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kilokalex
21-08-2008, 20:03
Which codex yet to come do yall want to see most? For me its guard.

Drogmir
21-08-2008, 20:10
Guard for sure.

Then DE cause they just deserve it from waiting so long.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-08-2008, 20:17
chaos - i'm greedy :>

but seriously it would be dark eldars and guard

Dooks Dizzo
21-08-2008, 20:24
Dark Eldar all day.

Really though everyone needs one except Marines (bacause they're getting one) and Orks, because they're actually up to date.

Bregalad
21-08-2008, 20:27
Dark Eldar and Necrons. Both have lots of potential waiting to be developed. Perhaps opening options for Forge World models as well. All other Codices are just little updates without any surprises.

Lion El Jason
21-08-2008, 20:46
Dark Angels are most in need of it, a less than competitive list combined with everything being out of date due to the new vanilla codex. Even Necrons and DE have better lists.

Still I'd rather see a Dark Eldar codex with some background... any background since the current codex is basically devoid of it. Also even though they have a good competitive list, their mini range sucks and they could do with like twice as many types of units.
Also Necrons, again a competitive list but theres not much scope for variation, tweaks and hopefully more units would mean there could be more than 2-3 good lists. Also more narrative again and (We can hope) C'tan being removed from the book (They are much more suited to the background than they are to the game).

Guard are pretty much confirmed as a nearby release, theres even a leaked list around. They don't really need a new book but GW is mad-keen to get rid of the doctrines.

Ubermensch Commander
21-08-2008, 20:53
I would enjoy an update Dark Eldar codex with an update line of models. Beyond that? An Ordo Xenos book....or Ordo Xenos represented in a combined Inquisition codex. Just so long as they showed up.
then
-Space Wolves
-Necrons(although i LOATHE them, if their story was updated with some better rules, better FLUFF!, and less mary sue dom of C'tan and more empahsis on the NECRONS that would be grand. Oha nd for ****s sake can we change the points cost or abilities of a Monolith? seriously?)
-Adetus Mechanicus
-Imp guard

Firaxin
22-08-2008, 03:30
Ordo Xenos, Admech, and IG.

Nids after that.

Necrons.

And, saved for last of course, Dark Eldar.

Ambu
22-08-2008, 03:35
DE cause I wanna play them but ot w/ the crap codex they got now. Then IG, then 'nids...

sydbridges
22-08-2008, 03:47
I'd like to see new codices for DE, Necrons, and Tyranids.

Chem-Dog
22-08-2008, 04:01
On a personal note, I'd like IG as I'm an IG player (and I can't wait to see the IG's answer to 6 point Orks).

For the "MetaGame", it's got to be Dark Eldar, I don't think there is a single serious 40K player who doesn't want the Deldar back in the game properly.

Vaz84
22-08-2008, 04:26
I'd like every army to have free download rules, updated every 3months or as needed for FAQ'd Items (hello the power of the internet GW?). In terms of models and Art+Fluff books..

Dark Eldar
Chaos Legions (All 9 Traitor legions, 140 page book)
Imperial Guard
Chapters of Renown (Almost all 9 Loyalist Legions, except UM really)
Necrons
Tyranids
Eldar
6th Edition
Repeat the Above, add Orks
7th Edition
Repeat the Above, add Inquisition (maybe?)

:D

Kettu
22-08-2008, 04:39
@Vaz84 Why Inquisitor right at the bottom? They need new dexes as mush as Imp. It's all 3rd ed dexs.

Me personally (in this order);

Dark Eldar
Necrons
Sisters of Battle

davethebear
22-08-2008, 04:53
space wolves for me and necrons.

Vaz84
22-08-2008, 05:42
Its dirt in the eyes to the poor inquisitor players =/

But realistically, I stand by my rules in PDF format, all done soon and kept up to date with a move to fluff+art books for each army containing a army list "at this time".

I see no reason for continuing this sad state of slow codex creep with how useful the internet can be in terms of getting new content out there. Plus the art books will really appeal to the gamers who are passionate about it. Frankly what we pay now for rules is overpriced, no matter how you slice it. I love my codex collection, but I don't have the esteem for them like I do the hardcover novels I own.

The Old Scholar
22-08-2008, 05:50
I would like to see the Dark Eldar...
A ton of potential there, yeah?

MADJAP77
22-08-2008, 05:52
1.Space Puppies
2.DE
3a.Necrons
3b.Guard
4.Squats
5.Blood Angles

Grimbad
22-08-2008, 06:01
1. Lost and the Damned.
2. Inquisition
3. Guard

Vostroyan
22-08-2008, 06:07
Tau or Space marines becuase they are better then every other race and becuase they my favorite but seriously guard or necrons.
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Luckywallace
22-08-2008, 06:19
High priority:
- Imperial Guard
- Dark Eldar
- Necrons
- Inquisition (but unlikely to be updated anytime soon).

Mid priority:
- Tyranids
- Tau Empire
- Space Puppies
- Black Templars

Low Priority:
- Eldar
- Chaos Space Marines
- Orks
- Chaos Daemons
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels

***And of course, 'normal' Marines are about to be updated.***

Of all of these I think Necrons or Guard are likely to be next after Marines, since Dark Eldar will probably need to be a big project that will take some time.

Hulkster
22-08-2008, 06:28
Its dirt in the eyes to the poor inquisitor players =/

But realistically, I stand by my rules in PDF format, all done soon and kept up to date with a move to fluff+art books for each army containing a army list "at this time".

I see no reason for continuing this sad state of slow codex creep with how useful the internet can be in terms of getting new content out there. Plus the art books will really appeal to the gamers who are passionate about it. Frankly what we pay now for rules is overpriced, no matter how you slice it. I love my codex collection, but I don't have the esteem for them like I do the hardcover novels I own.

The reason for the actual book release is 3 fold.

1. They make more money this way.
2. Not everyone has the internet to a book version would have to be released at the same time anyway
3. I prefer to have books over pdf printouts any day.

Ok the last reason was my on preference but you get the idea.

Now I believe th actual order of release after SM is Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Dark Elder.

Personally Dark Elder should be next, and I think GW want them to be next, they are just replacing all the models because 96% of them are horrible.

Radium
22-08-2008, 06:29
Crons. They're boring as is and are in real need of some varied viable army lists.
DE need an update as well, but can go a little while longer (after all, what's another year when you've waited for a decade already?).

Nero
22-08-2008, 08:03
Chaos Space Marines. Having an old codex is better than having a bad codex. And CSM have the worse codex I have ever read. I wub my chaos Inquisition and traitor guard, if their new codexs are keeping inline with GWs new philosophy (everything should be stupid. Sorry, I mean streamlined) I'd rather keep the current codexs forever.

Oh, and Dark Eldar don't deserve a new codex now or ever. The entire concept and model range for the army is terrible - all they have going for them are the current rules. It's rumored they're getting their background and model range almost entirely revamped, but if they're getting a new background, model range AND rules, all they'll share with the current DE is name only. That's the same a releasing a new army - and why release a new army when current armies have old/bad codexs?

Ddraiglais
22-08-2008, 08:32
Well, since GW seems to be getting away from their simplifying all the codices phase (see the SM dex rumors), I'd love to see the Legions dex soon.

shin'keiro
22-08-2008, 08:45
Dark Eldar all day.

Really though everyone needs one except Marines (bacause they're getting one) and Orks, because they're actually up to date.


DA and BA are 5th
So are Eldar, Chaos, Daemons and Orks

I'd like to see Dark Eldar the most... but will have to wait 'til after Marines, Guard, SW and probably Necrons...

Dragonlv8
22-08-2008, 09:02
I would like Guard the most.
Yea.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
22-08-2008, 09:12
DA and BA are 5th
So are Eldar, Chaos, Daemons and Orks


did you played 4.0 chaos ? if not, please, do not make such claims.


High Priority
-Imperial Guard
-Dark Eldar
-Chaos Space Marines

Medium Priority
-Forces of the Imperium
-Necrons
-Space wolves

Low Priority
-Tau
-Eldar

Codices that are fine
-Orks
-Space Marines [new one]

Codecies that should never be supported
-Dark Angels
-Blood Angels
-Black Templars

I really feel they need to be in Codex:Space Marines. Just add a odd character or two.

Badger[Fr]
22-08-2008, 11:57
did you played 4.0 chaos ? if not, please, do not make such claims.

The latest CSM Codex, with its emphasis on Troops, was obviously designed with 5th Edition in mind. So were Eldars and Orks (BS 7 Phoenix Lords, antitank weapons that negate cover, Holofields, and Deffrollas made no sense under the 4th Edition ruleset). Chaos Space Marines do not deserve a new Codex right now: the current one is bland and dull, but at least it's still competitive.

As far as I am concerned, I'd like IG and DE.

x-esiv-4c
22-08-2008, 12:04
I would like to see a new CSM codex.

Charax
22-08-2008, 12:08
Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Necrons
CSM/Legions (to bring them in line with the new Marines
Tyranids

Commissar Holt
22-08-2008, 12:15
I would most certainly say that the most deserving by FAR would be the Dark Eldar. Dear Lord, they need it and they truely deserve it and also, I want to know a bit more about them.

But the one I would love to see would be a codex of the lesser races in 40K, such as the Demiurg and so forth. Would be rather cool. I know its a fantasy, but it would be cool still :-)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
22-08-2008, 12:16
;2886479']The latest CSM Codex, with its emphasis on Troops, was obviously designed with 5th Edition in mind. So were Eldars and Orks (BS 7 Phoenix Lords, antitank weapons that negate cover, Holofields, and Deffrollas made no sense under the 4th Edition ruleset). Chaos Space Marines do not deserve a new Codex right now: the current one is bland and dull, but at least it's still competitive.

As far as I am concerned, I'd like IG and DE.

codex is meant to allow various playstyles and broad unit selection.

chaos codex failed to do so.

it is very competetive, but i'd gladly get rid of lash, raise the price of daemon prince upgrades and give him S5 I4, get rid of plasma cannon on oblits, combi-plasmas on termis [even if i like those very much] and nerf zerkers/plague marines. i'll give up all those for new codex that actually have internal balance.

heck i'd even move TS/PM/KB/NM to elites HQ have mark of said god!

Foolish Mortal
22-08-2008, 12:18
Imperial guard

Dark eldar - (don't like them myself, but they REALLY need redoing)




Oh, and of course codex fishmen!!!

Long_Fang
22-08-2008, 13:15
Space Wolves people. I see a lot of posts with them not mentioned at all.

Yeah they are Space Marines and yeah space marines are over supported already, but no codex in 10 years? Missing an entire edition. I wouldn't care if you stuck them inside the normal space marines codex, along with the other chapters.

Badger[Fr]
22-08-2008, 13:23
it is very competetive, but i'd gladly get rid of lash, raise the price of daemon prince upgrades and give him S5 I4, get rid of plasma cannon on oblits, combi-plasmas on termis [even if i like those very much] and nerf zerkers/plague marines. i'll give up all those for new codex that actually have internal balance.
I do agree with you, but other armies, such as Necrons, Dark Eldars, or Imperial Guards, have been facing the same issue for at least four years (not to mention Orks, who eventually got all the love they needed), and therefore deserve to be redone first.

Slaaaaaanesh
22-08-2008, 13:44
I agree that overall Dark Eldar should be the highest on the priority list for and update, and models.

