater when you have a chest size of 100 or whatever. Indeed as we have seen the nuns with guns have a form of power armor and it is also used by inquisitors, higher ups, and people with cash in the imperium.

Col. Tartleton
21-08-2008, 12:53
ummmm, this post is exactly identical to the other one.

why do we need two posts effectively on the same thing?

Well the other one got closed. On top of that I never got to post on it :D

But to be honest the other one quickly slid downhill into a bunch of personal ego bashing and deviated from what can only be called "the greatest debate in 40k." This one is intended to be civil; read "EVERYONE LOVE EVERYONE" aka show respect and take things lightly.

Somehow the idea of a female super soldier is hated by a bunch of pubescent sci-fi war gamers...


I said it before and ill say it again. Dont see many Brothers of Battle convertions do you? Dont see many converted Male Howling Banshees? Dont see many converted Man-Wyches?

No, all we get is people putting boobs on things. And people say to me that 40k is immature......dear oh dear oh dear.

I was going to try to make Brothers of Battle, but it was very consuming and I decided to put it off in favor of IG... ( I could have just used regular marines and said that they scaled right and say marines should be a lot bigger. But thats lazy and not cool.]

MrBigMr
21-08-2008, 13:27
Actually I don't know if Marines have to go weeks on end without food. I think their armor actually stores lots of nutrients. Anyway, Marines aren't supposed to be away from their bases for more than a week or two - they're a strike force, they hit hard and get out. Space Marines are not army.
In ye olden days they took over the whole galaxy. They're able to consume pretty much anything, etc. They might today do hit & run attacks, but back in the day they were the premium in front line forces. Right? It's not like they have recoded the gene-seeds to fit new purposes after that.


Being in the Army hardly qualifies you for being the most physically fit or strongest person in the world. It only means you can run 2 miles in something like 19 minutes if you're female, can do a bunch of pushups in 2 minutes and a bunch of situps in 2 minutes. Most people who are in shape can do that. Regular humans are NOT astartes.
That is not what I said. What I'm saying is that athletes are not soldiers.


Why wouldn't you genetically engineer the women to be just as strong as the men? That's the ENTIRE POINT of a Space Marine - to be the best of the best and then some. If Females made weaker Space Marines, they simply wouldn't be used. :rolleyes: So I'm assuming they'd make equal Space Marines, because otherwise this whole debate is stupid.
I give up. When I try to make women equal to men I'm a PC whore and when I don't do it, I'm a God damn woman hater...

I'm just saying that unless they do push the boundaries of female testosterone secretion (assuming the gene-seeds merely enhance the natural function and not produce it their own), they wouldn't end up on the same level, as a woman's body doesn't produce the same amounts. At least that's what I've read up. Testosteron is one of the things that regulate muscle build up and due to lower amounts of it, women don't bulk up that fast. It's not uncommon for female bodybuilders to use steroids.

So if gene-seeds up the production of testosterone the same amount on both male and female bodies, they wouldn't end up on the same level. Doen't mean women automaticly make poorer Marines just like normal women don't automaticly make poorer soldiers.

If we look at a Space Marine without armour:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/images/art-05.jpg
We can see that he's not the Hulk, but a really muscular, fit man. Seeing what some people thing female Marines should look, male Marines should look like mountains of pure muscle mass. They don't. So I somehow don't see if the same process would turn a woman into an East German athlete.


Sisters aren't genetically enhanced and 40k table top is highly simplified - in a more detailed system, I don't think they'd offer the same protection. I mean, they don't even wear helmets and they get a 3+ save.
Inquisitor offer the same protection. Helmets are seperrate items and don't count into it. The armour also offers the same boost to the strength of the user, but naturally 20% of 200 is more than 20% of 50. And if I remember correctly, the Sister fluff only mentions that their armour lacks some of the finer functions like life support, but nowhere do I remember it being said it offers less protection than the SM one.


I said it before and ill say it again. Dont see many Brothers of Battle convertions do you?
You mean the Frateris Templar? Could be because they were disbanded before the creation of the Sisters and not everyone knows of them.


Dont see many converted Male Howling Banshees?
I've seen my fare share. Not everyone likes one sided models.


No, all we get is people putting boobs on things.
One reason might be the fact that GW doesn't do many female models to begin with, a fact that even women have put up. If you look at many other makers, they have great deals of women in the mix so no need to start making your own (Starship Troopers for example). If we had female models stock, no one would bitch about people having females in their armies. Hell, when is the last time you've looked at an Eldar army and though "wow, what a loser for having boobs on his minies"? But dear God if we make them ourselves...

On the other hand, could this demand for female models actually echo of a deeper social change, where the gap between man and woman is closing and it's coming more about 'people' than 'M' & 'F'? Something that's brewing within the subconscioussness of people? So naturally the demand for balance (women do make up half the population, you know) is one of the things that such change would bring.

And since you're so keen on only seeing the breasts, how about these:
Male Shadowsun:
http://z11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progress/index.php?showtopic=11219
Male daemonette:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatm/GW/id/162729


Just to throw in a thought here, but if we're assuming that female marines are identicle to male marines, then isn't it possible that during the implantation of the black carapace, that the breasts could be removed to either make implantation easier
Don't know. There's not real information on how they're implanted. I doubt they skin the marine and slap the sheets on there. Even breast implants need only a small cut to go in. No need to hack the whole thing off in order to fill them. But like I said, who knows.


or as they may be considered unnecessary and/or a hinderance?
They don't remove a Marine's naughty bits even though they have no real use for them.

Col. Tartleton
21-08-2008, 13:45
I'm almost certain the black carapace is subdermal and is only visable as a bunch of jacks for connection to the suit that poke out of the skin...

I don't think thats the black carapace. After all, the ribcage is rebuilt in order to install the carapace, a feat that wouldn't be needed if it clipped on over the body. Thats like a underlayer of the armor that interfaces the black carapace and the PA or its a a training suit that reads the carapace.

madd0ct0r
21-08-2008, 15:54
But it could be that the black carapace is tattoed on (for want of a better word).

Either that or small plugs are inserted and the black carapace grows between them.

The ribcage needs to be opened to lay the senors that monitior vital signs.

][nquist0r
21-08-2008, 16:20
Anything can be justified in 40k. A captain, apothocary, and several tech marines leave a field of battle with geneseeds, and the power armor of the fallen, only to be stranded in a warp storm! * Oh Noes!* They find themselves on an uncharted jungle planet where society is Amazonian. They find the men there unsuitable for geneseed implantation, and needing to protect the geneseeds before they spoil do the unthinkable... Dun Dun Dun! Now elaborate and enjoy your female space marines. Not all Space Marines have every implant either, they get what the chapter has at the time.

Sekhmet
21-08-2008, 18:53
Basically, MrBigMr, the point is that a female space marine would be inferior to a male one without a lot of extra work. If you don't remove/reduce the breasts, you'll have either heavier armor with equal protection (because it's larger), or similar armor with lesser protection. If you don't enhance their muscles to what the other Astartes can do, then you simply have an inferior marine. There would be no advantage whatsoever to making a female one.

So a planet has more females than males? Find a new planet. There are millions of planets from which Chapters can choose as their home world. Ba'al Secundis is sparcely populated - it consists of nomadic tribes without cities to speak of, yet it was the homeworld of a first founding LEGION. Besides, if a planet is producing offspring that is heavily biased towards females, the planet is probably tainted with disease or Chaos. There's definitely external forces involved and you won't want to deal with that.


So in the end, you either end up with females that look like males in most ways or you get an inferior chapter. As the Astartes are all about the best of the best, I reject the later as an option. Thus you get females with heavy genetic manipulation to make them just as strong and fast as males. But why not use a male in the first place, it will save you a lot of time and effort. Oops, there's the hole in your argument.


Edit: MrBigMr - the point about helmets was that you can't use in-game stats to reflect the potency of armor. Inquisitor power armor is paper thin, Sororitas power armor at least 50% of the time comes without a helmet and has massive cleavage, and Astartes power armor seems to be 6" thick on all sides, yet they all give the same armor save. That doesn't matter, the game is an abstraction. Don't ever use in-game rules to justify fluff... it just doesn't work.

Lord Inquisitor
21-08-2008, 19:00
Haha... I'm loving this thread. Highlights are the feminist standpoint and the fundamentalist naysayers.

I've never been interested in female Space Marines before but I'm very tempted to do a female Emperor's Child for fun and to annoy people with... Even better as I can use the "'cause it's Chaos!" excuse...

Just to drag off-topic, this was kind of interesting:

Actually I don't know if Marines have to go weeks on end without food. I think their armor actually stores lots of nutrients. Anyway, Marines aren't supposed to be away from their bases for more than a week or two - they're a strike force, they hit hard and get out. Space Marines are not army.
Marines are able to act as guerilla fighters if necessary. While they do normally fight quick engagements, they are meant to be able to fight alone and unsupported for weeks. Their armour/webbing does include rations, but the insinuation was that they're able to continue for considerable time without food. Now, given that they are known to not store fat and that all that "hyper-dense" muscle is going to demand a very high calorie intake even when inactive suggests that they must have some reserves (an interesting side note, one of the more recent theories is that the Neanderthals were just as smart as us, larger and much stronger to boot but died out because when times got hard they weren't able to get enough calories to feed all that muscle - we outcompeted them by sole virtue of being "wimpier").

