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View Full Version : A little experiment: Mk9 Power Armour (how would you do it?)



malika
22-08-2008, 21:25
A little thing that has been popping in my mind for a while. Now I don't know if this should be in the artwork section or is just fine here in the background since it's a little bit of both.

Throughout the history of Space Marine Power Armour we've seen improvements upon each Mk of armour that came out. Mk1 power armour for example wasn't even fully enclosed which was quickly improved by the Mk2, so each time problems in the existing Power Armour were found they were improved by a new Mk.

Mk8 is the final version of the Power Armour, but one might wonder if it's perfect. There have been problems with the movement of the head and compatibility with parts from other Mks. So I thought it would be cool to see what we, as fans of the Space Marines, could come up with as an improvement on the existing power armour. How can power armour be perfected? Meaning that it has to be more efficient than the previous Mks but still relatively easy to produce so that all Space Marines could wear it, not just Chapter Masters or something like that! The armour has to offer the Marine protection, but also manoeuvrability and at the same time be power/energy efficient.

So, lets see what you have to say and from there see where this will lead us! :)

MistaGav
22-08-2008, 22:53
I think my two ideas for improving the armour are 1. The neck collar thing doesn't really look right or look very functional. It doesn't look like it offers the user a lot of flexibility in the head so perhaps change the helmet style to be smaller or change the neck collar into armour around the neck.

My other idea was to try and make the armour a lot more lighter, smaller but offer the same amount of protection. That could make it easier to mass produce but that's just my shot at it.

MrBigMr
22-08-2008, 23:15
I've heard some rumours that the Emperor planned to replace all power armours with terminator ones. So Mk. 9 could be a hybrid to this effect. Maybe heavier structure with heavier servos and a terminator style torso with an internal power source. Nor a box with an opening for a head, but large back section with a higher neck. Mk. 8 style collar.

That's how I'd look at it. 2+ save naturally for it.

Eetion
22-08-2008, 23:55
The collar was probably designed so that the nexk and the previously loose weak spots there can no longer be trageted.
Id suggest a more sweeping/angled design across the chest plate and legs/greaves, so that incoming fire is more loikely defelected.

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 00:15
What about some sort of armoured ball joints, instead of the current ones that look like rubber?

Gatsby
23-08-2008, 00:38
I see two possible solutions:

1:weld their helmets to their suits, i see far to many marines without helmets fighting.

2:Give in to the Necrons and ask to be turned into Wraiths...

Koryphaus
23-08-2008, 00:46
Indeed MrBigMr, the plan was to replace all suits of Power Armour with Tactical Dreadnought suits. The maneuverability problems encountered by those wearing Terminator Armour was deemed insignificant compared to its ultimate protective power.

Rabid Bunny 666
23-08-2008, 01:02
I'd change the kneepads to be angular and curve out of the leg a bit, would offer some side protection to the lower leg, perhaps more advanced recoil dampeners on the arms/legs/torso so marines could fire more accurately on the move, maybe even with heavy weapons. Perhaps some increased auto injectors to see the marines stay in the fight for longer.

Remove the top vent on the helmet, it looks stupid in my opinion. The gorget would be a MK 8 one, because so many of the bad guys seem to favour decapitation :D.

malika
23-08-2008, 01:03
I think my two ideas for improving the armour are 1. The neck collar thing doesn't really look right or look very functional. It doesn't look like it offers the user a lot of flexibility in the head so perhaps change the helmet style to be smaller or change the neck collar into armour around the neck.
Perhaps the helmet could be more similar to the ancient Greek/Spartan helmets which seem to have a design that is more "moved down".


1:weld their helmets to their suits, i see far to many marines without helmets fighting.
I assume they all fight with their helmets on, the bare face thing is just a bit of artistic freedom to make the Marines look more individualistic.


Indeed MrBigMr, the plan was to replace all suits of Power Armour with Tactical Dreadnought suits. The maneuverability problems encountered by those wearing Terminator Armour was deemed insignificant compared to its ultimate protective power.
Is this for real? Any sources?

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 01:20
Didn't Mk. 2 or 3 armour have fixed helmets, which ended up being a problem when they couldn't move their heads. Being without helmet is for artistic reasons. Like how my apothecare doesn't spend his whole day kneeling over the same old dead Marine or my Guardsman isn't searching his belt for a fresh magazine for the rest of his life. Besides, military helmets can be very restrictive? Quite, having worn one. When you want absolute clarity on what's going on, you do well eithout one. Not to forget that a helmet won't always save your life and getting shot in the head is not that likely. Most military helmets are there to protect from hits and shrapnel. Aren't those special forces, delta force helmets just militarized skating helmets?

I remember it being said that in some SW novel(s) a SW has taken of its helmet so sense its surroundings before putting it back on.


The Mk. 8 high collar is indeed to protect the neck, as it was one of the last pieces that were vulnerable to enemy fire. Heavy armoured vests today have a high collar piece.

MajorWesJanson
23-08-2008, 05:38
I just want to see more proper Mk VIII suits produced. We have the highcollar one from the Tac upgrade sprue, but it uses a lower section from a Mk VII, and lacks both the larger gauntlets and the new style helmet.

For Mk IX, I'd say integrate the backpack with the armor, semi-terminator like, maybe add a wrist mount bolter, (Mk VIII fists are nearly powerfist size, theres room for one) and add the shoulder-guards on top of the pads that the Grey Knights and half the Masters of the Chapter have.

GodofWarTx
23-08-2008, 06:22
Didn't Mk. 2 or 3 armour have fixed helmets, which ended up being a problem when they couldn't move their heads. Being without helmet is for artistic reasons. Like how my apothecare doesn't spend his whole day kneeling over the same old dead Marine or my Guardsman isn't searching his belt for a fresh magazine for the rest of his life. Besides, military helmets can be very restrictive? Quite, having worn one. When you want absolute clarity on what's going on, you do well eithout one. Not to forget that a helmet won't always save your life and getting shot in the head is not that likely. Most military helmets are there to protect from hits and shrapnel. Aren't those special forces, delta force helmets just militarized skating helmets?

I remember it being said that in some SW novel(s) a SW has taken of its helmet so sense its surroundings before putting it back on.


The Mk. 8 high collar is indeed to protect the neck, as it was one of the last pieces that were vulnerable to enemy fire. Heavy armoured vests today have a high collar piece.


Yep, because low collars with armor in the back and the front can just become bullet traps and shrapnel traps that can get lodged in. I think even the IA on the new armor mentions this tidbit.

In regards to "sensing your surroundings" the marine helmets have auto-senses, which help the marine "see" "feel" "taste" "smell" his senses as if the armor were his own skin. I would imagine it would also help the "tunnel vision" effect of having your head sunk so far back into a large helmet.

As far as the space wolves go, well, the are a bit brutish, and i would imagine their sense of smell is *superior* to anything the autosenses can deliver. :)

Brother Siccarius
23-08-2008, 07:17
First off, add the small shields to protect the armpits that you see on the grey knight's armor (and other terminator armor examples). Keep the raised collar on the power armor to protect the vulnerable neck joint, and which conveniently doesn't prevent side to side movement of the head.

Add in extra sensors to the armor, built into the shoulder pads and leg vambraces, enough to build an efficient HUD similar to those that allows fighter pilots to "look through" a plane.

Honestly there's very little that you can do to improve upon the outward design of the power armor. The main predator of power armor is power weapons, psyker attacks, anti-tank weapons, ordinance, and things that just outright ignore your armor no matter how much of it there is. Perhaps a refractor field of some kind, built in, just to give them a little protection against such attacks?

Poseidal
23-08-2008, 07:30
Honestly there's very little that you can do to improve upon the outward design of the power armor. The main predator of power armor is power weapons, psyker attacks, anti-tank weapons, ordinance, and things that just outright ignore your armor no matter how much of it there is. Perhaps a refractor field of some kind, built in, just to give them a little protection against such attacks?
Those are only the rules way of portraying power weapons. If you look to 2nd edition and necromunda (both more detailed systems for smaller games) power weapons strike at a higher strength with a good save modifier rather than just ignoring armour.

Personally, I think they had it right with MkVI armour. Both arms pinned down by a Chaos Space Marine? No problem, just peck him in the eyes.

I might actually do some drawings for alternative helmet designs actually. I'm not a big fan of the 'frowning' mainstream space marine so this would be the first thing to go for me...

swagger
23-08-2008, 16:24
Those are only the rules way of portraying power weapons. If you look to 2nd edition and necromunda (both more detailed systems for smaller games) power weapons strike at a higher strength with a good save modifier rather than just ignoring armour.

Personally, I think they had it right with MkVI armour. Both arms pinned down by a Chaos Space Marine? No problem, just peck him in the eyes.

