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Nicha11
21-08-2008, 07:02
Dark Elve's are born warriors, they spend all their time raiding other's and fighting eachother.
They Have a better leader (Malekith) and use incredibely powerfull chaos magic which the High Elves are to scared to use.

They seem to attack Ulthuan pretty regualrily and always do alot of damage.
(They would have won last time but for Teclis)

Most of the High Elf forces are Militia, and are completely out classed by the Dark Elves.

So how come Dark Elves haven't just destroyed them?

Condottiere
21-08-2008, 07:18
To be more precise, why haven't they lost? Any really determined High Elven pursuit and invasion would destroy them.

In the end, it's a matter of balance, the Dark Elves neutralize the Chaos threat from the north in the New World, and the High Elves have to ensure that the Vortex continues to function. In the meantime, they deeply despise one another and occasionally try extreme prejudicial attempts at resolving their differences.

Lord Lucifer
21-08-2008, 07:26
Malekith is good, but he's not amazing. And he can't be everywhere, and there's a fair amount of rivalry between everyone below him. And even a huge rift in society between the cult of Khaine, the cult of Pleasure, and the Sorceresses. The High Elves don't have these rifts.

The Dark Elves are no more 'born warriors' than the High Elves are, and both place great emphasis on every man, by necessity, being a competent soldier. If the Druchii practice a little more swordplay, that'd be easily evened out by the superior displine of the Asur


The Druchii use Dark Magic, which is the accumulated eight winds together in their raw form, the Asur use High Magic, a strictly formalized application of all eight winds. Both are incredibly powerful, Dark Magic is simply easier and riskier than High Magic (which is also a potent anti-Dark Magic medium to work with)


They attack Ulthuan... and it usually costs them. Things generally go poorly for an invading army unless they're lucky and/or have a VERY well executed plan (or superior force)


The reason the Dark Elves haven't 'won' yet is because, brother, it ain't easy ;)

Lord Lucifer
21-08-2008, 07:29
To be more precise, why haven't they lost? Any really determined High Elven pursuit and invasion would destroy them.

In the end, it's a matter of balance, the Dark Elves neutralize the Chaos threat from the north in the New World, and the High Elves have to ensure that the Vortex continues to function. In the meantime, they deeply despise one another and occasionally try extreme prejudicial attempts at resolving their differences.

I think the best answer in both cases would probably be "Because they would destroy themselves in the process"
Without a lot of time and gradual change, I don't see a comprehensive and conclusive war ending well for either side.

Nicha11
21-08-2008, 08:04
I don't see a comprehensive and conclusive war ending well for either side.

The only way I see there war ending in the short term is
Malekith, Finubar or Tyrion drawing the Godslayer from
the altar of Khaine.

Problem is Malekith is too scared, Finubar isn't a warrior
And Tyrion is just too goody good good.

So I guess they will just keep fighting till they both become so weak
That they get taken out by Chaos.

But I still reckon Dark Elves will probably win.

Jerrus
21-08-2008, 09:33
Have the Dark Elves ever won anything?

They don't really have any "real" accomplishments, do they?

Maybe that's why they are so emo....

Jedi152
21-08-2008, 09:42
I think someone been reading too much into army book propaganda ... :D

Lord Lucifer
21-08-2008, 09:49
army book propaganda ... :D

You just repeated yourself :p

Nicha11
21-08-2008, 10:22
I think someone been reading too much into army book propaganda ... :D

Lol you are probably right.

Genrazn
21-08-2008, 10:32
Dark Elves is a lost cause. Being recruited by Chaos on a daily basis yo.

Seriously when your two top tier guys are working with chaos you know your screwed :P

Plus most liekly whats gonna happen. Wood Elves winning just cause they arent involved.

isidril93
21-08-2008, 11:25
cos the high elve have all their warriors in ulthuan while dark elves leave quite a few of thier warriors behind. also the high elf lands are more united than the dark elf lands.

The Anarchist
21-08-2008, 21:27
well GW dosn't want anyone to wina nything, it would damage the status quo, so its never gona happen.

also basic military doctrine is that invading and holding enemy territory is far harder than defending territory you already hold. the support of the general populace and knowledge of the territory is a serious advantge.
As a side factor the DE might have more warriors, but they wouldn't have as many wariors on Ulthuan invasion force as the entire home armies of High Elf nation. whilst Melekith might be a good warrior he can't be everywhere at once (as stated above) and his udnerlings would not have the organisation or cohesion of a defending HE force on home territory.

one thing thats puzzling to me is even when the DE loose in Ulthuan they retreat completly to Naggaroth. even if they loose their battles desicivly why do they never make a real effort to keep a solid foot hold Ulthuan. a basic tennant of an invasion is having a secure bridgehead into enemy territory, yet the DE loose in Ulthuan and seem to retreat completly, ratehr than keep some of what they ahve taken for the next time they wana kill some elves in white dresses?

just my two cents.

Condottiere
21-08-2008, 23:56
They have tried several times to hold on to Anlec.

Freak Ona Leash
22-08-2008, 00:07
And according to the new army book, the Shadowlands are more or less a contested zone between the two powers of the High Elves and the Dark Elves. The Shades fight the Shadow Warriors, The Shadow Warriors fight the Shades and occasionally some Dark Elves get uppity and launch a raid to recapture Anlec.

ryng_sting
22-08-2008, 20:49
Using your citizenry as your soldiery has cons as well as pros, and it is rather disturbing to see how few realise this: If your birth rate and induction rate are near-identical, what does your death rate entail...?

The Anarchist
22-08-2008, 22:49
They have tried several times to hold on to Anlec.

I understand they have tried to hold onto Anlec, my point is they never seem to put real effort into it. if you can push an invading army half way across Ulthuan before being seriously slowed, that means alot of troops. so why is it the DE are alwasy pushed back and out of Anlec. they HAVE plenty of competant generals like the HE, arguably more able troops, and are on the defensive in holding Anlec. so the DE and HE numbers should be relativly even, as whilst the HE are on homeground they dont ahve anywhere near the number of warriors at the constant ready, or the number of elves in the standing armies. surly this should leave the DE if not with an advantage, at least on even footing, so why can't they hold onto one small area of Ulthuan!?