So maybe SMs have some cunning fat reserves somewhere or they're able to draw energy reserves from somewhere (breaking down muscle?). Or maybe they really do need an awful lot of food. Note that the Space Marine has a huge array of organs designed to prevent poisoning, particularly from ingestion. The oolitic kidney is for general detoxification, but the preomnor grants additional protection from ingested poisons, while the neuroglottis allows him to detect poisions by taste. I always wondered why they would spend so much effort immunising the Marines against ingested poisions given that they're sent into battle in fully enclosed suits with incredible supply support. Perhaps it is because after a short period of time away from supplies, the Marine is going to need to eat to fuel all that muscle.

Or maybe we're thinking way too much about this? ;)

Sekhmet
21-08-2008, 19:10
Haha... I'm loving this thread. Highlights are the feminist standpoint and the fundamentalist naysayers.

I've never been interested in female Space Marines before but I'm very tempted to do a female Emperor's Child for fun and to annoy people with... Even better as I can use the "'cause it's Chaos!" excuse...

That's cool. I think it's perfectly fluffy for a marine to start male then be transformed by chaos or some other method... but I totally disagree with starting as female... I haven't heard any good fluff reasons why the Imperium would ever intentionally make female space marines.

If you want to model them, all the power to you, no one's going to stop you from GSing to your heart's content. But don't try to give it a fluff explanation unless they were stuck in the warp and tormented by tzeentch/slaanesh for years.

Denise
21-08-2008, 19:24
Maybe I have missed something somewhere along the line.... but why in the world is there a new thread about this every couple of days? Weren't the sisters of battle literaly made for this? Why try to invent fluff for space marine females when it exists seperately? Why try to create new female space marine models when they exist already? Games Wkshop made the models and fluff most likely because people keep trying to do this. This way space marines keep their cool masculinity while the stranger crowd who wants to play with little plastic models with breasts.... can have the sisters of battle(I kinda feel sorry for the models)

For people who just can't stand the idea of actual astartes who aren't female: I know that you can somehow reason it out that somewhere in the universe its possible and that biologically, or mentally females are somehow better and/or equal in combat, but no, astartes were never ever really meant to be female. Ten seconds looking at their fluff and pictures can tell you that much. Games Workshop realized this apparent shortcoming, though, and made the sisters of battle for you, please stick to them.

Lord Inquisitor
21-08-2008, 19:30
Alright, I'll give this a crack, just as an intellectual exercise:

- Chapter discovers that their gene-seed has dengenerated and supplicants are hormonally imbalanced, resulting in mental fluctuations, degenerating into testosterone-fuelled homicidal rages before catastrophic organ failure. All attempts to solve this failed, until in total desperation the apothecaries tried implantation into a female. Miraculously, she survived (her lower initial hormone levels countering the seed's malfunction) and the precious gene-seed is retained. The Chapter started recruiting exclusively females as the alternative was destruction.
- The two missing primarchs were female and their nature hence purged by the misogynic imperium. The remnants of their Legions persist to this day.
- The Adeptus Mechanicus have been experimenting with polymorphine-enhanced Astartes. Female supplicants are far superior. Their slighter build can be more than compensated for by the extensive body resculpting and organ integration afforded by the polymorphine.

Frecus
21-08-2008, 19:36
Guys, you need to check these two out:
#1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Frecus/Girls/Hecate.jpg)
#2 (http://warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43766&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1218464259)

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwrrior

Gdolkin
21-08-2008, 19:38
I've nothing relevant to add, but I'd just like to say well done Warseer for getting to two whole pages of this topic without getting into excessively childish and nasty tones this time, it's refreshing :) It's a potentially interesting topic for those who are open to it, and if one isn't and only wishes to say so, one maybe shouldn't post, n'est-ce pas.. Peace and love and rationality.
And Sekhmet, I love your sig. The Blood God is also an equal opportunities employer.

PondaNagura
21-08-2008, 19:43
this is also assuming the admech/marine forces even have the know how of implanting organs properly in the female form; the art of astartes making is finicky as is. i doubt every chapter apothecary knows exactly how every bit connects with every bit, much like how not every admech magos knows what the big red button does in the titan reactor core [there probably isn't one, i just needed a comparison].

actually you probably wouldn't need to re-sculpt the woman's body as much for support the new organs, since they are already built to support another smaller set of organs naturally...granted that just switches the emphasis from the chest to the abs, and next thing you know you have potbellied plague-marine-like soldiers [joking]

StarshipBOb
21-08-2008, 19:50
Guys, you need to check these two out:
#1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Frecus/Girls/Hecate.jpg)
#2 (http://warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43766&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1218464259)

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwrrior

I see your offer and suggest this:

link (http://hontouni.com/souomou/2007/03/19/warharuhi-40000)

Sekhmet
21-08-2008, 19:55
Alright, I'll give this a crack, just as an intellectual exercise:

- Chapter discovers that their gene-seed has dengenerated and supplicants are hormonally imbalanced, resulting in mental fluctuations, degenerating into testosterone-fuelled homicidal rages before catastrophic organ failure. All attempts to solve this failed, until in total desperation the apothecaries tried implantation into a female. Miraculously, she survived (her lower initial hormone levels countering the seed's malfunction) and the precious gene-seed is retained. The Chapter started recruiting exclusively females as the alternative was destruction.
- The two missing primarchs were female and their nature hence purged by the misogynic imperium. The remnants of their Legions persist to this day.
- The Adeptus Mechanicus have been experimenting with polymorphine-enhanced Astartes. Female supplicants are far superior. Their slighter build can be more than compensated for by the extensive body resculpting and organ integration afforded by the polymorphine.

Well #1 would make sense in the modern day. But looking at it from the Imperium's perspective - they'd have to eternally keep their helmets on, or they'd basically be purged by the Imperium for blatant abandonment of the Codex. And I'm sure their problems with the gene-seed would be attributed to corruption very quickly and thus be exterminated anyway.

#2 I can't really comment on. Two legions that were exterminated 10,000 years ago yet still survive by passing the geneseed on, yet aren't accounted for in any Imperial record. If they did survive, they'd probably use standard power armor and use the fact that no one knows all the chapters to their advantage.

#3 That's interesting. If polymorphine wasn't basically expensive and rare and its entire supply wasn't devoted to the Callidus temple (who are also genetically enhanced and such), that'd be interesting. But after using polymorphine that much, they wouldn't really be female, as they could take any sex and most races. But the thing is, polymorphine would be extremely limited in usefulness to an Astartes chapter... the Callidus temple would be far better off with it. But I can imagine a planet where the primary ingredient(s) of polymorphine naturally occur and permeate all the food and drinking water (like spice on Arrakis), such that all females and few males can inherently shape shift without extra doses of the drug. They'd probably do it far less frequently, but think of how easy it would be to implant a geneseed into a person who's basically a shapeshifter!

Frecus
21-08-2008, 19:55
ROFLOL!

*Must... Resist... Drawing... Image of Godess Empress of Womankind!*

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Lord Inquisitor
21-08-2008, 20:10
There is quite a bit of female SM art out there. This (http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg) is my favourite, as implausible as it may be. This (http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs9/i/2006/004/5/a/Repairs_or_Gene_seed_stuff_up_by_sorrowking.jpg)is also quite nice. Skull-boobs (http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/057/f/2/Salamander_Space_Marine_by_kaaskop.jpg) here is a bit more :wtf:. And this one (http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs17/i/2007/223/1/4/Maria_Octavia_by_Greymark.jpg)is pretty good too, it shows a female in basically normal Astartes armour (a little more curvey around the hips, really, compared with a normal Marine).


Well #1 would make sense in the modern day. But looking at it from the Imperium's perspective - they'd have to eternally keep their helmets on, or they'd basically be purged by the Imperium for blatant abandonment of the Codex. And I'm sure their problems with the gene-seed would be attributed to corruption very quickly and thus be exterminated anyway.
Well, it's hardly impossible. There are Chapters out there that conceal secrets far more serious than having two X chromosomes. Besides, it wouldn't be entirely out-of-character for them to keep their helmets on. Not to mention there might be some males retained who can act as the face of the Chapter (particularly if this has happened recently, the higher echelons and veterans are probably still male). This is only a problem if they're obviously female - are you going to tell that 8-foot superhuman with a power fist that he looks a bit like a girl? Assuming anyone would even notice (the "Mulan" principle).


#2 I can't really comment on. Two legions that were exterminated 10,000 years ago yet still survive by passing the geneseed on, yet aren't accounted for in any Imperial record. If they did survive, they'd probably use standard power armor and use the fact that no one knows all the chapters to their advantage.
Quite possibly. This one is the most of a cop out (anything involving the "missing primarchs" smacks of cheese to me).


