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TroyJPerez
21-08-2008, 18:24
Just had a question about ranged attacks and wound allocation on heros. I know the rulebook says that if there are more then 5 regular troops a hero cannot be hit, but what if you take like 10 wounds from ranged attacks? Do the extra wounds just go away and the hero is left standing with his dead group around him? Or do they randomize over to him as soon as you've killed the unit down to 4 regular troops and a hero? Just wondering how you would handle a situation like this. Thanks.

Loopstah
21-08-2008, 18:33
If you shoot a unit with 5 troops and a character and take 10 hits from shooting then all 10 hit the 5 troops.

You can not hit a character at all if he is in a unit with 5 or more troops.

TroyJPerez
21-08-2008, 18:47
ah cool thats what I thought. Does that same rule apply to unit champion as well?

Loopstah
21-08-2008, 18:49
No, because a Champion isn't a character.

theunwantedbeing
21-08-2008, 19:11
Page 74, rulebook.
Shooting at character's in units

Page 81
Unit champions

Answers everything.

Chicago Slim
21-08-2008, 22:11
Good citations. Loopstah, if you check page 81, in particular, you'll find that your answer isn't really solid... Champions aren't characters, but they do behave like characters in certain circumstances, and targetting is one of those.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-08-2008, 22:15
Yes, but if a unit has suffered enough wounds to erradicate all of the rank and file, then any remaining wounds are resolved against the champion.

Loopstah
22-08-2008, 11:25
Good citations. Loopstah, if you check page 81, in particular, you'll find that your answer isn't really solid... Champions aren't characters, but they do behave like characters in certain circumstances, and targetting is one of those.

Ah! Whoops, forgot about that.

So you really need 5 normal troops not counting the champion then, to avoid the characters getting hit.

A Lord, Champion and 4 normal troops would not provide protection.


Yes, but if a unit has suffered enough wounds to erradicate all of the rank and file, then any remaining wounds are resolved against the champion.

You can't allocate wounds to them if they were never hit in the first place.

xragg
22-08-2008, 13:02
Are you suggesting a unit champion will stick around even if the wiped-out unit took extra wounds from shooting? The champion is still killed if enough wounds are done to the unit, he is just the last to die from ranged attacks and doesnt have to take allocated hits if with 5 other rank n' file.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 14:30
yeah - it's character +5 (including the unit champion) to get the 'Look out, sir!' roll. A champion still counts as a normal 'rank and file' model for the purposes of 'Look out, sir!'.

And yes, if a unit of 7 guys (including a unit champion) and an additional character suffers 10 wounds, the character will be unskathed and the '7 guys' will take the wounds, with the champion suffering the last wound(s).

Gazak Blacktoof
22-08-2008, 14:45
And yes, if a unit of 7 guys (including a unit champion) and an additional character suffers 10 wounds, the character will be unskathed and the '7 guys' will take the wounds, with the champion suffering the last wound(s).

Exactly how it works ^. Its the same for any type of attack; shooting, close combat, etc.

Loopstah
22-08-2008, 17:53
Exactly how it works ^. Its the same for any type of attack; shooting, close combat, etc.

Not if it comes from shooting as the Champion "counts as" a character, and therefore it's the same as a unit with two characters in. Neither character can be shot at while there are more than 5 rank-and-file (obviously the champion does not count himself as one of the 5, but the character does).

So if the 5 rank-and-file died from the same volley, you would not allocate the left over wounds to the champion as that ignores the "treated as a character" rule.

Both would be eligible to be shot at by other units then.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-08-2008, 18:18
That's not what I'm reading. Yes they benefit from look out sir but, "If the unit suffers enough wounds to kill every model in it, the champion is removed together with his comrades, being after all a rank-and-file model."

Ethos
22-08-2008, 18:22
Ah... I love it when people are on the ball. Unlike myself, apparently.

BRB page 81, extreme bottom right:

"Champions are treated as characters when their unit is hit by ranged attacks (eg. they benefit from the "Look out, Sir!" rule, etc)."

You can't take down a character from ranged attacks, and therefore can't take down a unit champion. Except from wounds done in combat.

Thanks Loopstah.

Ethos
22-08-2008, 18:23
Gazak - what's the page number?

Gazak Blacktoof
22-08-2008, 20:36
Page 81, third para in the section concerning champions.

Braad
23-08-2008, 13:29
To make matters a bit worse... As how I read it here, the part that Gazak refers to, only talks about attacks from other models directed towards them, so CC, and not about shooting at all. Last paragraph on the bottom of that page however tells us to treat champions exactly as characters when hit by ranged attacks...

However, I don't really think this is the intention... It sounds a bit weird that, when all the boyz are dying, the champion just evades all arrows. He is still just a champion, and not an uber-boss.

xragg
24-08-2008, 00:41
How do you ignore, "If the unit suffers enough wounds to kill every model in it, the champion is removed together with his comrades, being after all the rnf model."? How are you restricting this blanket statement to only CC wounds?

*A champion benefits from look out sir.
*A champion doesnt have hits allocated to him if 5 rnf are with him.
*A champion can issue/accept challenges.

So basically, if a champ and 4 troopers are hit 10 times from an archer unit, 2 hits are allocated specifically to the champ. If he survives those 2 hits, but 5 of the 8 hits wound the troopers, the champion still dies (as the unit suffered enough wounds to kill every model in it).

Yes, the champion is treated as a character in respect to shooting attacks, but they still dont disregard any rules that apply to them normally.

Nedar
25-08-2008, 06:06
Champions are RnF, with a few special rules of characters. So, he counts as 1 of the 5 RnF troops, but also benefits from "Look out Sir!" rule (cannonballs and templates). But if you do enough wounds to wipe out the unit, you wipe out the unit. The champion is not immune to attacks that hurt RnF as he is still a member of the RnF.

CC is odd in that way too, you can't kill a champion unless you direct attacks at him, or he is the last model in the unit from a batch of wounds.

Page 81, Champions, Third Paragraph, last sentence. Proves all this.

As it follows though under the Standards section on Page 80, the champion is the second to last model to be removed. The last model to ever die in a unit with a standard is the standard bearer, as another RnF model (champions are RnF) take up the standard if the SB dies.

Another thing I keep forgetting to do in my games is actually capturing standards correctly, oh well.