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Malevon
22-08-2008, 08:33
I'm considering for a future army making a (very) Rogue Trader/pirate/mercenary force using Dark Eldar rules. Ideally, the forces would be a mix of races, including humans, Eldar, and possibly others. (Ogryns, Ratlings, Demiurg, Tau, Kroot, Vespid, Hrud, or others being remote possibilities, but unlikely.)

How realistic is this in fluff? I know in Dan Abnett's novels, humans find the company of Eldar unsettling, but are there other precedents set for human/Eldar (or other Xenos) relations, or examples of rogue, mercenary, or piratical forces operating outside the Imperium that include humans?

Joe Kutz
22-08-2008, 08:52
Tau use human auxilia with not that uncommon frequency (probably more so now following the third phase of expansion).

My Apoc army is a Daemonhunter/SM/IG/Eldar force. The Daemonhunters and Eldar go together quite well - since both understand the true nature of chaos and all that. The SM and IG are pressed into service by the Inquistor Lord and just have to grin and bear it. I have kept that theme going since before Apoc - just that gives me reason to pull out all the guns - and the Inquisitor includes a converted Eldar as one of his psychics in his retinue (covered under a cloak so as not to cause too much trouble...). The full back story is a bit more complicated...but that covers the why more or less.

Rogue traders don't much care one way or another whether they are alien or human. BFG includes rules for RT ships using xenos tech, so you can count on a few technical advisors to be on board as well. If they are in the mercenary business - they will likely pick up a few elite troops as well.

Kroot hire themselves out to the highest bidder.

TheBigBadWolf
22-08-2008, 13:48
I'm considering for a future army making a (very) Rogue Trader/pirate/mercenary force using Dark Eldar rules. Ideally, the forces would be a mix of races, including humans, Eldar, and possibly others. (Ogryns, Ratlings, Demiurg, Tau, Kroot, Vespid, Hrud, or others being remote possibilities, but unlikely.)

How realistic is this in fluff? I know in Dan Abnett's novels, humans find the company of Eldar unsettling, but are there other precedents set for human/Eldar (or other Xenos) relations, or examples of rogue, mercenary, or piratical forces operating outside the Imperium that include humans?

Im pretty sure you would find kroot fighting with humans and some eldar, but vespid, demiurg and hrud not so much, vespid are complety within the tau empire and need that com helmet thing to comunicate which is tau tech, and demiurg are miners, not very piratey, not to sure about the hrud actuallly.

Anyways, if you want to do a mix of forces thats pretty cool, are they going to be in the same band of pirates or a group of diferent in regards to colour schemes, and equipment

Rip
22-08-2008, 23:29
I think that you wouldn't have any problems in terms of fluff. As in real life, people of all races find enough common ground to co-exist and I imagine it would be no different in 40k. Even though in general you might find that Eldar would not usually live alongside Humans there will always be exceptions, especially in a tight-knit mercenary group.

Xisor
23-08-2008, 00:02
I think that you wouldn't have any problems in terms of fluff. As in real life, people of all races find enough common ground to co-exist and I imagine it would be no different in 40k. Even though in general you might find that Eldar would not usually live alongside Humans there will always be exceptions, especially in a tight-knit mercenary group.

The thing is, the point discussed here are really species not races. So whilst humans, dogs, horses and pigeons managed to fight well against each other, it's typically been species vs species. Look at the human vs cow warfare. We'rve utterly enslaved the buggers. Similarly in human vs pig conflicts. And human vs monkey.

Very rarely, really, do we see humans and squids uniting to form a common front against the eagles. And I think this is the aspect that 40k doesn't quite emphasise enough. That is: These really are alien things.

But then, on the otherhand, we can't just apply sensible logic to things, else it wouldn't be quite as adventurous and 'do what you lilke' as we enjoy!

So stop being a miser, Xisor!

I think the safest bets are alien-alien alliances. Humans mixing with them, sure. Humans hiring one or two...sure. It's incredibly illegal, but people do illegal stuff all the time.