#3 That's interesting. If polymorphine wasn't basically expensive and rare and its entire supply wasn't devoted to the Callidus temple (who are also genetically enhanced and such), that'd be interesting. But after using polymorphine that much, they wouldn't really be female, as they could take any sex and most races.
What I'm suggesting is not a Chapter of shapeshifters. Unlike the Calidus, who use the drug regularly, the Chapter would use it only once (or one regime) during implantation to make a permanent change to physiology. Sure, they might not look like females any more, but then again for whatever reason they wanted to accenuate the femninity, that might account for how they can possibly be as physically powerful as Space Marines without looking like Russian swimmers.


But I can imagine a planet where the primary ingredient(s) of polymorphine naturally occur and permeate all the food and drinking water (like spice on Arrakis), such that all females and few males can inherently shape shift without extra doses of the drug. They'd probably do it far less frequently, but think of how easy it would be to implant a geneseed into a person who's basically a shapeshifter!
Nice idea! Never mind female space marines, that would be a cool idea all of it's own (imagine, shape-shifting imperial guard or inquisitorial agents...)

Sekhmet
21-08-2008, 20:28
There is quite a bit of female SM art out there. This (http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg) is my favourite, as implausible as it may be. This (http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs9/i/2006/004/5/a/Repairs_or_Gene_seed_stuff_up_by_sorrowking.jpg)is also quite nice. Skull-boobs (http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/057/f/2/Salamander_Space_Marine_by_kaaskop.jpg) here is a bit more :wtf:. And this one (http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs17/i/2007/223/1/4/Maria_Octavia_by_Greymark.jpg)is pretty good too, it shows a female in basically normal Astartes armour (a little more curvey around the hips, really, compared with a normal Marine).


I've seen all of those before... somewhere that I can't really talk about due to the first two rules.

I have more if you'd want to see them. :p

Lord Inquisitor
21-08-2008, 20:34
That sounds intuiguing... care to PM me a link?

Fulgrim's Gimp
21-08-2008, 21:17
Wasn't the whole point of marine enhancement not hormone based but dependant on the Y chromosome? So if you make female marines they would be XXY not XX and have a phenotype like Klinefelter's syndrome?I.e not entirely female and the idea of gender being limited to male or female becoming redundant. Similarly male marines would be XYY.

MrBigMr
21-08-2008, 21:54
Oops, there's the hole in your argument.
Well, lets plug it then, shall we?

By pure biological stand point, men have potential for greater muscle mass and such than women. Not every single man is stronger and fitter than all the women in the world. You said it yourself:

the Astartes are all about the best of the best
So if you have a chick that's good enough, maybe even better than you're average male SM recruit, why should you pass her over? I don't think anyone is claiming that in the Guard the ration of all men and women is 50-50. There's more men, but a good amount of women are sure to fill the ranks as well.

So, women don't have the potential for the same muscle mass as men, but that does mean that some women can't extend to the same amounts as the men. And I never said the options are manly Femarines or feminin boob Marines. Only if the SM have very low body fat, would the boobs become smaller. And even then it's not ultimate. Some have big boobs no matter what.


As for the last bit you're asking me, why have such things, why have "inferior" Marines and have them in places that don't have much men when you can always find a place that does? How do I know?

Might as well ask wouldn't painting armour with camo colours, taking off all the bling not only shines but rattles around in dark and giving them more training in stealth tactics would make them far more effective? Wouldn't it be better if they actually had proper medical process and sanitary equipment during the implantation rather than stupid arcane rituals and instruments not cleaned in few millenia. There would actually be more recruits actually surviving further on. Wouldn't it be better if the Marines tried other tactics than assault or shock assault?


See, it's not all just about taking the best of the best and slapping them with organs, but they organs have to be compitable with the host like any organ and the target has to pass dozens of other tests as well. If they were to take women into count, they would effectively double their potential recruits.

Even if a woman wouldn't be "as good" as a male Marine, she would be far better than anything else. It's not just muscle mass that makes Marines what they are. And even then it's only upper body muscle mass. Women do not lack lower body muscle mass as much as upper body mass, so they are able to keep up with the men, even if they can't punch that hard. Bolter shell flies as fast from both Marines and a chainsword cuts flesh as easily. A chainsaw doesn't dig into a tree any better no matter how hard you press it there (at least I've never managed in it when I've been cutting them down, you just let the saw do its job). Only time when the relative difference in the muscle mass would become important, would be when a Marine is crushed under a dead Carnifex and had to lift it to get out. And it's not like that has happened that often. Might as well argue that men make crappy soldiers because someone can kick them on their balls.

But back to the point I was making: muscle mass is merely one benefit of being a Marine. One in few dozen. A female Marine would get the benefit of the super blood, extra organs, nightvision, etc. All that. Muscles are a tiny piece of what makes a good Marine. Tiny. Being a big hunk of muscle does not make one into a good Marine. It's like having a massive unit, it does not make you a good lover. It can compensate from some lacking, but there's a great many things that make a successful intercourse and being gifted down there does not make up for all the lacking on other fields. Just because a crappy car is in your favourite colour, does not make up for the fact that it's a crappy car.

Do you know how Marines or any normal army separate "best of the best" form the rest? Through the rigerous trials tests, training, etc. If a woman makes it through them to the point where she has all the implants and all, has she not succeeded in the same as a male one? How do you judge her further? By all accounts, she is good enough. Not all the male Marines that come out of there are as good as others.


As for the armour comment, how does extending the armour outwards to compensate for breasts make it heavier? Take a sheet of metal and fract it into a plate mail. Now hammer two cups into it for tits. At what point does the weight of it grow? You make room on the inside, resulting in the armour extending outwards. Simple as that. Besides, if women end up as smaller than men, it would result in them having smaller armour and as such lighter.


I've never been interested in female Space Marines before but I'm very tempted to do a female Emperor's Child for fun and to annoy people with... Even better as I can use the "'cause it's Chaos!" excuse...
Have you read Storm of Iron? A Guard lieutenant is captured and works as a slave to an IW captain. His armour starts to talk to her and once while cleaning it, she dresses into it, kills him and ends up leading his troops in the final assault. She's in Dead Sky, Black Sun, but I haven't read it yet.


But don't try to give it a fluff explanation unless they were stuck in the warp and tormented by tzeentch/slaanesh for years.
Don't tell me what to do. I'll write a freaking novel saga about them on how and why if I want to.


Maybe I have missed something somewhere along the line.... but why in the world is there a new thread about this every couple of days?
Because the last one got locked.


Weren't the sisters of battle literaly made for this? Why try to invent fluff for space marine females when it exists seperately?
Sisters are a replacement to the Frateris Templars, not an off shoot of the Marines.


Why try to create new female space marine models when they exist already?
Yeah, two RT (as far as I know) era female Marine models.


Games Wkshop made the models and fluff most likely because people keep trying to do this.
I present to you:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own Fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all.

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!


This way space marines keep their cool masculinity while the stranger crowd who wants to play with little plastic models with breasts... can have the sisters of battle(I kinda feel sorry for the models)
I feel sorry for you for thinking that.


Wasn't the whole point of marine enhancement not hormone based but dependant on the Y chromosome?
Creation of a Space Marine states "male hormones" and "male tissue types."

theunwantedbeing
22-08-2008, 00:46
A flat plate hammered out into the shape of breasts is going to be thinner than a normal plate.
As it has a greater surface area and no more mass to it, make it as thick, it's got more mass to it.
So is heavier, or weaker if the same weight.

Sekhmet
22-08-2008, 01:01
So if you have a chick that's good enough, maybe even better than you're average male SM recruit, why should you pass her over? I don't think anyone is claiming that in the Guard the ration of all men and women is 50-50. There's more men, but a good amount of women are sure to fill the ranks as well.

You'd pass her up because, as you said yourself, a female would require different and probably more intense genetic manipulation to maximize their potential.



As for the last bit you're asking me, why have such things, why have "inferior" Marines and have them in places that don't have much men when you can always find a place that does? How do I know?

Might as well ask wouldn't painting armour with camo colours, taking off all the bling not only shines but rattles around in dark and giving them more training in stealth tactics would make them far more effective? Wouldn't it be better if they actually had proper medical process and sanitary equipment during the implantation rather than stupid arcane rituals and instruments not cleaned in few millenia. There would actually be more recruits actually surviving further on. Wouldn't it be better if the Marines tried other tactics than assault or shock assault?

Because they specialize in shock and assault. That's what they do. You send better suited units to do other things, like IG to fight wars or the Navy to kill enemy fleets. Anyway, you're building up a straw man.



See, it's not all just about taking the best of the best and slapping them with organs, but they organs have to be compitable with the host like any organ and the target has to pass dozens of other tests as well. If they were to take women into count, they would effectively double their potential recruits.

Potential recruits has never been a problem. They're limited not by the number of recruits, but by the Codex's limit on Chapter size. I would've thought that's painfully obvious.



Even if a woman wouldn't be "as good" as a male Marine, she would be far better than anything else.

Anything else... HUMAN. A female marine would probably be weaker than a male marine, and guess what Space Marines often fight? Marines!