Melekith is more than 5000 years old, and was at one time considered one of the foremost Generals of the united Elven race, and thats when he was still a young prince! so to add to that hes had a further 4500 years experience, and hates the HE with a passion, wanting to see them all dead. you would think all this combined he would understand the basic principle of a safe beach head in enemy territory. so why has he not made far far more serious efforts in keeping Anlec among many other areas of Ulthuan for future invasions?

ok that was bit of a rant, sorry everyone.

Chris2358
22-08-2008, 23:54
I think High Elf warriors are better than Dark Elf warriors. The FB rules certainly suggest (ASF suggests not only great discipline but also a tremendous amount of teamwork) it but I know fluff and rules are a world apart. Also the High Elf soldiery are not militia. A rotary system of being citizens and then soldiers is very similar to how the Roman legions worked, and no one can really call them militia.

I do think there are more Dark Elves however, no idea what gives me that presumption but it just seems to make sense. And quantity does have a quality of its own.

Malekith is powerful but he is a wussy since he got hit with the business end of the White Sword and only in half control of his own nation.

I don’t think that the Dark Elves should have won by now, maybe its because the High Elf navy is so good that it is difficult to get onto Ulthuan and stay there?

The Inspector
22-08-2008, 23:54
Dark Elve's ...spend all their time ...fighting eachother.
There. You answered your question in your first line.


The only way I see there war ending in the short term is
Malekith, Finubar or Tyrion drawing the Godslayer from
the altar of Khaine.
Nah, Teclis will betray his brother Tyrion and kill Malekith. Perhaps not in that order, but the numerous fluff pieces have built up the eventual story arc that Teclis will 'pull a Raistlin' and betray his morals for ultimate power.

Teclis heavily resents his brother for his physical strength and popularity, and Malekith's prophecy leaves the most likely candidate to be a High Elf male mage of great power to be his eventual murderer.

I realise I've just thrown a massive cat amongst the pigeons with the above statement, and will enjoy the ripple effect it has ;)

Nicha11
23-08-2008, 09:04
There. You answered your question in your first line.

They do have infighting but they are complete loyalty to Malekith.
Their infighting is just to kill off the weak.
They are probably more loyal to (or scared of) Malekith, Then the
High Elves Nobles are loyal to eachother to eacthother.

And In the Shadow Lands the High Elves aren't really on
Home ground, nobody really lives there (except Shadow Warriors)
And HE they don't have any fortress' there either.

It's mentioned alot the the HE are a "dying race"
but i've never heard that said about the DE.
Why's that?

Leogun_91
25-08-2008, 12:02
Their infighting is just to kill off the weak.
Do you realise how many those are when you have an universal toughness of 3.

Condottiere
25-08-2008, 12:34
Do you realise how many those are when you have an universal toughness of 3.You make it sound like a suicide pact.

stormblade
25-08-2008, 12:48
They do have infighting but they are complete loyalty to Malekith.
Their infighting is just to kill off the weak.
They are probably more loyal to (or scared of) Malekith, Then the
High Elves Nobles are loyal to eachother to eacthother.

And In the Shadow Lands the High Elves aren't really on
Home ground, nobody really lives there (except Shadow Warriors)
And HE they don't have any fortress' there either.

It's mentioned alot the the HE are a "dying race"
but i've never heard that said about the DE.
Why's that?

But in most cases a High elven general will not mysteriously disappear before or during the battle.

Lord Lucifer
25-08-2008, 13:02
Leogun, you Win The Thread :D

heretics bane
25-08-2008, 13:03
They do have infighting but they are complete loyalty to Malekith

Erm not really, the only reason hes still in power is because hes the biggest bad ass around, if he was to appear weak there would be a que out the door of people looking to lob his head of. He really only keeps check on the slannesh cult to make sure they dont go completely of the walls

Vikingkingq
26-08-2008, 04:32
one thing thats puzzling to me is even when the DE loose in Ulthuan they retreat completly to Naggaroth. even if they loose their battles desicivly why do they never make a real effort to keep a solid foot hold Ulthuan. a basic tennant of an invasion is having a secure bridgehead into enemy territory, yet the DE loose in Ulthuan and seem to retreat completly, ratehr than keep some of what they ahve taken for the next time they wana kill some elves in white dresses?



I understand they have tried to hold onto Anlec, my point is they never seem to put real effort into it. if you can push an invading army half way across Ulthuan before being seriously slowed, that means alot of troops. so why is it the DE are alwasy pushed back and out of Anlec. they HAVE plenty of competant generals like the HE, arguably more able troops, and are on the defensive in holding Anlec. so the DE and HE numbers should be relativly even, as whilst the HE are on homeground they dont ahve anywhere near the number of warriors at the constant ready, or the number of elves in the standing armies. surly this should leave the DE if not with an advantage, at least on even footing, so why can't they hold onto one small area of Ulthuan!?

Melekith is more than 5000 years old, and was at one time considered one of the foremost Generals of the united Elven race, and thats when he was still a young prince! so to add to that hes had a further 4500 years experience, and hates the HE with a passion, wanting to see them all dead. you would think all this combined he would understand the basic principle of a safe beach head in enemy territory. so why has he not made far far more serious efforts in keeping Anlec among many other areas of Ulthuan for future invasions?

ok that was bit of a rant, sorry everyone.

Taking the different wars in order:

Civil War - pushed back to within Nagarythe, Sundering forces retreat to Naggaroth. Following battle on the Blighted Iisle, Dark Elves no longer have a foothold on Ulthuan.

First Invasion - Dark Elves invade following the War of the Beard, Tethlis the Slayer pushes the Dark Elves back to the Shadowlands, then pursues them and sacks Tor Anlec, killing all Druchii within. Following recapture of the Blighted Isle, no Druchii remain on Ulthuan.

Second Invasion - Dark Elves invade following the assassination of King Aethis, but can't penetrate General Menethus' defenses at the Griffon Gate. Menethus pushes on to Tor Anlec, and the city is sacked again. The Druchii are pushed out of the Shadowlands, and no longer have a foothold on the mainlaind.

