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Malevon
22-08-2008, 01:23
Does the Deathwatch have Dreadnoughts? I don't think so, as they simply borrow Marines from other Chapters, who are eventually returned. I guess a Marine worth interring in a Dreadnought could die while in service to the Deathwatch, but it seems like they'd return him to his Chapter. Also, I guess they could borrow a Dreadnought from another Chapter, paint it up as their own, and then return it when they're done, but this seems like a stretch.

My friend is building an Ordo Xenos army, and I want to make sure I'm right before I tell him he shouldn't really have Dreadnoughts. Not Deathwatch ones at least.

Malevon
22-08-2008, 01:33
On second thought, neither of those are that unreasonable. I guess they could with a little creativity.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2008, 01:40
Fundamentally, noone really knows much about how much hardware the Deathwatch have. Now, as far as I know, there have been no Deathwatch Dreadnoughts mentioned ever, nor have they displayed any hardware bigger than a rhino. That's not to say that they don't have bigger gear, we just haven't seen it (so if they do have heavy armour, it is probably pretty rare).

It's not impossible - theoretically, a Dreadnought could be seconded to the Ordo Xenos, after all, who's going to argue? - but some people might take umbridge with it. Personally, I think I'd rather see Deathwatch Dreadnoughts than Deathwatch Predators or Land Raiders (just a matter of personal opinion). As big as they are, they're fairly adaptable and could be suited to providing covering fire for a Kill Team. It's possible that the Deathwatch might maintain their own Dreadnoughts - fallen Kill Team members might be interred after falling in the service of the Inquisition and it's not like the Ordo Xenos couldn't aquire such things - thereby becoming a permanent member of the Deathwatch. Alternatively, a Dreadnought may be recruited directly from the parent Chapter just like a Battle Brother (although it does seem dubious that the parent Chapter would allow such a precious artefact away "on loan".)

Ultimately, however, all things obey the rule of cool. If well done, a DW dreadnought could be cool (lots of potential for adding gothic lettering and inquisitorial symbols) so if he wants to go for it then I say do it!

PondaNagura
22-08-2008, 01:42
the one i was going to use was that the deathwatch uncovered a former marine world that had been decimated. they found one marine in sus-an and a slumbering dread sealed up in a collapsed part of the catacombs. the marine had geneseed but the dread did not; and so they would serve out the remainder of their service to the deathwatch, lacking in a chapter to return to.

Feor
22-08-2008, 01:58
A deathwatch member could be intered in a Dreadnought while serving with the Deathwatch, then returned to his chapter when the OX was finished with him. The deathwatch is happy cause they get a dreadnought for bustin heads for awhile, and the chapter's happy cause they get a brand new, hard to replace dreadnought sarcophogus, along with a much more experianced battle brother inside it.

Malevon
22-08-2008, 02:52
Seems to me like if the Deathwatch went to the trouble of requisitioning a Dreadnought for a Marine who died in their service, they'd just keep the fella. Either way though, my friend can field Dreadnoughts.

Feor
22-08-2008, 03:12
Don't forget that a Dread isn't actually a robot, there's a real live marine in there who would probably be none too pleased if the Deathwatch just decided to keep him.

Malevon
22-08-2008, 03:18
I know that. Marines are pretty disciplined though, and as long as he's not from one of the more barbaric Chapters, he'd probably respect the chain of command. (I.E. The Inquisition can do whatever it wants.)

PondaNagura
22-08-2008, 03:22
well they cant do everything they want, the last thing you'd want is an entire chapter of angry marines because someone nicked their beloved fell-brother, but i think if in certain circumstances there could be dreads tied to the ordo. actually another possibility could be a smaller chapter from the cursed or 13th foundings who were requisitioned just for the sole role of fighting xenos...

Koryphaus
22-08-2008, 03:52
I can't see why the Ordo Xenos couldn't get their hands on some of the new dreadnoughts that the AdMech builds. The Inquisiton is pretty resourcefull after all.

I think a Deathwatch Land Raider would look so sick.. All black and silver with big Ordo Xenos markings..

Vaz84
22-08-2008, 04:29
I think the whole idea of kill-team is mobile insertion team, even more so than normal space marines, this is why the heavy bolter even had move and fire rules (correct me if I'm wrong) . Fluff wise I cant really see them having much use for a Dreadnought. As a kill team is likely just a handful of marines sent in ahead of anything else, quiet possibly to missions with a high probability of death.

But its a big universe, anything can happen :D Just Say Yes.

imperial_scholar
22-08-2008, 04:38
I think a deathwatch Rhino and a Deathwatch Dreadnought are 2 different things...
A rhino is hearty and doesn't require a lot of attention for TechMarines. If you read any fluff it takes a lot of work from a TechMarine to wake up a dreadnought from its slumber.

I'm not saying its impossible; just the Dreadnought requires its own level of logistics. So he'd need a TechMarine included in his army/story.

Most likely a Dreadnought could be given on Loan I'm sure as the Death Watch can contain a librarian or even a captain (both very valuable chapter resources)... it wouldn't but too much of a stretch to include a dreadnought. The only issue I'd have really is again.. the logistics... someones gotta look after the dreadnought.

[Edit]
I agree with Vaz84 though, Kill Teams are more for suicide like missions (quick and stealthy). I don't think a dreadnought fills that requirement. But a deathwatch army.. then yes.. however Deathwatch armies do not exist.

As far as the rules go... no he cannot have a dreadnought. Its not in a chapter approved... and its not in the codex. Grey Knights dreadnought.. yes.. but not Deathwatch.

Malevon
22-08-2008, 04:38
More often than not Grey Knights are deployed in very small numbers as well, but we occasionally see their vehicles deployed. I don't think Deathwatch would be very much rarer.