Wasn't there something about GW (I think it was in a standard bearer in WD a couple of months back) eventually releasing a Chaos legions codex containing the lists for (Iron warriors, emporers children, etc) Which will be separate different to the Chaos Space marine codex that is out now as they are focussed on the rag tag war bands.

:edit: sorry I didn't see post 24# before writing my post.

Chem-Dog
22-08-2008, 14:06
hello the power of the internet GW?

Nah, they were kinda doing this before, regular FAQ's for armies as and when a big enough body of significant rules anomalies popped up BUT it quickly became a brawl over who had the latest updates, whole tournaments were sucked into the warp because a Guard player didn't know his Enginseer counted his servitors as Wargear!
Not everybody's got regular access to the web, so it cant be relied upon as a means of rule dissemination.


Also a lot of the FAQ's were nonsense of the highest order, I mean, DS'ing Landspeeders can't shoot WTF?! Not to mention the Whole Synapse debacle.

Keichi246
22-08-2008, 14:07
What codex do I want to see *most*?

Updated 5th Edition Codex for Tau - because Tau are my favorite army.

BUT, I freely admit that many other codices should really come first.
It's the semantic difference between what I *want* and what I think *should* happen.

The Tau are fine - and really don't need a codex update. Doesn't stop me from wanting one though... :D

My view of what *should* happen:

Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Tyranids
Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Space Wolves and other "Chapters of Renown" all rolled into one uber codex (never gonna happen - butI think it should happen)
Tau
Chaos Legions (Legion rules seem borderline unnecessary to me - but since they have fans - I'll throw them a bone)
Unified Inquisition Codex

One year moratorium on new codexes before 6th edition - while they tweak rules and determine EXACTLY how each existing codex will be affected.

6th Ed and and some truly Awesome FAQS. And/or converting to digital "living" Codices...

Isoroku
22-08-2008, 14:12
The Order of departure should be a codex xeno and imperial but what GW pulled themselves as they see fit

I seem to be

Necrons
Space Puppies
Tau
I Guard
Dark Eldar
Mecanicus

Hulkster
22-08-2008, 14:38
DA, Eldar, BA, CSM and maybe Orks are all V4.5 books. They were built with 5th in mind, but before 5th was finished. They will all be redone (except maybe orks) AFTER all the other books are done, (Except maybe Inquisition because GW don't know what to do with it yet).

Also the CSM book is not bad at all. I just doesn't give you the cheese lists you had before. Besides if Rumours are true there will be releasing Chaos Legion books as well later.

Bloodknight
22-08-2008, 14:53
I just doesn't give you the cheese lists you had before.

No, it gives even worse cheese lists..or let me correct that: one cheese list. If you don't happen to like Slaanesh, you're screwed ;)

laudarkul
22-08-2008, 15:59
1.Guard -it is my /fav and perhaps some fluff/models for new regiments:p like those athonian(2008)
2.DE-everybody wants new fluff/models (2009)
3.Adeptus Mechanicum - IT IS A MUST;perhaps models:chrome: (2009)
4.SM/CSM codex/codexes-only for the original legions(including fluff ) (2009)
5.Necrons
6.WH,DH

3.5 :P Squats or Barghesi or Loxatl

Thanex
22-08-2008, 18:09
Hmmmmm...
New Codecies?
1. IG - defiantly cos the squad base system is frankly ****.
2. Dark Eldar - they really need a major facelift
3. tyranids - not as scary as they used to be
4. necrons - the most boringingst list out there
5. Blood Angles with SW - hate the WD list thats it really then just bring on new edition

tupton79
22-08-2008, 18:31
1. Dark Eldar
2. Lost and the Damned
3. CSM Legions

Wraithbored
22-08-2008, 18:39
Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Everything else is fine and only maybe needs a tweak here and there.

Templar Ben
22-08-2008, 19:01
Imperial Guard and Necrons.

I would rather Dark Eldar go away. If they have to keep them then perhaps Codex: Pirates where they are included and you can have rogue elements from other empires as well.

Vaz84
22-08-2008, 19:31
I think Living/Digital codex's is a good idea as a poster said and I said in my posts on page 1. Just about everyone has the internet these days, local GW's can also sell print outs for 1$ or something. In an age where we have so much technology and ability to edit+revamp things, there is less and less justification for codex creep // only 4 armies a year.

Waiting a year.. two years.. heck 10 years for some armies, is just retarded. No matter how GW tries to justify it with various excuses (release schedule, play testing, etc.).

GW's concept of releasing army books is dated and ancient. Maybe they should hire a CEO who can see this problem :P.

I still don't believe Space Wolves will get a winter release this year, especially with how big the marine book, its marine xenos marine, not marine marine xenos xenos =P

Ahh Nerd Rage!!!

Angelus Mortis
22-08-2008, 19:43
Daemonhunters and IG.

Charax
22-08-2008, 19:51
I think Living/Digital codex's is a good idea as a poster said and I said in my posts on page 1.
Gav addressed the Digital codex issue a while back (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2715863#post2715863)


Just about everyone has the internet these days, local GW's can also sell print outs for 1$ or something.
Do you want to foot the bill for:
a) no more revenue from selling Codices
b) connecting EVERY SINGLE GW to the internet?
c) Printers/paper/ink for every GW store?

If people think GW models are expensive now, prices would go through the roof if they had to make up the cost of setting up and maintaining that sort of infrastructure.

the1stpip
22-08-2008, 20:04
Dark Eldar and Inquisition.

Cos I have done DE for a lo9ng time, and I have just started a sisters army.

Both are in need of attention.

Tzar Boris
23-08-2008, 02:21
Unabashed wanton lust for something actually new :

New races/armies - at least two (I may suggest Demiurg and Hrud)
Inquisition
Chaos Guard
Dark Eldar (not my own desire, but I can't stand them just sitting there, just waiting to suck)
Some form of cool alternative Codex, with scenarios that demand production of Ancillary models - like citizens that aren't Empire Militia on round bases, Earth caste Tau, Mercenaries, Alien buildings and stuff.
VDR rules
Imperial Guard

And, why not a two-tier Codex system - the new UltraMarines one is weird, especially for an army that is aimed at newbies - so, I would propose a single codex detailing the basic troop types of each army, how they work etc, whilst missing the special characters, the more complex units and options and make it more like a fully formed army list that just needs totalled up, and then a dedicated more in-depth fluff wise race-specific codex with reams of options burning out the pages - a Space Marines Codex that lets you tweak beyond the realms of mere doctrines. But all as reasonably balanced and interplayable as you like.

Not the place for ideas like that, but just a thought.

Eldoriath
23-08-2008, 12:43
Dark eldar, not because they'r current list is totally lame-ass, but because they deserve it and kind of need it.

Guard, 5th ed rules and the guard doctrines... The doctrines will go, therefore i avoid making any guardlists with special equipment of any sort. 5th ed rules just seem to kill guard, especially kill points. Objective holding is also kind of weak for them, but the can manage.

Lost and the Damned. They deserved to get a codex, not those pesky chaos daemons. I will probably make them using the ork list as a count-as army in the looong and perhaps never ending waiting for their own codex.

Necrons, they have potential to be more than warriors, destroyers and monoliths.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 12:50
If anyone deserves a new Codex its Space Wolves.

And DE can go screw themselves at least they had a minor update in 3rd ed :(

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 13:59
11 years, 11 blood and sweat filled years. Countries have come and gone in that time.

However SW need it most because their codex currently references a codex that doesn't exist (3rd ed SM) and soon will ahve to refer to a codex that will change things even further (5th ed SM).

Anyone who says a non 3rd ed codex needs a new codex first is delusional.

stonehorse
23-08-2008, 14:15
The Dark Eldar codex can still build a very competative list. The big things that Dark Eldar need are model and background reboot.

The Codex offers a lot of nasty tricks that I feel will be lost when the 5th edition codex comes out.

The codexi that are in need are those that didn't get one for 4th edition, it is already a slap in the face that the Marines are getting a 5th edition codex while around half of the races are still having to do with their old 3rd edition Codex.

Battle-Brother Wags
23-08-2008, 14:42
I agree that SWs are the most in need. As was mentioned before, their rules are relying on a document that will have majorly changed twice within the next few months, the point costs also established in the realm of yesteryear (Try Logan Grimnar vs. Abaddon and lets see if the points are fair). They also have entire army-affecting rules that are null-and-void due to 5th that they are nevertheless paying points for. Now I realize other armies have this issue as well, but SWs are the only ones that come to mind that have basic list traits that are stripped of them. And they don't even have a full codex. Even Dark Eldar have a full codex of there own. Sure, its missing alot of fluff, but at least all the rules are in one book unlike the SWs.

Some people say certain lists are broken because they are either uber or absolutely pathetic. I say SWs need to be fixed because they're broken in that they are incomplete and no longer coherent with the rest of the 40k world.

the1stpip
23-08-2008, 14:49
I had forgotten about LatD. I would blow large amounts of money tomorrow if they were released.

Not wanting to stir up a nest, but Dark Eldar deserve it more than Space Puppies. What was that about useless rules. We still pay for turbo boosting, while everyone else gets it free. Our Mandrakes are the be4st infiltrators in the fluff, yet they are useless.

And minor updates don't count. The Dark Eldar are still the oldest codex out there. When GW release the new book, it seems that nearly every man and his dog will want a Dark Eldar army.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 15:02
I had forgotten about LatD. I would blow large amounts of money tomorrow if they were released.

Not wanting to stir up a nest, but Dark Eldar deserve it more than Space Puppies. What was that about useless rules. We still pay for turbo boosting, while everyone else gets it free. Our Mandrakes are the be4st infiltrators in the fluff, yet they are useless.

And minor updates don't count. The Dark Eldar are still the oldest codex out there. When GW release the new book, it seems that nearly every man and his dog will want a Dark Eldar army.

Sorry, but Space Puppies are damn near unuseable. At least DE have a chance of winning games. :)

Im not syaing they dont need an update, they do. In fact, DE were almost my first Army, and this lack of Updates is whats stopping me start up an auxillary army :(

*Cuddles his Puppies*

Who thinks GW should pay fanbois in minis to write the codexs?? ;p

Battle-Brother Wags
23-08-2008, 15:13
Its kinda useless to talk about "deserving" this or that. Various races don't go around doing good deeds and then saying, "Ok, I deserve an update because I've been a good boy!"

It is useFUL to talk about necessity. Does DE have a sucky line of models? Absolutely. So in a subjective way, you could say they NEED a new model line. But that is regardless of rules. I think you'd have alot more DE players NOW if you were to update the model line even without touching the rules. Space Wolves, however, NEED an updated rules set. It is undeniable. I don't know all the dates, but I believe the Space Wolves are one of the three oldest codexes currently in use and they don't even have a complete ruleset all their own, they are piggybacking off a C:SM book that doesn't exist anymore. When it comes down to necessity, I think the list(s) that don't even have a coherent set of rules needs and update more so than any list, whether you like the rules or not, who do have a complete set of rules.

swordbob
23-08-2008, 15:21
Good (err nuetral) Guard then evil Guard (IG then LatD).

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 15:23
Good (err nuetral) Guard then evil Guard (IG then LatD).

um wut?

This isnt DnD mate...

And tbh both loyal Guard and Renegade Guard can be easily done with the Current IG codex. Only thing You cant do is funky Warp/Chaos Stuff

LokkoRex
23-08-2008, 15:30
high priority:
dark eldar

lost and the damned

space wolves

inquisition

blood angels

medium priority:
necrons

chaos marines(one for legions, one for renegade chapters)

tyranids

imperial guard

black templars

minor priority:
dark angels

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 15:41
um wut?

