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pinegulf
21-08-2008, 06:40
Hello,

I beg the help of older and fluff-wiser people. Where is the phoenix-lord of my favourite aspect of warpspiders? All other aspects have one, but not mine. :cries: Maybe the nature of spiders doesn't promice long lifespan?

Does roguetrader or some other old source tell us anything?

Malevon
21-08-2008, 06:57
Lexicanum sayeth:


The Warp Spiders have no known Phoenix Lord. However, some claim that the Wraith Spider (Lhykosidae), a similar position on the Kaelor Craftworld is the Phoenix Lord of the Warp Spiders. Others disagree due to the tendancy of Phoenix Lords to have appeared far earlier in history and help found their aspect.

olmsted
21-08-2008, 06:58
i honestly dont think so. i think hes newer then the others and that may stop the phoenix lord for now.

CyberShadow
21-08-2008, 07:12
I always assumed that, technically, every Aspect has a Phoenix Lord, since they are just the first of that Aspect. Warp Spiders and Shining Spears dont have a model (or current background) due to being Aspects that came after the 'big six', but they must exist somewhere... right?

Charax
21-08-2008, 07:20
That depends on how you define Phoenix Lord. if you mean "The first exarch of the Aspect", then yes, there must be a Phoenix Lord of Warp Spiders and Shining Spears (and Slicing Orbs, and god knows how many other aspects)

If you mean "One of the Asur, selected and taught by Asurmen and sent out among the craftworlds to spread their ways and teachings and found further shrines in their names", then no. Asurmen taught no Warp Spiders, nor Shining Spears.

I go with option A, because the second edition Eldar codex practically says that's true.

Hellebore
21-08-2008, 07:45
That depends on how you define Phoenix Lord. if you mean "The first exarch of the Aspect", then yes, there must be a Phoenix Lord of Warp Spiders and Shining Spears (and Slicing Orbs, and god knows how many other aspects)

If you mean "One of the Asur, selected and taught by Asurmen and sent out among the craftworlds to spread their ways and teachings and found further shrines in their names", then no. Asurmen taught no Warp Spiders, nor Shining Spears.

I go with option A, because the second edition Eldar codex practically says that's true.

There should also be striking scorpion, banshee, reaper etc lords that aren't the Asur too.

Seeing as how the only difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch is time and the lack of a shrine (although that last one isn't really necessary), any exarch of sufficient age (who has been completely absorbed into his armour) would be almost as powerful as one of the Asur.

Hellebore

Charax
21-08-2008, 07:49
...and they'd be just that. Exarchs almost as powerful as the Phoenix lords. They would not be Phoenix Lords themselves, hence they are absolutely irrelevant to any discussion about Phoenix Lords.

Bregalad
21-08-2008, 09:57
The only mention of something like a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord, as quoted in Lexicanum, is in a C.S.Goto book. In the same book, Eldar guardians try to block (!) Warp Spiders ... and succeed!! This is just one example, that Goto has no clue and doesn't give a damn about official Eldar background. Just ignore it.

Poseidal
21-08-2008, 10:21
...and they'd be just that. Exarchs almost as powerful as the Phoenix lords. They would not be Phoenix Lords themselves, hence they are absolutely irrelevant to any discussion about Phoenix Lords.

There was a discussion about this subject on this board not long ago.

From the texts in Codex Eldar, it is implied that there are many Phoenix Lords but the most powerful are the named ones who (apart from Karandras) founded the first 6 shrines.

All Phoenix Lords are Exarchs, but not all Exarchs are Phoenix Lords.

Although there's no concrete information, from what we know a Phoenix Lord is an Exarch who has no home shrine and is likely to be (physically) absorbed in the suit.

This is mostly due to Karandras, as we know he is not the originator of the Striking Scorpions.

Adra
21-08-2008, 10:28
One day we may see one. Wouldnt that be cool? A nice new metal Phonix Lord...yummy.

Faustburg
21-08-2008, 11:00
You are missing the vital point that the Phoenix Lords created their aspects, and not the other way around as it works with Exarchs...

Shining Spears and Warp Spiders (and 'Slicing Orbs of Zandros' to name the usual example of a minor aspect only mentioned in background and not in the game) are of course 'aspects', but were not founded by a member of the group of warriors gathered and trained by [whatever his name is, the Dire Avenger Phoenix Lord if I'm not mistaken] at the time of the Fall, but later by someone else.

For a real world comparison, look at various style of martial arts schools formalized by individuals originally trained in other, classical styles, Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do being the obvious example.