I might actually do some drawings for alternative helmet designs actually. I'm not a big fan of the 'frowning' mainstream space marine so this would be the first thing to go for me...

Lol peck indeed. Maybe we should devise an ultra-lethal, ultra sharp mouthpiece, or sonic blasters ala striking scorpions...that would be useful.

PondaNagura
23-08-2008, 16:37
either a move towards updating terminator armor to be more tactical, or creating more TD-like armor. i agree with the inclusion of the gorget (the high caller). the way i've been drawing my marines for awhile now have been with the powerpack more integrated into the back armor of the marines, and with a rim that surrounds the helm, to protect the power relays between armor and powerpack, sensors of the helm, and would reduce whiplash moments...think gorget and the aegis hodd that marine librarians have.

improving materials would be nice as well as adamantium has its weight issues, and caramite i'm sure has its own limitations in defense. it would be interesting to see some kind of hinged plate in the back of the knee so that as a marine stands that's covered, but if he needs to kneel it would retract along the calf.

rear mounted proximity sensors so you know whose behind you. move the intake of the breather away from the front and either to the side, or around the top and have it feed down.

i'll post images later.

The_Warsmith
23-08-2008, 16:38
emperor's children have sonic blasters/warp scream devices built into their helmets, it would be heretical for any loyalists to have them too :p

the_reaper
23-08-2008, 16:43
If Top Gear has taught us anything, its that carbon fibre is best, so that would work wouldn't it? Ofcourse, it would be futuristic and have a different name and be stronger.

Maybe each helmet should have an eyepiece incorparated? For even more improved sight.



Those are only the rules way of portraying power weapons. If you look to 2nd edition and necromunda (both more detailed systems for smaller games) power weapons strike at a higher strength with a good save modifier rather than just ignoring armour.

Personally, I think they had it right with MkVI armour. Both arms pinned down by a Chaos Space Marine? No problem, just peck him in the eyes.

I might actually do some drawings for alternative helmet designs actually. I'm not a big fan of the 'frowning' mainstream space marine so this would be the first thing to go for me...

All in favour of a 'power-beak' say I

I

-reaper

PondaNagura
23-08-2008, 16:53
actually carbon fiber would be like wearing a fragmentation grenade. it's called catastrophic failure for a reason...
it wouldn't deform like most materials, it would shatter and splinter and the inward direction of the shot would drag CF splinters inwards to the body.

aka_mythos
23-08-2008, 17:16
I think a Mk9 power armor would further attempt to bridge the gap between power armor and terminator armor. I think it would end up looking alot like something in between the Mk1 and Mk3 exo-armor (terminator armor) models but with a smaller power pack: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Image:Terminator_mini_MK2.jpg. (this picture is Mk1 its mislabeled.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Image:TerminatorC.JPG

This would require:

A) The internalization of a larger power pack, making the armor a bit hunchbacked.
B) Addition of a low yield energy field generators and thicker shoulder and chest armor, for added protection.
C) Additional external servos in the legs of the armor, to deal with the extra weight.
D) Improved targeting reticles.

Leman Russ
23-08-2008, 17:26
I would immediately put a Bolter Shell through your skull for heresy.

-This message has been brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood Tech-Priest of Mars

malika
23-08-2008, 17:36
I see a lot of people talking about this "gap" between Terminator Armour and Power Armour. However, Terminators have a very different role on the battlefield than normal power armoured Marines. Space Marines are supposed to be a highly manoeuvrable and fast force. Including more troops which are big slow targets such as Terminators would in this case be unwise.

So the Mk9 armour would have to offer even more protection than the existing patters, however this does not mean that it needs to lose on speed and manoeuvrability. In that perspective MistaGav comes closest to the solution I guess.

We can assume that the wrist mounted weaponry as seen amongst the Grey Knights and certain Space Marine officers is superior technology. Perhaps this will be something that we'll encounter on the Mk9, the capability to mount certain weapons on the wrists enabling the Marine to use his hands for other tasks.

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 17:42
As far as I know, terminator armour's don't actually have any shield generators. At least I have never come across anything like that in the fluff. The 5+ Inv. is just to present the armour's natural 'ardness (imagine it as a "the armour save cannot drop below 5+"). At least in all the fluff power armoured troops are forced to avoid enemy fire to some degree, but terminator armour can take fire without worryign a bit. In Storm of Iron a terminator takes a plasma shot to the chest and while the outer layers melts, the suit is not breached and the wearer continued to fight.

Maybe stiking plenty of adamantium instead of ceramite on the Mk. 9 armour would be a good idea.

PondaNagura
23-08-2008, 17:48
you'd still need stronger motors and fiber-bundle musculature to support all of that. it would probably be easier to redesign the terminator to be more agile than make power armor to be like termies.

MrBigMr
23-08-2008, 18:00
Hey, I know, add booster jets to a terminator amour a la Battlesuit. Imagine a terminator armour with a CML, Storm Bolter and Power Fist bouncing around. Reminds me one of the last scenarios in Starship Troopers (the older strategy game). I had to clear a hive from plasma bugs. I just took the heaviest of my suits and bounced from bug to bug, firing missiles while in the air, cleaning the LZ and once on the ground just jumped at the next target. Just like in the book.

PondaNagura
23-08-2008, 18:39
actually i guess Mk9 would be closer to techmarines artificer armor/TDA...use a servo-harness to assist in toting heavy weapons around.

Brother Siccarius
23-08-2008, 19:06
As far as I know, terminator armour's don't actually have any shield generators. At least I have never come across anything like that in the fluff. The 5+ Inv. is just to present the armour's natural 'ardness (imagine it as a "the armour save cannot drop below 5+"). At least in all the fluff power armoured troops are forced to avoid enemy fire to some degree, but terminator armour can take fire without worryign a bit. In Storm of Iron a terminator takes a plasma shot to the chest and while the outer layers melts, the suit is not breached and the wearer continued to fight.

Maybe stiking plenty of adamantium instead of ceramite on the Mk. 9 armour would be a good idea.

Supposedly the shield of terminator armor comes from the crux terminatus on their shoulder, which, again "supposedly", incorporates a piece of the Emperor's armor. Which makes it important to distinguish the Crux Terminatus from Terminator Honors, as it is sometimes confused.

Adamantuim is good, but as a generally over used, fictionalized metal, I think they (GW) did well with instead introducing a newer material than going with the older comic book stand-by ("Oh, this metal's really hard, but we don't want it to break: let's call it Adamantium!). I haven't seen any fluff to say exactly what ceramite is, but I see Ceramite as closer to a composite armor of ceramic and metal alloys. Similar to the composite armor used on tanks and military vehicles. Better materials would probably put it on par with artificer armor.

Terminator armor is literally just an upscaled version of power armor. More accurately, it's like a suit of power armor wearing a suit of power armor. The original base of it is a MK1-3, with extra heavy armored plates added on, then with a second exoskeleton added on top of it to deal with the weight, with some more armor added on in places over that, and a heavier power plant that, because of the extra bulk can be entirely incorporated into the armor itself.

Templar Ben
23-08-2008, 21:35
Aren't those special forces, delta force helmets just militarized skating helmets?
It is really to prevent accidentally cracking your skull going through a hatch or doorway.

They still use something similar. Here is a photo. (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Battle_at_hideout_of_Oday_and_Qusay_Hussein/aap.jpg) Can you tell who is not like the others? ;)

They went from just an off the shelf ProTech to the MICH.


Hey, I know, add booster jets to a terminator amour a la Battlesuit. Imagine a terminator armour with a CML, Storm Bolter and Power Fist bouncing around. Reminds me one of the last scenarios in Starship Troopers (the older strategy game). I had to clear a hive from plasma bugs. I just took the heaviest of my suits and bounced from bug to bug, firing missiles while in the air, cleaning the LZ and once on the ground just jumped at the next target. Just like in the book.

Way to stay on the bounce trooper!

talos935
23-08-2008, 23:11
Faster, stronger, tougher, smaller [more compact], more durable, more power efficent , more manoverable. That's just the ideas off the top of my head.

So idealisticly it would be a suit of terminator armour with built in jet pack that weighs about 20Kg. It would be able to with stand getting dropped from orbit, then stood on by a titan and then finaly walks through a nucular blast and function perfectly normally with nothing more than a few scratches and a bit of melted paint. Then it sould be able to use the heavist of the marine weapons like current terminator armour, but have speed and manovourablity to match or exced that of a assault marine. Provide the marine with a view as good or even better than if he didn't have any armour on at all [Eg. humans have a natural 160 degree FoV with an effective one being about 60 degrees, so possibly bosting an effective FoV of 160+ degrees]. It should have the ability the run for a century at full power [maximum energy expenditure] from one 'charge'[Charge being the generic term for how a space marines suit is powered since it's a bit vauge how exactly it's powered].