This isnt DnD mate...

And tbh both loyal Guard and Renegade Guard can be easily done with the Current IG codex. Only thing You cant do is funky Warp/Chaos Stuff

yeah, EVERY army can be easly done under current rules ... why would anyone want new codex ?:wtf: [/sarcasm]

model lines which need update:
-Dark Eldar [obvious]
-Inquisition [should i call them Forces of the Imperium or sth like that? 5ed rulebook say so][all metal]
-Daemons [Tzeentch and Nurgle need a hug]
-Chaos Space Marines [Daemon Prince/Raptors/Dreads/Cult Troops/Sorcerers/Bikers]
-Necrons [obvious]

rules which need update:
-Dark Eldar
-Inquisition[Forces of the Imperium?]
-Tyranids
-Chaos [boring]
-Necron [even more boring]
-Imprerial Guard

so if we only count armies who are listed in both camps, we have:
-Dark Eldar
-Inquisition[Forces of the Imperium?]
-Chaos
-Necrons

armies that DO NOT need update:
-Eldar
-Tau
-Orks
-Space Marines
-Chaos Daemons [despite lack of DP/Tzeentch/Nurgle stuff]

the_reaper
23-08-2008, 17:01
Inquisition, Guard then Space Wolves.

-reaper

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 17:29
Why should =][= and Guard get rules first when they have 4th ed codex's and wolves STILL have a 3rd ed one?

DE and Wolves need to be Priority 1 updated

joeh
23-08-2008, 17:31
personaly being a space wolves player i'd like to see the new space wolves codex as its way out of date and unbalenced

Vaktathi
23-08-2008, 17:33
I would like to see a new Imperial Guard codex the most, hands down.

After that, it would be nice to see INQ and DE armies get a new book, then Necrons.

After that I'd like to see a CSM Legions book.

Bloodknight
23-08-2008, 17:51
and Guard get rules first when they have 4th ed codex's

Actually the Guard codex is from 3rd edition, too ;)

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 17:59
Actually the Guard codex is from 3rd edition, too ;)

and thats why I dont play guard!

But I dont care SW have an older codex so there :p

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 18:03
Why should =][= and Guard get rules first when they have 4th ed codex's and wolves STILL have a 3rd ed one?

DE and Wolves need to be Priority 1 updated

reason: SW are SM sub-race. other races need codex first.

beside, SM need to be shifted to one book again.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 18:07
Fine only if the Eldar and DE are put into one book, and the Imperial Guard are Merged with the =][= codex, and hell why not lets put the Orks and Nids together in one book

<MASSIVE SARCASM>

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 18:08
rules which need update:
-Dark Eldar
-Inquisition[Forces of the Imperium?]
-Tyranids
-Necron [even more boring]
-Imprerial Guard



armies that DO NOT need update:
-Eldar
-Tau
-Orks
-Space Marines
-Chaos
-Chaos Daemons [despite lack of DP/Tzeentch/Nurgle stuff]

Fixed that for you.

As it stands, SW need it more than anyone else, after that DE and IG both have equal claim for attention.

That said, IG have had 2 codices to DE's 1.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 18:16
Fine only if the Eldar and DE are put into one book, and the Imperial Guard are Merged with the =][= codex, and hell why not lets put the Orks and Nids together in one book

<MASSIVE SARCASM>

what weapons and armour and equipment and vehicles use SM vs SW. Do you know the answer ?

-They use SAME things. yeah, bolter/chainsword/power armour/rhino chassis/land raider chassis etc.

Beside, Space Wolves ARE Space Marines.

what weapons and armour and equipment and vehicles use SM vs SW. Do you know the answer ?

- They use DIFFERENT weapon based upon DIFFERENT technology

Yeah, they both are eldar and share ... Harlequins?

Your claim that orks and nids need to be in one codex i find insulting.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 18:19
Fixed that for you.

As it stands, SW need it more than anyone else, after that DE and IG both have equal claim for attention.

That said, IG have had 2 codices to DE's 1.

Chaos Need update. Not as fast as Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard, but fast anyway.

Current codex is abomination that should be fixed. Boring and one-dimensional abomination.

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 18:26
Chaos Need update. Not as fast as Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard, but fast anyway.

Current codex is abomination that should be fixed. Boring and one-dimensional abomination.

No, they don't.

The list works and isn't crippled or massively overpowered (its actually pretty balanced).

The only people who think chaos needs an update are those that lost the ability to infiltrate tank hunting autocannon havocs or first turn charges with infiltrating speed lords or *insert one of the other horrendously broken things from the last codex here*.

The only issue the chaos codex has (and I use the term issue very loosely) is the perceived lack of fluff and no freebies for silver CSM over black CSM.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 18:30
Your claim that orks and nids need to be in one codex i find insulting.

Boo hoo call the internet Police

Im saying that Space Wolves need a separate codex as they use unique wargear and have a totally different structure to other Chapters. Space Wolves don't use "Tactical Marines", nor do they use the Codex at all actually.

Waywatcher-
23-08-2008, 18:34
Its Dark eldar in about sept 09.

And Chaos marines have just had a new codex.

Waywatcher

Nero
23-08-2008, 18:38
rules which need update:
-Inquisition[Forces of the Imperium?]
-Chaos Space Marines
-Necron [even more boring]
-Imprerial Guard

armies that DO NOT need update:
-Eldar
-Tau
-Orks
-Space Marines
-Tyranid
-Chaos Daemons [despite lack of DP/Tzeentch/Nurgle stuff]

armies that DO NOT need update, EVER:
-Dark Eldar

Fixed that for you.

As it stands, SW need it more than anyone else, after that DE and IG both have equal claim for attention.

That said, IG have had 2 codices to DE's 1.

Fixed that for you.

Also, with the new SM codex there shouldn't be SM variant chapter codexs anymore (SW included) IMO. There isn't an excuse - you can play SM chapters using the special characters from the new codex. The difference between variants has always been small to negligible anyway. Dark Angels get Terminator troops, Black Templars get lots of scouts, etc. Yawn.

Ironically, the only reason chapters like SW play any different than current SM armies is because their list is so old.

EDIT -


Boo hoo call the internet Police

Im saying that Space Wolves need a separate codex as they use unique wargear and have a totally different structure to other Chapters. Space Wolves don't use "Tactical Marines", nor do they use the Codex at all actually.

Since when did fluff make a difference how a codex plays to GW? Chaos Space Marines are radically different than regular Space Marines too, but in their new codex they're just generic Space Marines with spikes. Same thing will happen with SW if they get a new codex - they'll get tactical squads and bloodclaw squads (tac squad +1WS and 1A), and they'll call it the 'new' SW fluff if you complain.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 18:40
No, they don't.

The list works and isn't crippled or massively overpowered (its actually pretty balanced).

The only people who think chaos needs an update are those that lost the ability to infiltrate tank hunting autocannon havocs or first turn charges with infiltrating speed lords or *insert one of the other horrendously broken things from the last codex here*.

The only issue the chaos codex has (and I use the term issue very loosely) is the perceived lack of fluff and no freebies for silver CSM over black CSM.

do you know that you insulted ME directly by this statement ?

i played neither.

so your statement is not only insulting, but outright lie!

just like should be in Blue SM over Grey SM [space wolves] case. no feebie is needed for neither black CSM nor silver CSM. [cheers Leman Russ, do you felt backstabbed?]

CSM codex have serious internal balance problem that should lead to its change. it is main reason. blandness and lack or options are only secondary reasons.

@Nero: Dark Eldars need only a few changes and unit rebalnace to allow players use mandrakes/helions/grotesque. but is nice overall, also some stuff is not usable anymore. i hope they change only minor things in the codex.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 18:44
You say that Ultramarines and Space Wolves are they same, but they are not. The Only thing they have in common are a grouding in Wargear and Equipment.

Their Fluff, Structure, tactics, ranks (and therefore Rules) are like chalk and cheese.

Space Wolves need their own codex, and they need it quick as they have the oldest codex out atm (DE got a minor update, I dont care what you say a minor update is an update)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 18:47
You say that Ultramarines and Space Wolves are they same, but they are not. The Only thing they have in common are a grouding in Wargear and Equipment.

Their Fluff, Structure, tactics, ranks (and therefore Rules) are like chalk and cheese.

Space Wolves need their own codex, and they need it quick as they have the oldest codex out atm (DE got a minor update, I dont care what you say a minor update is an update)

do you try to say that UM and SM have less in common that Emperors Children and say Alpha Legion ????? heck, they even have different equipment among other things you said!!!

interesting, they share the same codex ... and are also space marines.

do not insult people intelligence, please.

Vaktathi
23-08-2008, 18:48
No, they don't.

The list works and isn't crippled or massively overpowered (its actually pretty balanced).

The only people who think chaos needs an update are those that lost the ability to infiltrate tank hunting autocannon havocs or first turn charges with infiltrating speed lords or *insert one of the other horrendously broken things from the last codex here*.

The only issue the chaos codex has (and I use the term issue very loosely) is the perceived lack of fluff and no freebies for silver CSM over black CSM.

you are mistaking those that simply want overpowered crap for those that would like differentiation. The myriad of options in the last codex provided for differentiation. Granted they could and were abused, but it provided a means for saying "this army functions vastly differently than the next one, even if from similar beginnings".

I would love to see an IW list with an engineer unit that can perform a role similar to the upcoming Techmarine, but maybe a bit more indepth and an 8-10man unit, say fortifying terrain, laying minefields, tossing demo charges, reducing enemy fortifications and defenses, placing Teleport homers, etc. An option for Bunkers and Trenches instead of rhino's, Terminators with a heavy shooting aspect and greater access to Reaper Autocannons at the expense of not loading up on heavy CC weapons and restricting Icon access, maybe something equivalent to a Thudd Gun battery (not quite a Thunderfire battery, but something similar) manned by an IW equivalent Techpriest, etc.

Cut out the Cult units and most Icons, re-emphasize a very static but very shooty list at the cost of CC options and maneuverability, and I think it would be very cool.

Fars
23-08-2008, 18:59
Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard and Necrons is what I feel is most in need and most deserving of some love and attention.

Space Wolves are horribly out of date also but I find myself lacking sympathy due to how much attention us Marine players tend to get, and while I hear there is a new SW codex essentially finished and waiting to go to print, I wouldn't have minded if they did the same deal of a WD/Website PDF release the same as the Blood Angels. Any dedicated SW player will absolutely hate that opinion however, sorry gents.
Lastly, Inquisition is what I personally long for.

I play none of the above, likely I never will, but I'd love to play against more of these lists.

So I really hope the new releases bring rock solid new rules and models to encourage more people to play them. If the last several Codex updates are anything to go by I think we're in for a good time.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 19:07
do you try to say that UM and SM have less in common that Emperors Children and say Alpha Legion ?????.

no, Ultramarines and Space Marines have a lot in common.... I dont get what you are trying to say here?


And also, TBH I don't mind how the rules come out, as long as we get a full self contained ruleset, none of this referring to SM codex, and they are in keeping with the fluff (that Space Wolves use a pack organisation rather than a Company/Codex system)

Badger[Fr]
23-08-2008, 19:20
CSM codex have serious internal balance problem that should lead to its change. it is main reason. blandness and lack or options are only secondary reasons.
I don't agree. Sure, as usual, there are a few overpowered units here and there (DP, PM, Terminators), and some others that are utterly useless (Chaos Spawn, Possessed SM), but it's much more balanced than the previous one.