Third Invasion - During the Great War Against Chaos, the Dark Elves invade, and make it nearly to Lothern before being defeated at the Battle of Finuval Plain, where the entire Druchii army is destroyed following the defeat of Malekith at the hands of Teclis and Tyrion. In the following campaign, Tyrion pursues the fleeing Druchii all the way to Tor Anlec, which is sacked for at least a third time. By the end of the war, there are no Druchii left on Ulthuan.

----------

Notice a pattern? The Druchii do try to keep a foothold on Ulthuan, as evidenced by the re-establishment of Tor Anlec whenever they invade. But the High Elves aren't stupid, so their first military objective is the eradication of all Druchii.

And while the Druchii may have more numbers than the Asur, they can't really garrison the entire Shadowlands with enough forces to keep it down when the Druchii army is totally annihilated and the civilian settlers are massacred every time they lose a war.

El Haroldo
26-08-2008, 04:59
Nah, Teclis will betray his brother Tyrion and kill Malekith. Perhaps not in that order, but the numerous fluff pieces have built up the eventual story arc that Teclis will 'pull a Raistlin' and betray his morals for ultimate power.

Teclis heavily resents his brother for his physical strength and popularity, and Malekith's prophecy leaves the most likely candidate to be a High Elf male mage of great power to be his eventual murderer.

We're talking about the same Teclis who believes so strongly in encouraging, guiding and supporting humanity as the world's last chance of holding back evil?

Perhaps an understatement to suggest he's a good guy. I really don't see him going 'damn I wish I had pecs like my bro, I'll knock over my great great great great great uncle, re-unite the kingdom of elves under my iron fist and that'll teach that unbelievably charasmatic and good-looking bastard!'.

Your prophecy theory is interesting though.

The impression I've always got was if anyone's going to go off the rails, it'll be almighty warrior Tyrion who succumbs to the curse of Aenarion and draws Khaine's kitchen knife...

Lord Lucifer
26-08-2008, 10:03
I'd be amused if GW went with something interesting and introduced a successful slave revolt in Naggaroth that ends with a human or orc or something on the throne in Malekith's absence. Intensely amused.

I'd also like to see more done about the massive civil unrest that must've resulted from the events of the Cult of Pleasure during the Storm of Chaos, it disrupted Malekith's planned assault on Ulthuan to a degree. Druchii society isn't overly stable, it is maintained only by the threat of violence after all

Condottiere
26-08-2008, 10:18
Crassus, I mean Malekith, would probably crucify the entire slave population. Hands across America style, perhaps? Or impale them, though that would seem more Vladian.

Yenlim
26-08-2008, 11:19
Two pages and noones answered the simple reason?

Dark Elves are the "Bad Guys" and as per the lessons taught in "Bitter Emnity 101" GW will never let the "Bad Guys" win.

Leaving aside the non-marketing reasons behind this (such as GW focussing effort on attracting new younger players instead of Vets - who are almost universally attracted to the "Good Guys") you have ye olde reason:

Bad Guys generally want an end to all things. Chaos wants to turn the Old World into a Realm of Chaos, Nagash and the Vampires want to turn the world into a living graveyard, Malekith wants to unravel the Vortex on Ulthuan (unleashing the Daemons) etc.

All the "Good Guys" want is to keep the status quo. So in the long run, for the future of the game, the story and everything associated with it, it's easier to let the "Good Guys" win everything as otherwise the world would come to a very abrupt end...

Geordie Vampire
26-08-2008, 11:39
Two pages and noones answered the simple reason?

Dark Elves are the "Bad Guys" and as per the lessons taught in "Bitter Emnity 101" GW will never let the "Bad Guys" win.

Leaving aside the non-marketing reasons behind this (such as GW focussing effort on attracting new younger players instead of Vets - who are almost universally attracted to the "Good Guys") you have ye olde reason:

Bad Guys generally want an end to all things. Chaos wants to turn the Old World into a Realm of Chaos, Nagash and the Vampires want to turn the world into a living graveyard, Malekith wants to unravel the Vortex on Ulthuan (unleashing the Daemons) etc.

All the "Good Guys" want is to keep the status quo. So in the long run, for the future of the game, the story and everything associated with it, it's easier to let the "Good Guys" win everything as otherwise the world would come to a very abrupt end...

i have to argee with Yenlim because if the DE finally destroyed the HE the would unleash an unstoppable force of deamons that no one could defeat. and going off on a slight tangent but still a point Yenlim made the VC should have conquered the empire because for every person not just warrior that died should have been risen back into undeath therefore the VC should have a huge numerical advantage. but the status quo that good guys win keeps the world balanced and doesntaffect any race to greatly. because was the DE to finally win and wipe out the HE could they really sell miniatures for a race that no longer existed (same goes for VC and the empire)

Lord Lucifer
26-08-2008, 12:57
Two pages and noones answered the simple reason?

Dark Elves are the "Bad Guys" and as per the lessons taught in "Bitter Emnity 101" GW will never let the "Bad Guys" win.

Leaving aside the non-marketing reasons behind this (such as GW focussing effort on attracting new younger players instead of Vets - who are almost universally attracted to the "Good Guys") you have ye olde reason:

Bad Guys generally want an end to all things. Chaos wants to turn the Old World into a Realm of Chaos, Nagash and the Vampires want to turn the world into a living graveyard, Malekith wants to unravel the Vortex on Ulthuan (unleashing the Daemons) etc.

All the "Good Guys" want is to keep the status quo. So in the long run, for the future of the game, the story and everything associated with it, it's easier to let the "Good Guys" win everything as otherwise the world would come to a very abrupt end...

Heh.
Ha ha...
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

So wrong. So very, tragically wrong.
Chaos will eventually triumph and destroy everything. This is hardwired into every aspect of the background that there really is no getting away from it.
The Dwarf race is crippled by millenia of misfortune (Elves, Orcs/Goblins, Skaven, Chaos, volcanos, and perhaps undead and lizzies, all slowly but surely reducing their numbers, and then the volume of their people lost to migration to the Empire of Man).
The Elves are a dying race, unable to replenish their numbers, and locked in a bitter civil war that sees no sign of relenting.
The Lizardmen pursue a lost plan no-longer understood in the hopes of maintaining the works of the Old Ones, with no guarantee that they're actually getting it right.
Humans... oh lord, humans... the most corruptible race ever, are the soul-food that has allowed the forces of Chaos to gain ascendency, it is the Mortals of Chaos that are the most treasured by the Great Four. Humans have created the undead, have created the cults of the forbidden gods, have created the template of civilization the Skaven mirror and use to bring about the destruction of all order. And the Humans' greatest enemy is man.

