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Ageman
20-08-2008, 22:12
so, simple question, i dont think there is relevent fluff on it, so it could be personal opinion, due to kriegs universal conscription (as stated in siege of vraks i think), are their women in the death korps?

ironcurtin117
20-08-2008, 22:16
I would guess so. But then again, it may be that women are expected to produce more and more children to feed the machine. I see the Krieg(-ians? -ans?) as a sort of Nazi mindset in terms of patriotic duty extending to all members of society and all that. Basically, the women provide the materials and men used by the Korps

Green Shoes
20-08-2008, 22:20
I took it more like all of the men who meet the (probably really low) standards go into the Guard, and all the male dropouts of the Korps and the females run the world of Krieg and live normal day-to-day lives, albeit in a "last man on Earth" type of vibe.

Death Korp
20-08-2008, 22:24
I believe: Model wise no. Fluff wise Yes.


Thats what i think. They mentioned something about 'Vitae Womb birthing techniques' as i am reading the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour book at the moment. Also mention 'universal conscription' too due to the Krieg Civil War.

Hope that helps :)

DK

Drogmir
20-08-2008, 22:57
I took it more like all of the men who meet the (probably really low) standards go into the Guard, and all the male dropouts of the Korps and the females run the world of Krieg and live normal day-to-day lives, albeit in a "last man on Earth" type of vibe.

Actually the standard to get into the Korp's Guard is ridiculously high, first they have to be born (either standardized or by cloning). After going through their basic training (think Starship Troopers but more people die), they then spend days on their surface world playing wargames against other units. People die there too. Only then are they considered ready to ship out to actual Guard fighting.

But I haven't really read anything on the role of females, I would guess they're forced into a stage of simply forcing more babies for Krieg to churn out for their Tithe.

DapperAnarchist
20-08-2008, 23:46
Kriegers, almost certainly...

And standards for all Guard regiments are high. The best of the PDF are the guard.

Sai-Lauren
21-08-2008, 09:00
Actually, I postulated on another thread that it's possible that the women have their ovaries harvested for the vitae birthing systems - remember that as Kreig is all but a glowing cinder, a radioactive and chemical wasteland, so if the children were kept in underground bunkers under they reached puberty, then had their ovaries/testes harvested, it would prevent mutations from creeping into the gene pool.

After that, they can be sent to the surface to do whatever work is needed, sent to the guard or wherever - being technically male/female, but really only being genderless drones.

A guard regiment from Krieg could well be made up of individuals who were once male or female. They only have numbers remember, not names.

Kind of explains why they're so fatalistic and ready to die.;)

madd0ct0r
21-08-2008, 10:17
Last time this thread surfaced somebody postulated how the vitae womb worked:

endless conveyer belts of lobotomized, limbless women, either pregnant or giving birth.

heretics bane
21-08-2008, 11:12
Like the cyclons had in Battle star galatica, just vast farms of women drugged up.

Gunner
21-08-2008, 11:37
Women are to important to the birthing of krieg numbers to just be expended as infantry men!
Also they are based on WW1, says it all really.
Not everything in 40k has to be Politically Correct. I mean sure, if you ask any member of staff they'll say that it is, but they have too.
If 40k is so politically correct then why aren't all military personnel referred to as Infantry person or Guard person?

DarkMatter2
21-08-2008, 13:13
I mostly imagine Kriegian women as endlessly pregnant and giving birth. Women Krieg soldiers don't really fit the feel IMHO.

ChaosTicket
21-08-2008, 14:42
You really think Krieg citizens are Natzis? I see them more like WW1 trench fighting german soldiers. Coats, helmets, visors, rebreathers, plenty of gear, and guys working pairs of heavy weapons in the mud.

Women fighting as warriors would actually be a good idea, as then the gene-pool would be stronger.