Nero
23-08-2008, 19:23
no, Ultramarines and Space Marines have a lot in common.... I dont get what you are trying to say here?

I think he meant Ultramarines and Space Wolves, not Ultramarines and Space Marines.


And also, TBH I don't mind how the rules come out, as long as we get a full self contained ruleset, none of this referring to SM codex, and they are in keeping with the fluff (that Space Wolves use a pack organisation rather than a Company/Codex system)

You won't. The new Space Wolves will be Space Marines with Bloodclaws.

CSM use a Company organisation rather than a Pack/Codex system. The difference between CSM and SM is much larger than the difference between SW and SM. Yet CSM still ended up as SM with spikes.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 19:37
I think he meant Ultramarines and Space Wolves, not Ultramarines and Space Marines.



You won't. The new Space Wolves will be Space Marines with Bloodclaws.

CSM use a Company organisation rather than a Pack/Codex system. The difference between CSM and SM is much larger than the difference between SW and SM. Yet CSM still ended up as SM with spikes.


yep. i meant that.

difference between various warbands/legions/traitor chapter is much more devergent that between Ultreamarines and Wolves. and chaos have 1 codex.

@Badger[Fr]: yeah, 3.5 was as unbalanced as current chaos codex. I'M NOT from 'give me back my uber units and uber option from 3.5!!!'. I want balanced codex .... where every option is a choice, not 'DP is the only true answer' crap.

Mozzamanx
23-08-2008, 19:52
Derailing slightly...

Why do players automatically assume that Chaos players are cheese-vendoring win-monkeys? I played Night Lords in 3.5, with my mighty 4 Fast Attacks and 1 Heavy Support. It was arguably one of the less powerful options, and yet I would take those rules over the new one any day.

And have the new rules really fixed those imbalances? Instead of Iron Warriors with 9 Obliterators and 4 Defilers, you now face 2 Daemon Princes, Plague Marines and 9 Obliterators. Its still a cheese-fest, all the tournament players still take it, except that this one breaks fluff as well as the game.


We still have a power problem, except this one has no fluff or flavour to make the casual Chaos player happy. This just pisses everyone off.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 20:01
We still have a power problem, except this one has no fluff or flavour to make the Chaos player happy. This just pisses everyone off.

Chaos WAAC do not felt pissed from my experience :>

Mozzamanx
23-08-2008, 20:19
No, because the WAAC player still has the bundles of power with which he shall smite the joy from his opponent.

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 20:26
Derailing slightly...

Why do players automatically assume that Chaos players are cheese-vendoring win-monkeys?

Probably because that was the group that was most vocal about the new codex?

Chaos has a list that works in every way and is still highly customisable (second only to eldar - as it has always been) but somehow that isn't good enough. I guess the chaos players are like pigs from animal farm or something - "all armies are created equal, but some a more equal than others".

Mozzamanx
23-08-2008, 20:30
Exactly! Space Marines deserve those 4 extra codexes!! And 3 army-wide rules!

I should be happy that my blood-crazed, 10,000 year old Lord of the God of warfare can be slapped about by a Captain with a Storm shield. Or that my Death Guard Teminators have lost their Fearless and Feel no Pain when they got better armour, and that losing my Icon will somehow take away the Toughness.

God forbid that I should have the option of a Legion in rules, when Orks can have Dreadnoughts as troops. Hell, even Farsight gives you a different army organisation.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 20:40
Probably because that was the group that was most vocal about the new codex?

Chaos has a list that works in every way and is still highly customisable (second only to eldar - as it has always been) but somehow that isn't good enough. I guess the chaos players are like pigs from animal farm or something - "all armies are created equal, but some a more equal than others".

you know you are insulting many peoples, who are not like that ?

chaos codex failed to represent chaos space marine army, and how it behave.

futhermore it created situation, that only tournament viable [very good list] army list is very unfluffy. to add salt to injury, amount of viable units is very, very low. there are options that no sane person will use due to cost or effectivnes - lord/sorcerer/daemon prince without wings/bikers/possessed/spawn/dreadnought/plasma pistol/some icons n some units comes to mind. also some units are unreliable, but cost do not reflect this unreliabilty - spawn/dread/daemon weapon/possessed comes to mind.

this is quite similiar to eldar 3.0 situation - there are some broken combos, and most armies looks same and play same. NO REAL CHOICE.

beside The_Outsider, if we are talking about equal treatment, i point you those 5 marine codices. chaos marines have 1.

i you dont get why i wrote it down, better read posts above instead of posting meaningless and stupid comments.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 20:45
Life isnt fair..... So what?

Badger[Fr]
23-08-2008, 22:04
I want balanced codex .... where every option is a choice, not 'DP is the only true answer' crap.
Granted, the DP is much better than the other HQ choices. Still, a Winged Lord or a Lash Sorcerer are still playable, if not as efficient as the aformentioned DP. You can still make monotheist, fluffy armies, even if they will lack the flavour they had in 3rd Ed: as an exemple, World Eaters and Thousands Sons are much stronger than they used to be.

It's a crappy Codex, I agree, but it's not as bad as some CSM players have previously complained. Try the IG and 3rd Ed ork: now, that's a ****** Dex.

Getting a little off-topic though, so I'll better stop there...

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 22:14
The DP isn't some fantastic HQ choice like people make it out to be, it merely has a cost : power advantage (not much of one I might add) as opposed to the chaos lord or sorceror.

Every unit in the chaos codex has a use if you look for it, the only unit I would never use because its niche might as well not exist is spawn, everything else is a valid and useful choice in an army.

So, I guess its not that the chaos lord/sorc are crap, merely people only want the most powerful option they can get their hands on.

Long_Fang
23-08-2008, 22:18
I should be happy that my blood-crazed, 10,000 year old Lord of the God of warfare can be slapped about by a Captain with a Storm shield.

That's what you get for going to the dark side...really old and no storm shields.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 22:19
;2889885']Granted, the DP is much better than the other HQ choices. Still, a Winged Lord or a Lash Sorcerer are still playable, if not as efficient as the aformentioned DP. You can still make monotheist, fluffy armies, even if they will lack the flavour they had in 3rd Ed: as an exemple, World Eaters and Thousands Sons are much stronger than they used to be.

It's a crappy Codex, I agree, but it's not as bad as some CSM players have previously complained. Try the IG and 3rd Ed ork: now, that's a ****** Dex.

Getting a little off-topic though, so I'll better stop there...

i agree those were worse , but this still is crap.

i actually even use such things like undivided daemon weapons/dreads/bikers with plasmagun/plasma pistol raptors, so i know how they fare :)

problem with monotheist armies lies in icons, if the icon bearer die, they behave like non marked marines.

About World Eaters - with 1/2 counts as, they are one of the best list. Take Lash Prince [count as khorne prince] ;) and lr/rhino berzerkers and obli...or defiler if you want be more true and you're set.

About Thousand Sons - icon sniping hurts, but force with big units of termis/ts/Dp wing wt doom bolt work quite well.

Again, only prince is viable option [or lash sorcerer if go sub-optimal]. Lord is shafted, as are non-slaanesh/non-tzeentch characters.

this codex had potential to be good. with re-worked icons/point costs and without lash. heh, i defended it some time ago.

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 22:26
Again, only prince is viable option [or lash sorcerer if go sub-optimal]. Lord is shafted, as are non-slaanesh/non-tzeentch characters.


This is completely false.

Seriously, it is WAAC players who bitch that nothing but a lash prince is viable when a chaos lord is devastatingly powerful pretty much no matter how you kit him out.

It's like saying no eldar HQ is viable except eldrad - this also is false.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 22:33
This is completely false.

Seriously, it is WAAC players who bitch that nothing but a lash prince is viable when a chaos lord is devastatingly powerful pretty much no matter how you kit him out.

It's like saying no eldar HQ is viable except eldrad - this also is false.

how much points cost such lord ?

90 is a base cost. for weak statline and only 3+/5++ save. said lord cost much more than it is worth. i know it, because i USE him.

i do not want most powerful unit in the game who kill everything. i want every unit to be worth it points. i do not want handicap myself so much by taking non-daemon prince HQ. and by not liking heavy suppor very much.

but most important thing - i want drop pod and proper veteran raptor squad [i dont care if i have to take mark of khorne to do so, i want them behave like vrs]

The_Outsider
23-08-2008, 22:54
90 Points, right that is about right for his statline when compared to things like a SM captain and necron lord.

Seriously, just by the virtue of being a marine he is not weak and the lord can get access to some truly devastating weapons (namely daemon weapons).

Souleater
23-08-2008, 23:03
Firstly, Dark Eldar. I like these guys already. They aren't out to conquer the universe, just survive and be evil. With a cohesive model line and some updated rules the True Kin will be a very popular force.

Next I'd like to see Necron get some tweaks and some plastic love. I like the Elder Gods + Evil Robots schtick. Plus 'Cron got some hard knocks in under the new rules.

Lastly, of the codexes I'm interested in would be Nids. We don't really need any models (except that old fave' platic Gargoyles) but a few tweaks of the rules would be useful.

I really don't care about anybody else...'cept maybe witch hunters who I used to play. An increase in metal figure prices would hit sisters (and DH) pretty hard. So it would be nice to see them get plastizied.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2008, 23:04
90 Points, right that is about right for his statline when compared to things like a SM captain and necron lord.

Seriously, just by the virtue of being a marine he is not weak and the lord can get access to some truly devastating weapons (namely daemon weapons).

really ? so look how much cost captain, and how it is protected. then look at his special rules.


when new codex hit the shelves, captain will have both better stats [same ws, 4++ save] AND will cost less :> you shoot yourself in your feet :>

necron codex is outdated.

daemon weapon is about on par with lighting claws +1A. but lighting claws cant hurt bearer and are far more reliable. truly devastating for bearer :D risk is greater than benefit - it does not prevent me from using those, but i know i'm handicaping myself. and this is not most cost-ineffective i use.

Badger[Fr]
23-08-2008, 23:52
Chaos Lords are slightly overcosted, but they can still deal an impressive amount of damage. A Nurgle Biker Lord wielding a Daemon Weapon is a T4(6) IC with 1d6+3 WS 6 Attacks that always wounds on 4+, and may reroll any failed to wound against T4 or less models. He can wipe out a whole Tactical squad on his own (unless your opponent field a Power Gauntlet, of course), yet only costs 180 points. He's much stronger and worth its points than, say, an Eldar Autarch or an IG HSO (a single, lucky, Multilaser shot can take them down).

kishvier
24-08-2008, 00:00
The Chaos Lord is over priced. They are ineffective except in a few different ways, like Badger said but they still cost a lot more than most of they're equivelents.

the1stpip
24-08-2008, 00:13
Anyways, I think we can agree that SW, DE, LatD and Inq need new codexes (sp ?!?)

There are quite a few unusable units in the De list.

Mandrakes (as I said, crap at doing what they are supposed to do best)
Grotesques (the new rules don't really utilise their abilities)
Warp Beasts
Hellions (overcosted)
Reavers (overcosted)
Talos (too slow for a raiding force)

The Chaos Codex is pretty much balanced, but I agree it is so bland. I have not used my Chaos Army (EC) since the dex came out. I don't feel inspired to use them anymore.