Poseidal
21-08-2008, 11:31
You are missing the vital point that the Phoenix Lords created their aspects, and not the other way around as it works with Exarchs...
Untrue. Karandras never created the Striking Scorpions.

Hellebore
21-08-2008, 11:56
...and they'd be just that. Exarchs almost as powerful as the Phoenix lords. They would not be Phoenix Lords themselves, hence they are absolutely irrelevant to any discussion about Phoenix Lords.

Define a phoenix lord. Karandras did NOT start the striking scorpions, he was an exarch within the shrine. Arha started the scorpions not Karandras.

Shrines are not ALL started by the phoenix lord. They may have invented the fighting style, but not every shrine is founded by a phoenix lord. Logically, the Asurya weren't phoenix lords when they founded their shrines EITHER, they were warriors that taught other warriors.

GW disagrees with you:



[...] the most ancient of the eldar exarchs.




Those eldar learned at the feet of their master and in their turn they assumed the mantle of Exarchs, spreading their own teachings throughout the galaxy.


So all those taught by the asurya founded shrines and taught their own skills. They founded shrines too.


In fact the only difference given between a phoenix lord and an exarch is that they lack a shrine to call home:




Unlike the exarchs of the craftworlds, the Phoenix Lords are not bound to a single place, but roam across the galaxy.


Everything that defines a phoenix lord, down to their own description has them in all ways the same as an exarch. Wraithbone armour with the soul of the first wearer that subsumes each new wearer's soul etc.

So define Phoenix Lords in such a way as to avoid any exarch becoming one simply through age.

The Asurya are the FIRST phoenix lords, they aren't the only ones.

This all seems pretty simple to me. Karandras is not the founder of the scorpions, exarchs have founded their own shrines of the same aspect, the asurya have founded their own shrines too.

Where in that does it prevent ANY exarch from becoming a phoenix lord? Everything that defines a phoenix lord also defines an exarch. Remaining sedentary does not change the fighting prowess of a warrior, so the fact that the asurya don't have shrines to hang out in doesn't give them a mystical power.

Hellebore

avatar of kaine
21-08-2008, 19:17
i say that a phonix lord is the one who starts an shrine but in the case of karandas he can be seen as a temp (alright a perminent temp)

DapperAnarchist
21-08-2008, 19:36
Ok, correct me on any part of this.

The Asurya are those trained by Asur, and the founders of the Big Six shrines.

The original Lord of the Scorpion shine ran off.

The Phoenix Lords are Asurya (or referred to as such)

Karandas is the Phoenix Lord of the Scorpion Aspect.

Where does it say Karandas did not study with Asur?

Gdolkin
21-08-2008, 19:59
I think avatarofkhaine and dapperanarchist are right to support Karandras's position as a Phoenix Lord, although that is not the topic of the thread, as it makes me think about how strict these canon criteria we're arguing may be in-universe, to the Eldar. IIRC, he was Ahra's first and greatest student, and given that Ahra fell to Chaos, I think that puts Karandras close enough to Asuryan and the Founding of the Scorpion shrine to 'count as' it's Phoenix Lord as far as the Eldar are concerned.. Expand this kind of perspective to the question of the Warp Spiders, if it helps :)

Meriwether
21-08-2008, 20:11
There is something distinctly Shintoist about the Eldar and their ancestor-gods. There is a fuzzy boundary between 'kick-ass guy from antiquity' and god. I think the definition of the Phoenix Lord is equally fuzzy.

That said, I'd love to have a WS Phoenix Lord model -- as long as he was closer to the 'wow look how cool I am!' of Karandras and farther from the 'oh, man, how much hairspray did this take?' of Jain Zar.

Meri

Horus38
21-08-2008, 20:20
The only mention of something like a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord, as quoted in Lexicanum, is in a C.S.Goto book. In the same book, Eldar guardians try to block (!) Warp Spiders ... and succeed!! This is just one example, that Goto has no clue and doesn't give a damn about official Eldar background. Just ignore it.

QFT

To the OP, no phoenix lord for the warp spiders is listed in the contemporary fluff and the debate on what a phoenix lord is will not change that.

Another interesting point to raise is the figure Hoeth (sp?) that some of the path finders revere. So there may be other "phoenix lord type" figures for other groups/aspects. A good example is the Void Weaver listed in the Warp Spider data sheet in Apocalypse Reload, but in the aforementioned case it is just one of the warp spiders assuming that title for the battle.

Tarota
21-08-2008, 20:32
...and they'd be just that. Exarchs almost as powerful as the Phoenix lords. They would not be Phoenix Lords themselves, hence they are absolutely irrelevant to any discussion about Phoenix Lords.
Pluto has an orbit almost as clear as a planet's. It is not a planet itself, but I think it's plenty relevant to any discussion of planets. (Substitute Ceres or Eris or any of the other dwarf planets if necessary.)

