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kaulem
20-08-2008, 19:08
Playing a game vs DE yesterday, we came under a wierd situation with the hydra, i'll try to be clear:



I flank charge the hydra with cavaly like so:
H=Hydra
h=Handler
C=Cavalry

Step 1:

..........C
...HH..<-.C
...HH..<-.C
..hHHh.<-.C
..........C


So the result after the the charge looks like this (with the handlers on either side):

Step 2:

....hC
...HHC
...HHC
...HHC
....hC


After two rounds of CC, this is what is left:

Step 3:

....h
...HH
...HHC
...HH
....h


Now, I have a unit of infantry that can charge from the southern part:

Step 4:
i=infantry

....h
...HH
...HHC
...HH
....h

..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii


And Finally for the question....

What happens to the handler, as the Monsters & Handlers rule says that the handler has to be ignored when charging and the the charge is always performed against the Hydra model.

So is the result (A):

....h
...HH
...HHC
...HH
....h
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii


or (B):

....h
...HH
...HHC
..hHH
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii
..iiiiiii


THanks

athamas
20-08-2008, 19:17
the result would be the first one given that the hyrda acts as a skirmishing unit.. and thus ranks up once in combat!

Condottiere
20-08-2008, 20:27
I'd agree that the first one is the case.

Furthermore, since there is no contact with the hydra, the models of the infantry unit can attack the handler.

athamas
20-08-2008, 20:46
yes, but only the handler, and then they will only be able to inflict 2 wounds maximum...

mattschuur
21-08-2008, 01:39
I agree with the first option. It is one of the only ways to kill a beastmaster other than a hochland long rifle, template weapons or magic that targets the specific models.

matt schuur

Lord Dan
21-08-2008, 06:47
More importantly, you need to stop charging cavalry into hydras. ;)

Condottiere
21-08-2008, 06:57
Cavalry seems the most suitable option.

Hvidponi
21-08-2008, 08:58
Yeah... My blood knight kastellan with 4 flaming S 7 attacks is very good at killing hydras...

RTB01
21-08-2008, 13:04
Yeah... My blood knight kastellan with 4 flaming S 7 attacks is very good at killing hydras...


so is anything with flaming attacks - so put the p*nis down and stop waving it! :p

kaulem
21-08-2008, 13:06
other than p*nis waving, it was a unit of black knights with the hellfire standard (flaming attacks)

but the buggers missed all their "to hits"

so the ensuing reply attacks from the hydra destroyed my unit. + since I flanked charged him, no one could attack the handlers as all cavalry models were touching the hydras flank.

:(

kaulem
21-08-2008, 13:08
hmm, just though of something, since the hydra moves as a skirmisher, should'nt it have turned to face the attackers?

like this:
......C
....hC
HHHC
HHHC
....hC

Ethos
21-08-2008, 13:18
yep - the Hydra should have turned to face.

Condottiere
21-08-2008, 14:08
The Hydra is not a skirmisher, it just moves like one if the Handlers remain alive.

Ethos
21-08-2008, 14:50
Oh. Then I'm wrong. It's a monster, and so has flanks.

Thanks Condottieri.

theunwantedbeing
21-08-2008, 15:08
Skirmishers in combat dont turn to face the enemy anyway, they're stuck being ranked up.

Condottiere
21-08-2008, 15:58
But surprisingly, a Hydra has flanks and a derrière.

kaulem
22-08-2008, 15:08
So, to recap.

The Hydra:
moves like a skirmisher,
is charged like a monster (flanks, rear, etc),
ranks up like a skirmisher,
and I can charge it's flank hence attack the handler even though the BRB says I have to ignore the handler when charging if already engaged on another flank?

I'm a bit confused...