Tau-Kroot-Demiurg-Nicassar-Human fleets in Battlefleet Gothic are, personally, amongst the most enjoyable to play. In any sort of informal gaming environment, an trading outpost's defence force may well bring in soldiers fighting in the same place for the same reasons from a huge variety of 'species'. And yet that needn't mean it's an actual army, but it give's you a fine reason to play with such a force.

Personally, I still feel the best army to use to represent this sort of thing is the Imperial Guard. Looking at it you really do have a fine selection for count-as units. The doctrines system makes it quite a robust yet varied army, and the allies available via the DH and WH lists make it quite varied.

So you can be bringing in a squad of space marine (non-chaos) renegades using simple Grey Knights special rules (say they're chapter veterans and use basic ones), some sort of Demiurg automata? GK Terminators! Mutants and/or big-fighty-things: Ogryns. Tau Fire Warriors: Ratlings!

The army list needn't incorporate the actual rules appropriately, just permitting a nice and varied count-as force is fine enough, in my opinion. The basic guardsman and stormtrooper profiles (with doctrines) really ought to be sufficient to 'loosely' represent any sort of alien you want. Kroot Mercenaries? IG Veterans (Elites). Etc etc...

I do think the 'far out' outpost makes perfect sense. A dingy and rundown area of space out there in the space between the Imperium forging together a living out of ferrying crappy goods between worlds, selling black market xenos imports, xenobeasts for food (and xenoflora), a bit of piracy here and there.

Personally, it's a vivd and highly admirable route to take! It's hardly for background-purists, but it's certainly plausible.

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 03:16
Very rarely, really, do we see humans and squids uniting to form a common front against the eagles. And I think this is the aspect that 40k doesn't quite emphasise enough. That is: These really are alien things.
Humans and dogs unite to fight birds, foxes, etc.
Humans and horses unite to battle other humans and horses.
Humans enslave worms to use them as bait against the fishes.

Besides, I doubt comparing human-animal relations to human alien ones is that correct. For one, they're both sentient. If we go back enough in history, I think european propaganda would have all the other human races reduced barely as plants. And it wasn't limited to non-caucasians either. By the degree of the Pope himself in the 15th or 16th century, my people are to be considered nothing than wild animals.

Why is it that aliens can ally with aliens, but not with humans. Are pink aliens not aliens to purple aliens? Humans are one more aliens in the mix. If you mean Imperial citizen then we can start pondering about the thing more. But there are those that were taken in by the Tau empire and in the old Tau codex there's a human that comes to greet the Imperial envoy.

So if we take the Imperium out of a person, it's all good. Weren't there plenty of humans and aliens living together (some by force) before the Great Crusade? And then the Emperor came and liberated us from our hideour alien overlords.


But if you want an equal opportunity employer: Go Chaos.

The gods don't care who serves them and if you've pissed on the holy doctrine of the Imperium and forsaken humanity, might as well get in bed with the alien, the mutant and the heretic, and have a freaky foursome.

My Chaos force has aliens and abhumans within it. There's Kroot, Vespid, Tau, Squats/Demiurg, etc. Some might be Chaos worshipers, others merely outcasts or refugees that have joined the ranks over the millenia. No Eldar though. Eldar are shot on sight. Shot, violated and their souls gathered into their own infinity circuit where they are tortured until the end of time for the lords own pleasure.

For more information, consult the sig starting from Slayers of Sorrow.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2008, 05:11
Humans and dogs unite to fight birds, foxes, etc.
Humans and horses unite to battle other humans and horses.
Humans enslave worms to use them as bait against the fishes.Dogs and horses have been enslaved in the same way like the worms. Heck, if we're hungry, we don't hesitate to eat them (and they're far more tastier than worms).
Dogs and horses must serve men, or be beaten (and perhaps be eaten then). Horray for mankind's ultimate dominion over the lesser species on this world.