DarkAzrael169
22-08-2008, 04:39
I don't get it. Why borrow marines and stuff when they could just start a chapter and call it the Deathwatch Chapter. Problem solved. Stupid fluff, forgive the rant please. I doubt sucha dreadnaught would exist.

imperial_scholar
22-08-2008, 04:43
More often than not Grey Knights are deployed in very small numbers as well, but we occasionally see their vehicles deployed. I don't think Deathwatch would be very much rarer.
Actually Deathwatch are much more rarer as Grey Knights are pretty much a true chapter. Deathwatch are more assembled for a specific need.

I don't get it. Why borrow marines and stuff when they could just start a chapter and call it the Deathwatch Chapter. Problem solved. Stupid fluff, forgive the rant please. I doubt sucha dreadnaught would exist.
A deathwatch army would be a 'crusade' army ;)

Malevon
22-08-2008, 05:02
You're right, there are 3000 Grey Knights, and probably at most times far fewer Deathwatch, but I was just saying neither are often deployed (fluffwise) in great numbers, yet we see Grey Knight vehicles on the tabletop.

DarkAzrael169
22-08-2008, 05:11
Actually Deathwatch are much more rarer as Grey Knights are pretty much a true chapter. Deathwatch are more assembled for a specific need.

A deathwatch army would be a 'crusade' army ;)

hahahaha I like the way you think :evilgrin:

imperial_scholar
22-08-2008, 05:16
You're right, there are 3000 Grey Knights, and probably at most times far less Deathwatch, but I was just saying neither are often deployed (fluffwise) in great numbers, yet we see Grey Knight vehicles on the tabletop.

Actually.. Grey Knights have been deployed in great numbers. The first war for Armageddon (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/First_War_for_Armageddon) saw a huge rapid deployment of Grey Knights and wiped out the grey knights to about a dozen and lost their chapter master.

[Edit]
Sorry.. it was a Captain that was sacrificed in the end.

[Edit:Edit]

hahahaha I like the way you think :evilgrin:
I don't call myself imperial scholar for nothing

Scion of Ferrus
22-08-2008, 09:34
In my Iron Hands Successor Chapter - Scions of Ferrus, 90% of the HQ, all Veterans and all of my Tactical Squads are Deathwatch Veterans.

It isn't that much of a leap of faith;

If one of my Veterans die in battle for him to be interred in a Dreadnought.
Storm Bolter with Kraken Rounds anyone?:chrome:

heretics bane
22-08-2008, 10:52
He could be a maine with extensive experience in fighting said xenos race and was brought in to help the DW?

ADF
22-08-2008, 13:27
Well, while there are fewer deathwatch marines at a given moment, the number of marines that were part of the deathwatch for a certain time is very high; after all, they return to their chapters, to spread techniques and knowledge for fighting aliens (if it's deemed safe to spread by the Inquisition).
Case in point, the dread sounds reasonable, especially because it's doppable in pods. If the DW has something more powerfull than termies at all, it should be a dread:
It's mobile, flexible (armament), and powerful. En plus, the thought of a kill-team led by a venerable dread in DW colours and iconographics is just to cool to let it go...

Templar Ben
22-08-2008, 13:31
I don't think it would be a problem to inter a marine in a dread at all.

"We regret to inform you that Battle Brother Ignatius was lost while fighting Xeno is sector 422."

Then they put said fallen soldier into a dread that they have acquired. The original chapter doesn't worry because Deathwatch marines die all the time. This is war and things happen. The Deathwatch now have a dreadnought that they can pull out whenever needed.

Adra
22-08-2008, 16:29
Im sure a battle brother in a dread would answer the honour dept to the Ordo if called on to do so.

Disciple of Caliban
22-08-2008, 18:46
He could be a maine with extensive experience in fighting said xenos race and was brought in to help the DW?

I like this one.

I mean come on, if a deathwatch captain asks a brother marine (who happens to be in a dreadnought) for help then he's highly unlikely to say no.

The idea of the deathwatch 'keeping' a marine that died in service is a bad idea in my opinion. No marine chapter in existence (except maybe grey knights) would follow the idea that 'the inquisition can do what they like'. Marines take great pride in the fact that they need answer only to the emperor. As an example i'll offer the novel 'Ragnars claw' (ok, space wolves are a pretty headstrong force, but i cant think of many other books were marines and inquisitors work together), not only does ragnar almost strangle a jnr inquisitor, but Sergeant Hakon has no qualms standing up to Sternberg.

Basically if a marine dies in service to deathwatch and they put him in a dread (quite plausible, i doubt there is much hardware that the deathwatch struggle to get hold of) then he'd still expect to be sent back to his chapter after his service was completed. No inquisitor would be foolish enough to try and kidnap a marine that they'd interred in a dreadnought, and if they did they'd rapidly find themselves dead, inquisitors are pretty tough and resourceful, but not the equal of a marine in combat again i'll reference ragnars claw 'for a moment it seemed they might come to blows (Hakon and the inquisitor), Ragnar had no doubt who would win in that situation' (the quote probably isnt exact, but the point is the same)

Finnith
22-08-2008, 19:06
Even if a marine is killed in combat many chapters would expect a body or at least what was left of the marine back at the end of their tour. The power armour, bolter and geneseed is still property of the chapter afterall.

The marines arnt brainwashed entering or exiting the deathwatch so tales of kidnapping marines and hording precious dreadnoughts which usually belong to the chapters would not go down to well when the next wave of recruits is politely requested. However rewarding chapters which give alot of marines to the deathwatch with dreadnoughts to take home after their marine has done their duty. This could carry favor and increase said chapters ties with the inquisition allowing them a better response rate when needing an entire chapter.

Even the inquisition need to grease the wheels occasionally.

Decius
22-08-2008, 19:38
If Deathwatch are assembled based on the threat, couldn't the Ordo Xenos specifically request a dreadnought? In any case, there are many reasons that the deathwatch could borrow a dread, the most important one is that it's cool.