Count Zero
22-08-2008, 16:11
dont forget that the hydra charges like a monster rather than a skirmisher - no 360 charge arc for them, which is a shame as they could have done with a bit more power

xragg
22-08-2008, 16:17
You ignore the handlers on the initial charge. After they are in CC, like all skirmishing units, you treat them like a "normal" r'n'f unit. Overflow models remain in ranks, even though they get no rank bonus, etc.

szlachcic
22-08-2008, 16:18
...which is a shame as they could have done with a bit more power

You must be kidding, the Hydra is easily one of the best buys in the new DE book and may possibly be one of the best monsters in the game.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 16:19
It's a skirmisher (US more than 1, so no penalty for shooting at it - actually, you'd get +1, I think, because it's a large target?) for all intents and purposes except for when declaring the initial charge against it. At that point, you would focus the charge on the Hydra, and pretend that the handlers aren't there.

But, once it gets into combat, it is treated as a skirmisher - aka, a normal unit (being that a skirmishers lines up in combat just like a normal rank and file unit) - and then can be charged as normal - calculating the range to the handler(s) (because they "form...up with the monster in the same way as you would for a unit of skirmishers. They will fight as normal in the ensuing fight").

You might have people arguing that all charges must be measured to the monster... but, unless there is an FAQ stating that you must do so, then I would be in favor of measuring to the handlers, as there seems to me to be more weight on that side of the issue.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 16:25
dont forget that the hydra charges like a monster rather than a skirmisher - no 360 charge arc for them, which is a shame as they could have done with a bit more power

uh... um... unless I'm mistaken -

BRB, page 67.

Monsters and Handlers

Some rare units are made up of a monster that is goaded into battle by a small group of handlers or beastmasters. These units normally move as [B]skirmishers[B].


Not to be rude or mean, but the Hydra still moves as a skirmisher, even though it's a monster.

Count Zero
22-08-2008, 16:26
You must be kidding, the Hydra is easily one of the best buys in the new DE book and may possibly be one of the best monsters in the game.

lol yes, i have 2 of the old ones 1 new one, and thinaks to a mistake by GW 1 'wounded' new one. shame i doubt i'll ever play a big enough game to field 4.

Count Zero
22-08-2008, 16:28
@ethos, yes it moves like a skirmisher (so through trees etc with no penalty), but i am 100% that it cant charge like one, but like a monster. i cant give you a page reference for this, but i am sure someone else can.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 16:32
perhaps you're right. I'll check on some FAQ's.

Or better yet... just call GW!

xragg
22-08-2008, 16:45
pg 67, 2nd paragraph under Mon&Han, 3rd sentence. They tried to cram alot of information into one sentence, which can easily form alot of confusion. Use the monster when determining charges and its arc of sight.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 17:15
I am so dumb. It's right there.

Dum... dum... dum!


I don't like reading, it hurts my eyes alot. Thanks for the help.

Than W
22-08-2008, 22:46
lol yes, i have 2 of the old ones 1 new one, and thinaks to a mistake by GW 1 'wounded' new one. shame i doubt i'll ever play a big enough game to field 4.

Play a Mighty Empires campaign - one of the events you can pick is "Elites" allowing you to have as many Rare/Special choices as you want in your army.

I've been using this to get 2 Hydras in 1000-1500 point games, and its pretty nasty.

Gabacho Mk.II
23-08-2008, 03:44
Play a Mighty Empires campaign - one of the events you can pick is "Elites" allowing you to have as many Rare/Special choices as you want in your army.

I've been using this to get 2 Hydras in 1000-1500 point games, and its pretty nasty.



Sorry, but I must ask this:

Just how 'cool' is it to bring 2 Hydras into a 1,500pt game???



Honstly now.
:rolleyes:

Than W
23-08-2008, 04:05
I was doing the same thing under the 6th edition army book when the majority view was (incorrectly IMO) that Hydras were underpowered. While I fully agree the current Hydras are too powerful for their points, I really like the (old) model - its why I picked DE in the first place.

If people want to complain about overpowered Hydras, they should take it up with GW, not with players who are simply taking options the rules let them take.