Krieg for the most part is barren as they fought a war to kill their traitorus planetary governor, and now it's wasteland. The people of Krieg now have to live in underground complexes. Their Imperial Guard regiments are their greatest resources because of their devotion to the Emperor and expertise in trench fighting.

Ageman
21-08-2008, 16:16
i kinda allways thopught, that yeah krieg needs alot of women for birthing, but they have millions of fetuses in jars growing so why not throw more meat (female meat) into the grinder, and since they all wear gasmasks, no reason to think there arnt a few.

swordbob
21-08-2008, 16:58
I believe: Model wise no. Fluff wise Yes.


Thats what i think. They mentioned something about 'Vitae Womb birthing techniques' as i am reading the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour book at the moment. Also mention 'universal conscription' too due to the Krieg Civil War.

Hope that helps :)

DK


That first sentence pretty much sums up every IG army.:)

Gunner
21-08-2008, 17:02
Maybe some regiments like Cadians we know there some in the Elysians from the novels
though some people don't consider that official fluff but Death Korps of Krieg? NO!

DapperAnarchist
21-08-2008, 17:27
The Kreigers are based on the WWI German Army, yes - but they're not it. Saying "oh, there were no women in the German Army" doesn't mean there are no women in the Korps.

Wolflord Havoc
21-08-2008, 17:54
'Vitae Womb birthing techniques' strikes me as something I don't really want to find more about (although I did ask this very same question when the book first came out).

I would imagine that women not only work at making babies but might also do all the other tasks normally done by the men 'not in uniform' akin to the WW2 land army or working in factories etc.

However all we have to work on is 'Universal Conscription' and 'Vitae Womb birthing techniques'.

So any of the ideas put forward could be true.

Also and it has been mentioned elsewhere - (Kreig being the German Word for War not with standing) the DKoK look like the French Army as it did in the 1914 - 1918 war (hell as it still looked in 1939!!) rather than the German Army.

Xandros
21-08-2008, 18:15
Women in the Death Korps is just wishful thinking on the part of sex-starved geeks (I know how that works :D). The Death Korps is based on an era and a culture where women didn't fight in wars. You need to forget notions of equal rights and opportunity, That just didn't exist at the time. Women were considered inferior to men, especially as soldiers. Krieg is not Cadia. Krieg is not Catachan, nor Tanith. There's quite a few regiments that don't include women and one shouldn't strain one's mind to find excuses why they should.

Ageman
21-08-2008, 19:35
i like to think im not sex starved seing as im only 15, but my friend had made me a dirama of two krieg soldiers, one with a womans head an gas masks modeled onto to it hanging from the side and she was holding the banner and it read "united we stand, united we die" cause there were corpses fresh after a batlle, i just wanted to know what people thought of that fluff wise, and if the diorama had merit, its a beautiful piece and at the end of the day thast whats important

madd0ct0r
22-08-2008, 11:18
Hell yeah. That sounds fantastic. very nice.

Good execution is the best thing to overcome fluff nazis

ChaosTicket
22-08-2008, 14:15
i like to think im not sex starved seing as im only 15, but my friend had made me a dirama of two krieg soldiers, one with a womans head an gas masks modeled onto to it hanging from the side and she was holding the banner and it read "united we stand, united we die" cause there were corpses fresh after a batlle, i just wanted to know what people thought of that fluff wise, and if the diorama had merit, its a beautiful piece and at the end of the day thast whats important

I would like to see it but it would be great all round, even worth trying for an award.

I have no reason to think that there are any strong patriarchal tendencies in the Imperium, but on each individual world maybe, on worlds like Catachan I would expect their to be less against women as anything men can do women can do it too if they try, but I would still prefer women pilots in the Imperial Navy.

Krieg citizens are completely loyal the Emperor and as such I would not expect them to do anything like waste resources, omit women from their regiments, or anything else to that effect.