To the OP, tell your friend that the best way to make his idea fly would be too make the dread a good looking model. Good looking models will grease the wheels of people's approval. If it looks sub-par, it'd be like sanding the wheels.

imperial_scholar
22-08-2008, 20:01
Im sure a battle brother in a dread would answer the honour dept to the Ordo if called on to do so.
Asking a captain to join is one thing, but no company owns its own dreadnoughts thus captain would have no say to order a dreadnought to do anything.

I don't think it would be a problem to inter a marine in a dread at all.

"We regret to inform you that Battle Brother Ignatius was lost while fighting Xeno is sector 422."

Then they put said fallen soldier into a dread that they have acquired. The original chapter doesn't worry because Deathwatch marines die all the time. This is war and things happen. The Deathwatch now have a dreadnought that they can pull out whenever needed.
Well.. no. Dreadnoughts are not Rhinos. They are RARE! They would have to have captured a dreadnought (from chaos? or renegade marines) which probably not what the Ordos Xenos would be doing. In addition, plugging in a marine into a dreadnought is not like plugging your TV into a wall socket. You'd need knowledge of both technology and biology.

Well, while there are fewer deathwatch marines at a given moment, the number of marines that were part of the deathwatch for a certain time is very high; after all, they return to their chapters, to spread techniques and knowledge for fighting aliens (if it's deemed safe to spread by the Inquisition).
Marines are not at the beckon call to join an inquisitor at any time. And the point of the deathwatch is to be very few in numbers. You are plain wrong. Yes they return to their chapters... but the experience of 'shooting them in the soft spot' is already well known to marines (for known aliens). So its valuable, but 1 marine can do the same job.. a dreadnought wouldn't be as good at sharing learned knowledge because their minds are already clouded.


Case in point, the dread sounds reasonable, especially because it's doppable in pods. If the DW has something more powerfull than termies at all, it should be a dread:
It's mobile, flexible (armament), and powerful. En plus, the thought of a kill-team led by a venerable dread in DW colours and iconographics is just to cool to let it go...
Again, the point is that a chapter wouldn't want to just 'give up' valueable resources such as dreadnought tactical armour (Termies) or dreadnoughts. As someone said... they are likely to die. Why would they turn over a valuable resource as a dreadnought to a doomed mission.


I mean come on, if a deathwatch captain asks a brother marine (who happens to be in a dreadnought) for help then he's highly unlikely to say no.

Again, a captain and even the dreadnought wouldn't have a say in what a dreadnought does. It would be the chapter master.


Basically if a marine dies in service to deathwatch and they put him in a dread (quite plausible, i doubt there is much hardware that the deathwatch struggle to get hold of) then he'd still expect to be sent back to his chapter after his service was completed.
I disagree. Marine equipment is Marine equipment. Borrowing 1 marine from 1 chapter wouldn't be missed.. but a dreadnought being leant is another thing. If a marine dies in service he cannot be used in a dreadnought. Badly wounded.. yes.. but not dead. Even then... again.. you'd need a techmarine to put him in.


If the death watch (or an inquisitor for that matter) wanted a dreadnought it'd be pulling some teeth. Again, the technology needs so much care that they'd need a techmarine to look after the dreadnought.... no chapter would likely be able to spare a techmarine longer than they could spare a captain and especially they wouldn't want to risk losing a dreadnought.

Saying a dreadnought would be loaned to the deathwatch is like saying the space wolves would lend a dreadnought to the wolf blade.

With that said...
I don't like the idea of DW getting a dreadnought being easy as pie. In fact... it might be possible... but extremely difficult.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2008, 20:32
Asking a captain to join is one thing, but no company owns its own dreadnoughts thus captain would have no say to order a dreadnought to do anything.
It's never really been set out how the Deathwatch "recruitment" process works. It seems far more likely that a Dreadnought can be spared (which are not exactly part of the Company organisation) than a Captain (who is surely needed commanding his Company, right?).


Well.. no. Dreadnoughts are not Rhinos. They are RARE! They would have to have captured a dreadnought (from chaos? or renegade marines) which probably not what the Ordos Xenos would be doing. In addition, plugging in a marine into a dreadnought is not like plugging your TV into a wall socket. You'd need knowledge of both technology and biology.
Which is to say you are assuming that the Deathwatch Chapter does not have its own store of Dreadnoughts or the capability of aquiring new ones (factory new or "refurbished" ;))

Remember, the Deathwatch are the best equipped Space Marines in the galaxy, with rare ammunition, armour and suspensors. Something being "rare" is not an obstacle!


Marines are not at the beckon call to join an inquisitor at any time. And the point of the deathwatch is to be very few in numbers.
While Deathwatch are frequently spread thin and deployed as kill teams, any reason why that's necessarily the case?

Besides, as noted, a Dreadnought would be a very useful addition to a Kill Team - far more maneuverable and more easily deployed than a battle tank would be. They can be dropped in pods and can fit inside Thunderhawks. If a Kill Team needed some serious muscle, the Dreadnought isn't such a bad idea.


You are plain wrong. Yes they return to their chapters... but the experience of 'shooting them in the soft spot' is already well known to marines (for known aliens). So its valuable, but 1 marine can do the same job.. a dreadnought wouldn't be as good at sharing learned knowledge because their minds are already clouded.
Which is entirely conjecture on your part. Nothing "plain wrong" here.


Again, the point is that a chapter wouldn't want to just 'give up' valueable resources such as dreadnought tactical armour (Termies) or dreadnoughts.
This I agree (and I've already said) is a very valid reason. It doesn't preclude the Deathwatch having their own Dreads, though.


As someone said... they are likely to die. Why would they turn over a valuable resource as a dreadnought to a doomed mission.
It's hardly a death sentence! Deathwatch are known to survive to return to their Chapters you know!


