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Malorian
21-08-2008, 15:42
When a unit charges a hydra I understand that only models that aren't touching the hydra can attack the handlers.

What about knights in the back parts of a lance? Can they pick to attack handlers?

Ethos
21-08-2008, 15:49
My guess is no - they can only attack those that the front models can attack.

And since the front guys are touching the Hydra, I would assume that the same fate is given for the 'back guys' as well.

Chaos Undecided
21-08-2008, 15:52
I believe that as the knights in the side of the lance will still be able to attack the Hydra the rules force them to do so ignoring the handlers.

Lord Khabal
21-08-2008, 15:55
Yep, I think you need at least a 6 wide cavalry unit so that the knights in the extremities can attack the handlers...

theunwantedbeing
21-08-2008, 16:07
It's impossible for 25mm based units to be in base contact with only the handlers, unless the handlers are placed next to each other rather than 1 either side of the hydra.

25mm 25mm 25mm 25mm
20mm 50mm 20mm
You get 5mm each side of the edge of the handler base before you reach another knight.

With the lance, the knights charging can only attack models the front model would be able to attack, which is the hydra.

Malorian
21-08-2008, 16:15
Damn... ok, guess I'll just have to throw everything at the hydra then.

Thanks for the fast reply.

Ganymede
22-08-2008, 05:00
It's impossible for 25mm based units to be in base contact with only the handlers, unless the handlers are placed next to each other rather than 1 either side of the hydra.

25mm 25mm 25mm 25mm
20mm 50mm 20mm
You get 5mm each side of the edge of the handler base before you reach another knight.

With the lance, the knights charging can only attack models the front model would be able to attack, which is the hydra.


I don't quite understand the example you are citing, but it is very possible for a unit of five-wide 25mm based troops to charge a hydra and still have two models able to attack the handlers. If the 125mm frontage unit charges a hydra center-to-center, the two overhanging models will only be in base contact to the handlers. Likewise a unit containing only four models can get one model exclusively in contact with the handlers.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-08-2008, 06:33
Ganymede, consider the fact that the charging models have to charge against the hydra. The handlers are only lined up after the charge has been completed. This means that four 25mm models must be in contact with the hydra, one at each kitty-corner. That's how you end up with the situation theunwantedbeing describes.

T10
22-08-2008, 10:19
When a unit charges a hydra I understand that only models that aren't touching the hydra can attack the handlers.

What about knights in the back parts of a lance? Can they pick to attack handlers?

Those knights are restricted from picking out a specific target. Effectively their attacks are worked out against the common ran-and-file models. This, of course, becomes a problem when the unit contains a mix of rank-and-file such as is the case with the War Hydra and the Lizardman Salamanders.

-T10

EldarBishop
22-08-2008, 11:51
The knights on the sides of the lance must attack the rank-file models that are in contact with the "lead" model on that side of the lance. This should be the Hydra in most cases.

xragg
22-08-2008, 12:43
Ganymede, consider the fact that the charging models have to charge against the hydra. The handlers are only lined up after the charge has been completed. This means that four 25mm models must be in contact with the hydra, one at each kitty-corner. That's how you end up with the situation theunwantedbeing describes.

Dont add in a rule that doesnt exist. There is only a restriction on what a model can attack versus a hydra, nothing that restricts charging.

Also, you dont have to "line up" your models with your opponents models, you only have to maximize models in combat. So in the situation knights vs a hydra, the following if very legal, since every model is still in combat.

|.25.|.25.|.25.|.25.|.25.|
....|.20|....50....|.20|

Ethos
22-08-2008, 14:45
eh... If you're saying that there can be space between the Hydra and it's handlers, then that's pushing it. The handlers stand behind the Hydra and poke out to the enemy (I think) - not to mention that the front battle lines must be all together and neat (or if not must, then really really really encouraged).

Actually, page 67 of BRB (bottom left of page) says, "Skirmishers fight in a normal formation of ranks and files." Also, on the bottom right of the same page, Monsters and Handlers states, "Once the monster is in contact with the enemy, form the handlers up with the monster in the same way as you would for a unit of skirmishers."

So, it seems as though you'd almost have to keep the Hydra and handlers in base contact with each other when in combat.


...

oh. I just saw your diagram, and for some reason I was blind earlier. you're fine, xragg. my fault.

EvC
22-08-2008, 16:05
Indeed. Here's this diagram to illustrate how you should be lining up your Hydras when fighting 25mm enemies:
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6105/hydra2np6.jpg
Note there are other permutations (such as hydra-handler-handler) which may mean only one cavalryman can attack the Handlers, but this is the basic "one on either side" way of aligning the combatants.

Atrahasis
22-08-2008, 16:08
You use the word "should" there. Is there any rule that suggests that you "should" line up like this?

EvC
22-08-2008, 16:43
The rule about maximising models in combat, I'm sure you know of them. But it's only an example. As said, alternately you can place both Handlers on one side of the Hydra which changes how many can attack them.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-08-2008, 16:58
I suppose it depends at what point you consider the handlers to be no longer "completely ignored (as if they were not there)".

If you follow this all the way through charging, as the rules seem to suggest to me, then 4 25mm based models will contact the hydra and then the handlers are placed in the battle line per the skirmisher rules to bring the maximum number of models into the combat. This will probably entail placing both of them to one side of the hydra as placing them one on either side of the hydra will not increase the number of models in the combat.

X- enemy
S- space
H- hydra
h- handler

So if charging to the front first maximise against the hydra.