Phoenix Lord is a title, and can be conferred on any Exarch that can make the claim stick. Karandas has done so. No Warp Spider has. Yet :) .

Geddonight
21-08-2008, 23:55
Hrm... It may be due to the way Warp Spiders weren't originally intended for battle; their main purpose, if memory serves, is to repair the webway. Their combat role is ancillary to their primary task, thus making them not a true combat aspect warrior, and less likely to have a "founding" as such.

malika
22-08-2008, 00:20
You might want to check out this little discussion (http://anargo-sector.net/community/index.php/topic,272.0.html) in which the whole Aspect Warrior/Exarch/Phoenix Lord/Asurya concepts are looked into. :)

I basically think that there are more Phoenix Lords out there than the 6 we know, heck there are even more Phoenix Lords for each Warrior Aspect. The Phoenix Lord is a certain state the Exarch achieves sort of speak. The Asurya however are a different thing, while being Phoenix Lords they are also the original students of Asurmen who have obtained a certain legendary status, and are also more powerful then the other Phoenix Lords because they have been around longer.

khorne808
22-08-2008, 00:47
they do have a lord but, it is stated that every spiders fate is to die in the warp so really this is one but because it is their fate to die that we dont know where he is and if hes dead and anybody has taken his place

Messiah
22-08-2008, 20:11
As Malika says there is a difference between the Asurya and the Phoenix lords.

Jonke
24-08-2008, 01:46
Phoenix lords are set apart from other exarchs by the fact that the original/first owner of the suit takes over when a new eldar dons the armour.

If the eldar Bill becomes an exarch he will still be Bill, but sharing memories/skills/experience with all the exarchs who has used the same exarch armour earlier. If Bill instead happens to dress in Karandras armour he will in a way cease to exist, the original Karandras will be the one in control.

(I have no source for this unfortunately, think I've read in some short story in a old white dwarf or in one of the old eldar codexes)

pinegulf
25-08-2008, 06:27
Hmm. Could it be possible that some smaller craftworlds (or even exodites?) have smaller 'forgotten' shrines of aspects? Or even a campain to recover abandoned gear or shrine? (Not to mention spiritstones placed within.) An army lead by forgotten seer of dead world.

-Mmm- to the drawing board!

Lord Raneus
25-08-2008, 16:16
Just for kicks, what would a Warp Spider PL be like gameplay-wise?
I picture something with upped powerblades, AP3 dual deathspinners, and maybe a bonus like roll 3D6/pick two or avoid teleportation casualties for the squad he/she is with due to the PL's expertise.

VanHel
25-08-2008, 23:59
I just always assumed that because of the way they worked that no Warp Spider had survived long enough to become a Phoenix Lord.

StarshipBOb
26-08-2008, 00:09
I just always assumed that because of the way they worked that no Warp Spider had survived long enough to become a Phoenix Lord.

I was thinking that too. There may have been a Phoenix Lord for the Warp Spiders, but he/she probably got sucked into oblivion.

boogaloo
26-08-2008, 00:50
If i'm not mistaken The fine line between phoenix lord and exarch is an ass kickin eldar warrior, and phoenix lords are really more armour that sucked up so many ass kickin eldar warrior souls that it kinda has it's own ass kickin auto pilot. I can't quote the literature as i think it as in the last codex and i'm really far to lazy to track it down at the moment but that is what i always thought a PL was. As for the WS phoenix lord. I can see where the a spider probably dies before this could posibly happen... and a shining spear phoenix lord is really a little too much for in game circumstances. T5 4xI7 S6 WS7 power weapon attacks on the charge with hit and run and 3 wounds on an eldar jetbike with skilled rider and immune to instant death... really?.. fair? how could you really kill it. it would pwn everything. And that's just giving a Shining spear a phoenix lord statline, above and beyond any special rules they may grant it. A WS PL would certainly be more reasonable as far as game ballance is concerned, but as per the fluff problems it doesn't work out so well.

and to whoever said that warp spiders are there to fix the arp not kill stuff... i believe you are mistaken. IIRC the represent the aspect of the little creatures that take act as white blood cells of the infinity curcuit hence the teleporting... and serious weaponry.

As for how a WS PL would work apply PL statline powerblades and dual death spinners, deepstrike, withdraw... and oooooooh lets say fearless warp spiders need not worry for perrils of the warp as they're emotions are masked from any predators in the warp. And fast shot for good measure

Dear god i've created a monster

Lord Raneus
26-08-2008, 01:08
I was thinking that too. There may have been a Phoenix Lord for the Warp Spiders, but he/she probably got sucked into oblivion.