SW are the most interesting of the SM chapters, and lets not get into an argument about why there are 5 SM codexes and every other army gets 1. We all know that Tom Kirby is really the Emperor in disguise, and the SM are his beloved sons.

As far as the Inquisition go, I feel Grey Knights need some attention, as do obviously the Deathwatch. Sisters seem pretty good from what I have seen, and as I am collecting them as my next army, I have studied their dex closely.

I don't really think there is any need for all this beefing at each other. I collect DE and I don't collect SW. Therefore I feel DE are more in need of a dex.

Vaktathi
24-08-2008, 06:31
The DP isn't some fantastic HQ choice like people make it out to be, it merely has a cost : power advantage (not much of one I might add) as opposed to the chaos lord or sorceror. The issue is that the Daemon Prince is effective on his own, a lone Sorcerer or Lord is likely to get smacked by a lascannon, they can't hide behind IC status anymore, and the DP isn't going to get eaten by a powerfist, and for the average cost, is more effective at killing just about anything, look at a 140pt Khorne flying DP versus say a 150pt khornate jump lord with LC's, the Khornate lord can rip up vehicles, hits just about anything but an Avatar or Bloodthirster on 3's, and wounds most things on 2's and ID's T3 multi wound models, the Khornate lord is still useful, but has nowhere near the versatility and is easier to wound and costs more.




Every unit in the chaos codex has a use if you look for it, the only unit I would never use because its niche might as well not exist is spawn, everything else is a valid and useful choice in an army. Yes, however when you look at many of the units, half the options are either punitively costed (Icons of Nurgle and Tzeentch for instance, sometimes Khorne) and many other units are simply far more expensive than they need to be when other units can do the same job cheaper or with less uncertainty.

Look at Dreads for instance, as Firing Platforms they aren't doing their job 33.3% of the time and are shooting their own dudes 16.66% of the time. As a CC platform they are ok, but again tend to not be doing their job 16.66% of the time and they may go after something you don't want it to another 16.66% of the time. Now lets look at Possessed, sure they are a potent CC unit, but can't really make full use of one of their random abilities due to the way its rolled, and most of the others don't really justify their cost. Also for what they cost, Terminators are close, especially after factoring in Icons, and *come* with power weapons, can DS, and have shooty options.



So, I guess its not that the chaos lord/sorc are crap, merely people only want the most powerful option they can get their hands on. Compared to the DP, there is a case to be made that the Lord *is* "crap" for what he costs next to the DP. Lords can't engage as many targets, have to be much more careful about what units they engage (a DP can take 2 PF hits and still be functional, a Lord cannot), and generally costs more after having been tricked out in an attempt to approach the DP's effectiveness. The Sorcerer's psychic powers aren't all that amazing (save for the hideously broken Lash), and while they can be useful, are often very tricky to get off correctly and can generally be done by another unit, and the Sorcerer's combat effectiveness is also generally less than that of the Lord. While the Force Weapon is nice, against many of the units that one would like to use it against, they are ineffective (large Inv saves or the ever increasing immunity to ID)








Probably because that was the group that was most vocal about the new codex? I take *extreme* exception to this comment. Most players I have met and talked with that don't like the current CSM dex aren't whining about the power level. They may whine about the lack of skills and whatnot, but it all boils down to the differentiation for them. A Noise Marine army was *vastly* different in play from a World Eaters army in almost every way, and was equally different from a Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion army.

Now? Sure there may be differences, but its often mostly color scheme.



Chaos has a list that works in every way and is still highly customisable Yes, but half the units are still "take/don't take" and many of the options are simply prohibitively expensive. Sure you can have nurgle bikers or Tzeentch Raptors. Are they in any way effective for what one pays for them? Usually not. Does that help encouraging playing a fluffy army? No.


but somehow that isn't good enough. I guess the chaos players are like pigs from animal farm or something - "all armies are created equal, but some a more equal than others".

Come on, now you're just trolling.

Ghilleman
24-08-2008, 06:39
Codex:Klans.

More realistically, Codex: Imperial Guard

Weed_Bix
24-08-2008, 06:39
DE (i don't like them really but i can see that they are the most neglected and in need of a 'TOTAL' Revamp)
Necrons (I play them and they are pretty darn Boreing and have no variation in their list, just seems to be Warriors galore with a monolith and some destroyers)

Drakon
24-08-2008, 06:52
1st SW
2nd Gaurd
3rd Adetus Mechanicus
4th inquistion
5th Squats :> (bring them back)
then maybe DE :D

DarkMatter2
24-08-2008, 07:04
I feel conflicted - being a huge Guard fanboy I want to see them get a buff - but I don't want to see them become the new "It" army that people play for a few weeks and them dump.

I like the obsessive atmosphere of Guard players we have now.

Kaltenberg
24-08-2008, 07:52
Just my personal wish, update to the the older Codex's first.

Dark Eldar
Necrons
Imperial Guard.
And SoB (perhaps as the Inquisition.)

Then the Not quite making it Codex's
CSM (or just some of the Legions, that would be fine.)
Tau.
Space Marine Chapters. SW, BT, BA, DA..

And then the ones who should always be the coolest..
Eldar
Orks
Marines (with 6th edition.)

Askari
24-08-2008, 13:56
In order of urgency:

Dark Eldar: They really need an update, even if it's just new models and a Tau-> Tau Empire style update.

Imperial Guard: Yeah, they could do with a new one as well.

Chaos Legions: Chaos Space Marines is fine for renegades, rubbish for Legions

Necrons: About time they got a different Troops choice.

Tyranids: Yup, they need re-doing in line with the new Edition too, especially the whole Rending and Venom Cannon glance issues.

Codexes that should NEVER be done:
Space Wolves: Make two new Space Marines Codexes, Angels of Death (Blood Angels and Dark Angels), and Divergent Chapters (Black Templars and Space Wolves). Then they can slowly die off.

Ordo Xenos, Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus: Make it Codex Inquisition. Sorted.

Evil the White
24-08-2008, 14:34
I'd like to see a new IG codex but it's gonna be interesting to see how they're going to convince players that guard are still worth playing in terms of the stupidly high monetary value for the masses of new models that players are going to have to buy once they scrap doctrines and just about every guard army's points drop by at least a third.

It would be nice to see the Ordos Xenos actually get a codex, because they're always mentioned about how they're "dealing with the xenos threats that the others can't handle", and the only unit they have are the deathwatch veterans and possibly including the 'nid war vets, which will probably vanish fairly soon.

tortoise
24-08-2008, 14:50
Chaos legions, chaos legions, chaos legions (Preferably Emperor's Children)

Of course there are more urgent codexes but thats the one I personally want to see.

Second to that is dark eldar. While i quite like guard I will never own a guard army and I doubt that a new codex will contain much in terms of background or new models to really excite me.

zaarin7
24-08-2008, 14:53
Hate to say it but DE need the update first followed by SW. A lot of updating to the more recent codexes can be done with .pdf and White Dwarf articles in the short term.

TimLeeson
25-08-2008, 02:18
Needed imo ;

Codex : Dark Eldar
Codex : Necrons
Codex : Inquisition
Codex : Space Wolves

Essential visual diversity for a huge galaxy that has very little represented IMO ;

Codex : Barghesi
Codex : Enslaver Plagues
Codex : Chaos Aliens
Codex : Q'orl
Codex : Demiurg

Illuminator
25-08-2008, 03:04
Codex Inquisition. It's needed. The INQ fanbase may not be too high, but I love everything about this Imperial organization, thus my vote.

vladsimpaler
25-08-2008, 04:37
Codexes (codexi?) that are needed, in no particular order:

Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Inquisition
Necrons

Codexes that could be made afterwards:

Space Puppies

Reaver83
25-08-2008, 07:52
I think they'll be three new codecies next year, imho it should be DE, guard and Necrons, I'm thinking a joint INQ book will be 2010

CthulhuDalek
25-08-2008, 08:42
Dark Angels are most in need of it, a less than competitive list combined with everything being out of date due to the new vanilla codex. Even Necrons and DE have better lists.

...

Guard are pretty much confirmed as a nearby release, theres even a leaked list around. They don't really need a new book but GW is mad-keen to get rid of the doctrines.

If it's one thing that bothers me it's that there are so many marine codexes. They might as well have just kept a few unique units in the space marine codex which could be unlocked using special characters, and allowed more customizing for vehicles etc.

For example, everyone should be able to take say...chaplains, but perhaps Blood Angels could take a "mark of the blood angel"(type thing) or even select like "Sanguinary Priest" while fielding regular units of tactical squads. In fact, why not just say "If you use a commander with blood angel upgrades you may use assault marines as scoring units)"

Then you could just allow all predators the ability to take assault canons and heavy flamers--why not? more variability amongst chapters. This works for most vehicles. Think of the crusader going for everyone!

I think Guard need a new dex because under 5th edition they simply don't function in a balanced way to other armies. There are redundant rules etc.

To the OP.
For codexes I'd like to see this order(though some have already been confirmed or not it's my own preference)
1. Guard
2. Dark Eldar
3. Crons
4. One Inquisition Book
5. Nids
6.Chaos Traitors.

I really want a new nid dex. I don;t care about new models as much, I love the current ones, but seriously the gaunt needs to be less points and nid shooting should be slightly better, imo. Hormagaunts cost more than an ork and can't do anywhere near as much damage?

CthulhuDalek
25-08-2008, 08:45
I'd like every army to have free download rules, updated every 3months or as needed for FAQ'd Items (hello the power of the internet GW?). In terms of models and Art+Fluff books..

Dark Eldar
Chaos Legions (All 9 Traitor legions, 140 page book)
Imperial Guard
Chapters of Renown (Almost all 9 Loyalist Legions, except UM really)
Necrons
Tyranids
Eldar
6th Edition
Repeat the Above, add Orks
7th Edition
Repeat the Above, add Inquisition (maybe?)

:D

Your post is better than mine, but I'd replace Eldar with Inquisition as one Dex. That'd be a pretty cool idea. I think Eldar already were designed for 5th ed so no reason to give em another set of rules when there are a lot of inquisition rules which don't even affect their proclaimed enemies!

CthulhuDalek
25-08-2008, 09:20
You say that Ultramarines and Space Wolves are they same, but they are not. The Only thing they have in common are a grouding in Wargear and Equipment.

Their Fluff, Structure, tactics, ranks (and therefore Rules) are like chalk and cheese.

Space Wolves need their own codex, and they need it quick as they have the oldest codex out atm (DE got a minor update, I dont care what you say a minor update is an update)

This is absurd in my opinion. THe new Space Marine Codex, as rumours point out--is flexible enough to compensate for almost any of the Space Marine Chapters as it is.

If they are going to do any more Marine updates in General I think they need to two more Codexes.

--Space Marines of Reknown(As stated earlier by others) including BA, DA, SW, Templars etc etc the "famous" chapters.
--Chaos Legions(You know...world eaters, iron warriors blah) and I think it would be cool if Alpha Legion rules could be used to field LaTD

To give Space Wolves their own codex and forcing dexes like Dark Eldar etc further back is crazy. The fact is they are Still Space Marines! They should have included one or two characters into the new Space Marine Codex with new Chapter Rules or different Force Organization abilities.

Why not group some dexes together?
All three Inquisitorial ordos+Mechanicus would work great as one dex.
All Marines.(or all special marines since people will complain)
All Chaos should have been one list...
Imp Guard
Eldar as one large codex perhaps?