Like I said that's an idealistic idea. In all likelyhood it would maybies be more compact than existing armour or it would be more resilient to incoming fire. Note that at the moment about the only chapter to have exclusivly MkVIII armour seems to be the Grey Knights, but I would expect some chapter's artificer MKVIII to be boarderline or possibly even to be classed as prototype MkIX. Some chapters may even be working on an improved 'lite' terminator armour.

On a side note:


Terminator armour is legendarily thick and heavily reinforced with armaplas and adamantium. Terminators are capible of surviving just about any hit, even ones from plasma or power weapons.
Terminator armour is hard as nails and doesn't incorperate any large energy fields [ie refractor fields] other than storm shields. The invunerbale save [i]reprosents the terminator armour being so hard! The 5+ inv save was added mid 3rd ed, because terminator were getting white washed by plasma weapons. Back in 2nd edition they had armour save modifiers and had to pass a 3+ armour save on one of two dice!

DapperAnarchist
23-08-2008, 23:34
The terminator armour does however contain a forcefield generator for if the helmet is removed. However, thats only put in if the helmet is going to be left off...

Brother Siccarius
23-08-2008, 23:55
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So idealisticly it would be a suit of terminator armour with built in jet pack that weighs about 20Kg. It would be able to with stand getting dropped from orbit, then stood on by a titan and then finaly walks through a nucular blast and function perfectly normally with nothing more than a few scratches and a bit of melted paint.

To be fair, Terminators aren't often dropped from orbit on their own, at least not with marines inside of them. I've heard it was a good testing point for the armor to drop it like that, but even then I doubt anyone inside would be alive, marine or not.
As to being stood on by a titan, the short story where that takes place certainly leaves the Terminator armor with much more than "a few scratches", and really showcased how tough the space wolf was, and not the armor itself. I haven't seen anything about the nuclear blast though.

aka_mythos
24-08-2008, 00:47
Back on topic less terminator armor discussion more Mk9 power armor.

The important thing to note is the fact that development of power has always gone in the direction of increasing the protection afforded the wearer. In a drive for that goal the ideal would be to one day produce power armor with a level of protection equivalent to what is the pinnacle of armor technology in the Imperium, terminator armor, while maintaining its level of mobility. The Mk7 added armor over certain components that previous armor left less protected, while increasing the redundancy of critical components. The Mk8 armor added extra armor over many of the joint sections that were previously less protected. The next step in the direction of making an improved power armor design would be to improved protection or improved mobility. Improved mobility would demand thinner amounts of a stronger armor that would maintain the current level of protection while reducing weight. While improved protection would be to increase the thickness of armor or use of a stronger material.

In the Inquisitor game GW produced some years ago, it was implied that the difference between the Mk's of power armor was represented by "ablative" armor over the different body sections, that these parts were modular and relatively easily replaced. A Mk9 armor would then obviously demand a higher amount of ablative armor, in much the same way previous armors received. Striving towards terminator armor some limited sections of of this ablative armor could be replaces with adamantine sections to improve the armor. In a similar way the Imperium has specialized materials that can increase the armors protection against melta, plasma, and flamers... but only to one of those at a time. Some sort of a additional protection in line with that might also be possible.

Additional improvements that are within a single Mk generational step would be the utilization of a more compact and efficient power pack supply and the incorporation of better sensors while maintaining the current functionality.

Alessander
24-08-2008, 00:48
actually i guess Mk9 would be closer to techmarines artificer armor/TDA...use a servo-harness to assist in toting heavy weapons around.

Have you seen the missile launcher marine model in the new Black Reach Set? It has a tiny servo-arm to assist with loading the missiles from the backpack into the launcher.

Terminator armor, according to Space Hulk fluff, was originally designed for use inside nuclear reactors.

Remember, the technology to create Terminator armor was lost long ago, which is why they are so venerated by the marine legions - they are indeed relics from the old ages.

The shield on terminator sergeants and GK terminator is for heraldry, I doubt it has any functional use.

Lord_Squinty
24-08-2008, 02:09
Have you seen the missile launcher marine model in the new Black Reach Set? It has a tiny servo-arm to assist with loading the missiles from the backpack into the launcher.


As does the Marine devastator set...

Brother Siccarius
24-08-2008, 02:43
Remember, the technology to create Terminator armor was lost long ago, which is why they are so venerated by the marine legions - they are indeed relics from the old ages.

The shield on terminator sergeants and GK terminator is for heraldry, I doubt it has any functional use.
Yet it does! The arm pits are a fairly good weak point in any armor, simply because it has to be flexible so that you can use your arms. Which is why there were designs used in medieval armor to protect it, including a small shield that was riveted over the armpit section to prevent attacks from getting in there, much like the small shields on Grey Knights.

Speaking of Grey Knights, they are the most obvious example that Terminator Armor design was not lost long ago, as they show a newer version of terminator armor that other chapters don't possess to our knowledge. Terminator armor was being designed, re-designed, and improved upon alongside power armor as the Crusade went on, with some evidence to show that it continued even a short while afterwards (Just pre-heresy the terminator armor was of a different make, at least aesthetically, than those used by current marines).

With current evidence it's more likely that, rather than being lost, it just became incredibly difficult to create after the heresy. I know it was probably written otherwise in older fluff, but current evidence shows differently to some extent.

I'm betting that newer power armor would be closer to the Grey Knight's Terminator armor, as it's design seems to overcome some of the inherent agility disadvantages of that armor. Even seems to be more of a hybrid armor between Terminator and power armor.

MrBigMr
24-08-2008, 09:27
While terminator armour and power armour are not really related, as in terminator armour isn't power armour with extra bits, I don't really see where else Marine armour development could head to. Especially with the Imperial mindset. Some agile, mesh armour with jets to bounce around isn't really something I could see the Imperium going for.

The GK terminator armour is nice, which in smaller scale would be something I could see as the next evolution in power armour technology. Not as a "scaled down terminator armour", but an advanced power armour. The looks of it is about what I could see as the next step. It doesn't have a massive back, but more like a power armour. Even the helmet looks like the one used by the power armours, instead of a dog faced protrusion from the chest of the terminator armour.

http://www.miniaturespace.net/images/40K/Grey%20Knights/Grey%20Knights.jpg

It has a collar above the neck joint, so it's secured. Also high on the back (though I think some of that stuff around there is similar to the Librarians psychic hood), but no backpack. I bet the terminator has a better view behind it than the normal GK. There's also plenty of moving armour plates around the hip (which look to be larger than on a normal terminator armour) to protect the joints. I'm not sure of the protective qualities of the shield really, but who knows. I mean, only shot it would block would be one coming from the front to under the left arm. I would think a ball joint to be a better solution. Ball joint all the major joints. Sure, the armour would look stupid(er), but if a pink ribbon in your hair gave you holy protection from death, you'd wear it.

heretics bane
24-08-2008, 16:10
What about some sort of armoured ball joints, instead of the current ones that look like rubber?

Like a scale type of armour? or may thick sheets of the 40k equvilent of kevlar?

Daredhnu
24-08-2008, 17:47
uhm hasn't power armour technology been getting worse and not better?
that's the impression i got anyway from a short story in the 3rd edition marine codex.

the marine in question thinks to himself that his armour hasn't been the same since it was repaired by the techpriests.
in my mind that says they aren't able to make the armour as good as they used to.

maybe i'm wrong though.

so uhm better armour how would it look?

high collar, inbuilt power pack & bolter, interlocking plates (so they slide over each other) for the joints.
that would be a way forward i think.

Spud7
24-08-2008, 18:33
GreyKnight terminator but more angled and lighter, possibly,
(with autocamo)?? look at me in my bright yellow powersuit! **** I have been shot???(Last words for the imperial fist trooper)
But he has a point tech is being lost as it is rediscovered, Jet bikes seen as xeno magics where fielded by space marines.Now in the twilight of the imperium one remains.
Plus the golden throne is broken..!!! The imperium is Deathrolls. What will raise from the ashes only GW know..??!!

Brother Siccarius
24-08-2008, 18:49
uhm hasn't power armour technology been getting worse and not better?
that's the impression i got anyway from a short story in the 3rd edition marine codex.

the marine in question thinks to himself that his armour hasn't been the same since it was repaired by the techpriests.
in my mind that says they aren't able to make the armour as good as they used to.


Yet I could point out a few good examples to prove the opposite.
one of which is Angels of Darkness where a Chaplain thinks at how the techmarines are able to produce improvements as the improved sensors and systems in his new helmet.

Aegis Armor (used by the Grey Knights) is an improvement upon the standard power armor, not just in function but in design.