Yeah, that would throw a minor wrench into the "progresses by suit of armor thing."

Although, getting to that...It would seem rather odd that over the millenia, not once has any Phoenix Lord been hit with a weapon that would disintegrate them. So, logically, it'd be nice to extend the same courtesy of not being wiped out and the armor always being preserved to the Warp Spiders as well.

Hellebore
26-08-2008, 02:04
Phoenix lords are set apart from other exarchs by the fact that the original/first owner of the suit takes over when a new eldar dons the armour.

If the eldar Bill becomes an exarch he will still be Bill, but sharing memories/skills/experience with all the exarchs who has used the same exarch armour earlier. If Bill instead happens to dress in Karandras armour he will in a way cease to exist, the original Karandras will be the one in control.

(I have no source for this unfortunately, think I've read in some short story in a old white dwarf or in one of the old eldar codexes)


I would read pages 10 and 11 in the new eldar codex (also in the 2nd ed codex) on exarchs.

There isn't much difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch. They both merge with their armour, their souls merge with the souls in the armour etc.

Hellebore

True Seer
04-12-2008, 03:26
IMO Hellebore is the most correct... The first Phoenix Lords were the Asurya, there are more Phoenix Lords than we are informed of, Karandras was not the founder of the Striking Scorpions, Exarchs and Phoenix Lords are almost exactly the same. The only major difference, and what separates them as Phoenix Lords is the fact that their shrine has been destroyed. They are not necessarily more powerful than the exarchs. Warp Spiders and Shining Spears are the only Aspects that have no known Phoenix Lord. There has never been any official explanation for this by GW or any other reliable source. (But that doesn't mean you can't make one by using exarchs and green stuff!) This topic can be debated forever, but no one can give a real answer as to why they haven't shown themselves as of yet

Lord-Caerolion
04-12-2008, 04:34
Hellebore is correct, in my opinion. I think the main problem is that the Special Characters we have in the Eldar book should be labelled as the Asurya, as Phoenix Lord is kind of misleading in this case. True, they are Phoenix Lords, but they're a special category, known as the Asurya, the original pupils of Asurmen. Technically, the Exarch in your single Dire Avengers squad could be claimed to be a Phoenix Lord, if his Shrine has been destroyed. The reason the Asurya are so special is that they invented their style from scratch. They know everything it's capable of, having sparred each other endlessly, developing their techniques further after each match.
Pretty much, a Phoenix Lord is an Exarch who has "risen from the ashes", so to speak. Their Shrine has been destroyed, often their Craftworld as well, and still they fight.

Magos Explorator
04-12-2008, 08:06
Hrm... It may be due to the way Warp Spiders weren't originally intended for battle; their main purpose, if memory serves, is to repair the webway. Their combat role is ancillary to their primary task, thus making them not a true combat aspect warrior, and less likely to have a "founding" as such.

I disagree. They are named for the 'warp spiders' which do go and repair the webway, but those are spiders, not Eldar. As the Warp Spiders are Aspect Warriors then that means they are on the Path of the Warrior, and are explicitly warriors foremost. The Warp Spiders must just represent some aspect of Khaine.

Radium
04-12-2008, 12:07
Warp spiders and shining spears don't have phoenix lords for gameplay purposes (come on, 10 unique characters? Only marines can have that many!).

I'd really like to see a spider phoenix lord, but it won't happen. And I wilfully choose to ignore CS Goto.

Simon Sez
04-12-2008, 12:11
Yeah, that would throw a minor wrench into the "progresses by suit of armor thing."

Although, getting to that...It would seem rather odd that over the millenia, not once has any Phoenix Lord been hit with a weapon that would disintegrate them. So, logically, it'd be nice to extend the same courtesy of not being wiped out and the armor always being preserved to the Warp Spiders as well.


"This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation... but is this not the nine-hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know. Pretty good. Will you tell me this is a fake too?"

At least, that's how I think it works.

Idaan
04-12-2008, 14:00
Although, getting to that...It would seem rather odd that over the millenia, not once has any Phoenix Lord been hit with a weapon that would disintegrate them. So, logically, it'd be nice to extend the same courtesy of not being wiped out and the armor always being preserved to the Warp Spiders as well.Well, if no Primarchs, made of flesh and bone were disintegrated during their time, it is just as reasonable that the Phoenix Lords, made of wraithbone armour with no mortal inside, powered by miniature Infinity Circuits, shielded psychically against most damage weren't destroyed that way too.