The warp-gates continue to spew their corrosive, poluting, reality-destroying force of pure magic into the world urging on its' death throes.
The 'good guys' are destined to disappear, along with the 'bad guys'

And who exactly are the good guys? Every faction operates exclusively on self-interest. Every faction engages in acts of open genocide, causes untold suffering to satisfy their religious dogma, and doesn't care a wit about anyone else beyond their immediate practical use.

If we DO apply 'good' and 'bad' to factions, you'll probably have the Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High and Wood Elves, and Lizzies on the Good Guys side, with Chaos, Undead, Greenies, Dark Elves, and Chaos Ratmen on the Bad Guys side of the equation.
And the rule is CLEARLY that 'The Good Guys are NOT allowed to win!'
Want proof?
Karak Eight Peaks. Goblins and Skaven stomp Dwarfs. Dwarfs try to re-take, Skarsnik stops them. Repeat this for every lost Dwarf hold, the Dwarf kingdom is allowed to lose holds, but never reclaim them. THe only ray of optimism for the Dwarfs is Alrik Ranulfsson, who has avenged every grudge in his book of grudges (without specifying what they are)

Look at EVERY Chaos incursion, they always end the same way. Chaos forces invade, cane the 'good guys', then get halted, and the good guys are too exhausted to do anything about it.
Look at the Storm of Chaos. Archaon and his horde get humiliated by the remains of the Ostland armed forces, the Jaegerkorp of Hochland (the smallest and least populous province in the Empire), and the campaign army of Middenheim (NOT Middenland, which is held in reserve to defend Middenland if Archaon should choose to press on past the city of Middenheim), holding off the largest army ever assembled, with the smallest Imperial army ever formed in response to such a threat, and spending two weeks pushing Archaon's invasion further and further back from the walls of Middenheim.
Then Karl-Franz arrives, with the full Imperial army drafted from the over-populated Breadbasket provinces, with support from Thorgrim Grudgebearer (a battle-hardened Throng of Dwarf veterans is always appreciated) and Teclis of Ulthuan, and puts the entire Chaos force to flight, cutting down the majority of them as they flee, and pushing Archaon back to Brass Keep in the Middle Mountains. The Chaos forces were comprehensively and quite conclusively defeated in that campaign.
And what were the ONLY consequences of this?
Two and a half Imperial provinces are devestated, the Empire's greatest hero is murdered, Orcs swarm all over the Empire, Mannfred von Carstein is once more on the ascendence, there is religious strife as elements of the Cult of Ulric are attempting to reopen the wounds of the Sigmarian Heresy, the Cult of Ulric is shamed by the results of the Storm of Chaos (the sigmarite champion saved the city of Ulric) with the Cult of Myrmidia gaining much more power, and a schism in the Cult of Sigmar looms as priests choose who best represents their faith, the potentially tainted warrior Volkmar, or the slick political shark Esmer (who scandalously refused to adopt a Dwarven name during his reign as Grand Theogonist, betraying the heart of the Cult), Archaon now has a beachead in the heart of the Empire to act from, and not a single Chaos Lord has taken Archaons CATASTROPHIC FAILURE as a cue to assert their OWN leadership ambitions (Chaos Lords never struck me as the forgiving type, it's interesting to see that they're all universally a bunch of pussies as weak as mother's milk)

This is what happens when the good guys win



What do the Good Guys want?
To destroy any and all threats, and gain ascendency over those that can be contained.
The Empire wants to wipe out the Greenskins, the unholy marauders, the Beastmen (including Skaven), the Undead, the Lizardmen (clearly lizard-demons, Sigmar would never approve), turn Leonceur into a client-king who owes fealty ultimately to the Empire, and make the Elves and Dwarfs junior partners in any trade dealing. Simple really.
For any of the other 'good guys', just change the order the names appear in and you've pretty much got it.
Status quo? No way. The status quo is VERY bad for the 'good guys' who are CONSTANTLY beset by violent opposition. There needs to be a few more genocides before the status quo starts looking attractive


And GW markets to the Evil Is Cool crowd. The kiddies like things with Spiky Bitz, it's why Chaos has become increasingly superficial for a long time now, why Elf background is so painfully light, and why every 'good guy' army has been growing increasingly dark (they've always been dark when you look past the facade, it's just far less subtle and nuanced now)


I'm sorry, but I really have to disagree with everything you assert there.

Want me to tie it back on topic?
How many times have the High Elves ever assaulted Naggaroth? And how many times was the result not entirely one-sided in favour of the Dark Elves? ;)

stormblade
26-08-2008, 13:07
Erm not really, the only reason hes still in power is because hes the biggest bad ass around, if he was to appear weak there would be a que out the door of people looking to lob his head of. He really only keeps check on the slannesh cult to make sure they dont go completely of the walls

So the DE are essentially orcs?

Lord Lucifer
26-08-2008, 13:19
You think ambition and a sociopathic willingness to capitalize on the weakness of others is exclusive to the Orcs?
The US election season is gearing up, take a look at that to see some human examples*


*this is not to imply US citizens or politicians are any more sociopathic than any other nation, merely pointing out their election season is gearing up and highly visible... I don't think Belgium's political scene gets much coverage outside of Belgium, for instance

Count Demandred
27-08-2008, 04:44
The Dark Elves will never ultimately win. It's detirmental to GW as a whole, because if they win obviously the High Elves will have been vanquished.

And what's the point in that?

The limbo keeps things going.

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-08-2008, 04:58
Because you can't wipe out either of the armies. It's just there to set a tone of constant fighting with each other, it's not suppose to make sense or anything.

There isn't really any explanation as to why either of the two armies haven't won. It's just because GW don't want either of them to win.