Do you know how Marines or any normal army separate "best of the best" form the rest? Through the rigerous trials tests, training, etc. If a woman makes it through them to the point where she has all the implants and all, has she not succeeded in the same as a male one? How do you judge her further? By all accounts, she is good enough. Not all the male Marines that come out of there are as good as others.

Did you know that normal armies discriminate on their physical fitness tests based on sex? Sure, there are occasions where females are genetically gifted and outperform males with similar training. And sure, females who train a lot fare far better than males who sit on the couch all day. But the whole point, which you made, is the potential. The marine training and geneseed implantation maximizes the potential.



As for the armour comment, how does extending the armour outwards to compensate for breasts make it heavier? Take a sheet of metal and fract it into a plate mail. Now hammer two cups into it for tits. At what point does the weight of it grow? You make room on the inside, resulting in the armour extending outwards. Simple as that. Besides, if women end up as smaller than men, it would result in them having smaller armour and as such lighter.

Ceramic is not steel. Bad analogy. And even if it were, see the above post.



Don't tell me what to do. I'll write a freaking novel saga about them on how and why if I want to.

Calm down, unless you're trying to get this thread locked.

I was saying "you" in general, not directed specifically towards you. But hell, if you want to write an entire saga about how 3+ saves in game relate to the 40k universe, go ahead, I won't stop you. I'd probably even read it.

Doctor Thunder
22-08-2008, 01:15
I think this thread represents a critical design question in any conversion. And that is, to what extent do you follow real world practicality and science, and to what extent do you ignore the real world questions in favor of making something fun and interesting.

I think, if anything, this thread has shown that different people find the balance between realism and cool in different ways.

Personally, I think the purpose of 40K is to ignore reality in favor of coolness whenever possible. There are plenty of very realistic wargames, but I don't play them because I like the way 40K goes completely over the top and down the other side again.

Back when I was doing game demos and introducing new people into the game, I remember always telling them: "Remember, it's not supposed to make sense, it's just supposed to be cool."

Col. Tartleton
22-08-2008, 01:53
Just checking in to see that everyones still being chummy :p

If the marines strength is only enhanced 20% by PA then the fluff is wrong, and the in game marines are realistic. Otherwise I disagree with this statement.

Its more like there strength is 20% of that exerted ;) so PA is like +400% so 5x normal when in the armor. Which would allow for the marines mauling stuff so hard. A carnifex ways several tons. If you can lift it off you, thats impossible for being 80% your muscle. I don't care how much spinach a marine eats, spinach is for valhallans...


While we're at it, who wants to help me think of fluff for a non astarte male PA force...

The Ecclesiarchy can't have male troops, but the other branches of the Imperium can. Fraters Exitiabilis Ictus: Brothers of the Lethal Bolt.

Oh yeah.

Sekhmet
22-08-2008, 01:57
Lifting a carnifex off from ontop of you doesn't mean lifting the entire weight. Imagine lifting a car off the ground - It's not impossible because much of the weight is still centered over portions (the wheels in this case) that are in contact with the ground.

MrBigMr
22-08-2008, 02:05
You'd pass her up because, as you said yourself, a female would require different and probably more intense genetic manipulation to maximize their potential.
Normal armies don't pass up women because they have to accommodate for their needs (their own cabin/barracks, toilets and showers, special womenly items, etc.) It's an investment for the future. Once you're made all the needed logistics for women, the rest of it goes smoothly as the whole basis of it all is there.


Because they specialize in shock and assault. That's what they do. You send better suited units to do other things, like IG to fight wars or the Navy to kill enemy fleets. Anyway, you're building up a straw man.
They didn't do it during the Great Crusade. Back then they were the primary fighting force of the Imperium. They assaulted, held sieges, waged war and all that. They were done as the ultimate warrior and could be fielded in any role. Now they're neutered into being assault troops. Where's the long sieges? Where's the infiltation? Where's the mundane operations? The traitor Legions still do those things and the basic Marine hasn't changed that much over the millenia (ok, Chaos ones have grown tentacles). I hope your get the point.


Potential recruits has never been a problem. They're limited not by the number of recruits, but by the Codex's limit on Chapter size. I would've thought that's painfully obvious.
I don't think recruits and neophytes count into that number. And since when have the chapters followed the Codex? Black Templars are said to number around 6000. Even the Ultramarines break their own holy document.


and guess what Space Marines often fight? Marines!
Where is this stated? Aren't Marines suppose to be like really rare (CSM included)?


Did you know that normal armies discriminate on their physical fitness tests based on sex?
I don't remember any chick getting special treatment in such cases. Hell, during training, they slept in the same tents with the guys. They carried the same gear, used the same items, did what any guy did.

Sure, there were some "limits", as far as I know. Such as that women couldn't become a guerrilla/scout because the training was too tough. Funny thing that women could and did enlist into the border patrol, which is the same exact training. And women could become guerrilla/scout NCOs and officers, which demanded even greater fitness. I know a few quite fit guys who have been to that training and even they were close to breaking at some points.

So in some parts the restriction was nothing but politics.


But the whole point, which you made, is the potential. The marine training and geneseed implantation maximizes the potential.
Doesn't mean that some guys maximum potential would be lower than some woman's, and both being able to pass through into being a Marine.

And really, this is the future we're talking about. A future where anything is possible, so naturally there can be a freaking planet filled with physically fit women who are more than able to match up to any man, and all the man on the planet have generically retarded into penises with bodies attached to them (Eschers for one). Insert mad Admech guru and *bang*.

How do we know how much genetical mutation has gone through humanity along the dark ages before they even left Earth? You got enough pipe bending, nail chewing cast iron bitched in the universe as it is. And what limits a chapter to pick from one planet alone? Many gather troops from all over the place, setting up missionary stations or just landing once every set number of years and picking the best of the best.

So this way they can pick the best of the best women for their little force.


Ceramic is not steel. Bad analogy. And even if it were, see the above post.
I would've though it was painfully obvious what I was getting at. But what ever it is, if Sisters are willing to have such armour, the end is a moot point indeed. Does it matter if the armour weighs 200Kg standard or 201Kg with cups when it carries itself? The added discomfort is not really worth the extra kilo. In the army you leared that even the slightest of discomforts will in few days and a hudred miles turn serious (after the army I've never had sores on my feet ever again). And if the women end up being smaller/shorter, and the armour needs to be rescaled down to them, that should bring the weigh down a lot.


I'd probably even read it.
Why do you turn this thread into a house of lies?

(that is a joke from Simpsons, just so that no one rips their panties)


All in all, we should be able to forget the whole notion of resources on the matter, as the Imperium is more than capable of throwing away anything they want. They're more than willing to waste lives and resources for close to nothing. It's really nitpicking in my mind, but it that is how we're gonna play it, fine by me.

We might as well start asking why have women in the Guard, when you have to accommodate for their needs. It's not like there's a shortage on men. Why were the Sister armours forged with tits and all in all overly feminin features, when they could have just done a scaled down version of the Marine armour it was based on? Why does the Imperium strap precious literature and arcane items on their backs only to be shot into pieces in the heat of battle?


While we're at it, who wants to help me think of fluff for a non astarte male PA force...

The Ecclesiarchy can't have male troops, but the other branches of the Imperium can. Fraters Exitiabilis Ictus: Brothers of the Lethal Bolt.
I don't see why you couldn't do a Frateris Templars army. People do Pre-Heresy Marine armies etc. all the time. Admech would be another fine woman hating organization of old farts (are there any female techpriests?).

I have a non-astartes PA army as my Chaos army.


Lifting a carnifex off from ontop of you doesn't mean lifting the entire weight. Imagine lifting a car off the ground - It's not impossible because much of the weight is still centered over portions (the wheels in this case) that are in contact with the ground.
Yeah, but what's cooler: lifting it over your head with the appropriate sound effects (*grunt grunt ROAR!*) or just rolling it over to claw your way from under it?

PondaNagura
22-08-2008, 02:24
normal armies don't pass up females because either its required by state law due to a percentile expected, or because no one else will join..but that's a bit off topic.

admech would probably have vast amount of power armor, having better on the spot resources that guard units may lack. that or pre-apostacy frateris templars. or you could make your own all male army, like some sub-sector of the ultramar region who are a bit more opulent than most guardsmen. maybe some xenos-lovin outcasts (tau, necrons). un-accounted for humans from non-imperial space with DAoT resources.

i guess you could always stick ogryns in power armor, be them man or woman and let them loose as MEQs.

Doctor Thunder
22-08-2008, 03:03
Regular males in power armor would also be very appropriate for a human group which has been isolated from the imperium since the heresy

sydbridges
22-08-2008, 03:10
(are there any female techpriests?).

Yes, there are. They don't seem to be as common if the novels are anything to go by, but I can think of two that occurred in the Soul Drinker novels (one who specialized in reverse engineering and one who was some sort of biologist), and I think there was one in one of the Cain novels.