And power armor, let's not forget, is not a lost science, It's still created as time goes on, Soroitas, Grey Knights, Inquisitors, and other important players in the Imperium have personalized suits made for them, and considering how dangerous their particular jobs are, it's unlikely that ,say, an inquisitor's armor gets passed down after their death very often.

I'm not sure of the protective qualities of the shield really, but who knows. I mean, only shot it would block would be one coming from the front to under the left arm.
It would also go some way to preventing someone simply taking a stab at the armor under the armpit, or slashing at the tendons. About the only way to effectively get to that area with a close attack (with the shield being there) would be reaching under the shield and stabbing upwards, by which time you're already too close for comfort to something with a force weapon. It's a real problem area, because if you take out the tendons in that area (which isn't that tough really as they protrude when doing any sort of flexing with the arm) you have one useless arm. Just from a combat sort of view.

As to blocking the shots, the back part of the area is covered by the pauldron of the armor whenever your arm is even slightly out to the side. It's just a weird design aspect I guess.

MrBigMr
24-08-2008, 18:55
Like a scale type of armour? or may thick sheets of the 40k equvilent of kevlar?
No, something like these arms:
http://magneticdiscovery.com/robot.jpg
Basicly there would be a ball in the joint, armoured and able to move with a great enough range of motion.

Brother Siccarius
24-08-2008, 19:09
No, something like these arms:
http://magneticdiscovery.com/robot.jpg
Basicly there would be a ball in the joint, armoured and able to move with a great enough range of motion.

That may be somewhat limited by the size of the holes needed to fit the arms through, but it still sounds like a good idea.

Iuris
24-08-2008, 19:32
I see the main problem in the fact that the armor is so thick while all the plates are fixed in their position. I noticed that while trying to draw space marines - the more "action" poses become impossible without ignoring the thickness of the armor.

Take your armpit. With inch thick plating on both the chest and the upper arm, to stand at real attention, you'd have to dislocate the shoulder by 2 inches. Impossible. You have to make a cutout that will leave more and more of the armpit open to attack. Of course, the armpit is hard to attack, as it is rather facing inward, but you get the idea. BTW, maybe that's why all the marine pictures show their arms at a 45 degree angle :)

Or, for example, take the rear of the knee. The simplest one. Take two inch thick books, place them on the thigh and the lower leg and see how much of a gap you need to leave to allow a real range of motion. Answer: enough to make attacks against the tendons reality.

The only solution I can see would be some sort of a sliding plate system.

MrBigMr
24-08-2008, 19:33
Well, make the balls bigger. Which is why I said it would look silly (Like Samus from Metroid). But if it's the thing that helps you to keep your limbs, I guess its the lesser of two evils.

PondaNagura
24-08-2008, 21:01
actually the shoulder pads are auto-reactive, so as the arm moves upwards the pad would readjust its position in relation, so as not to jab the guy in the head; or as the bolters are raised to fire, the shoulder lowers in relation. it would be easier to have more plates that shift ala armadillo style, segmented one over the other, however that's more mechanical parts to be included. i think for the shoulders it might be better having the older plate style armor from the termies in HH artbooks. you have the solid shouldpad, with an additional layer that stretches around the top and down longer to partially cover the armpit, can be positioned with a simple swivel to allow movement, with limited auto-reactive...could just be tension springs.

ball joints are great for robots, as they have no muscles or people to work with, the balljoint is the muscle/bones. you could increase the size, but that would also block a marines flanking vision...plus it would kind of herald back to spacehulk scouts with the Empire style poofy fatigues. that or terran marines from starcraft.

also one last thing to remember. visual language. marines have a very distinct style to them, doesn't fit too much with the actual engineering, but rule of Cool space knights is a pervading image for them.

MrBigMr
24-08-2008, 21:14
Well, I find the current shoulder pads to be the worst part of the Marine armour, so it's one of those eye of the beholder type of thingies.

While auto-reactive stuff is all good, even better, one thing to remember is that more moving parts you have and the more complicated the design, the bigger chance there is for something going wrong. No crying once you've been few weeks behind enemy lines and some tiny spring, built by the lowliest of servitors on Forge World Lowest Bidder happens to break down, leading to your entire shoulder locking into one position because the plates wont move out of the way.

PondaNagura
24-08-2008, 21:33
i'm sure they field test these things for quite some time before releasing them, well except for Mk 4, but that was Horus' fault mostly. besides it doesn't have to be spring-based that was an off the top of my head suggestion...could be servo assisted, use counter-weights and slides etc.

edit:
another possible way to avoid getting stabbed in the armpit could be to incorporate an armor overhang connected to the torso plating...then just have a smaller shoulder guard. however it might limit upward armor movement, unless the whole torso plate moves with it. kind of like this:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/admech1.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/redadmech2.jpg

malika
24-08-2008, 22:44
I see the main problem in the fact that the armor is so thick while all the plates are fixed in their position. I noticed that while trying to draw space marines - the more "action" poses become impossible without ignoring the thickness of the armor.

Take your armpit. With inch thick plating on both the chest and the upper arm, to stand at real attention, you'd have to dislocate the shoulder by 2 inches. Impossible. You have to make a cutout that will leave more and more of the armpit open to attack. Of course, the armpit is hard to attack, as it is rather facing inward, but you get the idea. BTW, maybe that's why all the marine pictures show their arms at a 45 degree angle :)

Or, for example, take the rear of the knee. The simplest one. Take two inch thick books, place them on the thigh and the lower leg and see how much of a gap you need to leave to allow a real range of motion. Answer: enough to make attacks against the tendons reality.

The only solution I can see would be some sort of a sliding plate system.

Oh yeah, that problem...the fact that Space Marines wouldn't anatomically fit in their Power Armour (and definitely not in their Terminator Armour) without some serious deformation of their bodies. You might want to check out this discussion (http://anargo-sector.net/community/index.php/topic,292.0.html) on that.

PondaNagura
25-08-2008, 01:14
with exception to the older termies, marines are slightly deformed, or rather modified: they're taller, barrel-chested, broad-shoulders, and don't go completely off of the models for references, nor completely the art.
most marine art is to capture the action of the marine in a grander scale battle...or standalone poses, with a limited stance.
some artistic licensing comes into it as well.

perhaps some comprehensive marine analysis in power armor is necessary for this one...oh yeah don't use the RT era pic, it's downright awful, not too mention going of the traditional human-scaled marines.

let's also assume that the marine armor isn't universally as thick in some areas as others. so that the armor around the under arms, may only be single-layered and 1-2cm thick, where as more exposed areas such as the bicep plating is closer to 2-3cm.

MrBigMr
25-08-2008, 01:40
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/images/art-05.jpg
Doesn't look that out of poportion.

I think that quite often Marines are picted or described doing things that are - at least to me - just way off. When I wathced some DoW2 teaser where a Marine climbs onto a Warboss, I was lost for words on how stupid it looked. Come on. Ok, they guy is big and strong, but so is a bear and you don't see them with the agility of a mouse. Marines should not dodge around and do spinning kicks, but rather use their bodies as battering rams in CC. What the hell do you need a knife for when your arms is like a lead pipe you can use to crack the enemy over the head with.

Even a standard issue military gear (BDU, flak vest, helmet, tactical vest, etc.) is quite restricting, but you far rather take it into battle than nothing. And that's suppose to give away. Ever worn a full plate armour? Your motions are more limited than early 90's game animations. Good protection means limiting mobility.

malika
25-08-2008, 01:44
hmm, just try to fit that figure in the power armour and you'll see what I mean... ;)

MrBigMr
25-08-2008, 02:07
Anything'll fit anywhere, all you need is to apply force.

PondaNagura
25-08-2008, 02:16
that guy is still a novice in comparison to these guys, probably isnt a fully developed or recieved every surgery:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/images/art-06.jpg

here's him being armored later
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/images/art-08.jpg

...though his chest cavity stills seems rather narrow for a space marine

Brother Siccarius
25-08-2008, 03:11
Actually it's odd, you look at some marines and they appear to have smaller arm joints to their chest:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/spacemarines/artwork/images/26-big.jpg
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/spacemarines/artwork/images/28-big.jpg

While others appear to have almost the entirety of the side of their chest armor devoted to the arm joints:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/spacemarines/artwork/images/20-big.jpg
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/spacemarines/artwork/images/18-big.jpg

weissengel86
25-08-2008, 05:56
personally my idea of improved space marine armour would involve the discovery of a stc piece that has designs on better ceramite for example leading to thinner more maneuverable armour not necessarily more protection. One idea people havent mentioned that doesnt really change the armours looks is a better machine spirit. I think the best thing for space marines would be a more advanced and capable machine spirit and HUD giving them superior targeting skills and better tactical data. The ability to call in more precise targeting data for artillery and snipers ability to improve their accuracy with a weapon and geographical data with positions of known enemies and fellow marines could help much more then making them like terminators. I guess visually the helmet would change to reflect the better system

Iuris
25-08-2008, 06:30
You know what? GW NEEDS to make a movie. Really NEEDS it.