Koryphaus
27-08-2008, 05:23
You think ambition and a sociopathic willingness to capitalize on the weakness of others is exclusive to the Orcs?
The US election season is gearing up, take a look at that to see some human examples

No, I think that any pragmatic individual will take advantage of a situation when it presents itself, be they Orc, Elf, Human, Ogre or Worm. :D

I'm sick to death of the USA election process. We start hearing about it on our news programs so early in the piece that the USA probably hasn't heard yet.. :rolleyes:

Alathir
27-08-2008, 05:23
The Dark Elves are a martial people (although not so much that they outshine High Elves) one of the main reasons I always saw Dark Elves losing (besides being dishonourable scum who gave into weakness :p) is because the military organization of the Asur allows them to constantly make use of fresh troops who havent been fighting the same battle for weeks on end, as opposed to the invaders who are forced to keep using the same warriors. Doesnt matter how superior you are, eventually fatigue will set in - and it doesnt help when your foe is tireless.

PARTYCHICORITA
27-08-2008, 16:06
We're talking about the same Teclis who believes so strongly in encouraging, guiding and supporting humanity as the world's last chance of holding back evil?

Perhaps an understatement to suggest he's a good guy. I really don't see him going 'damn I wish I had pecs like my bro, I'll knock over my great great great great great uncle, re-unite the kingdom of elves under my iron fist and that'll teach that unbelievably charasmatic and good-looking bastard!'.

Your prophecy theory is interesting though.

The impression I've always got was if anyone's going to go off the rails, it'll be almighty warrior Tyrion who succumbs to the curse of Aenarion and draws Khaine's kitchen knife...

This is an interesting take on things. I don't know that much about either Teclis or Tyrion (i've only read about them in the 6th and 7th edition army books) but it seems unlikely to me Teclis would ever betray his brother and Ulthuan. However he is indeed bitter for his physical weakness and shouldn't be so happy about the lack of credit he gets compare to his brother (he saved the empire with only 2 dudes the first time he was there and one of them died) and it would be an interesting turn of things if he was the one to draw the sword of khaine and finally slay Malekith. Whatever happens after that should be rather interesting.

Condottiere
27-08-2008, 18:03
Elric's Dilemna

Nicha11
27-08-2008, 22:57
I realise that GW would never let DE win.... that would screw over alot of people.

But if GW was out of the equation would DE have won by now?

Every time they invade they seemed to get stopped by great HE heroes.
So surely there will come a time when there are no more HE heroes.
And when that time comes HE are screwed.

BrainFireBob
27-08-2008, 23:08
Where does the concept the Druchii outnumber the Asur come from?

The Druchii faced the brunt of the war against Chaos, they were devastated during the Sundering, and their society has a high internal level of murder. More, all Druchii are the descendants of the least populous of what, 9 Elven kingdoms?

If anything, my strong impression is that the Druchii are outnumbered greatly by the Asur, and that this is why they supplement their ranks with monsters.

I'm greatly curious as to where this idea that there are more Druchii comes from- since even the Asur having a lower birth rate is offset by their higher initial population and lower death rate (ie, Druchii die more often from wars, slaves, and internal struggles).

R Man
27-08-2008, 23:37
I agree. The original Dark Elves were the remenence of a traitor army that lost. There was hardly likely to be many of them. Not to mention that they reached Naggaroth they had nothing and had to build the country from scratch. Not only that but the logistics of invading a country are massive. The Dark Elves would have to be supplied by sea to some extent while the High Elves have easy access to resources.

Having said that the Dark Elves probably breed more and are better able to replace losses in the short term which makes it seem like there is more of them

flESh
27-08-2008, 23:47
I was wondering about that as well.
I think the fact that a great deal of Druchii society is based on slavery speaks for itself. Like Chaos Dwarfs, they seem to need the extra hands to keep things running, and to compensate for their own numbers.
Dark Elves may not be greater warriors than High Elves, but the relatively few Dark Elves that exist are certainly free to go to war should they wish to do so, with thalls doing all the dirty work at home.

In addition to Monsters, Dark Elves also accept women on the field of war in the form of witch elf regiments. High Elf armies on the other hand seem almost purely made up of the male population of Ulthuan.

El Haroldo
28-08-2008, 00:38
In addition to Monsters, Dark Elves also accept women on the field of war in the form of witch elf regiments. High Elf armies on the other hand seem almost purely made up of the male population of Ulthuan.

No, all elf armies are made up of both female and male troops. Look at the models or read the damn army book or something.

Condottiere
28-08-2008, 05:37
I realise that GW would never let DE win.... that would screw over alot of people.

But if GW was out of the equation would DE have won by now?

Every time they invade they seemed to get stopped by great HE heroes.
So surely there will come a time when there are no more HE heroes.
And when that time comes HE are screwed.True, but you don't see the HE calling in their allies and arranging a Normandy style invasion either - the DE aren't beloved in either Italy, France, Germany and possibly Spain.

flESh
28-08-2008, 06:17
No, all elf armies are made up of both female and male troops. Look at the models or read the damn army book or something.

Who took the jam out of your doughnut?
I can safely say that there is not a single high elf woman included in any high elf regiment. In fact, the only model of a high elf woman that's in the current edition of their army, is a mage - that doesn't exactly prove the rule, rather... It seems an exception to it.

Anyway... Would anyone be so kind and direct me to the phrase in the high elf book that says anything about women on the battlefield? I'm just curious, for I do not actually own thier armybook myself, I've only occationally read in it.

Arnizipal
28-08-2008, 11:50
More, all Druchii are the descendants of the least populous of what, 9 Elven kingdoms?
And all the other High Elves who believed Malekith's cause was just (which were all Cult of Pleasure members and large parts of Ulthuan's standing army).


Not to mention that they reached Naggaroth they had nothing and had to build the country from scratch.
They had a good number of (almost) fully functional floating fortress-cities.


In addition to Monsters, Dark Elves also accept women on the field of war in the form of witch elf regiments.
Not only Witch Elves. Regular spear and crossbow armed troops also accept female fighters. And the old Hydra had a female beastmaster, implying this is a unisex job as well. And then there are the Convents of Sorceresses...

Lord Lucifer
28-08-2008, 13:16
Which doesn't prove either way if one or the other has numerical superiority.