As for female marines, as long as it wasn't a bunch of "Hecate in Terminator Bikini" type models, it wouldn't bother me if an opponent fielded an army of them. Hell, even if they were, I'd still play against them, however I'd probably at some point be tempted to ask how a bikini grants a 2+ armor save. In fact, the first leader I had for my Emperor's Children army was my winged daemonic princess. I wrote some fluff to explain how a SoB would end up pledging her soul to Slaanesh and eventually become the leader of an EC warband.

TheOverlord
22-08-2008, 03:28
I've heard some things about some Fraternis Templar.

Can someone educate me to such delights? This looks like a project I might be interested on.

-edit- Yes there are female Tech Priests. There was one in the first Cain novel (or was it second?) The one where he got stuck behind orc lines in some world starting with P and a dam broke or something. For the life of me I can't remember it's name. She wasn't a high ranking one, but that's more towards the fact of her attitude than her gender.

StarshipBOb
22-08-2008, 05:38
I've heard some things about some Fraternis Templar.

Can someone educate me to such delights? This looks like a project I might be interested on.



They where essentially Vandire's private army during the Age of Apostasy. After said age, a decree was passed banning the church from having any men under arms, so instead they converted the Brides of the Emperor into the Sisters of Battle.

That said, they where never really specific on what equipment they used. I myself imagine that they either used carapace armor not unlike the Arbites, or force feedback power armor like the SoB. They might have used both in order to distinguish rank. On the flipside, they may have been a pretty standard army with Imperial Guard goodies.

While disbanded by the Ecclesiarchy, their is a possibility that they may still exist in the isolated system of Clax which unfortunately is located in the middle of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

TheOverlord
22-08-2008, 06:17
Ah much thanks :D

Shas'o Lar
22-08-2008, 08:57
First of all, IMHO, this 'conflict' about female Astartes is a personal one, not logical one. As already proved by posters in this and other threads, there is a huge number of plausible explanations for female Space Marines. It seems that posters opposing such a blasphemy like femSM either think that it's just not in the Space Marines' character (which would be an okey explanation, but nobody made such a point yet) or just don't want boobs in their army. Hey, what's wrong with boobs ? As a young, rather typical male I say that the more boobies, the merrier ! :D

And to bring something more than my personal opinion to this thread, here is something about SoB armours straight from the Witchhunters Codex (p.19):


The power armour worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life-support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their won armour.

So, you have it in fluff and not only game stats - the SoB armour along with the breast cups has equal protection as the Space marines armour.

It's unrealistic ? And since when are 8ft-tall superhumans with fists the size of your TV set fighting daemons and space elves realistic ? ;) It's like looking for continuity in Star Wars - there is none, I can tell you that :P

Also, after reading the article about Space Marines creation once again (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/) the only thing that could be problematic with females would be Phase 3, Biscopea, because it either releases or stimulates the hormones responsible for muscle growth. On the other hand, unless they would be fighting bare-handed, muscle strength doesn't mean that much for power-armour-clad people on the 40k battlefield. They won't be much of a help in a firefight, because the power armour will handle most of the weapon's weight, and in close combat, all those nice chainswords and power fists have enough destructive damage on own, and swinging them harder will result in a more dramatic-movie-style punch, but the actual damage would be similar.

That's all of course IMHO.

MrBigMr
22-08-2008, 14:45
Yes, there are.
You had me at 'yes'. At least now I have some ammo to defend my female obliterator techpriest (techmarine with harness by rules). Who I'm building around the Doctor's resin terminator bikinis.


As for female marines, as long as it wasn't a bunch of "Hecate in Terminator Bikini" type models, it wouldn't bother me if an opponent fielded an army of them. Hell, even if they were, I'd still play against them, however I'd probably at some point be tempted to ask how a bikini grants a 2+ armor save.
Sexy Armour
Hey, it worked for the guys in 300.

But if we start nitpicking on such things, how does Kharn get full 3+ save when his whole arm is exposed? How do 13th company wolfens get 3+ save when their arms and heads are exposed? How do the Sister Repentias get 4+ from few pieces of parchment and a metal bikini? I think the simple answer is because they're so dead 'ard.

I'm planning to do a veteran for my Chaos army who only has about half of his torso covered with power armour and the rest if just flesh. Someone starts to argue he doesn't get full 3+ save, they better start rolling for save for their ass because it's grass and my boot Counts As a poisoned master-crafted power lawnmower with grass as the preferred enemy.


In fact, the first leader I had for my Emperor's Children army was my winged daemonic princess. I wrote some fluff to explain how a SoB would end up pledging her soul to Slaanesh and eventually become the leader of an EC warband.
Though I don't think there's a single truly fallen Sister in the fluff, I don't see anything wrong with it. I have Sister as a sorcerer in my Chaos army.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2008, 14:51
As much as the Witch Hunters does say it is equal protection, it isn't quite. In Inquisitor power armour is 10 points of armour, but Astartes actually have 13 on their chest, arms and legs due to the additional bonded ablative ceramite armour there (representing those big marine chestplates, paulions and greaves).

I agree, there are plausible explanations for feminiSMs, and the onus is on the naysayers to "prove" it is impossible, which can't be done beyond "it's unlikely for X, Y, Z reasons". Personally, my opinion on this is the same as with Gay Marriage. It means the world for some people, it makes absolutely no impact on your life, so why the heck try to stop people doing it?

There is ONE advantage I can think of for the slighter build, lower muscle mass and potentially thinner armour - reduced mass can mean higher reflexes. Which could be an excuse. But as others have said, given that the supplicant's entire skeleton and muscle structure are engineered, there's no reason to suggest feminiSMs would be weaker, they just wouldn't look any different from normal SMs other than their primary sexual organs.

Which isn't to say that a "weaker" chapter would be such a bad thing. The creating a space marine article suggests that there are chapters out there lacking ossmudula or biscopea organs, which would be markedly "weaker" of "weedier" than regular Space Marines. Such chapters would presumably not fight so up-close-and-personal, but it's not like SM just hit their enemies with sticks, is it?


Though I don't think there's a single truly fallen Sister in the fluff, I don't see anything wrong with it. I have Sister as a sorcerer in my Chaos army.
There were some in one of the Daemonifuge comics. Although that did also include Ministorium warships so take that with a pinch of salt, but there's no reason you can't have a Chaos Sister.

Clockwork-Knight
22-08-2008, 14:53
There is a fallen sister. I can't remember any name, but there is a picture on the Dark Millennium cards. A freak sororitas chick with some strange barbed tongue and a bolter.

MrBigMr
22-08-2008, 15:42
As much as the Witch Hunters does say it is equal protection, it isn't quite. In Inquisitor power armour is 10 points of armour, but Astartes actually have 13 on their chest, arms and legs due to the additional bonded ablative ceramite armour there (representing those big marine chestplates, paulions and greaves).
It just means that it's automatic bonus on their gear, like how there's a rebreather in the armour as well, which the Sisters' armour is suppose to lack. And seeing how there aren't Sisters of Battle within the character creation lists (at least I didn't see it in the Ecclesiarchy section), so how can you say for certain that they wouldn't have bonded ablative ceramite power armour as well? The power armour bit refers to normal, basic power armour. Fluff says the Sister armour if based on the Marine armour and offers the same protection, so naturally it should offer the same protection as the Marine armour. Right? Besides, seeing how much they work with flamers and meltas, having the ceramite addition seems natural.


Personally, my opinion on this is the same as with Gay Marriage. It means the world for some people, it makes absolutely no impact on your life, so why the heck try to stop people doing it?
Because the rules in the Big Black Book says it's not possible.


There is a fallen sister. I can't remember any name, but there is a picture on the Dark Millennium cards. A freak sororitas chick with some strange barbed tongue and a bolter.
You mean this:

Clockwork-Knight
22-08-2008, 16:07
Yes, that one.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2008, 16:16
It just means that it's automatic bonus on their gear, like how there's a rebreather in the armour as well, which the Sisters' armour is suppose to lack. And seeing how there aren't Sisters of Battle within the character creation lists (at least I didn't see it in the Ecclesiarchy section), so how can you say for certain that they wouldn't have bonded ablative ceramite power armour as well?
Firstly, they simply don't have large autoreactive ceramite pauldrons. A glance at the models makes that obvious! Secondly, here are the rules (http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/sororitas.html)for sisters, it merely mentions "power armour".

I don't see the issue here. Sororitas armour is clearly power armour, but it is very obviously not as massively armoured as Space Marine armour. The Inquisitor rules support this, as do the many fluff references that Space Marine power armour is superior to that worn by any mere mortal due to its advanced design and full integration via the black carapace. What's this got to do with feminiSMs?

sydbridges
22-08-2008, 17:24
But if we start nitpicking on such things, how does Kharn get full 3+ save when his whole arm is exposed? How do 13th company wolfens get 3+ save when their arms and heads are exposed? How do the Sister Repentias get 4+ from few pieces of parchment and a metal bikini? I think the simple answer is because they're so dead 'ard.

