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View Full Version : How easy are thease 3 units to shoot?



Conotor
23-08-2008, 22:31
Terradons, Salamanders, and Jungle Swarms are all skirmishers, but all have 40 mm bases. So does shooting directed at them get a -1 to hit penalty?

Terradons are US1. Does that make them count as man sized despite 40mm bases?

Salamanders have man-sized skinks in their unit.

Jungle swarms have a "Small" rule that seams to involve lots of words hinting that they might possibly be defined as man sized.

theunwantedbeing
23-08-2008, 22:36
Unit strength 1 skirmishers are -1 to hit
Unit strength anything else are not.

Conotor
23-08-2008, 22:48
Unit strength 1 skirmishers are -1 to hit
Unit strength anything else are not.

Ok, so that just leaves salamanders, who are both US 1 and 3...

fubukii
23-08-2008, 23:31
terradons are us1 skirmishers as flying units follow the rules for skirmishers.

Salamaders would not be -1 to hit nor would swarms.

Ethos
24-08-2008, 01:51
Wouldn't you allocate between Salamanders and Skinks? Or perhaps simply declare which one you're going to shoot at?

Conotor
24-08-2008, 03:11
Wouldn't you allocate between Salamanders and Skinks? Or perhaps simply declare which one you're going to shoot at?

Hits are randomized, 5-6 on sallies. Normally you randomize after you roll to hit.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-08-2008, 04:40
Wouldn't you allocate between Salamanders and Skinks? Or perhaps simply declare which one you're going to shoot at?

No, you shoot at the unit, then randomise. And the unit doesn't fulfil the requirements to get the -1 to hit unless all the salamanders are already dead.

English 2000
24-08-2008, 04:45
Swarms - US>1 Therefore no -1
Sallies - US>1 Therefore no -1
Terradons - 40mm base. Therefore no -1.

Reading the "to hit modifiers" table on Page 28 of the BRB, one might be inclined to argue that perhaps flyers are -1 to hit as it doesn't specify "man-sized on foot".

However Page 67 of the BRB clearly states that you have to be "man sized" to benefit from the -1 to hit.

You cannot argue that Terradons are man-sized (due to being US 1) as per Page 71 of the BRB - The Unit Strength Chart clearly states that man-sized is mounted on a 20/25mm base and is on foot. Terradons are on 40mm bases and a skink riding a winged dinosaur is certainly not on foot.

The criteria are man-sized AND US 1.
None of the above units satisfies BOTH criteria, so none benefit from the -1 to hit penalty.

Unless there is something in the Lizardman army book that states these units are at -1 to hit, they do not benefit from that particular part of the skirmisher rules.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-08-2008, 05:02
The criteria are man-sized AND US 1.

You should take a look at the FAQ/errata for the main rulebook. All references to man-sized are to be changed to US1.

Man-sized is a relic left over form 6th where they introduced US, the only requirement in 7th is that you are US 1.

English 2000
24-08-2008, 05:14
All references to man-sized are to be changed to US1.

Heh, so they are. I guess I've been playing that one wrong for a while then. I suppose I should have known better than to rely on a BRB for the proper rules!!

You're the first person to mention that it changed with the Eratta - Thank you Gorbad (Morglum Necksnapper is still the coolest Orc ever though :P )

My fell bats just got much better!

Conotor
24-08-2008, 12:39
Ok, thanks. I guess terradons and swarms are done now, but although everyone seams to agree that salamanders don't get -1 to be hit, i do not understand why. Half their unit is US1.

Lord Aries
24-08-2008, 14:09
The WHOLE unit needs to be US-1... they are not.

Conotor
24-08-2008, 16:38
The WHOLE unit needs to be US-1... they are not.

Where does it say this? If a monster joins a unit, is the whole unit immune to killing blow then?

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-08-2008, 16:44
Is the unit US 1 if parts of it isn't? Remember, the unit is all the models in it. If some of them are not US 1, obviously the unit can't be US 1, and so can't qualify for the modifier.

And your welcome English, there are a number of changes in that document that are good to know.