Clockwork-Knight
22-08-2008, 14:35
It wouldn't be a waste of ressources, if women were forced to produce children time and time again. After all, Imperial Armoury Volume 5 notes that it's quite strange for Krieg to produce so many regiments. And we really don't know anything about the vitae womb birthing techniques. But if Dune is any indication, it may really mean to turn normal women into some kind of grotesque deformed birthing factory, and of course because these techniques aren't refined, the birthing stress kills the birth-givers quite often, forcing to turn many women into baby machines very often, so that they don't have time to become soldiers (with some notable exception, as always).

ChaosTicket
22-08-2008, 14:42
You mean the Krieg people use their women as bio-factories like the Bene Tleilax?

Personally I think that they simply extract the eggs on women before they become soldiers and then the eggs are used to make Krieg soldiers, as "Natural" birthing is a highly flawed thing for humans, and risking both potential mothers/soldiers and their children would be a horrible waste of resources.

Legion actually had that as background, the Imperial Guard there being Genetically engineered regiments from Terra before the Great Crusade began. Although for the most part the book is just a banuch of Black Library fiction, gentically engineered soldiers from Terra were a fact before the Emperor began the Great Crusade.

Clockwork-Knight
22-08-2008, 14:49
Legion takes place in the times of the Great Crusade, making any kind of advanced bio-engineering from that time certainly lost over the millennia. In the 41st millennium, some things have toned down in effectiveness.

Of course, the question remains what 'vitae womb birthing technique' really means. If it's like in Dune, I see very few women in Kriegian regiments, simply because they have... other things to do... :p

ChaosTicket
22-08-2008, 15:10
Not necessarily as having hordes of women in (likely) comatose states until they give birth and againt until their are too old to be used is likely less useful than having test tube babies.

The Adeptus Mechanicus even have whole parts of the Fortress Worlds devoted to creating test tube babies for use as servitors, and the Adeptus Astartes have large parts of the Fortress-Monastaries to create new organs from fallen Astartes Progenoid Glands.

Clockwork-Knight
22-08-2008, 15:21
And these worlds (Cult Mechanicus and Astartes) are different than the normal regualar worlds of the Imperium (in fact, the Astartes and the Machine-priests have ancient pacts connecting each another). Many technologies aren't wide-spread, and things are done the old-fashioned way. We know that cloning of sentient beings is out-right forbidden (which is why it's only used to create some stupid servitors, the rest being humans lobotomized and forced to become a cybernetic zombie). We also know that this 'vitae womb thingie' is only suspected, and even that thing is considered heretical, the only reason why nobody really knows how the Kriegs manage to create so many soldiers is that so far, nobody went to see for himself (and so far, the Kriegs have shown to be devoted, no need to look for heresy, at least, for now). :D

ChaosTicket
22-08-2008, 15:56
Where is this "Life Bomb" thing you speak of?

It would be quite easy for any planet to due many things as Adeptus Mechanicus are major parts of worlds. They are the ones that have control over factories, shrines on worlds, and even bases for research and weapons development.

Krieg is a Death World, but at the same time have massive underground living spaces and factories. There would be a moderate to large adeptus mechanicus presence there.

I would like to know why you think there are human farms and women are brain dead husks producing children like Skaven females.

Clockwork-Knight
22-08-2008, 16:06
Because we're talking about Warhammer 40k, and many things are inspired from Dune, after all. Also, it would fit the image of the planet Krieg, moreso than having women fighting at the same time (with some notable exception). And primarily because of the mention of the rumored heretical 'vitae womb birthing technique'.

After all, the Imperium is not a happy place, but the most terrible and cruel regime ever imaginable.

Nazguire
22-08-2008, 16:12
Last time this thread surfaced somebody postulated how the vitae womb worked:

endless conveyer belts of lobotomized, limbless women, either pregnant or giving birth.

That would have been me.

My theory was that they were giant servitors, specially designed to be in constant labour and pregnancy at the same time, constantly being fertilised and giving berth simultaneously. Hips made of titanium, lobotomised servitor, many tubes of semen and ova being pumped in, nutrients for new embryos and foeti etc.