The only argument I've seen put forward for Dark Elves outnumbering High Elves is 'They have more sex! C'mon, Cult of Pleasure, duh!', and the only argument against being 'They rely on slaves, surely this means there's not enough of them'

Which I should note does NOT mean there isn't enough Dark Elves to function on their own, it could merely be a cultural thing

flESh
28-08-2008, 13:56
True. The fact that they use slaves might not mean a whole lot. But I still view it as a slight indication that their numbers are somewhat lacking. For something to become culture, it has to be practiced for a while, and for something to be practiced continuously on a national scale, it has to be of some importance. Why bother if it wasn't?

But I'm just spitballing here... Really.

Lord Lucifer
28-08-2008, 14:04
It has to be important to the culture in question, not necessarily important in any practical sense.
So it could be the case that the Druchii simply don't number enough to support a reliable military AND keep society running during a war. It could be that.
But then again, it could be the fact that the Druchii landed in a potentially quite hostile land peopled by marauders, Orcs/Gobbos, High Elf colonies, and who knows what else, and had to subjugate the landscape a little. What do you do to a conquered people to drive the point home AND increase your wealth? You enslave them.
Or it could be that they have a cultural need to keep slaves to do the dirty work that is beneath them, and so they have something to reinforce their own superiority. These lesser races cannot be allowed to sully the pure land of Ulthuan, true home of the Druchii, but these base creatures are perfectly acceptable in the colony of Naggaroth.
Or they need the numbers to keep the sacrifice alters nice and wet with fresh blood, and there simply isn't enough Druchii to spare.

It isn't necessarily that there's not enough Druchii, it's an extension of their cultural values and it's hard to pick a single reason without something further in the background to indicate it

ryng_sting
28-08-2008, 20:18
The Dark Elves raid and slave out of necessity as much as sadism. As Gav T points out in WD and in the new book, the problem became clear when when the Black Arks reached Naggaroth. Malekith and his followers were warriors - no carpenters, architects, farmers, engineers, artisans, or miners in the bunch. You need a workforce to quarry stone for your cities, extract ore from the rocks, raise crops. So the solution is simple: steal them.

Arnizipal
29-08-2008, 11:12
Which doesn't prove either way if one or the other has numerical superiority.

Oh, I never said that. I just wanted to point out that the Druchii are not only made up of (decendants from) Elves of Nagarythe.

Lord Lucifer
29-08-2008, 15:06
And I just like the sound of my post-count increasing :p

I'm just bored and throwing posts at the background forum because it's been so long since I posted here, I'm on a wicked WFB bender and am needlessly clarifying points to kill time
Being sick will do that to you :)
Sorry if it looked like I was implying you were making a claim either way though

Alathir
30-08-2008, 06:03
No, all elf armies are made up of both female and male troops. Look at the models or read the damn army book or something.

I have to disagree, the High Elf armies contain almost no female warriors. I have always seen this as a result of their fairly traditional view of male and females, which stems from the relationship and duties of the Phoenix King and the Everqueen. I also see it as a reaction to the fact that the Druchii do make use of women as soldiers; 'oh look at those brutes! They even send their women to war!'

Condottiere
30-08-2008, 14:43
While I'm not fond of the last book, the Draka series by S. M. Stirling might illustrate some aspects of a society with citizens geared for war, and slaves and an underclass keeping the economy functioning. This includes the issue of females as frontline soldiers.

Basically, everyone fights, because society can't afford to have half it's population as non-combatants, against enemies that outnumber it, both domestic and foreign.

Also, High Elves do have some female combatants, but these are the exception, rather than the rule.

Disciple of Caliban
31-08-2008, 22:32
I think the idea that the Dark elves are more populous than the high elves comes from the fact that they're never referred to as a dying race, and indeed its suggested they are prospering rather nicely in Nagorrath.

Lets look at it this way, if they were seriously short of numbers they wouldnt be attacking Ulthuan. Having lived for 5000 years Malekith wont be short on patience, and he'd have no problem waiting until he was in a better position before attacking, besides, he must get a laugh from watching all these pheonix kings dying while he's just chilling in a tower.

As for the slaves thing, thats largely a cultural practice now, rather than a necessity. When they first arrived at Naggorath the Dark elves were a race of nothing but warriors and needed slaves to get things done. Now however i think they keep slaves more as a status symbol than out of necessity, as well as being Warriors the dark elves are also skilled in other fields, so can do things for themselves, they just prefer not to :)

FlashGordon
01-09-2008, 18:34
I always thought that Malus Darkblade was the one going to kill Malekith. At least hes not such a corrupted ******* as malekith(in DE terms of course).

Arnizipal
01-09-2008, 19:47
From what I've read Malus is pretty messed up. How do you figure Malekith is even more corrupt?

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
01-09-2008, 21:34
I would say that Dark Elf/High Elf numbers are roughly the same - but the Dark Elf army is bigger than the High Elf one due to the entire society being based around war. Their entire economy needs raiding and fighting to survive, and obviously defense garrisons are needed to prevent Chaos from breaking through the guard towers to the north so due to these factors it's reasonable to assume that an invasion force would be nowhere near the full size of a Druchii army. Couple these reduced numbers with the High Elves having a home advantage and a way of getting reinforcements more easily, the the fact that Dark Elves are much more suited to hit-and-run skirmishes than attrition warfare and it's a wonder that the Druchii have been able to gain any success in Ulthuan at all (not sure about this but I believe the remnants of Nagarythe have been held by the Dark Elves at varying periods in the history of the war and Shades are constantly raiding and infiltrating this area).

Secondly, I believe that High Elves have naval superiority certainly around Ulthuan simply because Black Arks are costly and hard (impossible?) to rebuild - each one lost is a catastrophe yet smaller High Elf ships are able to sink them.

Basically what it boils down to is High Elves having great advantages in longer fights due to their home being the battlefield and the Dark Elves being unable to take Ulthuan with their preferred tactics.

Condottiere
02-09-2008, 03:51
The High Elves are the leading naval power by a wide margin, plus garrison quite a number of major overseas bases, meant to secure command of the sea, rather similar to the functions and capabilities of the Royal Navy in the Victorian era.