DarkTerror
24-08-2008, 20:25
Where does it say this? If a monster joins a unit, is the whole unit immune to killing blow then?

For shooting Conotor. Hitting your target happens before randomizing. Killing blow is not the same.

Spirit
25-08-2008, 15:45
What happens with vampire bat swarms?

They are US1 flyers with a special rule that makes them US3.

Atrahasis
25-08-2008, 16:56
Then they aren't US1 flyers...

English 2000
25-08-2008, 23:18
Bat Swarms - not -1 since they're US 3 (or more) - can't be bothered to go get my book

Fell Bats - US 1 so -1
Terradons - US 1 so -1
Lizard Swarms - US>1 so no -1
Salamanders - US mixed w/ US>1 so no -1

Are war hawk riders US 1 or 2?

TheWarSmith
26-08-2008, 03:06
English, flyers always trumped the base size rule.

Tzeentch screamers have and always were -1 to hit.

Conotor
29-08-2008, 17:21
Salamanders - US mixed w/ US>1 so no -1


I still do not understand how being US 3 trumps being US 1....

Nedar
29-08-2008, 18:17
The rule is if you are shooting at a unit of skirmishers that are US 1, a salamander unit is not a skirmishing unit with US 1. Simple.

@ English - Warhawk riders are US 2 because of the Flying Cavalry special rules, which also gives them the mounted +1 to AS.

English 2000
29-08-2008, 23:11
English, flyers always trumped the base size rule.

How? Your argument directly contradicts the BRB. The FAQ changed the rule, it didn't start out that way.

English 2000
29-08-2008, 23:14
I still do not understand how being US 3 trumps being US 1....

Erm, simple. As per the FAQ changes the unit must be US 1. You have models with two different unit strengths so they lose the bonus of being -1 to hit because they're running around with giant dinos beside them.

Mireadur
02-09-2008, 17:45
sorry to reopen this, but we all agreed terradons got -1 to being hit for being a unit of fliers (US1) but in their specials rules it specifies: ''Mounted. Skinks riding terradons get a 6+ armour save''

didnt they introduce the concept of mounted cavalry with the bretonnian pegasus knights and LM book is older?

Doctor Know
02-09-2008, 19:09
How? Your argument directly contradicts the BRB. The FAQ changed the rule, it didn't start out that way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here;

"Models in a unit of flyers always have a unit strength of 1." Page 69, BfSP book, under the heading "Units of Flyers".

"Flying Cavalry" are noted on the same page as having unit strength 2 (Brettonian Pegasus knights are used as an example), but the rule in the book does not retroactively extend "Flying Cavalry" status to all models which are, as a matter of in-game reality, flying cavalry. What qualifies as "flying cavalry" is a bit of a problem, for example, a vampire mounted on a hellsteed; single wound, flying mount: flying cavalry or no?

Mireadur
02-09-2008, 21:29
im getting exactly there. While in 1 rule it says is a mounted unit (us2) in the next one just says flyers (US1) it appears to be a misstyping.

English 2000
02-09-2008, 22:33
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here;

"Models in a unit of flyers always have a unit strength of 1." Page 69, BfSP book, under the heading "Units of Flyers".

"Flying Cavalry" are noted on the same page as having unit strength 2 (Brettonian Pegasus knights are used as an example), but the rule in the book does not retroactively extend "Flying Cavalry" status to all models which are, as a matter of in-game reality, flying cavalry. What qualifies as "flying cavalry" is a bit of a problem, for example, a vampire mounted on a hellsteed; single wound, flying mount: flying cavalry or no?

What I'm getting at is that as per the BRB teradons were NOT get -1 to shoot at. AFTER the faq they ARE -1 to shoot at.

You may be misreading parts of the thread and consufing discussions about flyers and flying cavalry. Flying cavalry were NEVER -1 to shoot at because by definition (pre FAQ and post FAQ) US2 was never man-sized or US1. Flying cavalry are defined as flying cavalry in their respective army books. I would think that unless a unit is listed as "flying cavalry" it will be listed as "flyers" instead.