Again, a captain and even the dreadnought wouldn't have a say in what a dreadnought does. It would be the chapter master.
... Right... so the Chapter would have to release the Dreadnought. Maybe the Dread petitions the Master? Who knows?


I disagree. Marine equipment is Marine equipment. Borrowing 1 marine from 1 chapter wouldn't be missed.. but a dreadnought being leant is another thing. If a marine dies in service he cannot be used in a dreadnought. Badly wounded.. yes.. but not dead. Even then... again.. you'd need a techmarine to put him in.
Who says the Deathwatch don't have Techmarines and Apothecaries (all evidence suggests they do). Additionally, the Ordo Xenos will have far more resources to call upon than any Chapter, and could well have hordes of Adeptus Mechanicus experts to do the same job.


If the death watch (or an inquisitor for that matter) wanted a dreadnought it'd be pulling some teeth. Again, the technology needs so much care that they'd need a techmarine to look after the dreadnought.... no chapter would likely be able to spare a techmarine longer than they could spare a captain and especially they wouldn't want to risk losing a dreadnought.
For starters, it need not be a techmarine. Secondarily, techmarines could be on loan from the Adeptus Mechanicus too. There are also Chapters like the Iron Hands or Crimson Fists that have disproportionate numbers of specialists and could probably spare a few.


Saying a dreadnought would be loaned to the deathwatch is like saying the space wolves would lend a dreadnought to the wolf blade.
Na, the wolfblades are meant to be at least remotely subtle, the Deathwatch need not be. Plus the Ordo Xenos has more clout and may have its own resources, unlike the Navigator Houses.

The bottom line is that as non-Codex as it may be, the Deathwatch is a Chapter, with the massive resources of the Ordo Xenos to boot. They may well have far more hardware than has so far been presented in the canon thus far.


With that said...
I don't like the idea of DW getting a dreadnought being easy as pie. In fact... it might be possible... but extremely difficult.
Right. The most important thing is that we're talking about someone who wants to have DW dread models, so the question is is it possible? Possible? Sure. So go make some tasty models!

I personally don't think that Dreads are particularly representative of the Deathwatch (and I've given this some thought as I've written a DW list for Epic). That said, there have been some good arguments as to why they might have Dreads, so I have somewhat changed my mind on this matter.

Malevon
23-08-2008, 05:46
Let's get a couple things straight...

1. An Inquisitor is not in charge of the Deathwatch. The Deathwatch may often work with or under command of an Inquisitor, but just like the Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle, they are headed by an individual roughly equivalent to a Chapter Master. Whether or not this position is permanent is not clear, but it's not really relevant. We have an example of a Marine leader not respecting an Inquisitor, which I will accept. (Although Space Wolves should hardly be treated as the norm; they are one of the least cooperative Chapters.) Most Marine leaders, however, would surely respect whoever is currently in charge of the Deathwatch. He's like them, an Astartes, a God among men, only way more powerful and experienced. I have a feeling when he asks for something, he gets it. When Chapter X gets a request from the Deathwatch for X personnel, possibly including a Dreadnought or other valuable resources, I think they assume it's not frivolous.

2. Any Imperial Citizen, from PDF to the High Lords of Terra to a Chapter Master, are at the beck and call of the Inquisition. Not that the later examples are frequent occurrences. An Inquisitor can, however, requisition whatever resources he or she requires, up to and including Space Marines. Again, I very much doubt that Marine commanders would be unhappy, as I don't think many Inquisitors abuse this power. If the Marines found out they were called away for a mission that was not worthy of their attention, the Inquisitor would be punished. An Inquisitor commandeering fighting men of the Imperium from any level knows the enormous weight on their shoulders to get something done. I cannot imagine an Inquisitor uncovering a threat serious enough to warrant aid from humanity's finest warriors and being turned down. It is the duty of Space Marines to protect humanity from threats, and it seems to me like they're happy to do so.


Secondarily, techmarines could be on loan from the Adeptus Mechanicus too.
The Adeptus Mechanicus does not have their own Techmarines as far as I know, besides ones that they're training. A skilled Tech Adept could take care of a Dreadnought however; they need not be an Astartes.

It's likely that the Deathwatch has permanent tech personnel, be they Marines or Enginseers. it is established that they have vehicles, so someone must keep them in working order.

the_reaper
23-08-2008, 17:23
I didnt think that the deathwatch were a chapter themselves, therefore they wouldnt have their own relics (terminator armour, dreadnaughts etc), or am i just being silly.

-reaper

Khornies & milk
23-08-2008, 21:25
I didnt think that the deathwatch were a chapter themselves, therefore they wouldnt have their own relics (terminator armour, dreadnaughts etc), or am i just being silly.

-reaper

The way I see it is that the Marines who are recruited out to do a stint of deathwatch duty take their personal armour with them, which is why they keep their original Chapter specific Heraldry to assuage the Armour's Spirit.

I have a Deathwatch army that I game with regularly within my gaming group and it's a sweet list to play.

To the OP...is your Friend making the list to play within his group, and are his group going to let him play it regardless of if it has a Dread or not...if yes, then screw the Fluff as there's so little official anyway.
If it's just to model then who cares...just make one.

Obviously pick-up games down at the local GW or Indie are out, but I think anyone who makes a Deathwatch list knows this. Also, people that poo-poo creative ideas because they're outside the box and/or aren't officially sanctioned by the GW Gods really need to get a grip....FUN is the only true requirement with this hobby.

Wolf Scout Ewan
23-08-2008, 22:36
I got a scenario for ya...

Brother Lazarus of [insert chapter here] is seconded to the Deathwatch but in between communications Lazarus is mortally wounded. He is interred in a dreadnought in order for him to carry out his duty to chapter and deathwatch.

Remember that Dark Angel Motto... summat about dying before duty is done?