If population figures were equal, I'm sure Malekith would abandon his six cities and launch an all out assault on Ulthuan, since in a war of attrition, the Dark Elves should prevail, at least initially.

ik0ner
02-09-2008, 22:37
Where does the concept the Druchii outnumber the Asur come from?

The Druchii faced the brunt of the war against Chaos, they were devastated during the Sundering, and their society has a high internal level of murder. More, all Druchii are the descendants of the least populous of what, 9 Elven kingdoms?


Most populous at the time of the sundering.

kettan
03-09-2008, 00:24
I have always got the impression, that it is the Elven race that is dieing, and not just the High Elves.
I have also always belived, that there are more High than Dark Elves. The High Elves even know, that they have the strength to win the war and wipe out the Dark Elves. But they also know the victory would cost to much.

You have to remember that the armies of the High Elves are spread all over the world and not just in six cities.

Shamfrit
07-09-2008, 15:31
I am quiet shocked people think there arn't any females in the High Elf army.

There are, there are countless thousands.

They just so happened to be assigned to the Everqueen, something held in far greater esteem than the citizen levies.

Condottiere
07-09-2008, 15:49
I think the Maiden Guard is limited to 100 members.

Shamfrit
07-09-2008, 15:56
Then I was wrong, :D

I still object to any utterance of 'Chaos Ratman' though.

Ultrapaladin
10-09-2008, 07:12
War is no easy task. It costs a tromendous amount of resources that the High Elves can not risk. Warhammer is like a free for all. Attack one guy the other guys attack you. Look at Archaon, Grimgor just butted in and ruined everything.

ChaosTicket
11-09-2008, 20:46
High Elves and Dark Elves are in a stalemate as they are prime enemies but at the same time they have to face various threats like daemons, chaos, whatever enemies they raid/are raided by, etc.

The High and Dark Elves are another thing GW will never make decisive because then they might have to change something for the races like radical new units for a desperate race.

Just as Orcs and Dwarfs won't make any progress on each other and the Humans vs Chaos bttle will always end in a draw.

For the most part I don't know why some other race just doesn't murder the Elves. Times in history the Elves have been attacked by other races and were slaughtered. Grom the Paunch is a good example of a Goblin Warboss that almost conquered Ulthua.

Alathir
12-09-2008, 05:19
know why some other race just doesn't murder the Elves. Times in history the Elves have been attacked by other races and were slaughtered. Grom the Paunch is a good example of a Goblin Warboss that almost conquered Ulthua.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, he almost damaged Yvresse severely - which is far different to almost conquering the whole of Ulthuan.

Condottiere
12-09-2008, 06:55
I get the impression that Yvresse is a little isolated - had his Waagh managed to hold together longer, he would have been showered with Elven attention.

Leogun_91
12-09-2008, 08:42
For the most part I don't know why some other race just doesn't murder the Elves. Times in history the Elves have been attacked by other races and were slaughtered. Grom the Paunch is a good example of a Goblin Warboss that almost conquered Ulthua.Yes but he was the greatest Goblin ever......he could have conquered Uluthuan but he DID conquer large parts of the Empire sacked Middenheim and got the dwarfs to retreat into their mountain holds. If Grom is an example that the elves can be easily murdered by an outsider then surely the same can be said for the Empire. Grom prooves not that the Empire and the elves are weak.....he is just another proof that a well executed Waaagh! is just that dangerous.........Grom for the win!!!

kroq'gar
12-09-2008, 10:11
Grom cut through the Empire because it was fragmented and had a pathetic leader. He was allowed to fight provinces that had no support. The empire at that time was decayed and empire only in name.

When he landed in ulthuan, true he caused some damage, but that was against a single province.

he was hugley successful, but also lucky (something some goblins seem to possess in immense proportions).

Arnizipal
12-09-2008, 11:26
Yes but he was the greatest Goblin ever......he could have conquered Uluthuan but he DID conquer large parts of the Empire sacked Middenheim
For the record he didn't sack it (even though he could). His army just crashed the gates of the city and then left while Grom stole the roof of the Temple of Ulric. :rolleyes:

That's an awful bit of background by the way. I hope this gets ret-conned ASAP.


he was hugley successful, but also lucky (something some goblins seem to possess in immense proportions).
Or maybe it just appears that way because there are so many of them :p

Mannfred
21-09-2008, 12:28
Anyways i'm a bit late into this argument but yea i play both armies but i prefer the Dark Elves.

From what i've always learnt is that roughly the Dark Elves and High Elves have a similar population level however the Dark Elves being a constantly warfare race have a much large standing army. This isn't the amount of soldiers they can gather in a week but like any army that can set sail the next morning....However if u read the High Elves only the Lothern Seaguard is there full time army thats always on alert...

So whenever there is an invasion the Seaguard are usually the first to really kinda hold off the Dark Elves and so there always outnumbers; out classed and yeah over-run....however afterwards; the High Elves always get everyone single male elf they can find and give them a bow; or a spear and a shield....all of the sudden u have a professional army up against nearly a third of the High Elf population....and hence all of a sudden their the ones outnumbered....

In the battle of Finuval Plains the High Elves don't outnumber because a) their not just up against the Dark Elves - their also against daemons, chaos warriors and marauders so yea understandable. b) they hand no one to rally behind previously therefore they were picked off one by one....as the Dark Elves just kicked their ****...

So overall i say that yesh it's a stalemate fight since every-time Dark Elves will win with the element of surprise and the initial numbers however when the High Elves actually muster all their reserves then Dark Elves just get out-numbered and lose....

About the training well hey i mean i would say that Dark Elves are more professional then the average spearmen and archer but still not as elite as a dragon princes ,swordmaster, and phoenix guard. However Dark Elves true strength comes from Hatred not hours of practice...

Okaii wat really pissed me off is someone who said that High Elf navy is superior to Dark Elf navy. I'm sorry champ but the High Elf navy of present will get it's **** kicked once Dark Elves got their hands on Sea Dragons, Helldrakes and other sea monsters...i mean High Elves get mentioned that in the Storm of Chaos they had some sea dragon that would fight for them but seriously it can't be everywhere at once...