I loaned my VC book out so I can't definitively answer the vampire on hellsteed question and will leave it for someone else.

Doctor Know
03-09-2008, 03:21
What I'm getting at is that as per the BRB teradons were NOT get -1 to shoot at. AFTER the faq they ARE -1 to shoot at.

I'm still not seeing your point; you seem to be hung up on a distinction without merit, the change you are referencing is errata, that is, printing correction, not substantive rules change. Per the BRB teradons are -1 to shoot at; if your book indicates otherwise it is of the same order of importance as if it had a printing error that, for example, listed ogres as US 8 (instead of 3).


You may be misreading parts of the thread and consufing discussions about flyers and flying cavalry. Flying cavalry were NEVER -1 to shoot at because by definition (pre FAQ and post FAQ) US2 was never man-sized or US1. Flying cavalry are defined as flying cavalry in their respective army books. I would think that unless a unit is listed as "flying cavalry" it will be listed as "flyers" instead.

I loaned my VC book out so I can't definitively answer the vampire on hellsteed question and will leave it for someone else.

You're, missing my point; I was pointing out the location of the rules for flying cavalry, not expressing uncertainty in what they entail.

The Hellsteed question is problematic precisely because it does not have the flying cavalry rule; despite the fact that it is both a flyer (by explicit mention) and cavalry (according to the rules given on page 7, BfSP).

English 2000
03-09-2008, 23:14
I'm still not seeing your point


The point was originally directed at TheWarSmith not you Doctor Know, which incidentally does have merit to some people so please keep your derisive comments to yourself.

He suggested that terradons were always -1 to hit, I said no, only after the faq changed what is printed in the first versions of the BRB did they become -1 to hit. I don't think I can make it any clearer, so if you still don't get it don't bother responding, that way we can stop this from becoming a trolling thread.

Benigno (WE)
04-09-2008, 06:33
Do the 'flying cavalry' gets the -1 to hit for skirmisher then? I mean, Pegasus Cavalry and Warhawk Riders and such.

T10
04-09-2008, 07:12
The rulebook does not take into address the situation.

The Salamanders form a unit of skirmishers with a mix of unit strength, however, so the issue needs to be resolved: There is either a -1 to hit or there is not.

A single Salamander is at +0 to hit, a single Skink handler is at -1 to hit. Add them together and they present a larger unit.

The most reasonable assumption is that the larger Salamander model determine the modifier for the unit.

-T10

Condottiere
04-09-2008, 07:49
On a logical basis, I'd have to say that any skirmishing unit with a model that's larger than US1 can't benefit from the -1 bonus to hit. It might be able to move freely, but everyone can see and predict it's movements.

Urgat
04-09-2008, 08:32
And now, to ask, again, why can't they simply put such info (unit US) in the army books? You know, along base sizes and such?
...

T10
04-09-2008, 13:36
From time to time they do. Bat Swarms, Spirit Swarms, Dwarf Lord on Shield Bearers.

You can't say they never do...

-T10

Shamfrit
04-09-2008, 14:39
Do the 'flying cavalry' gets the -1 to hit for skirmisher then? I mean, Pegasus Cavalry and Warhawk Riders and such.

No, because Warhawk Riders and Pegasus Cavalry are US1>, being US2 alone means they're not -1 to hit, regardless of the respective rules for Flying Cavalry and Skirmisher.

Fellbats however are US1, and thus, they get the modifier, which is very interesting for me indeed. :evilgrin:

Mireadur
04-09-2008, 17:07
where is it mentioned terradons are US1 other than having the ''flying'' rule? (at the same time they are ''mounted'' though). Unless someone can help me i just got totally dubious about the terradons!

Benigno (WE)
04-09-2008, 17:26
No, because Warhawk Riders and Pegasus Cavalry are US1>, being US2 alone means they're not -1 to hit, regardless of the respective rules for Flying Cavalry and Skirmisher.

Fellbats however are US1, and thus, they get the modifier, which is very interesting for me indeed. :evilgrin:
QFT yes you are right.