A truly grotesque conceept, but suiting the nature of the Guard.

Deamon-forge
22-08-2008, 16:47
intresting thread, as iv been thinking the same thing,
my idea was somthing like out of the Matrix with all the people/humans in little bath things, and in 40k there in there till they grow bigger then a servitor scoop them out etc, and then a new embro would be added, which only takes a matter of days from a embro to a teenager.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2008, 05:03
Days is perhaps a little too fast. Weeks or one to three months would be more fitting to the current technoloy-level of the Imperium. Especially then if it would be something that must be made in secrecy, and without help of the Cult Mechanicus.

madd0ct0r
23-08-2008, 09:23
hmm, I wonder if they've the same trouble with zygote acelleration that Corvax did.

Personally, I suspect they grow at a normalish rate but leave Krieg at 13

Boruta
23-08-2008, 19:46
with that masks, helmets and heavy trenchcoats its nearly imposible to recognise if krieg soldiers are male or female.
if Krieg females are in army they will be very muscular (almost trained male level) with low level of fat (+ soldiers dont wear pushup bra, rather sport one) and it will be very hard to recognise gender...

(sry for bad en)

Brother Siccarius
23-08-2008, 22:08
I believe: Model wise no. Fluff wise Yes.

DK

How the hell would you be able to tell the difference? They're wearing trench coats over, standardized body armor, over uniforms, and wearing full gas protective gear. There's no hair or skin showing and they would all appear to have similar body types under all that gear.

Chem-Dog
24-08-2008, 00:38
Actually, I postulated on another thread that it's possible that the women have their ovaries harvested for the vitae birthing systems -



Not everything in 40k has to be Politically Correct.


Legion actually had that as background, the Imperial Guard there being Genetically engineered regiments from Terra before the Great Crusade began. Although for the most part the book is just a banuch of Black Library fiction, gentically engineered soldiers from Terra were a fact before the Emperor began the Great Crusade.

And the harvested females were employed as a demi-officer corps AND as entertainment ;) ;)


Legion takes place in the times of the Great Crusade, making any kind of advanced bio-engineering from that time certainly lost over the millennia.

Ahem, Space Marines? The tech is still available in places, no reason to assume the Kreig don't hold some pre-heresy technologies.


How the hell would you be able to tell the difference? They're wearing trench coats over, standardized body armor, over uniforms, and wearing full gas protective gear. There's no hair or skin showing and they would all appear to have similar body types under all that gear.

Not to mention the constant virtual malnutrition and the high rad count would do plenty to interfere with any secondary sexual characteristics (boobs and hips, ect) and culture would irradicate any aesthetic differences like long hair....
I would hazard a guess at the "vitae womb" process to be more likely an in vitro fertilisation process. Using some really basic knowledge and papering over the cracks with the phrase "In the grim and distant far future" here goes....
Combine IVF with an artificial womb (even just in the last trimester) and you massively increase the level of "Productivity" by 50%, further incorporating it with certain fertility treatments you could easily expect 3-4 offspring from a single "term".
Of course, even the partial rearing in an artificial womb would create quite distinct social problems, it's easy to imagine that with no maternal bond the offspring could be quite maudlin, replace the maternal link with a sense of duty to the "state" and tell the child often enough that it's simply another commodity to be expended whilst depriving them of any childhood and you have an army of personality absent demi vat grown soldiers with a martyr complex, perfik!

Clockwork-Knight
24-08-2008, 01:53
Ahem, Space Marines? The tech is still available in places, no reason to assume the Kreig don't hold some pre-heresy technologies.Space Marines especially don't have access to many older technology. See how archaic and shrouded in mystery most technical things have become, how much technology the Cult Mechanicus has lost itself, how creating new Space Marines has become a magical process that takes much much longer than in the times of the Great Crusade, and the very fact to create Terminator Armour (and to update it) has been lost (according to Index Astartes) or at least forgotten in many sectors of space.