Templar Ben
24-08-2008, 00:03
Even if a marine is killed in combat many chapters would expect a body or at least what was left of the marine back at the end of their tour. The power armour, bolter and geneseed is still property of the chapter afterall.

Who is to say there would be anything to send back. For all the chapter knows the entire kill team was killed. Since they are all from different chapters it isn't like they are going to go back and then ring up the Ultramarines to ask about that one guy.

Geneseed is normally taken before they leave. It is one of the rare times it is taken at a time other than upon death.


The marines arnt brainwashed entering or exiting the deathwatch so tales of kidnapping marines and hording precious dreadnoughts which usually belong to the chapters would not go down to well when the next wave of recruits is politely requested. However rewarding chapters which give alot of marines to the deathwatch with dreadnoughts to take home after their marine has done their duty. This could carry favor and increase said chapters ties with the inquisition allowing them a better response rate when needing an entire chapter.

A marine gets sent back to a medical ship and the team gets reassigned. They would have no idea what happened to him. We are talking about an organization that thrives on secrecy like nothing else in the Imperium. I see them as more than happy to lie to you about what your name is let alone what happened to some random member that according to all official records is dead.


Even the inquisition need to grease the wheels occasionally.

I really don't see them doing that. You do what they say. If you don't then they see to it that all of your apothecaries die (like the Celestial Lions) or they declare you Excommunicate and let the others handle it.


I disagree. Marine equipment is Marine equipment. Borrowing 1 marine from 1 chapter wouldn't be missed.. but a dreadnought being leant is another thing. If a marine dies in service he cannot be used in a dreadnought. Badly wounded.. yes.. but not dead. Even then... again.. you'd need a techmarine to put him in.

If the death watch (or an inquisitor for that matter) wanted a dreadnought it'd be pulling some teeth. Again, the technology needs so much care that they'd need a techmarine to look after the dreadnought.... no chapter would likely be able to spare a techmarine longer than they could spare a captain and especially they wouldn't want to risk losing a dreadnought.

Saying a dreadnought would be loaned to the deathwatch is like saying the space wolves would lend a dreadnought to the wolf blade.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. They won't use a dead marine. They will just declare him dead and use him as they see fit. Form 132-BR42 will be properly filled and notorized with the seal attached so he is "dead".

I don't see there being an issue getting super rare equipment. Just look at how much they already have that other chapters don't.

MajorWesJanson
24-08-2008, 06:05
Here's a scenario. A Dreadnought or Venerable Dreadnought is the sole survivor of a Xenos attack on his chapter's forces. He requests of the Chapter Master to go on a penance or revenge crusade. Best way to do this is to join Death Watch for a while. Being interred in a dreadnought gives their requests a ton of weight, so Chapter Master (whom has only been around for a far shorter time than the Dreadnought) allows it. Dreadnought joins the Death Watch, and then returns after a while, or if killed, the chassis is returned to the chapter.

Dreadnoughts are not machines, they are fallen battle brothers, highly revered and respected by all in the chapter. They have a say in what they do.

Super Ninja
24-08-2008, 17:26
Actually.. Grey Knights have been deployed in great numbers. The first war for Armageddon (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/First_War_for_Armageddon) saw a huge rapid deployment of Grey Knights and wiped out the grey knights to about a dozen and lost their chapter master.

And do you know why so many GK were deployed? To banish Angron and his twelve blodthirster bodyguard.

GK are deployed in such large numpers to counter masive daemonic invasions, whereas you do not need an army of Deathwatch xeno-hunter specialists to counter an alien invasion of a world, any conventional Imperial military force (marines or Guard) can do that. It's simply that Daemons and the Warp are more of a threat to humanity than aliens, and as such more of the imperium's elite anti-Daemon Specialists get deployed where conventional imperial armed forces would have a very hard time.

The GK need lots of firepower to handle an invasion of half-real hell spawned extra-dimensional super monsters, whereas a DW kill teams are not only covert stealth teams that are intended to root out alien coruption on human worlds, and they dont even form a formal capter. Besides, no real SM chapter would willingly give up a Dread. Marines consider Dreads as holy relics and links to their chapter's past. Handing over Marines to the Inquisition is costly enough for them.

imperial_scholar
24-08-2008, 18:20
And do you know why so many GK were deployed? To banish Angron and his twelve blodthirster bodyguard.

Ummm.... yea... I did.. I did after all provide a link to that very fact....

Malevon
24-08-2008, 19:42
Besides, no real SM chapter would willingly give up a Dread. Marines consider Dreads as holy relics and links to their chapter's past. Handing over Marines to the Inquisition is costly enough for them.

I don't think you understand. There are two important points here:

1. It's no optional. The Deathwatch (all of the Inquisition, in fact) requisitions the forces they need and the rest if the Imperium obliges.

2. It doesn't even need to be mandatory. This thread seems to be operating under the assumption that Marines will do whatever they can to get out of having to go on a mission. They are the glorious saviours of humanity. They're not slackers, and they're not stupid. They know when the Deathwatch or a powerful Inquisitor asks for their help that something important to the Imperium must hang in the balance. Yes, a Dreadnought is a holy relic. They would probably not entrust it to, say, the Savlar-Chem Dogs. But the Deathwatch is different; it is an elite organization made up of their own members. I don't think they have any doubt that it'll be taken care of, and if it is destroyed, it will not be for nothing.

Disciple of Caliban
24-08-2008, 20:04
^^ I'm going to agree.

Yes, marines are independant and they dont 'have' to listen to the inquisition, or follow their orders, so no, an inquisitor couldnt call up chapter master bob and saying 'i'm taking one of your dreads, deal with it' or he'd rapidly find himself dead. And as for the threat of declaring a chapter Excommunicate the inquisition has to be careful with that, if they go around excommunicating chapters all willy nilly it wont be long before marines get together and decide they've had enough of the inquisition, and once space marines stop listening to the inquisition it can declare everyone excommunicate and it wouldnt matter. Outside of another marine chapter the imperium simply doesnt have the resources to actively hunt marines, few admirals would be stupid enough to pick a fight with a chapter of marines.