Then, some costume designer will take a look at the marines, say to the producer: buddy, this aint gonna work. And design a cool looking power armor that is modified just enough for an actor to actually wear :)

BTW, I've been thinking a bit. Sliding plates might not be as hard to implement and require all that much engineering, plus, they'd make for a more varied structure. I really need some time with a pencil to try some drawings...

DarkAzrael169
25-08-2008, 08:13
A lot of commanders wouldn't wear a helmet that restricts vision because a better view is more important. Besides, if you get hit in the head, chances are your gonna die wth or without a helmet.

Col. Tartleton
25-08-2008, 12:43
What about gothic armor.

Very in line with 40k theme wise, and although quite different from the armor of marines a slimmer more mobile armor with ridges to absorb crush damage and deflect fire. The marine could do away with the auto reactive shoulders and slim down to a more normal look. The armor could actually fit a person if it was reshaped to normal proportions. A sallet helm with bevor would be a step in the right direction from MK8 and a sallets single eyeslit would be more intimidating.

The only problems come from the fact that PA is supposed to be interchangeable between MKs (which is why they haven't changed enough to be considered much better) MK9 should differ in this respect if a suit of high quality is wanted. With the shoulders minimized and heavily ridged the Marine would have to wear the chapter Regalia on his helmet.

malika
25-08-2008, 12:52
Well, Mk1 isn't that interchangeable with the other Mk's, same goes for the helmets of the other Mk's and the Mk8 Power Armour. I like the idea that it's potentially interchangeable, but I also like the idea of some "fundamentally different" design, kind of like how Mk2 and Mk3 are so different from lets say Mk6 and Mk7.

I liked the artwork PondaNagura posted for his AdMech styled Marines, perhaps some elements from that could be taken over, especially the whole chest/shoulder part of the armour

PondaNagura
25-08-2008, 18:08
hmm, marines don't really see through their eye-pieces of the helmets...its optics correct, well in the newer ones, not Mk2-3?
why not just add some kind of solid visor [practical and knightly], with the optics mounted elsewhere on the helmet, and perhaps smaller one on the back. if the optic gets damaged, they tend to remove their helmet anyways. this case they could just tip-up/rip off the visor, rather than expose their whole head. granted i agree a headshot is pretty much a kill shot anyways.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/Mkix_shud.jpg

as for machine spirit, i can see this amongst ironhands, sallies, techie-chapters, but the proposition of a limit machine spirit assisted arm, that operates another weapon, like a combination of a servo arm and the thing on devastator backpacks...hols a pistol, bolter, shouldermounted weaponry, or another HtH arm...would free up another arm for the marine to operate. so he could have a two-handed ranged weapon and a two-handed HtH weapon.



edit:
general gallery of collected sketches...mostly other various projects cobbled together:
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/

malika
25-08-2008, 18:59
Hmm, perhaps the visor could be more like a face-mask. So it might be similar to the existing designs or more like the left one on your art here (http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/?action=view&current=mkix-front.jpg), one of the Chaos Khorne Berzerker helmets has a similar face. The optics device could be located somewhere else with a interface to the helmet, sort of similar to all those funky lights/holograms Iron Man has in his helmet (on the movie).

I would love to see a semi-integrated backpack in the armour, so while it can be separated from the backpack you would have to remove some pieces of the armour which form some sort of case around the lower part of the backpack.

PondaNagura
25-08-2008, 19:23
hmm i might have something like that in some older chaos works. i'll look into it.
eh, lights too grey right now, can't focus a picture of them.

nevermind got 4 visor-like examples uploaded:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/IWIW.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/MoWIW.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/paired.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/PN.jpg

Col. Tartleton
25-08-2008, 22:07
I was thinking streamlining the armor down to a SoB level (obviously still fitting the marine) and making it a bit more military grade looking while highly gothic. So a mix of functionality and artistry. Oh and incorporate the storm bolter arm 1337 thang cuz thats teh shiznit. If they do that, marines can duel wield chainswords and still kill at range for ultimate booyah.

jma037
25-08-2008, 22:42
You fools! The word of the day is MASS PRODUCTION! Make it cheap and make it fast. Lots of backwards compatability and inter changeable modules. Who cares if it's not as mobile as the older ones, if you can pump out ten suits for the same resource as one Mk8. Cut back all the non essential bits. Now...for cheap space marines....

malika
25-08-2008, 22:45
That would be Power Armour for the Imperial Guard then. ;) Space Marines themselves are already very expensive and need to be very mobile because that is the way they operate so making them immobile grunts who are expandable isn't going to work because they need to be mobile to be effective and are too expensive to be expandable.

Besides, Space Marine Power Armour (which is different from other forms of Power Armour) technology in itself is too "rare" and expensive to produce on a gigantic scale.

PondaNagura
26-08-2008, 01:14
cheap marine is an oxymoron.
yeah marine armor is more of small leaps since the GC and HH ended. they work with what they have, or can muster, or with what their techmarines/priests can accomplish.

Aeolian
26-08-2008, 02:50
Remove the reliance on Black Carapace.

Mass produce.

Brother Siccarius
26-08-2008, 06:31
Remove the reliance on Black Carapace.

Mass produce.

there is plenty of power armor out there that doesn't require the black carapace to use. The sisters of battle are living proof of this, and, partially, that it is somewhat mass produced (but then, the Ecclisiarchy can certainly afford to baby it's daughters).

MrBigMr
26-08-2008, 06:57
Cheap Marines?

First of all, gene-seeds are probably worth their weight in the Emperor's tears. Second, what's the point of having them if you choose to throw them away. You're not protecting the just the man, you're also protecting his seeds.
...
That came out wrong.

Marines are not just men with training and gear. They're vessels for the gene-seeds and the longer the Marine survives, the longer the seeds inside him survive. And once the Marine dies, a good armour will keep the seeds as secure as possible and ensure that they might make it even if the Marine doesn't.

weissengel86
26-08-2008, 07:21
marines are so valuable one could probably argue against putting them into combat so often. Since marines are so valuable the priority is probably gear that would keep them from harm and i dont think massive bulky armour is a good idea for the same reason that in reality we dont build "superheavy" tanks and the like. A far more valuable prospect would be to prevent getting hit in the first place therefore maneuverabilty is more valuable than simply piling on the layers of armour. Mk 9 should be thinner and more agile similar to the tau commanders battlesuits.

malika
26-08-2008, 08:47
Remove the reliance on Black Carapace.

Mass produce.

Space Marine Power Armour is actually a totally different thing than SoB Power Armour or other sorts of Power Armour. It's bigger, stronger and is filled with little engines, rotors and what not. The Black Carapace interface is needed for the Marine to move in his Power Armour as if he ain't wearing any armour whatsoever. This means that without the Black Carapace power armour would become less effective, slower, weaker...simply a very bad investment for such a expensive product that needs to be protected.

Aeolian
26-08-2008, 12:54
Space Marine Power Armour is actually a totally different thing than SoB Power Armour or other sorts of Power Armour. It's bigger, stronger and is filled with little engines, rotors and what not. The Black Carapace interface is needed for the Marine to move in his Power Armour as if he ain't wearing any armour whatsoever. This means that without the Black Carapace power armour would become less effective, slower, weaker...simply a very bad investment for such a expensive product that needs to be protected.

:wtf:

We're talking about improving the stuff here. Making effective marine armour without black carapace and no setbacks, not dumbing it down.

MrBigMr
26-08-2008, 13:13
Fluff says that the SoB armour is based on the Marine armour and major differences are the lack of life-support and black carapace. This leads to the fact that the armour won't move with the wearer, but instead the wearer moves the armour themselves, so it's more sluggish than the SM variant. But both offer the same protection and all.


I don't see why we have to give up Black Carapace when it's vital to many SM things and not just the armour. If we didn't put the Carapace on them we'd have to rething many things, or replace it with far cruder implants which would end up serving the same purpose in the end. So a PA without the use of the Black Carapace is pretty useless when the thing is there to begin with.

Aeolian
26-08-2008, 13:45
Are we totally not getting this?

Keep all the good things, get rid of black carapace. It can't really get more simple than that.

Also, this: 'the wearer moves the armour themselves' isn't, by definition, power armour.

PondaNagura
26-08-2008, 17:19
well, you have to move in order for the armor to move, or rather actuate it; it's just the response of movement is more delayed, and actuators don't sink up as quickly. probably has similar actuators to motion and muscle pressure like modern prosthetic.

marine armor is like a second-skin, not only does the armor respond to movement like it's not there, the black carapace reads bio-signatures, pumps stimulants or healing balms, etc. plus i think those bio-sigs are more relevant to monitoring by apothecaries than the actual marine.

part of redesigning the PA would be working with what issues it currently has, usually has to do with power-load outs, protection, etc. and remember to work within universe's perimeters, otherwise thread would just be "let's make power armor".