Well, the arm(s) doesn't (don't) contain any vital organs, unlike, say, the torso of a human being, but yeah, I wouldn't actually be trying to talk them into reducing the armor save. It'd be more like a, "Really. Your Tactical Dreadnaught Armor is a bikini top and thong. You've managed to successfully protect virtually none of her organs, y'know," less of a "and I demand the rules be adjusted *grim dark fist shake!*"

...Also, the nipple-spikes on the evil SoB in that picture make me giggle. I think I need to add nipple-spikes to one of my (male) Noise Marines now.

djinn8
28-08-2008, 19:28
Here's a nice model of a female Slaanesh marine for anyone interested in seeing one.:confused:

http://www.minivault.com/ECLordfront.htm

MrBigMr
28-08-2008, 21:33
Firstly, they simply don't have large autoreactive ceramite pauldrons. A glance at the models makes that obvious!
They do have large shoulder guards, so what's to say they're not just different form of the same thing?


Secondly, here are the rules (http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/sororitas.html)for sisters, it merely mentions "power armour".
GW UK site tells us that Necrons are more prone to malfunction due to EM radiation than cellphones.

I'm not saying that site is wrong, but if I have to choose between one of the many GW sites, or the codex itself, I'll have to say that in Big-verse the armour offers the same protection.


What's this got to do with feminiSMs?
Isn't the topic "Female Power Armor" and not "Female Marines"?


Well, the arm(s) doesn't (don't) contain any vital organs, unlike, say, the torso of a human being, but yeah, I wouldn't actually be trying to talk them into reducing the armor save. It'd be more like a, "Really. Your Tactical Dreadnaught Armor is a bikini top and thong. You've managed to successfully protect virtually none of her organs, y'know," less of a "and I demand the rules be adjusted *grim dark fist shake!*"
Only thing those bikinis would save are their tits. The lungs are pretty large, not to forget major blood vessels around the neck and shoulders, the liver and the always the fun of a gutshot. And a shot to a limb, or a traumatic amputation of a limb will result to shock.


...Also, the nipple-spikes on the evil SoB in that picture make me giggle. I think I need to add nipple-spikes to one of my (male) Noise Marines now.
Don't forget chaincodpiece.
*imagines a berserker making his way through a Guard line with his hands behind his head and rhytmically thrusting with his pelvis while grunting*
"Blood... For... The... Blood... God... Oh... Yeah..."

Lord Inquisitor
28-08-2008, 22:36
They do have large shoulder guards, so what's to say they're not just different form of the same thing?
Um, because they're not large autoreactive shoulder pauldrons. :eyebrows:


I'm not saying that site is wrong, but if I have to choose between one of the many GW sites, or the codex itself, I'll have to say that in Big-verse the armour offers the same protection.
The rules on that site come from the article on sisters of battle in Exterminatus. And you're moving the goalposts there.

Ultimately, the point is that sisters armour is obviously less massive than Space Marine armour (simply from looking at the models and artwork). In particular, they lack the thicker plating on the shoulders, chest and shins. This should not be up for debate - just look at the models! The Inquisitor rules support this, as Marines have more armour on the arms, legs and chest compared with the sisters.

I don't even remember what the point of all this is. If you want to stick your fingers [edit: in your ears :angel:] and ignore this that's fine - you're welcome to believe that there's no difference in the protective capabilities of astartes and sororitas armour if you like. There obviously isn't much difference - they're both 3+ save power armour - so you can say that they provide the "same amount of protection (pretty much, at least compared with flack or carapace)" but that's not to say that there is no difference at all between suits of armour. Even different patterns of astartes power armour provide differing amounts of protection!


Isn't the topic "Female Power Armor" and not "Female Marines"?
Na, that's just what Wintermute changed the title to be:
Its a discussion about the idea of Female Space Marines.Still, I don't mind if you want to take it this way.


Don't forget chaincodpiece.
*imagines a berserker making his way through a Guard line with his hands behind his head and rhytmically thrusting with his pelvis while grunting*
"Blood... For... The... Blood... God... Oh... Yeah..."
I've been planning to add a naked Bezerker wearing nothing but a helmet and a loincloth chained to one of my Emperor's Children vehicles if that counts... :)

madd0ct0r
28-08-2008, 22:53
Don't forget chaincodpiece.
*imagines a berserker making his way through a Guard line with his hands behind his head and rhytmically thrusting with his pelvis while grunting*
"Blood... For... The... Blood... God... Oh... Yeah..."

Oh dear gods.
No wonder those beserkers are grumpy.


Looking at the artwork, i'd guess the repentia are actually supposed to be naked, half starved and with purity seals stapled through their tounges.
Gameswise they needed some sort of armour save (and are still rubbish) and GW does seem to avoid too much nudity on it's models.

Couldn't those breasts on the SoB armour be ablative? They're clearly mostly symbolic (ie, the sister's don't actually fill them)

MrBigMr
28-08-2008, 23:56
Um, because they're not large autoreactive shoulder pauldrons. :eyebrows:
So they're not big and might not move with the users arm (seeing that they're not that much in the way. That does not make them somehow less protective.


The rules on that site come from the article on sisters of battle in Exterminatus.
I haven't seen the said rules listed among the Special List games Inquisitor rules. Nor do all the people out there accept everything that's written in them. I remember one debate where the whole obliterator virus rules and fluff was listed pretty much at the rank of fanfic by some.


Ultimately, the point is that sisters armour is obviously less massive than Space Marine armour (simply from looking at the models and artwork). In particular, they lack the thicker plating on the shoulders, chest and shins. This should not be up for debate - just look at the models! The Inquisitor rules support this, as Marines have more armour on the arms, legs and chest compared with the sisters.

I don't even remember what the point of all this is. If you want to stick your fingers [edit: in your ears :angel:] and ignore this that's fine - you're welcome to believe that there's no difference in the protective capabilities of astartes and sororitas armour if you like. There obviously isn't much difference - they're both 3+ save power armour - so you can say that they provide the "same amount of protection (pretty much, at least compared with flack or carapace)" but that's not to say that there is no difference at all between suits of armour. Even different patterns of astartes power armour provide differing amounts of protection!
Look, what are you getting upset about? If I was to blindly read into every bit of info out there, I should shun the very idea of female Marines as well, along with many other non-fluffy ideas, but I don't. The thing is that those Inquisitor rules you're pointing to, also disallow such things as a lasbolt piercing the Marine's armour chest from the first shot without any prior damage (10+3 > 2D6), which has happened in few novels. Not to forget that some of the amounts of ammo listed there seem to vary from source to source, so am I to take INQ rulebook as canon over all the rest, or take other sources into fact as well and make up my own damn mind. Not to forget that ablative and such are special abilities that one can slap onto any armour type, such as the Sister armour. I know that if I ever used a Sister in INQ, I could most likely talk the GMs I know around to allowing her to have the same protection as a Marine. The problem would be that around here anything above flak armour and lasgun is quite rare in INQ games.

And you're the one with fingers up his hiney. I have never said that it did not read what it reads, just that out of all the sources I am forced to make up my own damn mind. You can believe what ever you want with the quotes you can find, and I can have have my beliefs with the quotes that support them.

If sufficient evidence surfaces to sway me to change my mind, I will. But I'm not gonna do it because someone says so.

And if you want to look at models, there's a good amount of things we can look at and compared 'til the end of days. Remember, this is GW's heroic scale, where scale is a misnomer in the worst case. Hell, Marine models aren't even much taller than IG models, so where are those 8' supersoldiers?


I've been planning to add a naked Bezerker wearing nothing but a helmet and a loincloth chained to one of my Emperor's Children vehicles if that counts... :)
Better than a picture I saw the other day of a Marine holding down a berserker and planting a banner up his... Well, you get the idea.

I'm working on a captured, half-naked and chained up Eldar on a Rhino dedicated for my Chaos vets.


Gameswise they needed some sort of armour save
How is that? There's plenty of CC units that have next to no save and don't even carry freaking power fists with 2D6 AP.


and GW does seem to avoid too much nudity on it's models.
These days. Diaz 'nettes weren't very covered, there's things like Morathi and her next to no coverage, I've seen some old GW art that was far more disturbing than current one, etc. Not to forget things like one very old Slaaneshi beastman with penis horns.

And you can dress someone up without giving them armour save.


(ie, the sister's don't actually fill them)
I'm sorry, but the jury is out on that and their verdict is:

ironcurtin117
29-08-2008, 01:32
I'm sorry, but the jury is out on that and their verdict is:



What comic is that?

schoon
29-08-2008, 03:29
Just because I have not seen in mentioned yet, if you look at the top left and botton left here (http://solegends.com/citrt/rt601adventurers.htm), you will see female power armor figures from early in GW's history. Thankfully I even have a few in the bitz box.

sydbridges
29-08-2008, 04:44
Only thing those bikinis would save are their tits. The lungs are pretty large, not to forget major blood vessels around the neck and shoulders, the liver and the always the fun of a gutshot. And a shot to a limb, or a traumatic amputation of a limb will result to shock.

I didn't mean to imply that a shot to the arm was more fun than a shot anywhere else, just that the odds of suffering trauma that a medic can't fix via gunshot wound is less with an arm shot than a shot through the gut, where it's practically a festival of organs that do not like perforation.


