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Genrazn
23-08-2008, 10:17
Do you get to use spears if you get rear or flank charged. Or other weapon bonsues?

Lennart.nevanoja
23-08-2008, 10:56
Hello

i think that you don't get too use the spears because you don't get too use your spears when you get charged i the flank and it is hard too get all the spears over in case you do get charged.


Cheers

Genrazn
23-08-2008, 10:58
It would be nice if you have page references. THe only thing I found that doesnt get a bonus is hand weapon and shield you dont get a +1 AS if you get flanked or reared. In the weapons section.

Braad
23-08-2008, 13:21
Spears only fight in two ranks when attacked in the front and not on the turn they charge. See page 55. 'Fight in ranks' section. Same goes for pikes, or elves striking in three ranks.

Hand weapon and shield also only give a bonus to the front, as written on page 56.

Other than that, I can't think of anything that has a different effect to flank or rear as opposed to the front. Great weapons give their +2S as normal, etc. If something does not say "to the front only" it also works to the flank or rear.

TheWarSmith
23-08-2008, 15:58
spears DO fight in ranks when they charge. You simply subract 1 from the # of ranks fighting, which in almost all cases ends up just being the front row. Unless they changed it from 6th, I believe high elves can charge and attack with 2 ranks.

isidril93
23-08-2008, 16:01
spears DO fight in ranks when they charge. You simply subract 1 from the # of ranks fighting, which in almost all cases ends up just being the front row. Unless they changed it from 6th, I believe high elves can charge and attack with 2 ranks.

elves still fight in 2 ranks when they charge so you got it right.

gaiaterra
23-08-2008, 16:13
If you opponent is standing behind a wall or barricade, elves get to fight in 3 ranks when they charge as you dont count as charging when chrging into a wall or barricade, and you will of course go first because your an elf.

T10
23-08-2008, 17:40
Not so.

Though the High Elves gain no bonus from charging they still count as having moved and thus fight with one rank less than normal (i.e. 2 ranks rather than 3).

-T10

Braad
23-08-2008, 20:18
Indeed, the rule doesn't mention charging, it just says substract 1 rank if the unit moved that turn. (Yes, I'm up to date too, now!)

gaiaterra
23-08-2008, 21:11
Damn those lying little elf players, I knew something didn't sound quite right. Time to plot revenge

narrativium
25-08-2008, 00:19
Can you choose to stand and shoot when being charged in the flank or rear?

Nurgling Chieftain
25-08-2008, 03:47
Well, you can't actually shoot if they charge you in the rear, so would that be any different from declaring hold? (A flank charge can potentially be shot at so I'm not going to address it.)

SolarHammer
25-08-2008, 04:18
Actually, even a rear charge could potentially be stand and shot at if they are a huge unit of skirmishers.

Nedar
25-08-2008, 05:52
You can never stand and shoot when being rear charged, and rarely when flank (and never will all models get to shoot). You have to be able to see your target to shoot it, and if they are behind you you cant see them, and if they are in the flank mabie a few extra models that in the front arc can be shot by the endmost models.

And if a unit is skirmished it wont be a rear charge. Fast cavalry cant see behind them, just shoot in their shooting phase.

You still count as charging a defended obstacle, but you lose all bonuses (spear/lance, going first, etc). So bonk that shady elf on the head next time you see him for me :D

Nurgling Chieftain
25-08-2008, 08:07
Actually, even a rear charge could potentially be stand and shot at if they are a huge unit of skirmishers....Yeah, I guess that is possible, at least in theory. :skull:

Condottiere
25-08-2008, 08:32
Skirmishers have no flank or rear before entering close combat, and after that, shooting is no longer an option.

Atrahasis
25-08-2008, 09:37
You misunderstand, Condottieri.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3250/funnysasqk2.png

Orange is charging Blue.

Condottiere
25-08-2008, 10:43
You're right, if this diagram is the subject of the discussion. Did some posts get deleted? However, I was throwing in my two cents on the three previous posts to mine.

Atrahasis
25-08-2008, 10:48
The "they" in SolarHammer's post refers to the chargers, not the charged.

Dark_Mage99
25-08-2008, 15:59
The "they" in SolarHammer's post refers to the chargers, not the charged.