Brother Siccarius
26-08-2008, 18:27
marines are so valuable one could probably argue against putting them into combat so often. Since marines are so valuable the priority is probably gear that would keep them from harm and i dont think massive bulky armour is a good idea for the same reason that in reality we dont build "superheavy" tanks and the like. A far more valuable prospect would be to prevent getting hit in the first place therefore maneuverabilty is more valuable than simply piling on the layers of armour. Mk 9 should be thinner and more agile similar to the tau commanders battlesuits.

Sure, we don't build superheavy tanks, but that's because you couldn't practically transport a superheavy tank through city streets, not because we don't want to make them. I've also never heard anyone call an Abrams "slim" (it basically looks like an undergunned, small baneblade). I've also never heard anyone call a soldier's body armor "light" or "slimming". :D

Maneuverability only takes you so far in war, because no matter how fast you can maneuver, eventually you're going to get shot at! At that point you want some kind of protection.

Your comparison to Tau commanders is off, a good ways so. Their armor is even bulkier than that of a Space Marine, being much more comparable to a dreadnought than personal armor as the Tau doesn't so much "wear" it as he does "pilot" it (and even then the actual pilot is only located in a, relatively, small section of the suit). It's even more like wearing a walking tank than even Terminator armor gets.


Are we totally not getting this?

Keep all the good things, get rid of black carapace. It can't really get more simple than that.

I don't know what you have against the Black Carapace, as it's one of the best systems for control that I've seen in several sci-fi games/universes. All the Black Carapace does is allow the armor to interface directly with the wearer's nerves within the muscles without actually shutting down the muscle control in doing so (as the Tau battlesuit interface does), leading to a marine who's able ot use both his own strength and the strength of the armor at the same time. The Black Carapace is a good thing, I don't see how you could call it a bad thing. The only reason you'd take the methods you mention is because you wanted to give the marine armor to non-marines, which wouldn't, by any stretch, make them Space Marines as that entitles long years of indoctrination, gene-enhancement, and some level of connection to a primarch, via gene-seed (note: even the cursed founding chapters had some connection to a primarch, though their gene-seed was altered).


Also, this: 'the wearer moves the armour themselves' isn't, by definition, power armour.

You sir, are dead wrong in that assumption. Powered armor can be as little as powered assists within the armor that make it easier to move, which is what is in the Sisters of Battle armor. The Space Marine armor is no different with the exception that they have the black carapace that allows them to directly interface with the armor so that they can move it that way.

Powered armor, by no means, moves itself. It's not robotic, it assists the wearer in movement and actions, not doing it for them.

MrBigMr
26-08-2008, 18:45
Keep all the good things, get rid of black carapace. It can't really get more simple than that.
Black Carapace is a good thing.


Also, this: 'the wearer moves the armour themselves' isn't, by definition, power armour.
In Starship Troopers, the book that gave power armour to the world, the armour's had a smart skin on the inner surface, which reacted to the pressure produced by the wearer. So if you lift your leg, your leg presses against the inner surface and the armour drives the servos to move the big leg.

Marine armour is hooked directly into its nervous system, so when he moves his arms, the signal goed both into his arm as well as the armour's servos. His arm doesn't move the suit, his brain does. So when you take that out, you're down to the actual physical manipulation of the powered armour that supports itself and enhances the movements. It's like steadycam where the system supports the camera, but you have to physically move the camera around.

heretics bane
26-08-2008, 20:31
Are we totally not getting this?

Keep all the good things, get rid of black carapace. It can't really get more simple than that.

Also, this: 'the wearer moves the armour themselves' isn't, by definition, power armour.

But you cant becuase the only reason the good stuff works is because of the black carapace.

Its like saying "i want to take the wieght out of this heavy BMW so its faster" but you end up takeing the main parts of the engine out.:eyebrows:

MrBigMr
26-08-2008, 22:44
Yeah, everyone knows you take out the windows. (http://sattlers.org/mickey/tech/wheels/bmw/1997-318ic/images/bmw-no-windows.jpg) And painting it red doesn't hurt either.

Aeolian
27-08-2008, 14:44
But you cant becuase the only reason the good stuff works is because of the black carapace.

Its like saying "i want to take the wieght out of this heavy BMW so its faster" but you end up takeing the main parts of the engine out.

No, it's like saying 'let's make the BMW go JUST AS FAST but without the heavy engine - let's make a LIGHER, BETTER engine that has equal or better performance than the heavy one, costs less to produce and is easier to drive'.

IE All the benefits none of the limitations. The best improvement to Marine Armour, for me, would be to remove the black carapace but keep the benefits it provides by some other method.

That would allow the armour to be worn, with exactly the same features like brain-controlled motor functions, by anyone. You wouldn't need genetically enhanced, priceless warriors that cost more than a thousand regular soldiers just to create.

My improvement would be, simply, replace black carapace with something better that can be used by anyone, without surgery.

Yeah, it's not going to happen in 40k but logically it's the best possible upgrade.

'oh noes!!!!! that can't happen in 40k because of XYZ'

-Shut up. This is about a hypothetical upgrade to a fictional armour, the mechanics of which change every edition of the game anyway.

Aeolian
27-08-2008, 14:56
The only reason you'd take the methods you mention is because you wanted to give the marine armor to non-marines, which wouldn't, by any stretch, make them Space Marines as that entitles long years of indoctrination, gene-enhancement, and some level of connection to a primarch, via gene-seed (note: even the cursed founding chapters had some connection to a primarch, though their gene-seed was altered).

Er no. This is about armour, not marines. Versatility is more important to effectiveness than pretty much every other variable.

Who cares if it stops being strictly marine armour, if you can equip 100 soldiers for every marine with it - and every soldier has armour equally as good as mk8 marine armour.

malika
27-08-2008, 14:59
IE All the benefits none of the limitations. The best improvement to Marine Armour, for me, would be to remove the black carapace but keep the benefits it provides by some other method.
What is the problem with the black carapace?


That would allow the armour to be worn, with exactly the same features like brain-controlled motor functions, by anyone. You wouldn't need genetically enhanced, priceless warriors that cost more than a thousand regular soldiers just to create.
The Space Marines are good at what they do, they have a specific rule. My idea around this thread revolves around the Mk9 Space Marine Power Armour. Not general Power Armour. So the concept of a cheaper Power Armour that could be worn by the Imperial Guard or cheaper versions of Space Marines in general aren't part of this discussion. ;)

Aeolian
27-08-2008, 15:03
What is the problem with the black carapace?


The Space Marines are good at what they do, they have a specific rule. My idea around this thread revolves around the Mk9 Space Marine Power Armour. Not general Power Armour. So the concept of a cheaper Power Armour that could be worn by the Imperial Guard or cheaper versions of Space Marines in general aren't part of this discussion. ;)

If you remove black carapace you are saving an inifinite amount of money by taking away a lengthy part of an expensive procedure which can kill many applicants.

It would change the face of space marines but it would be better for it.

malika
27-08-2008, 15:18
If you remove black carapace you are saving an inifinite amount of money by taking away a lengthy part of an expensive procedure which can kill many applicants.
This is more a discussion about the use of Space Marines and the question if it wouldn't be better to just stop producing them than discussing how the new variant of Space Marine Power Armour would be. ;) Without the Black Carapace you will need to have a lighter (and weaker) form of power armour which also does not have the various strength enhancers. In the wargame all power armour is the same, but in "reality" Space Marine Power Armour is superior to other forms of Power Armour in every way due to the Black Carapace.

But ok, it seems you are more interested in a discussion about the use of Space Marines and I think you should start a separate thread for that. :)

MrBigMr
27-08-2008, 16:34
Black Carapace is one of the holy implants of the SM creation process and dropping it is pretty much like spitting in the face of the Emperor and having sex with His mother.

Aeolian
27-08-2008, 19:40
This is more a discussion about the use of Space Marines and the question if it wouldn't be better to just stop producing them than discussing how the new variant of Space Marine Power Armour would be. ;) Without the Black Carapace you will need to have a lighter (and weaker) form of power armour which also does not have the various strength enhancers. In the wargame all power armour is the same, but in "reality" Space Marine Power Armour is superior to other forms of Power Armour in every way due to the Black Carapace.