BDJV
25-08-2008, 09:30
Space Wolves need a new codex.

At least the Dark Eldar got an update mid third ed which make the SW oldest un-updated dex out there.

Everyone needs to stop kvetching about too many Marine dexs; GW are a business and Marines are their bread and butter.

CthulhuDalek
25-08-2008, 09:44
Space Wolves need a new codex.

At least the Dark Eldar got an update mid third ed which make the SW oldest un-updated dex out there.

Everyone needs to stop kvetching about too many Marine dexs; GW are a business and Marines are their bread and butter.

Games Workshop "NEEDS" a Space Wolves Codex-- Warhammer 40k does not need it for sometime.

Heck, 13th Company rules are still pretty good. Plenty of Counts as Space Wolves army can be created using the new SM or even CSM codex until the other armies have been sorted out appropriately.

Nero
25-08-2008, 10:04
Games Workshop "NEEDS" a Space Wolves Codex-- Warhammer 40k does not need it for sometime.

Heck, 13th Company rules are still pretty good. Plenty of Counts as Space Wolves army can be created using the new SM or even CSM codex until the other armies have been sorted out appropriately.

GW doesn't need Space Wolves. There's a reason DE and SW have taken so long to get an update - nobody plays them. I play in a GW store every week, and I've only ever seen one DE player before (who doesn't play his DE anymore anyway), and I've NEVER seen a Space Wolves player. Ever.

There must be a hundred times as many Guard players as there are SW and DE combined.

(You could say this is because they have such old codexs, but when I say I've never seen a Space Wolves player, I mean I've never even seen a regular SM army painted as SW. They just aren't popular)

BDJV
25-08-2008, 10:28
Games Workshop "NEEDS" a Space Wolves Codex-- Warhammer 40k does not need it for sometime.

Heck, 13th Company rules are still pretty good. Plenty of Counts as Space Wolves army can be created using the new SM or even CSM codex until the other armies have been sorted out appropriately.
Sorry the only Codex that needs updating as badly as the SW are the DE everyone else has been updated or had their codex released after these two.

Why should SW have to counts as their armies because you don't wanna another Marine codex? :wtf:



(You could say this is because they have such old codexs, but when I say I've never seen a Space Wolves player, I mean I've never even seen a regular SM army painted as SW. They just aren't popular)
I really like your broad sweeping statement that SW aren't popular and it has nothing to do with their Codex being old. Nice. :rolleyes:

The Marine hate is gettin' old.

Now I remember why I stay outta general discussion.

march10k
25-08-2008, 11:32
As a DA player, I'd really like to see a PDF that brings our codex into 6th edition, giving us pretty much what codex Space Marines has in most cases. I think it's fine to leave our scouts as elites with 4s across the board with manstopper rounds for their shotguns, but I'd like most of the gear and rules to be C:SM-equivalent, both the good and the bad. I want mortis dreadnaughts, for example, and I understand that the price I have to pay is getting my apothecaries nerfed to "FNP".

As for who needs a full codex, IG, then DE, SW, then SoB. If they lump us in under an abortion of a Codex: Inquisition, there will be murders. SoB are NOT agents of the inquisition, any more than space marines and guardsmen are. l think the best answer is separate codices for SoB and GK, in addition to a PDF for the inquisition.

I've probably entcountered three or four SW players. They're definitely the least popular non-C:SM marine chapter. That doesn't mean they don't need a new codex. In fact, I think a new codex would bring on a space puppy rennaisance. Wait...I'm not sure the Imperium is ready for that...forget everything I said, no SW dex needed! :D

kcaj
25-08-2008, 11:53
DA and BA need to be FAQ'd ASAP and then be redone in the near future... Yeah Inquisition need it... So do IG, Wolves and DE

samiens
25-08-2008, 12:22
Ok, I guess the answer to this question lies in why armies need a new codex. Several armies (Dark Eldar for example) need more fluff and more models but do not need a new codex- people can shout at me if they like but with the exception of Imperial Guard I have played all the armies of the game (OK, a few so that I can help my girlfriend use them but it works out the same)

My number one belief is that the game needs to be good- and all armies need to have a similar power level to achieve that. I like the 5th edition ruleset and just sorting out a few abberant armies would get the game in excellent shape. No armies should lose their codexes- either tradition or genuine need means that this should not happen. Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Templars/Wolves should all have their own codexes and the BA/DA lists are exceptionally competitive (including my beloved DA if used sensibly) and do not require changes (though I would like a redeemer...) So this list, in order of priority, is based on gaming needs, not the age of the books.

1. Imperial guard- a massive army that is severely underpowered- I hate them but they desperately need a new book.

2. Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters- I can see why these might get amalgamated so I've put them together- they are very 3rd edition and need bringing into line.

3. Black Templars- the least competitive marine list needs an overhaul, especially as it is so different to other marine lists.

4. Space Wolves- I think they still work quite well, though some of the options are archaic.

5. Necrons- If only to address things like the C'tan rules and some minor niggles plus they deserve some new options as they are to my knowledge the army with the fewest atm- though they are still competitive- oh, and the monolith needs reworking or recosting.

6. Dark Eldar- these more need new models than anything, although they could do with being toned down, in the hands of a good player they are almost unstoppable- I stopped playing with them because I found it dull to be so overpowered!

7. Tau- If only to redesign their codex and maybe address their troops options- tau are a very good army but the codex is badly set out.

8. Chaos Marines- Chaos have a very balanced codex- even if people don't like it. They're powerful and with a little imagination you can theme an army fine. However, to stop the legion moaning this would be a good idea...

9. Blood Angels- just to have a book really- they are by far the best marine chapter out there.

That's about it until the next round- all the armies would work well and 40k would be the best system out there IMO (though I think its probably that already but I'm coloured by how long 2nd ed took to play!)

Sidstyler
25-08-2008, 12:29
Whoever said CSM needs a new codex most needs a reality check. Tau are my favorite army, but I'm not about to claim they "need" an update more than anyone because their rules are too boring for me. CSM just got an update on top of that, whether you like it or not that book is going to be around for a while.

And the guy who said Dark Angels...wow, seriously? :rolleyes:

As for SW vs. DE, I'd say it's a toss-up. SW need the rules, DE need the background/model range. I'd prefer SW before DE if it meant DE got that much more attention.

Shas'o Zor'bas
25-08-2008, 12:37
I believe that the first army mast be the Dark Eldar. I really want to see these guys again. After that The Imperial Guard book and the Necrons cause they have very few choices

The_Outsider
25-08-2008, 12:50
SW need it more than DE or IG.

Why? The SW codex says "see page 30 in codex SM for landspeeder stats". Well guess what, that was the page ref for the 3rd ed SM codex. It also references wargear that no longer exists or has changed how it works.

Simply put, as a mini codex SW need it more than even the dire DE codex.

LordFulgrim
25-08-2008, 12:59
1. Dark Eldar
2. Imperial Guard
3. Chaos Legions; all in one big codex is fine with me.
4. Loyalist Marines; so SW, DA,BT and BA in one large 'dex.
5. Inquisition; WH, DH plus ?
6. If the Omnissiah is willing Mechanicum would be really cool.

Askari
25-08-2008, 14:24
SW need it more than DE or IG.

Why? The SW codex says "see page 30 in codex SM for landspeeder stats". Well guess what, that was the page ref for the 3rd ed SM codex. It also references wargear that no longer exists or has changed how it works.

Simply put, as a mini codex SW need it more than even the dire DE codex.

I'd wager there are more Dark Eldar players than Space Wolves, besides, Marines are the next codex, and there would be hell to pay if two Marine codexes came out after each other.

They really need to be redone, for some reasons like why I dislike the Chaos Codex: Internal Imbalance [Wyches or Mandrakes? hmm...], lack of background [though what is there is interesting], and otherwise: new models [they are 80% terrible, 10% bad, an 10% passable]

Lord Raneus
25-08-2008, 14:39
Derailing slightly...

Why do players automatically assume that Chaos players are cheese-vendoring win-monkeys? I played Night Lords in 3.5, with my mighty 4 Fast Attacks and 1 Heavy Support. It was arguably one of the less powerful options, and yet I would take those rules over the new one any day.

And have the new rules really fixed those imbalances? Instead of Iron Warriors with 9 Obliterators and 4 Defilers, you now face 2 Daemon Princes, Plague Marines and 9 Obliterators. Its still a cheese-fest, all the tournament players still take it, except that this one breaks fluff as well as the game.


We still have a power problem, except this one has no fluff or flavour to make the casual Chaos player happy. This just pisses everyone off.

Yeah, there was some poor guy on B&C who had a fully converted Emperor's Children army, and can't use 3/4 of it anymore. Same with someone I know, they ran an all-Nurgle army (not the most effective list either) and the new codex greatly inhibits their ability to play a god-specific army.

As for Space Wolves, I firmly believe that any army that has had a full Codex should retain that full Codex and not be rolled up into another army. Besides, it'd be incredibly unfair were DA to get a full book and Space Wolves, by far the most deviant of all the Marine armies, to get rolled up into the Marine codex, or a dinky web PDF. That's just dumb, honestly.

I say Space Wolves, because it can be done quickly without too much work as the minis are fine, followed by Guard, because they have most of the same problems as DE but are a weaker list, and then DE. And after them the Inquisition, with Codex: Alien Hunters added or merged into the Inquisition book (but keep the Chapters Militant seperate, maybe their own book, they deserve it.)

Ubermensch Commander
25-08-2008, 16:24
Yeah, there was some poor guy on B&C who had a fully converted Emperor's Children army, and can't use 3/4 of it anymore. Same with someone I know, they ran an all-Nurgle army (not the most effective list either) and the new codex greatly inhibits their ability to play a god-specific army.

Actually, he probably can use most if not ALL of his list, he just has to "count as". Now, the problem is, this same person(I suspect) loudly complained that he couldnt be bothered to do that.....but then when the Space Marine codex is looming says "oh ok, ill just use that to count as my whole army."
Ah. of course. Because it is just atrocious to count that Pred with Sonic Weapons as a regular pred in the Chaos Codex...but not the Space Marine one. THIS is where the "Chaos players are allergic to balance" statements come from. The false assertion that somehow its VARIATION that the Chaos Players say they want, that they want the FLAVOR of the Chaos Legions....but then jump to the Space Marine codex. That reeks of "ooohh shinier ruels...lets take it!"
Yes the SM codex can be used to represent the Legions....but the Chaos Codex does it better. A Whirlwind does NOT equal an Iron Warriors weapon. Sure, it is a poor man's artillery....but the Defiler is not only CHAOTIC,....it was DESIGNED to breach fortresses. And there are no Oblits in the Space Marine codex.

As for God Specific Armies being inhibited, the marks are gone, but Icons are still there. God Specific armies are not hampered in any way, shape or form. They are different than the last codex. Not hampered. In some ways they got a boost, with more tactical flexibility, like with a Khorne list.

So back the OP Chaos does NOT need a new codex. Space Wolves could use an update, DE could use and update, Necrons could use an update.

the1stpip
25-08-2008, 17:19
I have to agree. I am about to sell my EC army on ebay due to the new Chaos Codex being so awful. While it is very balanced, due to the monster that was v3.5 (and I didn't really abuse it, though many did) it was hit with a very big nerf stick, and the direction of Chaos was totally changed.

Dark Eldar need new models, new fluff and new rules. We all know that certain DE builds are vicious (I use lots of warriors, Raider and Ravagers backed up by Wyches) but half the codex is unusable.