Condottiere
21-09-2008, 12:55
Specifically High Elven Navy - they have command of the sea. Dark Elven naval units either have to achieve local superiority or avoid regular sea patrols guarding the approaches to the Elven Homelands, in order to disembark a force to establish a beachhead.

Nicha11
23-09-2008, 00:02
I was under the impression High Elves where still using sails and oars in their boats.

Dark Elves have giant floating cities and castles on the back of massive serpents.

I reckon the Dark Elves would win any time of the day.

prince_dios
23-09-2008, 08:55
Because ASF trumps the Hatred re-rolls? :D

Dark Elf society is very divided, being comprised of clannish groups that don't necessary like each other. Building your army involves bargaining with and bribing these groups. If one of the High Elven kingdoms is attacked, the others immediately pitch in. The Dark Elf economy is dependent on raiding and slave labor, whereas the High Elves maintain trading ports and contacts with other nations.

Speaking as a Dark Elf player(and my purple dice are probably going to start rolling poorly in retaliation for what I'm about to say), Dark Elves have a pathetic feel about them. Elves are a dying race, but the Dark Elves practice infanticide(Shades), make adolescents kill each other for membership in organizations(Black Guard), and have a holiday where Witch Elves can burst into your house and kill you for fun. Of course, despite all the only-the-strong-surviving rhetoric, the Dark Elves are led by a guy who is kept alive by a magical suit of armor.

So we have an army led by nobles(who probably aspire to bump off the general and replace him/her) that includes assassins, witch elves, and executioners - all of whom the non-Khainite Dark Elves are terrified of and there's so much politicking going on that even who joins what spearman regiment is decided just before the battle. Arrayed against a professional army with the home field advantage and better morale. That's why the High Elves always win.

stormblade
23-09-2008, 11:06
I was under the impression High Elves where still using sails and oars in their boats.

Dark Elves have giant floating cities and castles on the back of massive serpents.

I reckon the Dark Elves would win any time of the day.

And yet they are still having trouble with a bunch of Norscan Raiders who use rag-tag or stolen ships to harass their cities and navies.

Condottiere
23-09-2008, 20:07
It's been a while since I last looked at Man 'O' War, but Dragonships with dual large arcane blades attached on their hull that slice through granite (automatic sink) with a higher speed and manoeuver rate would tend to make me think twice of getting in their way, while being flanked by cruisers (Eagleships) and destroyers (Hawkships) with the same movement characteristics, whose primary weapons outrange the enemy's.

Edonil
24-09-2008, 03:14
I've kept up with a lot of the more current fluff, and have to agree with the general idea that GW won't allow either of them to win. However, realistically, this is the point that they would be at right now. Yes, if Malekith felt he could really pull off finally wiping out the High Elves in one blow, he probably would rally everyone to the call. However, he seems to understand the KISS principle (Keep it simple stupid) as well as Murphy's Law. Consider, for example, the Honor Harrington series by David Weber (I know it's scifi, bear with me for the analogy).
In the book Short Victorious War, one nation with a huge numerical superiority (something of three to one in terms of capital ships, and this is naval stuff, so that's a huge advantage) is attacking another nation that consists of one star system. However, the Admiral of nation #1 is paranoid about trying for a single sweeping attack- it has the potential for a knockout blow, but if it fails, then he just lost everything that went in there.
Now then, to apply it here- Yes, I feel that the Dark Elves are more numerous, especially in the military, than the High Elves. However, the problem with any all or nothing attack, is that if it fails...you're screwed.

As to the Dark Elves being divided, yes, politics and ambition have a huge role in the society. But so does pragmatism. Do note that in the Darkblade books, Malus becomes an outlaw for killing his father, because his father was sworn to Malekith. Yes, you could, theoretically, kill the general of the army and take over, but you better hope you can win- if you fail, the consequences will be disastrous.

Grumbak-Thag
24-09-2008, 21:01
dark elves didn't win because they don't have the best heroes:
the best fighter is tyrion & the best magus is teclis.
they are both better than malekith.
then, the inner kingdoms of ulthuan are surrounded by mountains & fortifications that are easy to defend & almost impossible to break (read the griffon door siege in the high elves army book)
most, the most part of the dragon riders & magus stay loyal to the phoenix king.

finally, if malekith wins the war, he won't be able to maintain the vortex that leads the chaos winds outside from the world, so it will blow up & the game would be finished.

and don't forget that many people play high elves and their disappearance can lead to bankrupt^^

Arathai
25-09-2008, 04:49
High elves have led a succesful raid on Naggoroth

ELTHARION

The only thing that went wrong was him getting stabbed by a witch elf

and they have sunk black arks before.

Chapulin
25-09-2008, 08:24
they havent won because HEs always strike first

BattleofLund
27-09-2008, 04:07
they havent won because HEs always strike first

Which really is the heart of the matter of the whole Elven Civil War: the bullies kept hitting Malekith and his friends, calling them names, spitting, shoving, graffiti-ing their Elven steeds and so on. Always Striking First, and eventually souring the mood to the point where the about-to-become-Dark Elves had to Always Strike Back.

A spot of counselling, maybe a small investment in Youth Centres on Ulthuan. Imagine how much grief could have been avoided!

--------

The Dark Elves are murderous bastards, with a mindset that spares no-one except the own individual. How Ulthuan survives Dark Elf invasions is a mystery to me, since all conquered ground should be devoid of High Elves afterwards (killed or enslaved). An ever-increasing portion of the High Elf lands should thus be unable to offer armed resistance, merely extending the transit distance for the next invasion.

It feels like it doesn't add up. I imagine that the authors employed by GW are sub-standard or over-enthusiastic. 'The good and bad forces met on the plains of Flat Ground that day, all living members of all races were present, 99% died in that bloody battle. The next day they fought again, but with bigger forces and higher casualty rates.'
I repeat: it feels like it doesn't add up.

Condottiere
27-09-2008, 04:56
Fog of War, each side tends to over estimate the number of enemies they kill. Plus no BBC/PBS/60 minutes report/documentary to clarify the situation.

Concilliator
06-10-2008, 23:26
I think that if the primary problem with the DE is the fragmentation--- you just dont see it with the HE; but rest assured they are both doomed.

I dont think the HE could take naggaroth though not even if every elf on ulthuan went, basically defender usually wins.