However, marines are not only duty bound to fight to protect humanity, they enjoy fighting. There entire life is designed around fighting for the imperium, and they love their job. If a deathwatch captain or high ranking inquisitor asks for the support of a chapter they will usually give it, unless they suspect the authenticity of the mission, or their resources are needed elsewhere. As an example, i'll use the book Ragnars claw, a squad or marines, and a veteran sergeant are send to aid an inquisitor, plus a relic that is far rarer than a dreadnought.

Also, the idea that deathwatch couldnt aquire and maintain their own dreadnoughts is just ludicrous. They have the inquisition backing them up, and their marines, few mechanicus people would have the guts (or cogs) to tell a marine captain 'no'

Vaz84
24-08-2008, 22:45
I'm definately going with the Deathwatch Dreadnought being a non-fluffy idea. Deathwatch are not a chapter, they are an organization that hunts Xenos. In such a manner of, drop behind enemy lines, maybe die, maybe get mission done, maybe get extracted. I see Deathwatch going into kill a farseer, alone.

A dreadnought would require both tech marine and apothecary support staff, as well as any number of life support, stasis, and other monitoring equipment. Dreadnoughts are also effectively relics, more rare than ever terminator armor. If a death watch marine also likely dies behind enemy lines where recovery of his body will be slim.

It's also more likely a strike force would be brought into the fold if a DW Captain or Inquisitor contacted a space marine chapter. It wouldn't just be "sure go borrow venerable brother bill, his dreadnought power fist needs to taste some xenos scum".

I still view the deathwatch as a rapid insertion kill-team. Ten marines and their bolters going to surgically remove a xenos leader. I just cant see it in my head for them to deploy as a whole army. It's more likely they have small cruisers of a handful of marines here and there in the galaxy.

But as it is, its a large universe, and anything can happen. Just say Yes.

Malevon
25-08-2008, 00:00
Yes, marines are independant and they dont 'have' to listen to the inquisition, or follow their orders, so no, an inquisitor couldnt call up chapter master bob and saying 'i'm taking one of your dreads, deal with it' or he'd rapidly find himself dead. And as for the threat of declaring a chapter Excommunicate the inquisition has to be careful with that, if they go around excommunicating chapters all willy nilly it wont be long before marines get together and decide they've had enough of the inquisition, and once space marines stop listening to the inquisition it can declare everyone excommunicate and it wouldnt matter. Outside of another marine chapter the imperium simply doesnt have the resources to actively hunt marines, few admirals would be stupid enough to pick a fight with a chapter of marines.
Thanks for your support, but you're still touting a nasty bit of misinformation that keeps popping up in this thread. Marines do have to listen to the Inquisition. Inquisitors have to limits on the forces they can requisition. They can ask any task of any subject of the Emperor, besides the Custodes. This isn't a problem because they don't abuse their power. They wouldn't last long if they did.


I'm definately going with the Deathwatch Dreadnought being a non-fluffy idea. Deathwatch are not a chapter, they are an organization that hunts Xenos. In such a manner of, drop behind enemy lines, maybe die, maybe get mission done, maybe get extracted. I see Deathwatch going into kill a farseer, alone.

A dreadnought would require both tech marine and apothecary support staff, as well as any number of life support, stasis, and other monitoring equipment. Dreadnoughts are also effectively relics, more rare than ever terminator armor. If a death watch marine also likely dies behind enemy lines where recovery of his body will be slim.

It's also more likely a strike force would be brought into the fold if a DW Captain or Inquisitor contacted a space marine chapter. It wouldn't just be "sure go borrow venerable brother bill, his dreadnought power fist needs to taste some xenos scum".

I still view the deathwatch as a rapid insertion kill-team. Ten marines and their bolters going to surgically remove a xenos leader. I just cant see it in my head for them to deploy as a whole army. It's more likely they have small cruisers of a handful of marines here and there in the galaxy.

But as it is, its a large universe, and anything can happen. Just say Yes.
You're right, most of the time Ordo Xenos are deployed as Kill-teams, but so are all Grey Knights and Space Marines. Codex Daemonhunters says the Grey Knights possess only a handful of vehicles, yet they are seen frequently on the tabletop. The Warhammer battles we play out represent the most fantastic and climactic clashes in the galaxy. I'm sure Deathwatch Dreadnoughts are incredibly rare on the battlefield, but no more so than Asdrubael Vect or Abbadon taking to the field, which is obviously allowed on the tabletop.

talos935
25-08-2008, 00:28
Right then an Inquisitor can request anything they want. Just because the've requested it doesn't mean they will get it. If an Inquisitor like Eisenhorn [as close to excumincate he may be] or Coteaz would have sufficent enough reputation and 'authority' to attract the marines attention. Where as if Inquisitor Nephus requested 10 assorted marines for a kill team all of the chapters would tell him "**** off!" and I very much doubt he would have the rank, resources and allies to declare an entire chapter excomunicate! Or the simple fact that Chapter Master Berakus of The Fists of Yasaris has a disliking of Inquisitor Nephus, because the last time he or his mentor requested marines off him his 4th company got butchered for no reason.

Personally I would expect the Deathwatch to have a skeleton staff [roughly resembling a 'normal' chapters command staff] at all times, even if then exact member may vary. Then depending upon the times and needs the number of battle brother will vary. I would expect the deathwatch to have a similar organisation to the Grey Knights in being troop heavy and lacking in much heavy armour. Personally I could see them having dreadnoughts as a suport for normal troops. Where the dreadnought somes from is questionable and unknown. Is the dreadnought 'on loan' or the Deathwatch's? There are arguments either way.
For a Deathwatch only dreadnought it may be a battle brother who has fallen in battle for the Deathwatch. The deathwatch then request that they can keep an otherwise crippled marine. Not knowing said chapter's cirumstances they might have a full quoter of dreadnoughts and may be happy to let them keep his body [,but request all his wargear back]. They might instead agree that they could keep him for a century [or other amount of time] and then he's returned to the chapter. If not a Chapter Master may have a debt with an Inquisitor and the Inquisitor want to use a Dreadnought for his mission[s]/crusade. The Chapter Master then honours his debt and releases the dreadnought.