Also, Krieg isn't noted at all to have some phantastic pre-heresy technologies. If anything, it's your standart ugly ex-hive world turned death world where after the 500 years of constant warfare, the most highest technologies have been lost (again).

gamer2456
24-08-2008, 03:01
I kinda like to think of the possibility of Death Korps females like the Team Fortress 2 pyro. Under the uniform, anythings possible :P

Vaktathi
27-08-2008, 01:11
I would imagine that there are women amongst the regiments sent out by the planet krieg, just that we don't have models for them (that would be cool though)

I would imagine that they aren't too picky about who they send to the front, and given Kriegs conditions, a large number of women may not be fit to give birth (Off to the front with you!) and among those that are, who knows what happens, especially with the alternative reproductive procedures in place, they may just ship everyone off to the front, or as was positied earlier, they may just remove reproductive organs from soldiers and grow new ones in labs or something.

We just really don't know, but given the planets history, I would imagine that women would form a good amount of the bodies in the regiments.

ironcurtin117
27-08-2008, 03:08
IDK if this is fluff or not, but perhaps, they operate like the Vostroyans and have the men "plant their seed" before they ship offworld, then the women give birth numerous times with numerous partners (to diversify the genepool) before they reach an age where they can no longer have kids and then are shipped off themselves. IDK, stab in the dark and the most effective non-monstrous idea I could think up

Malevon
27-08-2008, 05:20
Where is this idea that the Imperium isn't sexist coming from? It's described as the "most brutal regime imaginable;" surely this regime does not include sexual equality on most planets.

I can't say for sure that they have factories of limbless, lobotomized women constantly giving birth, but I think I can say with some certainty that women by and large do not serve in the Death Korps. The fact that it might be impossible to tell them apart from the men is not proof in and of itself that there are women. Nowhere in any Death Korps background does it mention female soldiers. Until it does, it is not logical to conclude that they exist.

Vaktathi
27-08-2008, 05:42
Where is this idea that the Imperium isn't sexist coming from? It's described as the "most brutal regime imaginable;" surely this regime does not include sexual equality on most planets. Individual worlds may have gender biases and other such prejudices, but the Munitorum and the Administratum generally don't (and in earlier editions, RT and 2nd ed, these organizations were described as gender-blind), all they care about are the numbers, the jumbly bits really don't matter to them. Given that the Munitorum is directly in charge of Krieg, it would seem that anyone who could fill a uniform and pass training and isn't needed elsewhere would be on the front lines (and that many women may be incapable of child birth given the environment, and thus available for duty if the Munitorum actually is using all fertile females for simple child birth). Given that there is plenty of established fluff for mixed gender and all female regiments, it doesn't seem to out of the ordinary to think that Krieg has female soldiers.


but I think I can say with some certainty that women by and large do not serve in the Death Korps. Based on what evidence? We have nothing to the contrary and in fact IA:5 states that they have universal conscription (p.87)


The fact that it might be impossible to tell them apart from the men is not proof in and of itself that there are women. Nor is it possible to say they are men by the same token.


Nowhere in any Death Korps background does it mention female soldiers. Until it does, it is not logical to conclude that they exist. It really doesn't mention anything on the subject, the only evidence we have of *any* sex serving in the Death Korps is by the names of those written about in IA:5. Given that FW probably wasn't thinking too much along the lines of the major background of the Imperial Guard as a whole and the in depth analysis we are having here, they just reverted to the normal English practice of the default pronoun being "he" and martial male characters. That said, many of the examples and soldiers they talk about or describe aren't given genders either, they are simply described as "guardsmen" or "soldiers" it doesn't seem too unreasonable to think that Krieg *would* have female soldiers.

Johngs
27-08-2008, 05:45
Last time this thread surfaced somebody postulated how the vitae womb worked:

endless conveyer belts of lobotomized, limbless women, either pregnant or giving birth.

Some people...