Don't forget chaincodpiece.
*imagines a berserker making his way through a Guard line with his hands behind his head and rhytmically thrusting with his pelvis while grunting*
"Blood... For... The... Blood... God... Oh... Yeah..."

I am 100% for this plan. I'm seeing him carrying a trigger in one hand with a wire running to his groin, where a chainsword blade is looking quite phallic, nipple-spikes threatening all within violent hugging range.

MrBigMr
29-08-2008, 05:34
I didn't mean to imply that a shot to the arm was more fun than a shot anywhere else, just that the odds of suffering trauma that a medic can't fix via gunshot wound is less with an arm shot than a shot through the gut, where it's practically a festival of organs that do not like perforation.
DuFresne: I'm not really comfortable with that; I'm not a doctor, I'm a medic.
Church: What's the difference?
DuFresne: Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable... while they die.

They trained me as a medic in the army, so I can vouch to that.


I am 100% for this plan. I'm seeing him carrying a trigger in one hand with a wire running to his groin, where a chainsword blade is looking quite phallic, nipple-spikes threatening all within violent hugging range.
No, man, no trigger. Like his anger, the blade never dies. Like his bloodlust, it never runs out. Imagine after few hudred years after his death, a group of soldiers come to the site of his death and find the blade still running and revving on his loins.


Just because I have not seen in mentioned yet, if you look at the top left and botton left here (http://solegends.com/citrt/rt601adventurers.htm), you will see female power armor figures from early in GW's history. Thankfully I even have a few in the bitz box.
Oh, you know you have to spread the love around a bit, my friend. I know I have to get at least one of each.


What comic is that?
A little thing called Lost in Space, probably the best webcomic ever. And very hard to find as it's not online anymore.

Lord Inquisitor
29-08-2008, 16:14
So they're not big and might not move with the users arm (seeing that they're not that much in the way. That does not make them somehow less protective.
No, the fact that they're thinner and cover much less area makes them less protective!

Just look here, I've thrown together a rough size comparison:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2agrm9d.jpg

You can simply see there's less armour there!


I haven't seen the said rules listed among the Special List games Inquisitor rules.
No, that's because it was in the old Inquisitor magazine, Exterminatus. Not all of the articles were reprinted online, for some reason.


Look, what are you getting upset about?
I'm not - I realise looking back it came across that way. I mean what I said quite literally with no rancor intended. I apologise if I came across as having a go at you. Would a smiley make it better? :)


The thing is that those Inquisitor rules you're pointing to, also disallow such things as a lasbolt piercing the Marine's armour chest from the first shot without any prior damage (10+3 > 2D6), which has happened in few novels.
It can if you use the "lucky hit" rules on page 42 of the second half of the online Inquisitor rules ;)


Not to forget that some of the amounts of ammo listed there seem to vary from source to source, so am I to take INQ rulebook as canon over all the rest, or take other sources into fact as well and make up my own damn mind. Not to forget that ablative and such are special abilities that one can slap onto any armour type, such as the Sister armour.
Yes, yes. However, it is simply a rules mechanic that backs up the simple observation that marine armour is just thicker than sisters armour. Look at the image I linked to again:

http://i35.tinypic.com/10r4whg.jpg

I'm no artist, but I've tried to take the right leg as an example, and I've marked in white where the leg ought to be. The sisters leg can't be much thinner (she's pretty skinny as it is!) and the marine's shin can't be much bigger either to stay in proportion with the rest of his body. There is simply really rather a lot more space around the marine's leg! And you can see that the armour is simply thicker by looking at the tops of the greaves.


And you're the one with fingers up his hiney.
Hey, hey, chill - I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort I just realised I'd left out the word "ears" entirely by mistake which made the sentence somewhat dodgy...


Better than a picture I saw the other day of a Marine holding down a berserker and planting a banner up his... Well, you get the idea.
People draw some weird stuff...


I'm working on a captured, half-naked and chained up Eldar on a Rhino dedicated for my Chaos vets.
Also not a bad idea...

madd0ct0r
29-08-2008, 16:32
Would a different way of looking at it to suggest that heroic scale is not equal?

Marines are more heroic, therefore get even more distorted in heroic scale then the sisters?

What height are marine models compared to sisters?

Lord Inquisitor
29-08-2008, 16:38
~ 2-3 feet taller. See the picture I linked to above!

But bear in mind that even if you take any given part of the armour as equal (for example, assuming that the thigh and abdomen plates provide equal protection) the Marine armour still has more armour on the greaves, pauldrons and chestplate.

madd0ct0r
29-08-2008, 16:45
2-3 foot?

marines are 7' and surely a sister in power armour would reach 6'

That said I do agree the marines are wearing much thicker diameter armour.
I'd argue that some of that would be taken up by the enviromental systems a marine armour also includes.
Part of me wants to say this only makes them easier to hit...

testosteronicon
29-08-2008, 16:49
But as others have said, given that the supplicant's entire skeleton and muscle structure are engineered, there's no reason to suggest feminiSMs would be weaker, they just wouldn't look any different from normal SMs other than their primary sexual organs.


Ok, I've found it on wiki, but I'm pretty sure there are other and better sources that can vouch for this (first heard it on discoverychannel myself):

"The DNA of gorillas is 98%–99% identical to that of a human, and they are the next closest living relatives to humans after the two chimpanzee species."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla


And this from Seaworld.org:

"An adult gorilla's upper body strength is six times more powerful than that of an adult human - enabling them to lift, break, and squeeze heavy objects."

http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/gorilla/physical-characteristics.htm


My point is that with only about 1,5% difference between Gorillas and humans, there should be no problem for the Uberscience in the future to fix the strength of women to a level where a Str 4 in game terms is justified (with a little bit of gene-tech). Heck, Gorillas don't have special super organs.

However, this gene-tampering might lead to gorilla-looking women though:wtf:
You'd have to pay me to convert such models:p


IMHO though.

Lord Inquisitor
29-08-2008, 16:51
Yeah, maybe three foot might be a bit much. A marine in full plate is meant to be 8' tall, I guess if in armour a sister is 6' tall that makes it about 2'.

Heights are sort of flexible. Dan Abnett's characters are frequently over two meters tall, even the women. Even more extreme, an Inquisitor in one of Ben Counter's books was over three meters tall, although he was surgically altered. I can only imagine he had to duck a lot to fit in rooms.

madd0ct0r
29-08-2008, 17:20
Ah, that explains why high gothic ceilings are so common. Any worlds that didn't got the exterminatus button.

2' sounds more feasible. I know many girls who are less then 6' but i do know quite a few who beat it.

Iuris
29-08-2008, 18:41
Oh, yes, the problems tall people meet in life are always ignored. I'm amazed no writer has yet noticed that a space marine doesn't fit through a standard door. Or that a spaceship could be made quite marine assault proof simply by making the corridors as small as human users need, saving space, materials, armor requirements etc etc etc.

MrBigMr
29-08-2008, 18:49
We have to remember that Marine armour has tons of extra stuff in it, like life support, medical equipment, monitoring devices, etc. Those take up space as well. Hell, the Marines might contain all their **** and... the other stuff in their legs. Not to forget that it might employ a spaced armour, which would make it larger as it needs space between the outer and inner layer. This would give it a limited protection from things like bolts (as they would detonated in the space) and shaped charges.

As for the shape of the Sister shoulder Guard, old style terminator armours (the Mk. 0 or what ever they were during the Crusade) had similarly shaped thingies. And they didn't look as thick as the current ones either.


Oh, when will man learn it's not the size, but how it is built. There is no telling whether or not Sister armour are built with better quality materials than SM ones. Marines are far from the elite of the elite when it comes to the Imperium. There are many, many factions that have access to great technologies even the Marines can't use. Who knows how finely crafted the Sister armours are when compared to the ancient armours of the Marines that might trace back to the Great Crusade and before it (besides, if they're so great, why did they make newer and newer versions to improve them?), not to forget that they were designed for legions numbering in hudreds of thousands back then.


Oh, yes, the problems tall people meet in life are always ignored. I'm amazed no writer has yet noticed that a space marine doesn't fit through a standard door. Or that a spaceship could be made quite marine assault proof simply by making the corridors as small as human users need, saving space, materials, armor requirements etc etc etc.
I remember some author once writing that Marines suffer from gigantism, but I quess it's not the case anymore.

Lord Inquisitor
29-08-2008, 19:31
Ok, I've found it on wiki, but I'm pretty sure there are other and better sources that can vouch for this (first heard it on discoverychannel myself)
Ha, I can vouch for that, I'm a molecular biologist. ;)


My point is that with only about 1,5% difference between Gorillas and humans, there should be no problem for the Uberscience in the future to fix the strength of women to a level where a Str 4 in game terms is justified (with a little bit of gene-tech). Heck, Gorillas don't have special super organs.
Absolutely, indeed, you can go closer than Gorillas - Neanderthals were almost certainly considerably stronger than humans (as I think I mentioned in this thread) and they'd be largely indistinguishable from humans in terms of genomic DNA.