Malevon
25-08-2008, 00:36
Chapters don't resent Inquisitors for getting their Marines pointlessly slaughtered because this doesn't happen. Show me an example of this. If it ever has it is the exception to the norm; Inquisitors and Marines are both very much humanity's finest. If Marines die under an Inquisitor's command, I very much doubt it would be in vain.

talos935
25-08-2008, 00:49
Chapters don't resent Inquisitors for getting their Marines pointlessly slaughtered because this doesn't happen. Show me an example of this. If it ever has it is the exception to the norm; Inquisitors and Marines are both very much humanity's finest. If Marines die under an Inquisitor's command, I very much doubt it would be in vain.
Maybies getting a company butchered is a bit extreame, but marines do hold grudes and the Inquisition and marines don't always go together hand in hand.

Malevon
25-08-2008, 02:21
I'm sure there are Marine Chapters that aren't cooperative or an experience with the Inquisition left a foul taste in their mouth, but this is the exception.

Lord Inquisitor
25-08-2008, 16:39
Chapters don't resent Inquisitors for getting their Marines pointlessly slaughtered because this doesn't happen. Show me an example of this.
The Celestial Lions. ;)

Joe Kutz
25-08-2008, 17:38
Deathwatch Xenos kill-teams are drawn from Space Marine Chapters. Those Chapters which owe service to the Ordo Xenos provide the manpower. Each is a hand picked champion of his Chapter, temporarily seconded to the Deathwatch...When these squads need transport it is provided from the Chapter's armoury, so Rhinos, Razorbacks and Land Raiders are all available to the Deathwatch.

While it doesn't give a clear answer to the question of whether or not a Chapter would allow a Dreadnought to be sent to the Ordo Xenos for use - it does show that you are not dealing with second string marines and that they are willing to offer vehicles and other hard to replace items.

The fluff which mentions the Dreadnought being revered is kind of moot. In the 40K world, you will have tech-priests worshiping microwave ovens - i.e. they worship pretty much everything. They mention that Space Marine Chapters will go to great lengths to recover a destroyed Rhino in order to lay the machine spirit to rest. It wouldn't be a stretch at all for a SM Dreadnought to be honored with the ability to serve in the Deathwatch in order to protect Mankind from the Xenos threat.

Push comes to shove though, and:


The emergency powers to induct fighting forces are not restricted to the Imperial Guard, they also extend to the Adeptus Astartes. Space Marine Chapters have long associations with the Inquisition, and are honour bound to respond to a request for aid by ancient oaths of service...When called the Space Marines have the full resources of their Chapter armoury to call upon.

So, even if you were to decide that a Space Marine Chapter wouldn't let a Dreadnought be sent on a Deathwatch tour of duty - the Inquisitor could requisition the Dreadnought through more forceful ways. The Space Marines would be honor bound to comply - even if it was a relatively unknown Inquisitor (which, to be perfectly honest - everyone will be...otherwise, they can't effectively do their job).


I would expect the deathwatch to have a similar organisation to the Grey Knights in being troop heavy and lacking in much heavy armour.

Since so very little has been written on the subject of the Grey Knights (compared to...pretty much any other Imperial Force) it can be hard to draw any such conclusions. The information provided in IA II, describes them as a nearly entirely mechanized force. Greater Daemon is found, crap load of Thunderhawk transporters with Land Raiders in tow get dropped in. They handle the light work. Once an area is cleared, Terminators teleport in to finish the clean up. Everyone loads up into the Thunderhawks and goes home.


I still view the deathwatch as a rapid insertion kill-team. Ten marines and their bolters going to surgically remove a xenos leader. I just cant see it in my head for them to deploy as a whole army. It's more likely they have small cruisers of a handful of marines here and there in the galaxy.

Deathwatch is the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos - just as the Grey Knights are to Daemonhunters and Sisters of Battle are to Witch Hunters. The original White Dwarf article that introduced them in some detail was for Deathwatch Kill Teams - but that isn't the whole picture. When a significant alien threat is found, they field a full army to eliminate the threat. This will include a large number of Deathwatch squads (in the various Space Marine flavors) as well as the core of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and any inducted forces that they choose to make use of.

Perhaps one day, GW will get around to producing an army list for Ordo Xenos - but until then, it is just kind of hit and miss with the fluff in order to make a working army list.

talos935
25-08-2008, 21:13
Since so very little has been written on the subject of the Grey Knights (compared to...pretty much any other Imperial Force) it can be hard to draw any such conclusions. The information provided in IA II, describes them as a nearly entirely mechanized force. Greater Daemon is found, crap load of Thunderhawk transporters with Land Raiders in tow get dropped in. They handle the light work. Once an area is cleared, Terminators teleport in to finish the clean up. Everyone loads up into the Thunderhawks and goes home.
Well I stand corrected on the GK side of things, but I was thinking the Deathwatch wouldn't have/use many predators, vindicators or whirlwinds, mainly dud to size and getting them onto a battle field. I would expect their numbers of Land Raiders to be limited and for them to have a few rhinos.
Most of the fluff I've seen for Deathwatch seems to have them teleport in opposed to have a mass sprawling battle.