No it doesn't. He's pointing out that a unit of skirmishers could stand and shoot at a unit charging from behind them.

Atrahasis
25-08-2008, 17:34
Given that it makes no sense to read it that way, I'm unsurprised that you chose to do so.

Dark_Mage99
25-08-2008, 18:57
You must have misread the last few posts Atrahasis.


Can you choose to stand and shoot when being charged in the flank or rear?



Actually, even a rear charge could potentially be stand and shot at if they are a huge unit of skirmishers.

If a unit wants to stand and shoot, it makes absolutely no difference whether the charging unit is skirmishing or not.

On the other hand, if the charged unit is skirmishing, it has 360 sight and thus can stand and shoot despite the charging unit coming from behind - which is what SolarHammer was pointing out when narrativium asked if you can stand and shoot when charged in the rear.

Nurgling Chieftain
25-08-2008, 21:00
SolarHammer's post was addressed to me (as a correction to a mistake in my post), and I understood it as Atrahasis kindly illustrated -> it is, in fact, possible for a (ranked) unit to be charged in the rear (by skirmishers) and still get to stand-and-shoot at them.

The very idea of charging unengaged skirmishers "in the rear" is nonsensical - they don't have a rear.

Revlid
25-08-2008, 22:14
You must have misread the last few posts Atrahasis.

I'm afraid you entirely misunderstand.

What everyone is saying is that, if the Skirmishing unit (which is charging) is large enough to be both within the target's Line of Sight and mostly in the Rear-Charge Arc, they can be Stood-and-Shot at despite charging in the rear.

Condottiere
25-08-2008, 22:26
As I understand the rules, the charged unit cannot stand and shoot unless all of it's models have a view of of the attackers.

Nurgling Chieftain
25-08-2008, 22:33
I've never heard that before. Where'd you read it?

Mireadur
25-08-2008, 23:09
You sure in that example skirmishers would be farther than half charge distance to being shot at? :p

About the stand and shoot ive just noticed theres zero specific refereces to how the reaction would be done so we should suppose it just follows the normal LoS rules for shooting (i.e: just the models with LoS would shoot)

Nurgling Chieftain
25-08-2008, 23:41
You sure in that example skirmishers would be farther than half charge distance to being shot at? :pPistols. (Or handbows!) :D

Dark_Mage99
26-08-2008, 00:55
Ah, I see.

I never considered such a formation happening in a battle - hence my believing that the skirmishers were the charged... should have paid more attention to the diagram!

alextroy
26-08-2008, 02:28
Can you choose to stand and shoot when being charged in the flank or rear?

Yes, but generally it has no effect and changes to a Hold reaction since you cannot see a unit in your flank or rear and most units cannot shoot at units they cannot see.

As for exceptions, I have one word: Treeman.

Condottiere
26-08-2008, 02:35
I've never heard that before. Where'd you read it?
As far as I know, the rules go like this:
If the enemy charges from under half their charge range, you don't get S&S.
If the enemy charges from further away than half their charge range, you do get to S&S. Nothing more, nothing less
Then, they fire their guns as soon as all models can shoot. It does NOT matter how far the unit is at that moment, even if they are only 1" away, if the charge started over half their movement away, they can shoot. They already saw them coming, shouldered their guns or armed their crossbows, and at the right moment the boss shouts "FIRE!".
The only way out of this, which was mentioned above, is when you reach the unit before all models in the charged unit can shoot, which only happens with a very long unit, or if the unit is curved around a rock or so.

Concerning the skirmish thing, it is the length of the charge that matters, so nothing with closest skirmisher but the lenght of the path they have to go before they reach their first skirmisher.
Otherwise, if I'm standing right next (much less then half charge range) to a unit of skirmishers, but I would need a big turn (of way more then half my charge range) to get to them, the skirmishers wouldn't be able to shoot, even though the charger has to move a long way and they have plenty of time to react with some arrows. So that's silly. Charge distance counts, not straight distance to target.
Are you saying that I can't S&S a infantry regiment 5x1 5" away from my 20 model 20x1 crossbow regiment?:confused:

If the infantry have M:4 then half their charge is 4.

5" is therefore more than half their charge move and you can S&S as long as the all the shooters are in range of the chargers.

If one or more of the crossbows on the end of the line is out of range then you can't S&S.


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