That said, as much as the background keeps saying that the SM are genetically engineered, with few exceptions (canis helix, for example) it doesn't seem that the inductee actually has his DNA altered. Then again, the muscles are stimulated to grow via hormonal control anyway, so perhaps I'm nit-picking. The point is that I've not seen any evidence (outside perhaps the primarchs themselves) that the Imperium is capable of or willing to truly practice non-somatic genetic engineering.


However, this gene-tampering might lead to gorilla-looking women though:wtf:
Exactly. Or if they're having Space Marine organs implanted, they'll end up looking pretty much like male Space Marines once you've mucked with their skeletal growth and muscle bulk.


Oh, yes, the problems tall people meet in life are always ignored. I'm amazed no writer has yet noticed that a space marine doesn't fit through a standard door. Or that a spaceship could be made quite marine assault proof simply by making the corridors as small as human users need, saving space, materials, armor requirements etc etc etc.
Ian Watson did go to considerable lengths to show how much trouble Inquisitor Draco had trailing his pet Space Marine around with him, even without his armour. More "fitting in" than "fitting through doors" but still.

I know it's come up in games of Inquisitor! Especially when using my 54mm-scale Terminator (which is more like 100mm tall...)



We have to remember that Marine armour has tons of extra stuff in it, like life support, medical equipment, monitoring devices, etc. Those take up space as well. Hell, the Marines might contain all their **** and... the other stuff in their legs. Not to forget that it might employ a spaced armour, which would make it larger as it needs space between the outer and inner layer. This would give it a limited protection from things like bolts (as they would detonated in the space) and shaped charges.
All plausible. Although I find it hard to believe the additional bulk of their greaves is for urine storage... I'll see if I can find that cutaway of astartes armour...


As for the shape of the Sister shoulder Guard, old style terminator armours (the Mk. 0 or what ever they were during the Crusade) had similarly shaped thingies. And they didn't look as thick as the current ones either.
True enough. Which is to say that the older armours varied in their protective qualities - all suits were not made equal, even if they're all "power armour" (and a 3+ save in 40K). The old "studded" plates in particular were less protective. Conversely, the most advanced armour like the Mark VIII has additional plating on the abdomen, neck and pauldrons.

I've given this quite some thought - check out the article on Space Marines in the second edition of Dark Magenta (http://www.darkmagenta.co.uk/magazine.html)if you'd like to see the Inquisitor values.


Oh, when will man learn it's not the size, but how it is built. There is no telling whether or not Sister armour are built with better quality materials than SM ones.
There is no telling indeed. Although it does immediately beg the question - if the sisters can get the same protection from their paper-thin armour then why don't the Space Marines make their armour out of that stuff?

I would have to say that sisters armour must be pretty darn good to provide anything close to the massive armour worn by the astartes (just by looking at the pictures I linked to above). But like I said before, even if we agree that the basic armour grants the same protection (the cuisses, for example) we're still in the position that the greaves are proportionally larger on the Marine, which again brings us back to the Inquisitor stats granting larger protection for these values.

madd0ct0r
29-08-2008, 22:41
and that seems fair enough.

a differance in level of protection but you need to a pretty deatailed system to display it.
Maybe if we converted 40K to D100 there'd be a 5 point differance?

solkan
29-08-2008, 22:55
Personally, I think the major problem is that anyone who wants a squad of female Space Marines really isn't interested in a squad of female marines wearing sensible boots and sensible power armor.

Unless you're Eldar, you're going to end up with the "Russian swimmer" physique anyway.

MrBigMr
30-08-2008, 00:26
All plausible. Although I find it hard to believe the additional bulk of their greaves is for urine storage... I'll see if I can find that cutaway of astartes armour...
It has to go somewhere. I mean, everyone poops, right? Brings back the fun old discussion of the backpack actually burning all the waste the Marine produces. If that's true, I'll demand that all art of Marines include stinky lines rising from them, flies buzzing around them and the vents of the backpack stained brown.

I remember some artwork or something in which one could see inside the guard through those holes on the inside of it and it looked like there was empty space there (wires and such of course, but not really a one solid piece).


There is no telling indeed. Although it does immediately beg the question - if the sisters can get the same protection from their paper-thin armour then why don't the Space Marines make their armour out of that stuff?
Why doesn't the Guard get carapace, hellguns and better training to make them better? SM armour is the way it is because it serves its purpose. Simple design means it's easier to fix on the field and also easier to produce in vast numbers (a big, cheap shoulder guard shot to pieces is cheaper and easier to replace/fix and an expensive, fine material shoulder guard that would need proper tools and training). A Marine can slap a sheet of durasteel from a wreck on his armour as an improvised fix, but can you imagine a Sister being able to do something like that to hers?

Marines need something simple and workable so that they can survive weeks behind enemy lines or in battle without proper supplies. Come on, the Rhino is just a scifi tractor, isn't it? It's simple in design and yet pretty much the workhorse of many factions.


I would have to say that sisters armour must be pretty darn good to provide anything close to the massive armour worn by the astartes (just by looking at the pictures I linked to above). But like I said before, even if we agree that the basic armour grants the same protection (the cuisses, for example) we're still in the position that the greaves are proportionally larger on the Marine, which again brings us back to the Inquisitor stats granting larger protection for these values.
But the extra protection is only temporary really. Any of those improved sections take a hit and the extra 3 points just peels away. At least that's what I understand from reading the rules.

madd0ct0r
30-08-2008, 14:07
you've got me wanting to do a backyard hick SoB army now.

Gingham robes, patched and raw welds on the rhinos and straw hats for the seraphim.
damn. this is really very tempting.

RusVal
30-08-2008, 18:53
Unless you're Eldar, you're going to end up with the "Russian swimmer" physique anyway.

Why do people keep saying that? Think for a moment, guys! Compared to today, there have been 38,900+ years of evolution, mutation, and an unknown amount of genetic tinkering during the DAoT by the time the Imperium has rolled around. You'd think that in all of those years, at least one engineer was lonely enough to try to build a hot amazon chick with giant knockers!

I mean, crud, isn't there some sort of Inquisitorial edict (71\14-GG if I was to hazard a guess) that says any attempts to make female Space Marines must give specimens large guns?

For all we know, the implants needed to make feMarines might be different than the ones of the Astartes, including a pair strategically placed juuust right.

Okay, rant over. :p

Doctor Thunder
30-08-2008, 19:22
Unless you're Eldar, you're going to end up with the "Russian swimmer" physique anyway.

Why do people keep saying that?

I don't get it either, especially because male marines are not overly bulky in the official fluff. There's even a picture on the GW website of a marine out of his armor:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/ (Halfway down the page)

So, if male marines are well built but not musclebound, then why would female marines have to be musclebound?

Personally, I think a female marine outside her armor would look like she-hulk, just not green.

Clockwork-Knight
31-08-2008, 00:15
Nah, they would look exactly like male Space Marines. By the way, it's rather page 3 that you see hints of male astartes physics. Page 2 still has scouts and neophythes in training. The best example of an Astartes is in Bloodquest. Looks like every german nazy super soldier that has ever been imagined, which is of course what GW wants the Astartes to look like. :D

Doctor Thunder
31-08-2008, 00:22
By the way, it's rather page 3 that you see hints of male astartes physics. Page 2 still has scouts and neophythes in training.
No, look again. He has been fitted with the plug in points for the black carapace, which is the final organ they receive.

Firaxin
31-08-2008, 03:42
No, look again. He has been fitted with the plug in points for the black carapace, which is the final organ they receive.

I thought the black carapace was only on the marine's chest, in place of his ribs? That looks like his back to me.

StarshipBOb
31-08-2008, 05:49
Personally, I think a female marine outside her armor would look like she-hulk, just not green.

I personally think a female Space Marine would kinda look like the Diablo 3 female Barbarian, but that's going by the standard given on GW's website on how an unarmored SM looks like.

MrBigMr
31-08-2008, 08:28
I thought the black carapace was only on the marine's chest, in place of his ribs? That looks like his back to me.
Phase 19 – Black Carapace. This is the last and the most distinctive implant. It looks like a film of black plastic when it's growing in the tanks. This is removed from its culture-solution and cut into sheets which are implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso. Within a few hours the tissue expands, hardens on the outside, and sends invasive neural bundles deep inside the Marine. After several months the carapace will have fully matured and the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and transfusion points cut into the hardened carapace. These artificial 'plug-in' points mesh with features integral to the powered armour, such as the monitoring, medicinal and maintenance units. Without the benefit of a black carapace, a Space Marine's armour is relatively useless.

D.B.
31-08-2008, 18:02
Six pages in, yet no-one's mentioned Samus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samus_Aran) yet. I mean, she wears a "Power Suit" with giant shoulder pads and hunts aliens for goodness sake! Surely not a bad template to go basing a female suit of power armour on? :D

MrBigMr
31-08-2008, 19:41
Maybe because this isn't warchan and she isn't a lost primarch...

But to be serious, I don't think I've ever heard her being mentioned here. But I do know a guy who has wanted to do a Samus conversion. He runs Eldar, so a jetbike autarch (morph ball) seems like a good bet regarding rules.