Clockwork-Knight
25-08-2008, 22:48
the Inquisitor could requisition the Dreadnought through more forceful ways.I think that's rather not possible, seeing as although the Astartes are honour-bound, they don't have to like the Inquisitors, and some do even kill them to ensure chapter secrets (like the Black Templars, the Dark Angels, and some other few). Threatening Space Marines has the problem that they do push back very hard, and the only way to threaten them reasonably is to come with a really big army of Storm Troopers, Sororitas Warriors and other Space Marines, which only leads to another escalation.
It really depends on the Inquisitor, however, and how good he or she is at persuasion.

VanHel
25-08-2008, 23:50
How about this for justification: Brother Swanson of the Fire Fists was doing a tour of duty with the Deathwatch when his chapter was destroyed by (insert cause). Having no chapter to return to Swanson became a permanent member of the Deathwatch, and became a captain and killed many xenos till one day he is fatally wounded by (insert cause) and was interred in a Dreadnought.

How's that for justification?

imperial_scholar
26-08-2008, 00:04
How's that for justification?

Honestly, pretty weak...

I think this discussion should be dropped as we're going in circles. This is what I'm drawing as a conclusion.

It shouldn't be allowed because there aren't rules in place as it is. However, there is nothing stopping said friend from having a death watch themed army using the space marine rules. I'd be inclined to say that using a few actual death watch units with the death watch rules as long as he obeys the rules that are out already.

Existing rules and fluff currently doesn't support dreadnoughts in the death watch. However it doesn't mean its impossible; just unlikely given all the hurdles the death watch would have to leap over to make it possible.

I also think the OP has come to their own conclusion by now anyways.

Joe Kutz
26-08-2008, 01:25
I think that's rather not possible, seeing as although the Astartes are honour-bound, they don't have to like the Inquisitors, and some do even kill them to ensure chapter secrets (like the Black Templars, the Dark Angels, and some other few). Threatening Space Marines has the problem that they do push back very hard, and the only way to threaten them reasonably is to come with a really big army of Storm Troopers, Sororitas Warriors and other Space Marines, which only leads to another escalation.
It really depends on the Inquisitor, however, and how good he or she is at persuasion.

Reread what I wrote again. The Kill-Team tasking is something which exists...permanently. Members of the Chapters cycle through to serve for varying time periods or until the current emergency has been quelled (depending on why they were called). Recruits are in place and ready to go...hand picked champions.

Push comes to shove though, and the Inquisitor can say, "I need a Dreadnought." If that were to happen, the Chapter would have to comply. It exists that way in both the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters Codices. The specific reason that the Chapter complies is not really relevant (honor, fear, debt...), but the idea that any Chapter Master would rebel against even the lowest of Inquisitors operating in the open is ridiculous. Past fluff has shown this to not go over too well (several Chapters have been effectively purged by forces of the Inquisition - not including the way all out wars fare for the Space Marines).

Remember, these are not single Inquisitors who are investigating taint within the Chapter - it is an Inquisitor who is assembling an army to deal with a threat to mankind. If he says I need a dreadnought, you will likely see a half dozen Chapters load up their best dreadnought and send it his way in their fastest ships. Success would bring great honor to the Chapter. Death of the Dreadnought would provide a great martyr and even greater honors to the Chapter. Failure is not an option, and refusing the call of duty would bring great shame.

Clockwork-Knight
26-08-2008, 05:11
Inquisitors still can't force Space Marines to do something they don't want to. The Astartes don't count as subjects to the Imperium, but as allies, and they do whatever they want (as long as it's possible and nobody really opposes them). Imperial Armoury Vol. 4 (that one about Imperials experimenting on Tyranids and unleashing new Trygon broods) for example has the Red Scorpion company captain basically telling the Inquisitor to screw himself, and abandoning him on the Tyranid-infested planet.
Also, the Space Marines who do go to the Ordo Xenos also do get something in return, like special equipment, which is one of the incentive to get Marines to cooperate.
Astartes Chapter Masters don't like to be talked down, and they all know that Warp travel and astropathic communication are very very unreliable, making it easy to silence any lowly Inquisitor and to eradicate every traces. The same as Inquisitors have brought the end to an Astartes Chapter did the Space Marines just kill an Inquisitor out of convenience, or because they thought that their honour was insulted.
At best, an Inquisitor can appeal to the honour codex of the chivalrous Space Marines. At worst, he'll treat them like subordinates, and this will enrage the 8-10 feet tall psychopaths in power armour who were brainwashed since they were 10-13. And that's a bad idea, which did in fact cost the lives of many person.
Not even the Ultramarines, known for being the most civilised and friendliest chapter, like the Inquisition.

Malevon
26-08-2008, 06:36
There are certainly rules that can accommodate this; the friend in question has taken a Deathwatch Kill-team as an HQ of a Daemonhunters army that includes three squads of Stormtroopers in Rhinos. A Grey Knight Dreadnought can be taken or a Space Marine Dreadnought can be inducted, if I'm not mistaken.

I agree though, this is going in circles. Some people seem determined to argue all the ways and reasons a Space Marine Chapter might want to or go about shirking their duty to protect humanity, which is something not worth arguing about. It doesn't matter whether or not a Chapter could hold out against whatever an Inquisitor could muster, because they wouldn't. True, there are Chapters that are wary of the Inquisition, such as the Dark Angels, but that doesn't mean they're outright hostile. They still answer the call to serve. I don't need to hear about the exception. Let's say in a very generous estimate that there are ten Chapters that would outright refuse the call of the Deathwatch; I think it's safe to say that whoever is in charge of the Deathwatch could find someone in the other 99% of the Astartes that would pony up.

You may be right; Dreadnoughts are nigh-irreplaceable relics (but what isn't these days?), so a Chapter Master might very well feel uneasy about sending it off. That doesn't mean he's not going to send it though. And it's not like he's sending it off for a tour of duty with the Savlar Chem-Dogs; it's going to be serving with the elite of the elite. It could only be in better hands with the Grey Knights or the Custodes themselves.