But ok, it seems you are more interested in a discussion about the use of Space Marines and I think you should start a separate thread for that. :)

Why would it be weaker? My whole point is to not compromise existing bonuses at all in any way. :p

PondaNagura
27-08-2008, 20:42
if it isn't broken, then why fix it?
it would be more costly for the imperium to try and figure out a new way of binding marines with their armor,( especially since power armor technology is limited to the know-hows of a few artificers who monopolize what info they can and execute the competition) than to proceed with their current means of implementation.

the black carapace is probably the least cumbersome trial/surgery a marine has to endure..they're unconscious, it grows, becoming symbiotic with them, thus making them stronger and more in-tune with their armor's control, which then makes them faster and more Mobile, and thus more effective.

this is 40k: a grim, dark, regressed, feudal future where bad things happen to good people on a daily basis. people get killed, cut up, modified [with or without consent]...it's wartorn tunnel with no light at the end, because the construction crews got lazy and never finished digging, your headlamps are fading and the big bad monsters chasing you are closing in!

so stop your crying and keep digging!

malika
27-08-2008, 21:45
Again...the discussion was about Space Marine Power Armour, not about the Space Marine's nature, their biology or the potential of spreading Power Armour amongst the Imperial Guard. This discussion is about the creation of the latest update of Space Marine Power Armour.

MrBigMr
27-08-2008, 22:08
I still think thrusters is the way to go. They are Space Marines after all. Would make operating in low-G environments easier. Also, enforced joints could probably make the armour better in high-G environments when there's less stress on the servos and the wearer to support the ever heavier armour. Actual jump packs would be their own attachment, but the thrusters would also add agility to them. Aren't the Imperial back packs now nothing more than landable rocket that doesn't have much mobility in the air? Doesn't the very fluff say they have to land in order to fight? No dynamic entry in the middle of the enemy.

Poseidal
27-08-2008, 22:47
I still think thrusters is the way to go. They are Space Marines after all. Would make operating in low-G environments easier. Also, enforced joints could probably make the armour better in high-G environments when there's less stress on the servos and the wearer to support the ever heavier armour. Actual jump packs would be their own attachment, but the thrusters would also add agility to them. Aren't the Imperial back packs now nothing more than landable rocket that doesn't have much mobility in the air? Doesn't the very fluff say they have to land in order to fight? No dynamic entry in the middle of the enemy.
I thought the backpack already had some limited ability like that for working in 0-G locations? or could that just be in RT?

PondaNagura
27-08-2008, 23:18
hmm, would have to make em less bulky. it's one thing to jump from low orbit onto a battlefield and fight in the big open, it's another trying to fit into buildings, which is kind of difficult for marines anyways, asides from barging through every door.
maybe smaller jump packs, with more jets rather than 2 large ones.

where did the powerpacks are mini jump packs idea come from? those are just exhaust ports, might have some limited 'push' in zero-G situations, but then again a bolter would probably work better.

weissengel86
28-08-2008, 01:25
when i mentioned the tau commander i did not mean the crisis suits. I was referring to the dawn of war version sorry my mistake. Why would getting rid of black carapce be a good thing? that is probably the best invention they have in space marine armour period. When i was talking about maneuverability i also meant speed. If space marine armour implemented features that made them faster that would give them huge benefits. for example a slimmer version with limited boosters like the assault marines

Rylanor
28-08-2008, 02:48
I think that Space Marine armor looks totally beastly. Take a look at the cover of False Gods. I don't know what Mark that is, but I think it's the best looking. As far as improving it's design, I wouldn't really know anything about all that. Plus, it's heresy. I'll leave it to the Emperor and the Omnissiah.

PondaNagura
28-08-2008, 04:03
yeah those are a composite of Mk 3 helms, with Mk4 armor, and Mk5 studded shoulders.
aside from mobility from mini-jumppacks and extra armor, what about some kind of shield generator? like a toned down iron halo or rosarius...storm shields are great for soaking up a lot of firepower, but it takes a handful, and i wouldn't fully trust wrist mounting with something that large and cumbersome. or maybe incorporate mini combat shields, with other-mounted (forearm, shoulder, etc) guns and blades.

MrBigMr
28-08-2008, 04:13
Refractor Field? If they're good enough to be passed around to Guard Officers and the Inquisition (and I'm willing to be there's more of them around than Marines), why not Marines as well?

And the Tau commander suit from DoW is still quite big. Nothing like Shadowsun's. I've seen a model of it and it's closer to an XV8 in size. Besides, think about it. It takes a big, armoured robot suit (the pilot sits in the chest) to give you a good save and enhanced durability and strength, where as a Marine has much of that in a (super)man sized package. That's pretty superior to me.

weissengel86
28-08-2008, 04:34
in DoW he was no bigger then a space marine and his armour wasnt as seemingly bulky as current space marine armour appears. Actually how big space marine armour is and how even IG officers have one it seems odd that all space marines dont have a refractor field. I think mini jumpacks would be a great idea it could give an immediate burst in speed and unlike assault marines only needs to last for a second or two

edit: i still maintain that mk9 armour should be fluffwise a discovery of a stc remnant of superior materials (ie ceramite) so that Space marine armour would have the same protection just in a smaller package

PondaNagura
28-08-2008, 04:43
yeah the newer tau commanders are supposed to be like the tau's TDA equivalents...fitting the firepower and armor of a battlesuit in something smaller, and worn,rather than piloted.

as for refractor fields, eh i don't know. it kind of randomly teleports you away (but not into things), so i'd imagine the whole experience being disorienting, and would probably drop a marines readiness in combat [would be like dropping their initiative in game, or reducing it to 1 next assault phase], it would be just more training for marines to have.

Brother Siccarius
28-08-2008, 06:32
in DoW he was no bigger then a space marine and his armour wasnt as seemingly bulky as current space marine armour appears. Actually how big space marine armour is and how even IG officers have one it seems odd that all space marines dont have a refractor field. I think mini jumpacks would be a great idea it could give an immediate burst in speed and unlike assault marines only needs to last for a second or two

edit: i still maintain that mk9 armour should be fluffwise a discovery of a stc remnant of superior materials (ie ceramite) so that Space marine armour would have the same protection just in a smaller package


Refractor Field? If they're good enough to be passed around to Guard Officers and the Inquisition (and I'm willing to be there's more of them around than Marines), why not Marines as well?

It's still incredibly rare, even though some (high ranking) officers sometimes may have some.


as for refractor fields, eh i don't know. it kind of randomly teleports you away (but not into things), so i'd imagine the whole experience being disorienting, and would probably drop a marines readiness in combat [would be like dropping their initiative in game, or reducing it to 1 next assault phase], it would be just more training for marines to have.

Displacer fields, it's not very good for giving to line infantry. Having your army popping around the battlefield with no rhyme or reason isn't very good for tactics or fighting a combat. The other type of refractor field known just puts a protective bubble over the wearer.

aim
28-08-2008, 11:37
where did the powerpacks are mini jump packs idea come from? those are just exhaust ports, might have some limited 'push' in zero-G situations, but then again a bolter would probably work better.

Imperial Armour 3 - "The nozzles on the marines backpack are exhaust ports for the reactor contained inside, they also double as limited manouvering thrusters in zero gravity environments."

malika
28-08-2008, 11:44
As far as improving it's design, I wouldn't really know anything about all that. Plus, it's heresy. I'll leave it to the Emperor and the Omnissiah.
There has been technological innovation in the Imperium, just look at the various different Mk's of Power Armour, tanks, new space ships and so on. It does happen, it's just that GW is trying to create a setting where nothing changes while in reality it does.


edit: i still maintain that mk9 armour should be fluffwise a discovery of a stc remnant of superior materials (ie ceramite) so that Space marine armour would have the same protection just in a smaller package
Space Marine Power Armour has nothing to do with the STC's. These things were created during the Dark Age of Technology while Power Armour, Bolters and such things were created by the Emperor around the time of the Unification Wars on Terra, improvements of this technology has happened over the years. The Mk8 being created somewhere around M40/M41. So this means there isn't a reason preventing the Mk9 from being made in this case. :)

Norminator
28-08-2008, 15:31
Space Marine Power Armour has nothing to do with the STC's. These things were created during the Dark Age of Technology while Power Armour, Bolters and such things were created by the Emperor around the time of the Unification Wars on Terra, improvements of this technology has happened over the years. The Mk8 being created somewhere around M40/M41. So this means there isn't a reason preventing the Mk9 from being made in this case. :)

I wouldn't be too sure. Genetically engineered space marines are certainuly unification wars, but powered armour of some form is STC. The Horus Heresy novels mention the Luna Wolves going against a human civilisation with a (rumoured) intact STC device, and they have a type of power armour (Loken mentions how, despite it being very similar to the marines, they don't compare because they haven't got the advanced physiology). It even goes as to mention how bizarre if felt to fight what appeared as other marines (in an obvious foreshadowing of the later heresy).