XXXXXX
SSHHSS


Then place the handlers

XXXXXX
SSHHhh

That allows one model to attack a handler whilst 4 must attack the hydra and one model may not attack.

EDIT: Obviously if the enemy charging the hydra were only 5 models wide then you would get 4 models attacking the hydra and 1 attacking the handlers.

As far as I read it this is what Nurgling Chieftain is also saying.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 17:10
Or one handler on either side if it leaves no enemy models being in contact with only a handler. Thus, making, all the enemy attack the Hydra.

So it's a decision per the Dark Elf player, I suppose...

Gazak Blacktoof
22-08-2008, 17:21
Nope, skirmishers have to maximise when charged and charging.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 17:31
Hm, perhaps my wording was a bit unclear. (haha... yeah, that happens alot).

Totally agree with you, Gazak. If either sceneario - both handlers to one side, or straddling the Hydra - keeps the most models in combat, then the Dark Elf player can choose which setup to have.

But, now that I'm thinking aboutit, perhaps it's not possible to have one or the other in any one given situation. Guess we'd have to see it played out.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-08-2008, 17:32
Dont add in a rule that doesnt exist. There is only a restriction on what a model can attack versus a hydra, nothing that restricts charging.Now you're claiming that the rule that you charge the hydra and ignore the handlers doesn't exist? You charge the hydra. You must maximize models in contact with the hydra.


Also, you dont have to "line up" your models with your opponents models, you only have to maximize models in combat.Right, you have to charge in such a way as to maximize models in combat, but you're charging the hydra (and ignoring the handlers in your charge move), so you have to maximize against it.


|.25.|.25.|.25.|.25.|.25.|
....|.20|....50....|.20| In this example you've charged in such a way as to have 3 models in contact with the model you're charging when you could have had 4 models in contact with it. Illegal.

xragg
22-08-2008, 17:34
So if charging to the front first maximise against the hydra.



Thats the rule I think people are adding in that doesnt exist in the rulebook. It simply states to maximise models able to fight.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-08-2008, 17:44
Thats the rule I think people are adding in that doesnt exist in the rulebook. It simply states to maximise models able to fight.Right, but that's done before the handlers are even placed into the combat, and while the "ignore the handlers" rule is in force. The rule is that you have to maximize models in combat, the effect is that you have to maximize models in combat with the hydra.

Now, when the handlers rank up, they have to maximize models in combat, too, which might force them to rank up both on one side...

EvC
22-08-2008, 17:56
You ignore the handlers whilst moving the chargers. However, once you've made contact, they are no longer ignored, and you must maximise. The rules for monsters and handlers explicitly refer you to the rules for lining up skirmishers, which explicitly say you have to maximise when aligning the combatants.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 18:09
just called GW.

You measure towards the Hydra for all charges - ignore the handlers.

On page 67 of BRB, it says, "Once the monster is in contact with the enemy, form the handlers up with the monster in the same way as you would for a unit of skirmishers." So I would assume that the Hydra stays put once the charge has happened, and the handlers form up to maximize the most number of models into combat. It's like the Hydra and handlers acts as a unit of 3 regular skirmishers - only that the one you charge is a monster and can bit your head off in one of 5 ways.

Also, it charges like a monster, and so does not have 360 degree LOS for charging.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-08-2008, 18:21
Right, but that's done before the handlers are even placed into the combat, and while the "ignore the handlers" rule is in force. The rule is that you have to maximize models in combat, the effect is that you have to maximize models in combat with the hydra.

Now, when the handlers rank up, they have to maximize models in combat, too, which might force them to rank up both on one side...

That is how I read it too.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-08-2008, 18:22
So, I think that leaves the correct charge frontage under discussion as follows (C=Charger, H=Hydra, h=handler, _=empty space):

CCCCC
_HHhh

Ethos
22-08-2008, 18:27
Ooh... so you almost have to have 1 handler suceptable to death!

I like it. I like it a-lot.

Hah... totally put a character on the more open side, forcing his handlers to be ranked up with your character. That'll be 2 combat resolution points in your favor for sure.

...hahahahaha. As long as I'm not wrong, then every person who plays with a Hydra is going to fear any cavalry majorly. The Dark elf player with need to kill at least 4 knights to win combat. The opposing player will have 2 kills (caused by their character), banner, and outnumber if the Hydra only killed 3 (leaving 2 more and the Character). Otherwise, if the Hydra only killed 3, then the opponent would win with the musician to break the tie.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-08-2008, 18:32
In my experience, the death of the handlers just gives the hydra an extra attack. :p

EvC
22-08-2008, 18:49
Ah, I think ye have solved it quite nicely there NC! Good one :)

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-08-2008, 19:41
My thought is that you interpret base contact according to the models in the front rank. So any models behind the front rank have same base contact condition.

Having said that, I think this question is just raises yet another example of why the Lance formation needs to go (in favor of some other advantage for Bretonnians, obviously)

Ethos
22-08-2008, 19:58
Grogsnot - you're right. For the Lance formation, all models in the unit are based off of the front rank.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-08-2008, 20:00
It's impossible for 25mm based units to be in base contact with only the handlers, unless the handlers are placed next to each other rather than 1 either side of the hydra.

25mm 25mm 25mm 25mm
20mm 50mm 20mm
You get 5mm each side of the edge of the handler base before you reach another knight.

With the lance, the knights charging can only attack models the front model would be able to attack, which is the hydra.

This is correct. A 3-wide Lance formation (is there any other kind??) will generally never be able to attack anything but the Hydra.