Personally, I am sick of seeing Space Marines get more attention, and every other race getting less. I have a vanilla Space Marine army, and I enjoy playing with them. I don't need special rules. (on the other hand, I shall be using the DA codex to do a Deathwing army, but thats only cos it is cool and there is no other way of doing it).

EVIL INC
25-08-2008, 17:49
1. Gaurd
2. "Legions" For those who want special rules for specific legions.
3. "Chapters" For those who want special rules for specific chapters.
4. Dark Eldar 4th because of thier lack of popularity.
5. Necrons

Inquisitor_Eljer
25-08-2008, 18:14
For me:

Codex: Inquisition
Sisters of Battle
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Ravenguard (like this would EVER happen)

Vaktathi
25-08-2008, 19:21
As for God Specific Armies being inhibited, the marks are gone, but Icons are still there. God Specific armies are not hampered in any way, shape or form. They are different than the last codex. Not hampered. In some ways they got a boost, with more tactical flexibility, like with a Khorne list. Icons *are* a nerf, and a huge hamper. Not only are most of them prohibitively expensive, they don't provide anywhere near the benefit they used to, or what current Cult Troops get, and they are likely to die extremely quickly with the new wound allocation system.

So not only did their cost go up for most units (flat cost rather than a per model cost making it more expensive for most units except those 8-10 strong, so Bikers, many Termi squads, etc cost more in that regard) they recieve less benefit and the benefit they do recieve is lost fairly easily.

Why does a Khornate Terminator not have the same skills as his power armored brethren, and why is he not fearless, and why does he lose his ability to fight harder when some dude carrying a piece of cloth on a pole die? Why are Tzeentch terminators not S&P with Inferno bolts, surely they were as affected by the rubric as any other non-psyker? Why do they lose any extra benefit if the Icon guy dies? Why does a Slaaneshi terminator not have access to the same sonic weaponry has his power armored comrades, and why does he potentially flee when they do not? Why does he lose his gift from the pleasure god when one man in the squad goes down, but the Icon Bearer in the Power Armored squad dies and nothing happens to the squad?



So back the OP Chaos does NOT need a new codex. Some would say Chaos could use an *expansion* codex, keep the current one for generic chaos space pirates, and make a seperate Legions codex. Lets be honest here, there's a far larger difference between the way the Emperor's Children work and say, Huron's raiders, or between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors, both far more so than between some of the SM chapters with their own books, and its apparent that the last codex wasn't exactly a stellar success in terms of popularity, powergaming arguments aside.


Space Wolves could use an update, DE could use and update, Necrons could use an update. Not the poor Imperial Guard?

Ubermensch Commander
25-08-2008, 20:31
Icons *are* a nerf, and a huge hamper. Not only are most of them prohibitively expensive, they don't provide anywhere near the benefit they used to, or what current Cult Troops get, and they are likely to die extremely quickly with the new wound allocation system.

You are right. They dont provide the beefs they used to. The rules changed.



So not only did their cost go up for most units (flat cost rather than a per model cost making it more expensive for most units except those 8-10 strong, so Bikers, many Termi squads, etc cost more in that regard) they recieve less benefit and the benefit they do recieve is lost fairly easily.[/QUOTE]

I have never seen the icon lost until the entire unit is wiped out. This "fairl easily" thing i have heard seems to be only when compared

Why does a Khornate Terminator not have the same skills as his power armored brethren, and why is he not fearless, and why does he lose his ability to fight harder when some dude carrying a piece of cloth on a pole die? Why are Tzeentch terminators not S&P with Inferno bolts, surely they were as affected by the rubric as any other non-psyker? Why do they lose any extra benefit if the Icon guy dies? Why does a Slaaneshi terminator not have access to the same sonic weaponry has his power armored comrades, and why does he potentially flee when they do not? Why does he lose his gift from the pleasure god when one man in the squad goes down, but the Icon Bearer in the Power Armored squad dies and nothing happens to the squad?[/QUOTE]

How does an entire army of frothing madmen exist? Why doesnt the Nurgle Terminator's armour rot from the inside out? How does Tzeentch replace its numbers if "all are dust"? How do you mount a Sonic Weapon terminator armor?

Why didnt these terminator units exist with this weaponry in 3rd or 2nd edition?

The cult specific troops are those completely dedicated to and lost on the pat of their chosen patron god. Would you let a frothing madman into your expensive and precious suits or terminator armor? Would they even go inside of them if it meant not being able to close with the enemy as fast? The icons represent those that worship their god and fight for his favor....which is granted so long as they do not let his colors drop.
Whether you like it or not, you CAN represent the cult terminators, the rules are just DIFFERENT. Hell, you can even do cult armies. Can still do God Specific Bikes, etc, and now you can even throw the icon of the god onto things like Raptors.
Individual units may have toned down to balance against greater tactical flexibility.
And in some case, more honest fluff representation such as Heavy Weapon toting devotees of Khorne in a World Eaters army.
all this aside, Chaos Terminators are only 30 points base i believe. The price of two tactical marines.....so you get a deep striking 2+ sv power weapon wielding mad man for 30 points.....sounds cool to me.


[/QUOTE]Some would say Chaos could use an *expansion* codex, keep the current one for generic chaos space pirates, and make a seperate Legions codex. Lets be honest here, there's a far larger difference between the way the Emperor's Children work and say, Huron's raiders, or between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors, both far more so than between some of the SM chapters with their own books, and its apparent that the last codex wasn't exactly a stellar success in terms of popularity, powergaming arguments aside.[/QUOTE]

That is what army composition is for. 2nd edition, which introduced the Legions relied on army comp and a pain job to represent the Chaos Legions. Would you say any army from that era WASN'T a Chaos Legion force simply because it does not have army wide rules that existed only for 3.5?
You want to represent Night Lords? Paint them up, use minimum amounts of cult troops have a field day.
Iron Warriors? Oblits, Defilers, heavy weapon toting troopers. Take along some Zerks as the troops that storm the breach, tah dah. Now you can even do Siege Troopers in the form of converted Death Guard.
Emps Children? Marks of Slaanesh for days, Noise Marines. Yes, they lost Sonic Weaponry on everything(Dreads and other Vehicles speifically). That was around only for the 3.5 dex and is now gone again. That does not mean your army is no longer an "Emperor's Children army" it just means the rules representing them changed.
World Eaters=Virtually unchanged. Seriously. other than some equipment from 3.5 and the God Specific Daemons, I believe you can include the exact same stuff in the new codex....plus some more. Dreads are still there, Preds are still there, Zerks are still there, Khorne Terminators are still there. If I missed something....oops. its been a bit since i looked at the book.
As for that great a difference, the Legions use the same equipment. It is just the distribution of it and how they apply it that matters. The Night Lords used the same jump pack troops the World Eaters used, only more frequently.

As for a Legion expansion....sure. I would LOVE to see Index Astartes articles brought back into white dwarf magazine. Might make them worth buying again. And while they are at it they can add Craftworld rules and Ork Klan rules. I think a special character to enhance each force would be fitting. But it is not necessary and those whose codexes are a decade or so old require attention first.
Frankly I questioned the Legions fighting as LEGIONS in the last codex. Broken at the Siege of Terra, cast into a hell hole away from their supply lines, dissension within their ranks and outside their ranks(Typhus, Kharne, Ahriman are examples of internal strife and the intercine conflicts for resources in the Eye of Terror as examples of external strife.) made me wonder how there were any Chaos Marines left to fight against the Imperium. and i hear "time flows differently in the warp." Yeah that's cool...but which is it? It flows really fast allowing them an advanced recruitment time or it flows really slow, enabling those same "traitors from the siege of terra" to attack the Imperium still? *scratches head* hmm....Chaos did it. gotcha.
Currently GW has chosen to go the splintered warbands route with only Legion level capabilities emering in large scale conflicts (Apocalypse).



[/QUOTE]Not the poor Imperial Guard?[/QUOTE]
The Imp guard were more recently update than all the others I threw out there. Hence why i didnt mention them. I suppos they could use an update....after the Inquisition. The Ordo Xenos just got FORGOTTEN.

CthulhuDalek
25-08-2008, 20:43
Sorry the only Codex that needs updating as badly as the SW are the DE everyone else has been updated or had their codex released after these two.

Why should SW have to counts as their armies because you don't wanna another Marine codex? :wtf:


I really like your broad sweeping statement that SW aren't popular and it has nothing to do with their Codex being old. Nice. :rolleyes:

The Marine hate is gettin' old.

Now I remember why I stay outta general discussion.

Because Marines are marines whatever color you paint them? I am actually a past marine player(Blood Angels) a Chaos player and I'm about to start marines. The problem with marines is the fact that as soon as you think your codex can be used to make all the variants, they come out with a whole codex for one of your chapters! I really don't want to have to buy 5 different marine books to play one of the variants.

I love marines but consolidate them into one or two codexes. Heck, if they did a marine chapters of renown codex, it could be 144 pages long and like the new marine codex with full army lists and such for BA,DA,Wolves, and BT.

Vaktathi
25-08-2008, 20:49
You are right. They dont provide the beefs they used to. The rules changed. Exactly, my point was that they *did* get hampered and don't do as good a job at portraying Legion units as they used to.





I have never seen the icon lost until the entire unit is wiped out. This "fairl easily" thing i have heard seems to be only when compared Have you seen the 5th ed wound allocation rules? *EVERY* unit must take a wound before a second can be assigned to another, you have to allocate wounds per model, meaning if a 10man CSM squad takes 12 wounds, at least one is going on the Icon.



How does an entire army of frothing madmen exist? Because its what they are and have always been.


Why doesnt the Nurgle Terminator's armour rot from the inside out? Now you are just being pedantic, why wouldn't it do the same to Nurgle power armor? wouldn't termi armor be more resistant?


How does Tzeentch replace its numbers if "all are dust"? Why would this then not apply to the basic squads either?


How do you mount a Sonic Weapon terminator armor? Same way you do on a suit of power armor? they had these options previously.



Why didnt these terminator units exist with this weaponry in 3rd or 2nd edition? well for 2nd ed its because the legion fluff was still very weak, although I thought you could have them, maybe I'm just thinking of the options the Marks did back then. The 3.0 codex was just downright terrible however, and had practically nothing for anything.



The cult specific troops are those completely dedicated to and lost on the pat of their chosen patron god. Would you let a frothing madman into your expensive and precious suits or terminator armor? What if he already has it? Remember that *all* the world eaters have the same Berserker surgery and are dedicated to Khorne, why would their *ELITE* be any different, much less weaker except for equipment?


Would they even go inside of them if it meant not being able to close with the enemy as fast? Terminator armor is no slower in terms of marching across the field than other armor, and in fact has been well represented since 2nd ed, the only difference has been in running down enemies. World Eaters in Termi' armor got rather cool termi armor in 2nd ed, 2+ save on 2d6 when other termi's had a 3+ and normal WE power armor was a 2+ save as opposed to the normal power armor save of 3+ (modifiers appleid of course)


The icons represent those that worship their god and fight for his favor....which is granted so long as they do not let his colors drop. Why do Cult "troops" not suffer the same consequences then? Why do they remain whole after losing a banner, or not require one in the first place?



Whether you like it or not, you CAN represent the cult terminators, the rules are just DIFFERENT. Most would say poorly done. Yes its different. It doesn't mean they did a good job or that players like it or that if fits with the fluff in any way.