PondaNagura
28-08-2008, 15:44
yeah that was one instance in one novel, normally i take the HH as canon, but there are a few quirks in the early books that are off, though it's also later hinted at in descent of Angels. whether that's a legit fluff rewrite or just an escalated goof-up, i don't know.

however power armor was a product of the Dark Age of Technology, though not necessarily universally STC based. power armor as we know it was the product of actual innovation on the part of the mechanicus and terran scientists during the great crusade.

Norminator
28-08-2008, 15:49
yeah that was one instance in one novel, normally i take the HH as canon, but there are a few quirks in the early books that are off, though it's also later hinted at in descent of Angels. whether that's a legit fluff rewrite or just an escalated goof-up, i don't know.

however power armor was a product of the Dark Age of Technology, though not necessarily universally STC based. power armor as we know it was the product of actual innovation on the part of the mechanicus and terran scientists during the great crusade.

I suppose that some form of convergent design is not out of the question. If it worked well enough for an STC to be made out of it, there's no reason that when the Emperor designed his armour he then followed the same route (either from memory of past technology or just simply because he knew it was as good) without actually using STC designs.

PondaNagura
28-08-2008, 16:04
thunder armor, Mk1, was commonplace amongst the techno barbarian tribes of earth, the emperor just boosted this by adding the heavy gen-modifications, and probably better materials, with his vast knowledge, being several eons old.
i'll post more sketches in a bit

Wolflord Havoc
28-08-2008, 16:32
Okay I am going to view this questions with regards to available parts from the model range! Something I considered doing to create 'Artificer Armor'.

First of all I am going to use the Legs from the plastic Terminator set.

Then I 'was' going to use the terminator body and mk6/7 helemt and arms but I feel this would look silly - so it has to be the Mk 8 Errant Armour body and Mk 7 or 5 (corvus) Helmet. I would then use the Terminator arms and shoulder pad (probably the death watch ones).

It would give the impression of heavier armor but not as bulky as the terminator suits.

In my minds eye this suit has a Terminator Thunderhammer and a Terminator Storm Bolter.

The backpack would have to be one from the SM Commaders Plastic set or something like the Space Wolf Sprue one as I think a standard backpack would look lost!

malika
28-08-2008, 19:04
I wouldn't be too sure. Genetically engineered space marines are certainuly unification wars, but powered armour of some form is STC. The Horus Heresy novels mention the Luna Wolves going against a human civilisation with a (rumoured) intact STC device, and they have a type of power armour (Loken mentions how, despite it being very similar to the marines, they don't compare because they haven't got the advanced physiology). It even goes as to mention how bizarre if felt to fight what appeared as other marines (in an obvious foreshadowing of the later heresy).
They see figures in Power Armour, that doesn't mean a thing. The Sisters of Battle wear Power Armour too and their design is very different. And besides that, it would be very possible that that human civilisation created the Power Armour themselves. Just because you have an STC doesn't mean you can't create something without it. ;)


I suppose that some form of convergent design is not out of the question. If it worked well enough for an STC to be made out of it, there's no reason that when the Emperor designed his armour he then followed the same route (either from memory of past technology or just simply because he knew it was as good) without actually using STC designs.
What the Emperor did would be considered tech-heresy by the Adeptus Mechanicus (who believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah) if somebody else did that. I assume that the Emperor and his buddies took the Power Armour they used during the Unification Wars (which may or may not be STC technology) and change it to their own needs. Mk9 Power Armour would be nothing more but a continuation upon this.

@Wolflord Havoc: A picture can say more than a thousand words! :) Show us your models when you finish them, I'm quite curious! :)

heretics bane
28-08-2008, 19:52
No, it's like saying 'let's make the BMW go JUST AS FAST but without the heavy engine - let's make a LIGHER, BETTER engine that has equal or better performance than the heavy one, costs less to produce and is easier to drive'.

IE All the benefits none of the limitations. The best improvement to Marine Armour, for me, would be to remove the black carapace but keep the benefits it provides by some other method.

That would allow the armour to be worn, with exactly the same features like brain-controlled motor functions, by anyone. You wouldn't need genetically enhanced, priceless warriors that cost more than a thousand regular soldiers just to create.

My improvement would be, simply, replace black carapace with something better that can be used by anyone, without surgery.

Yeah, it's not going to happen in 40k but logically it's the best possible upgrade.

'oh noes!!!!! that can't happen in 40k because of XYZ'

-Shut up. This is about a hypothetical upgrade to a fictional armour, the mechanics of which change every edition of the game anyway.

:wtf: but the point is that the parts of the engine that make it fast are removed to make it light *hint* there crucial to its function!

And dont tell me to shut up, im talking in the logic of 40k if we where to follow your way,next week it would be "lets make ALL the space marine organs really CHEAP and give them to every guards man!"...........:eyebrows:

PondaNagura
28-08-2008, 20:49
a few more sketches
these two are profile/back drawings of work in progress bulky-looking mini-jump pack:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/MJPprofile.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/minijumppackback.jpg

this is something i worked on a year ago, as a count-as eldar jetbike (to fill in the gap as my ideal what-if squats), but i just realized it had some relations to what we were proposing:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/Razrhaghul/space%20marines/Mk9-%20related%20sketches/yetbike.jpg

malika
29-08-2008, 01:09
Hmm, perhaps when looking at it like that the Mk9 Power Armour could be a variant for Assault Squads, meaning that the armour and backpack are more adapted for speed, jumping and all that sort of thing.

While technological advancement does exist in the Imperium we should not forget that it does remain a very dogmatic thing. Space Marines will not throw the Codex Astartes out of the window (en mass). So while this variant of the armour could redefine a certain unit it does not mean it would and should alter the entire concept of the Space Marines, their biology, organisation and culture.

In this case the Mk9 armour could be an improvement for Assault Squads, enabling to actually fight while flying/hoovering.

PondaNagura
29-08-2008, 01:39
i would see Mk9 changes like we see improvements to existing vehicles, something one or two chapters pickup in battle, or through innovations of high-level artificers, that are then adapted by other chapters later. in this case could be BA, WS, RG oriented...

Wolflord Havoc
29-08-2008, 16:42
@Wolflord Havoc: A picture can say more than a thousand words! :) Show us your models when you finish them, I'm quite curious! :)

Right O - I have added it too my list. :p

It will be done some time in 2010 :angel:

StarshipBOb
30-08-2008, 01:13
As a joke I just photoshopped a Kasrkin's head onto a Marine Chaplain. I'm actually surprised at how well (if cookie cutter sci fi) it looks. I think the Space Marines are over due for a helmet upgrade anyway.

HK-47
30-08-2008, 05:26
Hmm, perhaps when looking at it like that the Mk9 Power Armour could be a variant for Assault Squads, meaning that the armour and backpack are more adapted for speed, jumping and all that sort of thing.

While technological advancement does exist in the Imperium we should not forget that it does remain a very dogmatic thing. Space Marines will not throw the Codex Astartes out of the window (en mass). So while this variant of the armour could redefine a certain unit it does not mean it would and should alter the entire concept of the Space Marines, their biology, organisation and culture.

In this case the Mk9 armour could be an improvement for Assault Squads, enabling to actually fight while flying/hoovering.

Well having a power mark that was made prominently of one kind of combat is nothing new. If I remember correctly Mark 3 style armour was meant for siege style warfare, so having a mew mark built for speed is not out of the question. IMO, the future of power armour is (for tactical squads anyway) a more generalized version of the Aegis worn by Grey Knights. Generalized in that GK's fight mostly followers of chaos, and therefore fight in an armour that is specialized for that threat, Space Marines on the other hand deal with a wider range of threats so need an armour system that can deal with such threats.

Outlaw289
30-08-2008, 06:05
My other idea was to try and make the armour a lot more lighter, smaller but offer the same amount of protection. That could make it easier to mass produce but that's just my shot at it.

How would miniaturizing a product of equal performance make it cheaper :rolleyes:

Brother Siccarius
30-08-2008, 07:15
I wouldn't be too sure. Genetically engineered space marines are certainuly unification wars, but powered armour of some form is STC. The Horus Heresy novels mention the Luna Wolves going against a human civilisation with a (rumoured) intact STC device, and they have a type of power armour (Loken mentions how, despite it being very similar to the marines, they don't compare because they haven't got the advanced physiology). It even goes as to mention how bizarre if felt to fight what appeared as other marines (in an obvious foreshadowing of the later heresy).

Yeah, but in that novel their Power armor was different. Considering that they had a fully functioning STC, they could have asked it for designs for powered armor suits, and gotten something similar in function but not in design or style.

Powered Armor was being built up through the crusade without the benefit of STC, otherwise you'd just ask the STC for power armor and get some designs along the lines of what they had in the book you mentioned, without going through the design and testing processes that the Imperium went through to build power and terminator armor.