Let's just hope that no alien monsters come here and do the same thing to us as we did to birds, canines, bovines, pigs and fish. :p

Malevon
23-08-2008, 05:13
I know that an IG/Inquisition list is good for representing this sort of force, but I've already got an IG army, an IG/Witch Hunters army, and Daemonhunters, so I'm about ready to try something different.

Thanks for the help.

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 05:21
Horses can refuce to work, dogs can bite the hand that feeds them. If a human doesn't impose dominion over the animal, it'll do it to you. It's not so much about enslaving the animal as living with the animal's rules. You don't reason with an animal like you reason with a human. Animals have the alpha status on the leader that they follow. Human has to assume the status for him/herself in order to work with the animal. If he/she doesn't the animal doesn't consider the human to be worthy of giving orders to it.

So technically its not about man conquering nature, but becoming its bitch by playing with its rules. You can't impose your culture on the animal. It plays by its rules, but accepts you as its master. You can burn down a forest, plow a field and grow crops, but you do it by nature's rules. You can't grow crops when its not their time.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2008, 05:35
Dogs that bite get beaten, or euthanised. Horses who refuse to work get turned into glue. And yes, you can make crops grow faster than normal ones would do, simply by tempering with genetics. Which mankind is actually doing right now. Respect of mankind towards nature is romantic, but far from the reality. :)

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 05:47
Dog can kill you, horse can run away, crops can grow out of control once Man has played God long enough.

Malevon
23-08-2008, 05:48
Vaguely irrelevant to the OP, but you know...

Malevon
23-08-2008, 08:19
Rather than start a new thread, I'm going to ask a new related question: are there any images or physical descriptions of Nicassar out there?

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 09:23
I've heard two versions. One has them as floating jelly fishes, the other as polar bears. Pick your choice.

Malevon
23-08-2008, 09:40
Purple space Dryads it is.

Simon Sez
23-08-2008, 10:38
Dogs that bite get beaten, or euthanised. Horses who refuse to work get turned into glue. And yes, you can make crops grow faster than normal ones would do, simply by tempering with genetics. Which mankind is actually doing right now. Respect of mankind towards nature is romantic, but far from the reality. :)One word: Cats.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2008, 13:50
As Malevon said, it's off-topic, but cats serve child-replacing purposes, and are just that, pets (and yes, they really do eat cats in China and some other countries, and long ago, nobody had a problem to turn a cat into a nice pair of gloves). Ain't no animal that doesn't serve a purpose and can be turned into something else if it fails its duties that mankind imposed on it.

In regards to the topic, you could do an army that consists of many of the non-chaos-non-orkish-non-necronic factions. The background would be that a warp-storm made it impossible for the armies there to leave the planet (read: Imperial Guard, Eldar, Tau, perhaps even Space Marines), the webway access point being destroyed, and no ship avaiable, so the remnants of the armies trapped down there will fight together against a common enemy, like Daemons, or Necrons, or whatever suits your story. What could begin as an alliance of necessity may turn into mutual respect, and then true comradeship, especially after some hundred years being trapped down there. Some distrusts still remain, but at least they're not going to put a knive down your throat while you're sleeping, if nothing but for a sense of honour towards the members of any other race.

After all, even the Space Marines (notably the Ultramarines, perhaps it's only them) show mercy towards temporary allies.

Hrw-Amen
23-08-2008, 15:07
How about a chaos force headed up by 40K era mercenary Khornite cows heading for Terra bent on consumption of every human in the Imperium!

But seriously, I cannot see a problem as long as there is a back story to it. True that humans tend to enslave animals, (Apart from cats who do the opposite!) to use them, but then as has been pointed out that is probably because the animals in question do not have the cognative ability to understand exactly what is going on. Whereas an Eldar or whatever alien species would do may therefore have more of a say in what kind of alliance is entered into.

TheRoadWarrior
23-08-2008, 15:16
cool, i was thinking about doing the same thing with a lost and the dammend.