Hell, you can even do cult armies. Can still do God Specific Bikes, etc, and now you can even throw the icon of the god onto things like Raptors. I didn't say you couldn't. I said it wasn't a good representation and that they way they did it sucked.



Individual units may have toned down to balance against greater tactical flexibility. or just ease of writing. Sonic Terminators at 36pts each wouldn't have been a big deal to include I don't think, and certainly wouldn't have been overpowered, but still useful and fun.



And in some case, more honest fluff representation such as Heavy Weapon toting devotees of Khorne in a World Eaters army. Since 2nd ed however, the world eaters have been described as abandoning all other weapons for CCW's, it was in the 2nd ed, 3.0 and 3.5 codex.

*Other* khorne devoted outfits may use heavy weapons, but WE's have always been a CC army.



all this aside, Chaos Terminators are only 30 points base i believe. The price of two tactical marines.....so you get a deep striking 2+ sv power weapon wielding mad man for 30 points.....sounds cool to me. Not debating that, what I was debating was the Icon system and its relative cost-benefit and relation to fluff.



That is what army composition is for. 2nd edition, which introduced the Legions relied on army comp and a pain job to represent the Chaos Legions. Would you say any army from that era WASN'T a Chaos Legion force simply because it does not have army wide rules that existed only for 3.5? No, but they also expanded *Greatly* on the Legion fluff since then.



You want to represent Night Lords? Paint them up, use minimum amounts of cult troops have a field day.
Iron Warriors? Oblits, Defilers, heavy weapon toting troopers. Take along some Zerks as the troops that storm the breach, tah dah. Now you can even do Siege Troopers in the form of converted Death Guard.
Emps Children? Marks of Slaanesh for days, Noise Marines. Yes, they lost Sonic Weaponry on everything(Dreads and other Vehicles speifically). That was around only for the 3.5 dex and is now gone again. That does not mean your army is no longer an "Emperor's Children army" it just means the rules representing them changed. Many players take it as their army isn't as well represented however, and that is a key failure on GW's part.





As for a Legion expansion....sure. I would LOVE to see Index Astartes articles brought back into white dwarf magazine. Might make them worth buying again. And while they are at it they can add Craftworld rules and Ork Klan rules. I think a special character to enhance each force would be fitting. But it is not necessary and those whose codexes are a decade or so old require attention first. I wouldn't argue with that, however it would be nice to see them, and fairly soon. Given that they already made rules for them for Apoc, it wouldn't be too hard.




[/QUOTE]Not the poor Imperial Guard?[/QUOTE]
The Imp guard were more recently update than all the others I threw out there. Hence why i didnt mention them. I suppos they could use an update....after the Inquisition. [/quote] True, but 5th ed *really* hurt IG armies sadly


The Ordo Xenos just got FORGOTTEN. yeah, now basically they are just Sternguard vets.

Bloodknight
25-08-2008, 20:52
The Imp guard were more recently update than all the others I threw out there.

Correct. The IG codex is from 2003, Necs and current DE are from 2002. Doesn't change that Necs and DE are more competitive than the Guard ;). The armies are also equally bland due to lack of usable unit types.

Does anybody know when the Inquisition codices were written? I've only got the German online versions (they are available from GW), and they say copyright 2007.

Mozzamanx
25-08-2008, 21:02
Derailing into the Legion argument once again..

It is NOT hard to include their rules, and make it balanced. I did it in 20 minutes, and I'm an idiot. All it takes is a double page spread, in a book which is already 100 odd pages. It could be a White Dwarf addition for all I care, since it only adds on to the book rather than drastically changing it.

And yet, such a tiny change would be a massive relief for the thousands of Chaos players everywhere.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155991

Self advertisement FTW. That is what I came up with, and it probably has glaring issues, but I'm not a games designer.
Chaos players, would you be happy printing off a couple extra pages for your codex?
Ubermensch, what do you think? Seeing as you seem to be the expert on what makes a Legion, are my rules closer to the fluff than the codex? Do they detract from it at all?

The_Outsider
25-08-2008, 21:40
ITT chaos players only wanting gimmicky rules when they are beneficial (ref: cult squad sizes, cheap as hell vet skills) and not when they might not be advantageous 100% of the time (ref: dreadnaughts and possessed).

Revlid
25-08-2008, 21:49
ITT chaos players only wanting gimmicky rules when they are beneficial (ref: cult squad sizes, cheap as hell vet skills) and not when they might not be advantageous 100% of the time (ref: dreadnaughts and possessed).

Alternatively, ITT Chaos players who are rather miffed that they're lost the positive 'gimmicky rules' that demonstrate the favour of Chaos, while keeping the negative 'gimmicky rules' that demonstrate its wrath.

Also, ITT Chaos players who are rather miffed that they, supposedly the embodiment of randomness, chaos, and the darkness of the mortal heart, the beast with a thousand faces and a thousand agendas, are less customizable than Space Marines, who are supposedly bound to one single code of conduct that does not differ from army to army.

The_Outsider
25-08-2008, 21:53
Alternatively, ITT Chaos players who are rather miffed that they're lost the positive 'gimmicky rules' that demonstrate the favour of Chaos, while keeping the negative 'gimmicky rules' that demonstrate its wrath.

They were terrible to represent favour of chaos. Fair enough the system we have now has no middle ground, you're either a die hard supporter or just think that nurgle is a rather nice guy, but it works better than what came before it.


Also, ITT Chaos players who are rather miffed that they, supposedly the embodiment of randomness, chaos, and the darkness of the mortal heart, the beast with a thousand faces and a thousand agendas, are less customizable than Space Marines, who are supposedly bound to one single code of conduct that does not differ from army to army.

Currently? Chaos destroys SM for customisability and chaos frankly has the most powerful troops selection in the game hands down. You could build an army solely from the troop choices and you'd easily compete with most forces that utilise all other slots.

samiens
25-08-2008, 22:16
The funny thing is I only hear whining about legions on forums- I play a lot in a lot of different places and the people I know who go out and play every week just get on with it. Would Chaos legions be a good thing? Personally I'm not fussed- my Death Guard are totally fluffy (not even a rhino!) and play just fine with this book. Would it sell? Probably and that's why we will have one.

I do think its selfish that players want legions before codexes that are undeniably weak like Imperial Guard- the Chaos book plays fine- I'm persistently told its not about power. Well in that case people should wait while armies that do suffer (IG, GKs etc) get done first. What's more important: having a blastmaster on a dreadnaught or having Imperial Guard worth playing (with or against- I don't find outclassing my opponent's utterly that much fun)?

No company always gets it right but the game and the power level equilibrium we have now is the best its ever been (I've been around since the early days- eg I know that in second edition it was a 3+ save on 2d6 for termies [lol couldn't resist]). We should be more grateful sometimes

Vaktathi
25-08-2008, 22:50
ITT chaos players only wanting gimmicky rules when they are beneficial (ref: cult squad sizes, cheap as hell vet skills) and not when they might not be advantageous 100% of the time (ref: dreadnaughts and possessed).

ITT: This isn't 4chan and trolling doesn't get "lulz", responding intelligently to arguments made with counter arguments is nice however.

The problem with possessed is that their abilities may or may not be useful, especially given the way they are rolled for, and for what they cost, the other alternatives are at least as good with more flexibility. Are they an ok CC unit? sure. Are there better units for that purpose for the points and slots that also fit into most armies fluff? yes. Cool idea, poor implementation. You can't blame people for that.

As for dreadnaughts, what is their "big" advantage? They get an extra attack over normal dreads, but then are not useful at all as firing platforms and derive their primary use as heavy CC platforms, but one will not be useful in that role at least one turn per game, and are easy targets as they stomp across the board. Again, cool idea, but the random factor doesn't add anything, it doesn't balance out anything, it just makes them a mediocre heavy CC unit and a poor firing platform.



They were terrible to represent favour of chaos. Fair enough the system we have now has no middle ground, you're either a die hard supporter or just think that nurgle is a rather nice guy, but it works better than what came before it. Some of the wargear was over the top, sure, but what was wrong with Marks? What was wrong with Sonic Weaponry options? What was wrong with the Destroyer or Coruscating Warp Flame?

While some of the sublists were ill thought out, as were some of the wargear options, the majority of it was sound or fixable.

anyway, as its off topic I'll make this my last post on the subject *here*.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-08-2008, 23:52
Icons *are* a nerf, and a huge hamper. Not only are most of them prohibitively expensive, they don't provide anywhere near the benefit they used to, or what current Cult Troops get, and they are likely to die extremely quickly with the new wound allocation system.

True

So not only did their cost go up for most units (flat cost rather than a per model cost making it more expensive for most units except those 8-10 strong, so Bikers, many Termi squads, etc cost more in that regard) they recieve less benefit and the benefit they do recieve is lost fairly easily.

Also True

Why does a Khornate Terminator not have the same skills as his power armored brethren, and why is he not fearless, and why does he lose his ability to fight harder when some dude carrying a piece of cloth on a pole die? Why are Tzeentch terminators not S&P with Inferno bolts, surely they were as affected by the rubric as any other non-psyker? Why do they lose any extra benefit if the Icon guy dies? Why does a Slaaneshi terminator not have access to the same sonic weaponry has his power armored comrades, and why does he potentially flee when they do not? Why does he lose his gift from the pleasure god when one man in the squad goes down, but the Icon Bearer in the Power Armored squad dies and nothing happens to the squad?

Becouse not every terminator who pray for khorne is Corn Berzerker, not every Tzeentch terminator is from thousand sons legion, not every Nurgle Terminator [b]is[/n] Plague Marine, and last but not least, not every frikkin' Slaaneshi worshiper in TDA is Noise Marine.

Some would say Chaos could use an *expansion* codex, keep the current one for generic chaos space pirates, and make a seperate Legions codex. Lets be honest here, there's a far larger difference between the way the Emperor's Children work and say, Huron's raiders, or between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors, both far more so than between some of the SM chapters with their own books, and its apparent that the last codex wasn't exactly a stellar success in terms of popularity, powergaming arguments aside.

it even failed to portray space pirates currentely :>

Occulto
26-08-2008, 00:58
I do think its selfish that players want legions before codexes that are undeniably weak like Imperial Guard- the Chaos book plays fine- I'm persistently told its not about power. Well in that case people should wait while armies that do suffer (IG, GKs etc) get done first. What's more important: having a blastmaster on a dreadnaught or having Imperial Guard worth playing (with or against- I don't find outclassing my opponent's utterly that much fun)?

Quoted for truth.

GW need to set the baseline with the generic codices first, before releasing a swag of sub-lists covering Legions, Craftworlds, Regiments, Clans and so on. So far, they've done a pretty reasonable job of it IMHO.

Now yes, the SM are exceptions to this rule, but their releases are easy money for GW and pretty much fund all the other releases. I don't want a DE release that's pathetic because they didn't have the resources to update any of the models.

Ddraiglais
26-08-2008, 13:14
No company always gets it right but the game and the power level equilibrium we have now is the best its ever been (I've been around since the early days- eg I know that in second edition it was a 3+ save on 2d6 for termies [lol couldn't resist]). We should be more grateful sometimes

At least until the SM dex gets released.

EVIL INC
26-08-2008, 13:41
Remember this is not a "lets whine about the new chaos codex" thread. Nor is it a "lets sing the praises of the new chaos codex thread.
Please leave the good/bad chaos codex topic at the door.